Criticizing the Critics

[deangold]

Must screech and fling poo!" 

I have been debating whether to recount this story or not, and your humorous addition had made me do it....

A few weeks after we opened, we experienced a mechanical problem at the restaurant. The result was that the dining room was hot and smokey. Kay and I made sure we visited every table to appologize for the conditions. We explained that we had a mecanical problem with our ventilation system, that the restaurant was not up to its usual standards etc. We told waiters that we would comp anything for any customer who complained, no questions asked. Over the time affected, we in fact did comp several tables and a huge number of desserts etc.

A couple of days after the problem was resolved, I recieved an e-mail. The customer was livid. He described my wife having gone to the table and asked how everything was as if everything was normal. He said in light of a mechanical breakdown, we should have not just acted as if everything was normal. He made threatening noises about how he would tell people how badly he was treated. He told me he was in the customer service industry and how important word of mouth was. I sent him an appology letter offering him a gift certificate on his next visit. About an hour later, a similar e-mail came in with some of the details changed, and again I gave away a gift certificate.

What was funny about the situation is that I could tell exactly which table this was. He had given me anough detail in theletter to identify it. Not only did my wife come to his table, but I did too. He know we were haivng mecanical problems. He used the exact phrase I used in talking to him. So we did not come to the table as if "nothing was wrong". I explicitly told him that we were trying to deal with the situation. He said that there was no problem. He said in fact that his party had not really noticed the smokiness. And in fact he was sitting in a portion of the restaurant that was least affected (we have 5 AC units in our restaurant so air quality varies from spot to spot). Of course, none of this was mentioned in his e-mail. The second e-mail had none of the detail but was almost identical to the first. I really suspect it was from a firend of his who had not been at the restaurant but I am not sure.

The situation was not anonymous, but it shows how some customers just will not speak up. If the customer had said half of what he said in the e-mail while in the restaurant, we would have comped his entire meal!

Customers, please speak up while you are in the restaurant. That is why I visit every table when I am in the restaurant. I do want to know!

[bookluvingbabe]

I have been debating whether to recount this story or not, and your humorous addition had made me do it....

A few weeks after we opened, we experienced a mechanical problem at the restaurant.  The result was that the dining room was hot and smokey.  Kay and I made sure we visited every table to appologize for the conditions.  We explained that we had a mecanical problem with our ventilation system, that the restaurant was not up to its usual standards etc.  We told waiters that we would comp anything for any customer who complained, no questions asked.  Over the time affected, we in fact did comp several tables and a huge number of desserts etc. 

Mr. BLB and I stopped in that night and I remember it was a bit smoky but smelled yummy--cooked meat!!!! I suppose if I had been wearing my contact lenses I might have been more concerned but you'd been open what, a month? Was the place on fire? The A/C was working, you had fans on, and you, Kay and Justin were clearly on top of the problem...

I just don't get people sometimes...

Jennifer

[Barbara]

I have been debating whether to recount this story or not, and your humorous addition had made me do it....

This sounds like a scam to me. Why, oh why, do people insist on ripping off hard-working small business owners? Don' they understand that it is like picking your pocket? Sheesh.

[Waitman]

Put me with Bilrus on this one. This board, and others, rarely offer anything other than unrestrained luv for the restaurants that get more than a page of posts. In anyone believes that perfection does not exist on this earth, let them read some of the reviews posted on these threads. Reviews so glowing that it would be churlish to point out that members are regulars, that they know and drink with owners and chefs, that they sometime get special treatment or have special phone numbers to dial for hard-to-get reservations.

Yet, let someone post a negative review, and their taste, judgement and motives are immediately questioned. Anononymous praise is fun. Anonymous criticism, however, is clearly suspect, if not in itself proof of the unworthiness and -- may I say it, moral degeneracy -- of the critic. No wonder the wagons are circled and the critics are driven from our midst, never to post again. They should have known that hyperbole in support of an etherial bit of home smoked bacon, lovingly dressed with citrus foam is fine, but to liken ground veal to Gerber baby food is, well, an outrage. They should also know that, even in a favorable review, the least criticism with be sussed out and held against them and proof of their unworthiness.

.....

Yes, there are trolls and assholes (like Dean's interlocuter above). And I don't much like the anonymous thing. On the other hand, I haven't found a perfect restaurant, either; in fact, some well-loved places seem to have serious problems. People who are charging $50 0r a $100 or more for a reasonable dinner should expect strong and public opinions, positive and negative. It comes with the territory. Nobody like criticism. I don't like it and I get it every day, to my face, from people I like and people I don't. That comes with the territory I chose. Just because I worked hours or days on something doesn't necessarily mean that it's objectively good or that a client will love it, giving me an "A" for effort and hiring me back again.

Isn't the point of the Internet to give everyone a voice, and trust people to be smart enough to sort it out? With calm refutations and support, not emotional personal attacks?

Edited September 15, 2005 by Waitman

[Barbara]

Thank you, Waitman. You said this better than I ever could.

[goldenticket]

This board, and others, rarely offer anything other than unrestrained luv for the restaurants that get more than a page of posts. 

Yet, let someone post a negative review, and their taste, judgement and motives are immediately questioned.  Isn't the point of the Internet to give everyone a voice, and trust people to be smart enough to sort it out?  With calm refutations and support, not emotional personal attacks?

I have to agree with these comments, to a certain extent. I know that I have decided against posting about my meal at a favorite spot of many of this board's 'regulars', which didn't meet my expectations on my first visit. Since it's a place that lots of people (including Tom S.) think highly of, maybe I was just there on an off night, or didn't order the right thing. I think I'll withhold my judgment and give it another try sometime since I value the opinions of (most of ) the folks who post on this board.

I do know that IF I did decide to post about my experience, I would absolutely include specific details about what was good/what wasn't, and what didn't meet expectations. I would hope that manager/owner would take it in the spirit it would be intended, constructive criticism, from one individual. An individual who, at least in my case, has a great deal of respect for the time, talent, and passion that go into running a restaurant, as well as the very personal nature of the work.

I don't think it's right to do the kind of 'hit and run' that we see from time to time, here and elsewhere, that doesn't provide specific details. Diners need to take more personal responsibility for addressing problems when they arise, or if that's not possible, offline and directly with the business, before they smear them publicly and anonymously. They also need to have reasonable expectations since, as it's been pointed out before, restaurants are staffed by other human beings, who are usually trying to do their job the best way they know how.

[Heather]

In anyone believes that perfection does not exist on this earth, let them read some of the reviews posted on these threads.  Reviews so glowing that it would be churlish to point out that members are regulars, that they know and drink with owners and chefs, that they sometime get special treatment or have special phone numbers to dial for hard-to-get reservations. 

I give those about as much weight as I give anonymous slams.

Anonymous criticism, however, is clearly suspect, if not in itself proof of the unworthiness and -- may I say it, moral degeneracy -- of the critic. 

I just ask that a little more thought be put into the negative - similarly a rave is far more interesting with detail. "It was fab!" makes for boring internet. "The fresh sweetness of the scallops paired brilliantly with the creamy potatoes and earthy funky morels" is more likely to make me sit up and take notice. I don't go out much but if I do I try to make sure that my proffered opinions are interesting to more than the just the fans or foes of the particular establishment.

Does becoming a regular preclude an honest, objective opinion? Once you know the chef, owner, etc. is it harder to pan, if just for social reasons?

Edited September 17, 2005 by Heather

[bilrus]

Does becoming a regular preclude an honest, objective opinion?  Once you know the chef, owner, etc. is it harder to pan, if just for social reasons?

I think it certainly is harder to pan outright.

But it is also easier to make constructive criticism (or even just come out and say, "You know, I just didn't like dish X") because it is likely to be taken in the right spirit.

Edited September 15, 2005 by bilrus

[deangold]

Put me with Bilrus on this one.  This board, and others, rarely offer anything other than unrestrained luv for the restaurants that get more than a page of posts .... Yet, let someone post a negative review, and their taste, judgement and motives are immediately questioned. 

In actuality, while I do like the good posts, I also like the critical posts. A couple of posters here posted things that they didn't like and it cause me to look at their issues. We have a new lamb supplier, a new chicken supplier, we retrained our grill guy on how to use the rotisserie, we changed out a few crostini all because of this board and the comments recieved here.

Consistency is the hardest thing to do in a business. We think we figure out a problem and then three weeks later its back. You only get one chance to impress someone on their first visit. If you blow it then you will probably never get them back. Let people complain, but please di it in real time, with detail about what was wrong. Saying our menu is "unappetizing" or that our "kitchen doesn't know what it is doing" is just an attack. I have been told both (via postings elsewhere) and I cannot respond to that. But dry chicken or a hostess being not friendly or a woatier forgetting to fire a tables entrees so they wind up waiting an hour I can deal with.

[FunnyJohn]

I think Dean reflects what most of the restaurant business folks who participate on this board seem to feel - constructive criticism here on DR.com is better than just showering the luv, while keeping mum on something that bothered us. Most of us -- I hope and believe -- are likely to be more understanding of the difficulties of consistently living up to one's reputation in the restaurant world and if we point out things that aren't going properly, be it a particular dish, service, bathrooms, valet parking, whatever, it gives the management a chance to fix the problem. That being said, I don't like to carp on the internet about small details going awry, or even major ones if an establishment is new and still trying to work things out.

[CrescentFresh]

That being said, I don't like to carp on the internet about small details going awry, or even major ones if an establishment is new and still trying to work things out.

Similarly, if I have a below average experience at a restaurant, I'm more apt to wait until after a repeat visit to see if it still occurs before I say something negative. That's not ALL the time mind you, but most of the time. I figure that since negative reviews have a more intense impact than positive ones, better to see if the problem really is inherent in the restaurant rather than it just being an off night.

And I really admire Dean Gold. Dino was one of those places where I had some food complaints after my first visit. Complaints that I think were specific. I admire how he doesn't take specific issues personally but considers them all professionally.

[deangold]

And I really admire Dean Gold.  Dino was one of those places where I had some food complaints after my first visit.  Complaints that I think were specific.  I admire how he doesn't take specific issues personally but considers them all professionally.

Ohhhh jeez, another wanker commemt from that jerkhead..... oops I meant thatnks for the suggestions.

[CrescentFresh]

Ohhhh jeez, another wanker commemt from that jerkhead..... oops I meant thatnks for the suggestions. 

Just trying to turn that slop into something edible.

[Josh Radigan]

but being a restaurant employee the way I see it is this, restaurant is busy, bustling and overflowing one day, service seems in line, no glitches no bumps, 2 weeks later business drops for no apparent reason, stays that way for a couple of days, managers and employees bash their minds trying to figure out what to do. Everyday that goes by is critical to the company, especially when you are talking about a fine line between making and losing money. thats the cold hard facts in the business. Every customer complaint costs a restaurant money, whether we know about it or not. If we do know of an issue, we resolve it the best way we know how, sometimes involving a complimentary gift certificate or doing a tasting for the person. If we don't know about it, we maybe making the same mistake over and over without realizing the problem, thus pissing off more customers who will never return. As someone who believes that there should be some editorial control on some of the posts in these forums, as Mark did point out on the rogue/phantom internet bashing with no true context, there comes a time when we need to address the restaurant head on. This forum was set-up to discuss so many different aspects of dining, wining, and cooking, but at the root of the forum is the 'go out and eat at x-place', then tell us about your experience the next day. Restaurants should be willing to accept not only praise, but criticism, for thats the only way they get better.

[Dental_FlossTycoon]

Some people love to complain! The reason and we all know the answer, is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease or the free food or gift certificate and they love that free food and something for nothing. All for the price of being a complainer, which to them is an admirable quality because they know what they want and how things should be and if they get something out of it then hey, that's a good thing.

Too bad they are the people that make life miserable for us all. I for one do not encourage free or courtesy items for complainers, but what do I know, I don't work in the food service industry.

[Drive-by Critic]

I am new to this board and late to this discussion, so I don't know if anyone is going to see this post.

This discussion was extremely informative for me. I also think a post - good, bad, or in between - should be detailed. The "reviews" in the regional sections of the WashPost drive me nuts. All they do is run through the menu.

I've had very few gripes - maybe a half dozen in the 20.5 years that I've lived here - that were serious enough to warrant a complaint. And I would only complain if the restaurant was otherwise so good that I'd want to return. Why bother complaining about a place you wouldn't go back to anyway?

I wanted to let the owners here know that I have tried speaking up about a problem, but I'm now reluctant to do so. Why? Because I don't WANT a freebie. I want to get the sense that the management actually cares about the problem and will do something about it. I don't expect perfection (which is why we give a restaurant THREE shots at our hard-earned money - money that is very scarce when you both work for nonprofits - before giving up on them).

Still, it is hard to understand how some problems can occur in the first place, if a restaurant really cares about its guests. A freebie isn't going to solve the problem of cigarette smoke wafting from the bar into the dining room. It should have dawned on the owners - who obviously spent a large amount of thought and money on the design and decor - that if the glass wall separating the bar from the dining room didn't extend all the way to the ceiling, that the smoke would not be contained to the bar. Are they going to re-design the restaurant (e.g., extend the wall to the ceiling or add stronger exhaust fans in the bar)?

My guess is that they - like auto companies - estimate the amount of damage that will result from the decision to do or not do X, Y, or Z. How many people will be burned to a crisp from exploding gas tanks? How many customers will we lose if some smoke gets into the dining room?

But for problems that are easily fixed - I often have the sense that they are just trying to placate me rather than really caring about the issue. I don't like being humored or bought-off. I want to know that the next time I frequent that restaurant, I won't encounter the same problem.

[RaisaB]

That's a generous system you have giving restaurants three chances when there are so many to choose from. I also agree why bother complaining if you not planning to revisit.

Maybe some of the owners/managers on this board would care to comment on the lip service rule. I certainly don't want a freebie when I complain, usually I complain because I want to like the restaurant and this particular problem would keep me from coming back.

Welcome to DonRockwell.com!

Edited February 26, 2006 by RaisaB

[ScotteeM]

I'll add my welcome, Drive-By! As you can see, when a new message is added to a thread, it gets sent to the front of the queue and marked for all of us to see.

You do raise some good points. As has been said in this group before (and elsewhere), if the problem can be fixed at the time it occurs, it is important for the customer to bring it to the attention of those who can fix it.

In the case of smoke wafting from the bar, one could try asking to be moved to a table that is further away from the bar. It might or might not help, but it might at least bring the problem to the attention of the restaurant in a polite way.

I wouldn't assume that the designers thought about and dismissed this potential problem. I work in another industry--in a client-service business which just moved from one building to another 8 months ago. The "new" building was actually an existing office building that was remodeled and built out to the business owners' specifications. Unfortunately, the architect(s)/designer(s) missed a few very basic issues in their build-out specs that have had a profound effect on our functionality. These involve heating and air conditioning (my lobby area can go from 66 to 80 degrees in less than an hour, and vice-versa) and an elevator that sat unused for several years and needed more maintenance after we opened to remain functional than anyone anticipated. Management is now struggling to correct these and other design oversights.

Some of the building problems can be mitigated. Perhaps the bar's ventilator needs servicing and isn't performing up to par the night you're there. If you and other patrons mention it, management might be prompted to have it serviced.

That being said, I agree with Raisa. In some cases, I'm willing to give a restaurant another try, particularly if others seem to have more positive experiences. But if it is a high-end place and I have less than a high-end experience, I am going to be more reluctant to give it another chance, regardless of others' experience.

And there are some things that are hard to complain about at the time. These include the perception that one is receiving service that is inferior to that received by other patrons. A couple of years ago, my landmark birthday celebration at one of the city's top fine-dining restaurants was marred by such service. We arrived promptly for our 6 pm reservation to be told they weren't yet open, and we were asked to wait upstairs in the bar. We sat within sight of the desk, but no one even looked our way, and we only knew they were ready for us when several other parties entered and were seated. The food was good and ok by turns, and the wine service was downright patronizing--I didn't need an unsolicited lecture on the island of Madeira--I've been there, thank you! Maybe we were there on a bad night, but for that kind of money, we prefer to return where the service is gracious and welcoming and the food and wine service include almost nothing below excellent on the first visit. First impressions can be very important at that level.

This website is a great forum for constructive criticism, as many members of the industry do participate and truly want to provide the best dining experience possible.

[Joe H]

This is related to a post of mine on the thread for Black's.

"I wanted to let the owners here know that I have tried speaking up about a problem, but I'm now reluctant to do so. Why? Because I don't WANT a freebie. I want to get the sense that the management actually cares about the problem and will do something about it."

As long as you mention the problem/concern after you pay it is clear that you are not asking for anything. On some issues, not every of course, management or the owner (s) may be totally unaware that a problem even exists. When it is a restaurant that you otherwise like or have had good experiences at in the past I believe it is always worthwhile to bring it to their attention. At least let them-the owners and/or managers-be the ones directly responsible for your not returning.

Still, as Raisa mentioned, three strikes is a lot. Almost all restaurants I know from one visit if I will return or will not.

[Drive-by Critic]

This is related to a post of mine on the thread for Black's.

"I wanted to let the owners here know that I have tried speaking up about a problem, but I'm now reluctant to do so. Why? Because I don't WANT a freebie. I want to get the sense that the management actually cares about the problem and will do something about it."

As long as you mention the problem/concern after you pay it is clear that you are not asking for anything.  On some issues, not every of course, management or the owner (s) may be totally unaware that a problem even exists.  When it is a restaurant that you otherwise like or have had good experiences at in the past I believe it is always worthwhile to bring it to their attention.  At least let them-the owners and/or managers-be the ones directly responsible for your not returning.

Hi, Joe -

We left Black Market Bistro and went elsewhere. The next day, I phoned, but got only an answering machine. I left my name and number and a brief message, explaining that I wanted to speak to a manager. Never got a call back. I disagree that talking to the manager after you pay tells them that you don't want a freebie. They might think you are hitting them up for a gift certificate for your next meal.

OK, I have to run - I now have a long list of restaurants to try, thanks to all of you!

Ellen

[Chris Cunningham]

here?

[DonRocks]

[i'm going to let this posting stand for now, and people here can discuss it as they see fit. I have nothing to hide, so fire away.

Cheers,

Rocks]

[Sthitch]

Interestingly, I didn't know that Rocks was now the government and had the power to strain someone's freedom of speech. I always thought that his power ended at the edge of HIS website.

Also, I have no idea what precipitated this topic.

[mdt]

My guess it is in response to this thread that was recently brought back. Seems to me it is a completely worthless thread and I don't see what the big deal is about having it deleted.

I cannot remember anything outside of a personal attack, two-bit one line response, or something completely off-topic getting deleted.

Please expand on your original post.

[Chris Cunningham]

n.

[jm chen]

It's a tough task to create a balance on sites like this between total free-for-all and overly constrained lockdown. I for one think Don does a stupendous job with moderating -- he very, very rarely outright removes things, and never does so without good reason.

Opinions are welcome. Encouraged. Needed. Without them, there'd be no site at all.

What it all comes down to is how you express yourself. If a guy comes in, sits down at your bar, tries some different dishes, and then says, "I was expecting more exciting food," you'd be annoyed and upset, but you'd probably let it go, or you might even ask if there's something else you could do to help him think better of the place.

If a guy walked in, threw a handful of olives at your head, and shouted, "THIS PLACE SUCKS!" you'd be less likely to take his opinion seriously.

[Chris Cunningham]

ons.

[JPW]

Seeing as how it was wranglerguy's first post. That I believe (although I can't find the post I remember seeing that mentioned it) that wranglerguy is the manager of a restaurant that had just received a less than stellar review from Sietsema, and that we were discussing said review, and that wranglerguy apparently did not identify himself.

I don't see a problem with having deleted this as nothing more than an attempt to flame as it's major contribution appeared to be "my city is better than yours".

[Hannah]

I think if you read the original thread, the vast number of responses indicated that people thought the post was at best ill-advised and at worst an outright troll.

And anyone who's spent any time on any moderated message boards should be familiar with the concept of troll posts being deleted. Free speech doesn't enter into it. It's a signal-to-noise ratio issue, and the thread in question was lots of noise with very little signal; the food board equivalent of "d00d I am l33t and u all suk."

You want a discussion, pose a reasonably worded question. You want a flamefest, start by insulting a good chunk of the membership by calling your thread "Newsflash: Washingtonians Are Mindless, Zombies incapable of independent thought."

[Joe H]

I would like to know why Rockwell decided to lock this thread? I put a bit of time into this and thought it would inspire a long thread discussing restaurants from another time and the evolution of restaurants in D.C. But it is locked.

http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?showtopic=2410

Edited March 6, 2006 by Joe H

[mame11]

I would like to know why Rockwell decided to lock this thread?  I put a bit of time into this and thought it would inspire a long thread discussing restaurants from another time and the evolution of restaurants in D.C.  But it is locked. 

http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?showtopic=2410

Joe, I can't speak for Don Rockwell but I thought he locked your thread because it was so thoughtful and such a nice piece that it sort of stood alone. It didn't read like a discussion piece. It was quite nice all by itself.

[Joe H]

Wow! Thanks for the really nice words. I would like to believe that is true...

[Barbara]

To recap: in the Dino thread, someone mentioned that "Michael" said he had been banned from DR.com. That prompted our fearless leader to bring the "mindless Washingtonians" thread back to our attention.

I think he's being too diligent, myself; but then, Rocks doesn't ask me for advice on how he should spend his time.

[bioesq]

I would like to know why Rockwell decided to lock this thread?  I put a bit of time into this and thought it would inspire a long thread discussing restaurants from another time and the evolution of restaurants in D.C.  But it is locked. 

http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?showtopic=2410

It's too bad that it's locked. That was a thoughtful, lovely piece of writing about the way that it was in this area, and I would have enjoyed discussing some of those old places that seemed so magical. Hopefully there will be another opportunity.

[Audrey2025]

Generally: Don created this great forum and should be able to moderate it as he sees fit. I think he's done a great job of letting us share, vent, what have you, but there are times when people will write in the heat of the moment and it degenerates from discussion to something a bit less civilized. I think the thread you're referring to ran the risk of degeneration!

Joe: I thought that was a nice, nostalgic, stand-alone piece...that wasn't really about food. Perhaps Don wanted to keep it so we could appreciate it (rather than delete it) but locked it to keep us on topic. Just a thought...

[Drive-by Critic]

This has been a valuable history lesson for me. I likely wouldn't have seen Joe's excellent essay had this thread not come up.

Last I looked, the U.S. Constitution says CONGRESS shall make no law...this is Senor Rockwell's dining room. He makes the rules.

I've been here only short time, but long enough to form the impression that this is a great board, which is a tribute to the owners/moderators (who are indeed moderate) and the members, who are knowledgeable and wicked funny.

Ellen

[dmwine]

Anyone else feel like you're reading Harry Potter for the first time, only it's the third book in the series?

There's a back story here, and reading that restored thread doesn't quite tell it ... Like, why restore it? Why today?

[Principia]

Anyone else feel like you're reading Harry Potter for the first time, only it's the third book in the series?  

There's a back story here, and reading that restored thread doesn't quite tell it ... Like, why restore it? Why today?

This discussion has its origins in the Dino thread, where it was mentioned that someone from the restaurant *had* been posting here under false pretenses (i.e., not identifying themselves as coming from the restaurant's staff).

Apparently this person - Dino's GM, Michael - was the person who started the deleted (and now resurrected) "Washington sux!" thread. Evidently said thread was started because Tom Sietsema had had the temerity not to like Dino and had said so in print. Don may (or may not) have subsequently kicked the guy from the boards as a result.

Folks, feel free to offer corrections if that was not an accurate recap.

eta: see deangold's post below.

[B.A.R.]

Cue the music

[deangold]

MIchael was never kicked off by Don

I simply asked him not to post as I felt he was being too defensive in where he was coming from.

[hillvalley]

Seeing as how it was wranglerguy's first post. That I believe (although I can't find the post I remember seeing that mentioned it) that wranglerguy is the manager of a restaurant that had just received a less than stellar review from Sietsema, and that we were discussing said review, and that wranglerguy apparently did not identify himself.

I don't see a problem with having deleted this as nothing more than an attempt to flame as it's major contribution appeared to be "my city is better than yours".

You remember the situation perfectly. wranglerguy's thread came out on the same day his restaurant recieved a less than stellar review from Tom. It happened to be the same day as our fall picnic. the thread was his first post and other than Don and me, no one knew who he was or if he was in the industry. Although I cannot speak for Don, if I remember correctly the thread was locked and deleted because it was not relevant to the forum.

Joe, again I cannot speak for Don but I imagine that is why your post was deleted as well. Threads are supposed to be about the current dining scene, not a remembrance of the past, no matter how well written the piece is. This is not the first time a piece of this nature has been deleted. This just isn't the appropriate forum. Maybe you should create a website for your writings since they are clearly appreciated.

As for deleting posts, well, we're playing on Don's playground and have to follow his rules. If you don't like it you can leave and start your own. That's actually why Don started this one.

I have to agree though, that there seems to be some intollerance for unfavorable reviews of loved restaurants, although lately we have been much better about it. All opinions are welcome, as long as they are backed by a reasonable explination. I do think it is a good idea for new members to take a bit of time and read the board before posting something negative the first time around. We are less suspect of people who come on, trash a restaurant and then leave.

There have been a few members who we have deleted, but that was after numerous attempts on Don's part to work with that member. As far as I know, no one was deleted without prior contact from Don.

If someone feels that their membership was revoked unfairly please feel free to email me at membership@donrockwell.com and I will look into the matter. Don tries to run a fair board, protecting opinions and people's livelyhood at the same time. It's not a task I would want to take over. I think he succeeds or I wouldn't put so much time and work into it.

ps Don and I have started the first steps in planning our spring picnic. Stay tuned for details.

[Joe H]

"Maybe you should create a website for your writings"

"As for deleting posts, well, we're playing on Don's playground and have to follow his rules. If you don't like it you can leave and start your own."

I have learned from experience when to leave well enough alone....

Edited March 6, 2006 by Joe H

[crackers]

Threads are supposed to be about the current dining scene, not a remembrance of the past, no matter how well written the piece is. 

OK, I'm sure most of us didn't know that rule. I certainly didn't. There's a current thread on eGullett called DC's Dead Restaurants - Late and Lamented that was begun by Waitman that I have enjoyed.

[hillvalley]

"Maybe you should create a website for your writings"

"As for deleting posts, well, we're playing on Don's playground and have to follow his rules. If you don't like it you can leave and start your own."

I have learned from experience when to leave well enough alone....

Joe-I think you are misreading the tone of my post-one of the problems with the Internet. I was sincere when I suggested you start your own web site. There are clearly people who enjoy your writing and would like to read more of it. Unfortunately, this is not the proper site for your postings. It is up to Don to decide if your posts such as the one in question should be a part of the board and he has clearly made a decision. It is up to us to abide by his wishes or suffer the consequences.

OK, I'm sure most of us didn't know that rule.  I certainly didn't.  There's a current thread on eGullett called DC's Dead Restaurants - Late and Lamented that was begun by Waitman that I have enjoyed.

I mistyped, mispoke, whatever. I wouldn't say that it is a rule, only Don can make those up, and old restaurants have come up, but I think beyond a thread such as the one on eGullet mention above the board should focus on the current dining scene. For the record, I love that thread.

I don't think that Dominique's, the old Sushi Ko, Jean-Louis, etc. each need thier own thread, nor do I think that random threads waxing poetic about how the city used to be are necessary. Again, as I said above, while I understand that many people enjoy reading Joe's pieces I don't think that this is the proper site for them.

[mdt]

I mistyped, mispoke, whatever.  I wouldn't say that it is a rule, only Don can make those up, and old restaurants have come up, but I think beyond a thread such as the one on eGullet mention above the board should focus on the current dining scene.  For the record, I love that thread.

Regardless if his essays fit this or any other site, they are perfect for a blog site. Joe, spend the time to setup a site as you obviously enjoy putting those essays together. You can decide to let folks comment or not. I am sure many folks would digitally travel there to read.

[Meaghan]

As for deleting posts, well, we're playing on Don's playground and have to follow his rules.  If you don't like it you can leave and start your own.  That's actually why Don started this one.

Wait. This isn't crazy Don's playground?

Dang.

Edited to delete triple spacing...

[Joe H]

Well, as a native born Washingtonian who has seen this city evolve from a sleepy southern borough and the first northern outpost on the road north to what today is a major international player and one of the most beautiful cities on earth, I disagree with you. I believe that to fully understand and appreciate Washington, D. C. there is much to be said and much to be learned from knowing what was once here in reation to what we are today. I'm in the rather unusual position of having grown up for almost sixty years in a family in the restaurant industry (my step father was a chef (Statler Hilton) and my mother was a waittress-at the ORIGINAL Hot Shoppes at 14th and Park road in the '30's (today Hot Shoppes is known as Marriott and yes, I waited on J. Williard Marriott when I was in 10th grade at #10) and my sister is a caterer who once had a restaurant considered one of the city's 50 best according to Phyllis Richman. My first job was at the Hot Shoppes at Wisconsin and Van Ness which today is the home to Channel Nine. I have a lot of memories; my parents-when they were alive-had a lot of memories and stories.

Simplistically, understanding Washington, D. C. today without knowing what it once was, for me, is like understanding McDonald's without knowing what brought it to the point of even being popular. As someone who had food obsessed parents that used I 495 WHEN IT FIRST OPENED to drive to the first McDonald's in Hybla Valley from Silver Spring, who went out Georgia Avenue when there were only cows and barns in Wheaton (yes, Wheaton!) and who knows that Crisfield's food tasted the same two years ago as it did fifty two years ago-I think these are important considerations in where this city is today. Perhaps you would like to assume that a message board or a forum is going to ignore this. Fine. But in the city I was born in I believe that what we are today is fully appreciated by undertanding how far we have come to get here.

I wrote an essay that spoke of this. It was nonconfrontational. I am sorry but I am very surprised that you have told me-twice-that I should start my own board. I just want to be part of this board and believe that I have something to contribute. But growing up in Washington and the restaurants that came before those here now are a very large part of what we are today. I am sorry that you feel we should ignore the heritage which is a large part of who I am. To appreciate what Roberto and Jean Louis accomplished is to understand what was here when they arrived. To know the ambition of Michel when he moved from Loxs Angeles. Of Fabio when he moved his family from London.

Simply, to understand and appreciate the present you cannot sever the past.

[hungry prof]

Far be it for me or anybody else to tell Don what to do (especially since I'm an infrequent poster, but constant reader), but it strikes me that there's a rather easy solution to this: set up a separate forum within this board for "DC Dining in Retrospect" or some such title.

[Stretch]

Hey, it was past time for a schism anyway.

[hillvalley]

Hey, it was past time for a schism anyway.

I was just thinking the same thing