The NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament aka "March Madness" (1939-), Mar 19 - Apr 8, 2019

[DonRocks]

Prior to the game, I thought it would be a lopsided Kentucky win.  I thought the # of Kentucky big men would tire out the big Wisconsin guys, as they'd have to defend the entire game against fresh legs and would, in turn, be guarded by a rotating group of physical players.  I thought Kentucky had the edge on shooting guards as well -- although I didn't think their defense would cause problems for Wisconsin, I thought Kentucky would out rebound Wisconsin and keep them to one shot while the Kentucky guards would be more open when Wisconsin had to collapse inside to counter the Kentucky big men.

I might as well have thought the moon was made of cheese.  I was entirely wrong.

Great game plan by Wisconsin, great composure by Wisconsin &, most of all, better playing by Wisconsin.  Except for a few exciting runs by Kentucky (too few), an all Wisconsin game.

I only caught the final 8 minutes of the game (my initial thoughts are up above). What I remember today are two things, other than some poor officiating which seemed to affect both teams: how easily Karl-Anthony Towns hauled in at least three offensive rebounds, and, more importantly, how Kentucky's players, on offense, just seemed to convene at the top of the key - giving the ball to each other, nobody wanting to touch it, like a bunch of nervous 18- and 19-year-old kids.

More than any other game I can think of, this reminds me of Michigan's Fab Five (Chris Webber, Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Jimmy King, and Ray Jackson) losing to Duke (pay attention to that previous word), 71-51 in the 1992 NCAA Championship Game. This, more than NC State upsetting Houston (with Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler) in the 1983 Championship Game (homage to Jimmy V), because I'm placing more emphasis on "the Nervous Kids syndrome" than "the David-and-Goliath syndrome" - I can't shake the image of those Kentucky players just playing hand-off at the top of the key, which drove home the point that, despite their talents, these really were just a bunch of scared kids, up against other scared kids that happened to have a couple years more maturity and composure.

Did anyone notice the asymmetry in my first two sentences in the previous paragraph? I wrote "Michigan ... losing to Duke," and "NC State upsetting Houston." People were rooting for Michigan to lose that game, not unlike they were rooting for Kentucky to lose this game. In 1992, people remember Michigan losing; not Duke winning, but in 1983, people remember NC State winning; not Houston losing.

[DaveO]

Prior to the game, I thought it would be a lopsided Kentucky win.  I thought the # of Kentucky big men would tire out the big Wisconsin guys, as they'd have to defend the entire game against fresh legs and would, in turn, be guarded by a rotating group of physical players.  I thought Kentucky had the edge on shooting guards as well -- although I didn't think their defense would cause problems for Wisconsin, I thought Kentucky would out rebound Wisconsin and keep them to one shot while the Kentucky guards would be more open when Wisconsin had to collapse inside to counter the Kentucky big men.

I might as well have thought the moon was made of cheese.  I was entirely wrong.

Great game plan by Wisconsin, great composure by Wisconsin &, most of all, better playing by Wisconsin.  Except for a few exciting runs by Kentucky (too few), an all Wisconsin game.

Pre game I thought the same as Steve R. Haha weren't we both off. Wisconsin was so good on the boards vs Kentucky height and similarly effective on offense. Well played competitive game.

[darkstar965]

Prior to the game, I thought it would be a lopsided Kentucky win. I thought the # of Kentucky big men would tire out the big Wisconsin guys, as they'd have to defend the entire game against fresh legs and would, in turn, be guarded by a rotating group of physical players. I thought Kentucky had the edge on shooting guards as well -- although I didn't think their defense would cause problems for Wisconsin, I thought Kentucky would out rebound Wisconsin and keep them to one shot while the Kentucky guards would be more open when Wisconsin had to collapse inside to counter the Kentucky big men.

I might as well have thought the moon was made of cheese. I was entirely wrong.

Great game plan by Wisconsin, great composure by Wisconsin &, most of all, better playing by Wisconsin. Except for a few exciting runs by Kentucky (too few), an all Wisconsin game.

Pre game I thought the same as Steve R. Haha weren't we both off. Wisconsin was so good on the boards vs Kentucky height and similarly effective on offense. Well played competitive game.

You gentlemen are simply both honest. Outside the upper Midwest (and certainly not in Vegas) no one predicted this. I was rooting for the Badgers but no way did I expect them to deliver. First championship game appearance since the year Pearl Harbor was bombed! A few--and I mean a very few--probably made a ton of money last night.

But, gambling aside, it was just a fantastic game for all the right reasons. On paper, the Wildcats are clearly more talented. But, last night, Wisconsin was so the better team on both ends of the court. Dudes who look like Kaminsky aren't supposed to play like he did but, sheesh, he was so obviously the best player on the court....with all those McDonalds All-Americans. Wisconsin played together. They played their game. They were never intimidated. They clearly came to win and did.

The Harrison twins made big news last year this time by "shocking the world" to return for their sophomore seasons under Calipari. One, I forget which, confidently said they "had unfinished business" after dropping last year's final to Connecticut. Well, here's an idea you'll never see happen: those same twins, and Towns, should come back for their Junior (and sophomore, respectively) sessions because there's really some unfinished business now. One more season beyond that and they could even earn degrees. But, not how the game works of course.

I think last night was one of the three most exciting Final 4 games since 'nova over the Hoyas in '85.

#OnWisconsin

[DaveO]

ABDuke aka Wisconsin!!!

[Steve R.]

Don: I may be wrong but I think some of that passing the ball around and not going for it in the last 3 minutes might have been Calipari's fault. When Kentucky got the lead, I think he could be repeatedly seen instructing them to slow it down & eat clock. Puzzling. They didn't react well to it & looked really unsure of themselves the rest of the way.

Am I imagining this? I didn't stick around for any post game analysis & haven't been listening since.

[DonRocks]

Don: I may be wrong but I think some of that passing the ball around and not going for it in the last 3 minutes might have been Calipari's fault. When Kentucky got the lead, I think he could be repeatedly seen instructing them to slow it down & eat clock. Puzzling. They didn't react well to it & looked really unsure of themselves the rest of the way.

Am I imagining this? I didn't stick around for any post game analysis & haven't been listening since.

No, I don't think you're imagining it - it was a lack of leadership and game plan, and when the coach saw it happening, he needed to do something.

[DaveO]

Don: I may be wrong but I think some of that passing the ball around and not going for it in the last 3 minutes might have been Calipari's fault. When Kentucky got the lead, I think he could be repeatedly seen instructing them to slow it down & eat clock. Puzzling. They didn't react well to it & looked really unsure of themselves the rest of the way.

Am I imagining this? I didn't stick around for any post game analysis & haven't been listening since.

@Steve R:   While I agreed with you above, I should limit that agreement to the part about the Kentucky bigs, and their potential to whip and wear down Wisconsin.  This years Kentucky team!!!!  Has there ever been a college team with so many tall guys, so many of them high school all-Americans, and the platooning that Calipari did all year.  That was fascinating and unique.

I didn't think it was going to be a romp though, I need to add.  Simply because a much smaller Notre Dame team played Kentucky so well, and was offensively effective against Kentucky.  Wisconsin was similarly offensively effective all year, as was Notre Dame.

The big surprise to me was how well Wisconsin did on the boards, as did Notre Dame.  Wisconsin significantly outrebounded Kentucky and did terrific on the offensive boards.  Notre Dame held their own.   Both those outcomes surprised me.  Overall Wisconsin, a relatively big team was great on the boards and significantly better than Kentucky on that basis.  Notre Dame a relatively short team equaled Kentucky on the boards.  Both those results stunned me.

So much for relying solely on height as a predictive element for the outcome of the game, the defense and the rebounding.   Wisconsin and Notre Dame ran smarter,better offenses against Kentucky.  Who knows...maybe Kentucky put more time on practicing on the defensive end...playing to their height...and didn't push their offensive game plans enough in practice.  Possibly they spread the playing time so much overall that they never developed coherent offensive play as a team.   Definitely they spread point guard time with one of their two big twins and alternatively with a super quick mighty mite player.

The Harrison brother who played point and the super quick freshman Tyler Ulis are so stunningly different in style and play there is no way you can coach up a coherent offensive style for an entire team to seamlessly switch from one point guard to the other.

Anyway I hope its a competitive game tonight.  #OnWisconsin!!!!

[farmer john]

After watching all of Kentucky's tournament games (and several of their regular season ones) I believe their undefeated season to be as much a function of the SEC being terrible as anything else. No way that team goes unbeaten througn the ACC, Big 10, Big 12 or Pac 12.

Their half court offense is basically non-existent and they lack the quickness to defend teams with 5 guys who can all handle the ball and shoot. If all your guys can score and you have a lot of ball movement the secondary defenders blocking shots (Kentucky's most spectacular strength) goes right out the window.  Duke would have beaten them if Wisconsin did not.

Unfortunate for the Wildcats the way things shook down with Notre Dame, Wisconsin and Duke probably being the 3 teams in the whole shebang most equipped to beat them.

I also agree that UK probably spread the playing time too much. Stars win big games.

[DonRocks]

Unfortunate for the Wildcats the way things shook down with Notre Dame, Wisconsin and Duke probably being the 3 teams in the whole shebang most equipped to beat them.

Kind of makes for a memorable Final Four though, no?

[farmer john]

It has been an excellent tournament in general. Far and away my favorite sporting event year after year.

[darkstar965]

Another great game for the final however much a letdown on the result.

[DaveO]

@Farmer John:   You watched a lot of Kentucky.  I bow to your observations.

Good tournament.  Lots of competitive games.  The college game;  so many different styles representing coaching differences and the very varying degree of talent and skill.  At the end a lot of competitive games that might have gone either way.

But oh those Duke guards and their quickness.  In the final game it was the freshmen with one of them being virtually completely unsung during the season....and then to put Duke on his shoulders mid game in the second half and completely carry Duke.  The other being Best Player and carrying Duke at the end and during long stretches.  Also, mostly excellent stifling defense from Duke from of course the guards, who completely dominated, and from most of the other players.

I always enjoy this tournament.  Completely great enthusiasm and energy on the court and in the stands.

By the way, after the game was over I listened to Bill Walton on Westwood radio.  What an entertaining trip.

[farmer john]

I told a friend before the ACC tourney that I was picking Duke to win it all and Tyus Jones being the most clutch player I saw all year was the reason. Time to bask in the glory of that prediction and forget all the other incorrect ones.

[darkstar965]

@Farmer John:   You watched a lot of Kentucky.  I bow to your observations.

Good tournament.  Lots of competitive games.  The college game;  so many different styles representing coaching differences and the very varying degree of talent and skill.  At the end a lot of competitive games that might have gone either way.

But oh those Duke guards and their quickness.  In the final game it was the freshmen with one of them being virtually completely unsung during the season....and then to put Duke on his shoulders mid game in the second half and completely carry Duke.  The other being Best Player and carrying Duke at the end and during long stretches.  Also, mostly excellent stifling defense from Duke from of course the guards, who completely dominated, and from most of the other players.

I always enjoy this tournament.  Completely great enthusiasm and energy on the court and in the stands.

By the way, after the game was over I listened to Bill Walton on Westwood radio.  What an entertaining trip.

Agree on all. For me, Grayson Allen won that game. The kid's raw gifts and drive were amazing off the bench. A freshman! Look out for the Blue Devils next year. Even with Okafor almost a lock to declare for the draft, Coach K may well earn a 6th title before too long.

[darkstar965]

Both Harrison twins (Kentucky), magnanimous sophomores that they've been, will declare for the NBA draft. Shock of shocks. Calipari no doubt already working the phones for their replacements.

[farmer john]

Both Harrison twins (Kentucky), magnanimous sophomores that they've been, will declare for the NBA draft. Shock of shocks. Calipari no doubt already working the phones for their replacements.

Neither one is projected to go before 50th or so in the draft at this point. They would have gone higher last year.

[darkstar965]

Neither one is projected to go before 50th or so in the draft at this point. They would have gone higher last year.

Have seen that.  And now 7 have declared from KY with Towns likely to go first or second.  A bit head spinning.  Of the 7, only 1 (Cauley-Stein) even made it to his junior year.  "student athletes," my posterior.  

[DaveO]

When discussions of the Kentucky team came up it had gotten me thinking of the LSU team that Shaquille O'Neal played on in college.  The most direct connection being that it too had enormous "twin towers" like this past Kentucky team, Shaq being one of them.   The other was a guy named Stanley Roberts who was roughly as big as Shaq.    On top of that they had this thrilling super quick guard, probably better than either of the big men, Chris Jackson.  The coach was Dale Brown, a noted long time college basketball coach.

There is a video coming out about Shaq, Dale Brown and Shaq's time at LSU  Should be rich.   BTW:  The LSU team had nowhere's near the record of this past Kentucky team but it was quite good, extraordinarily entertaining, and had these phenomenal players.  That LSU team was somewhat memorable, just based on its extraordinary players.  I'd bet this video will be entertaining.

[DaveO]

Here is a neat little story about a coach who is a perennial competitor in the NCAA's, often in the final 4, and who had his team in the final 4 again this year;  the clear underdog, Michigan State, and its coach Tom Izzo.

Izzo gets a lot of acclaim for taking his many teams into the final 4 over the years, and at times they are the underdogs, like this years team.  History states he is an excellent coach, especially at the end of a college basketball season.

What is interesting in this article is how old players stay connected to him, including two who are currently competing and covering one another.  It says something when players from 14 years earlier stay connected to a coach.

[DonRocks]

Here's the final bracket from last season:

And the starting bracket from this season:

Effing Baylor! 

 
Well, this year, they installed lights in the tunnel. Here we are again in 2016.
 
Let's start it off with a terrific upset:
 
"Yale Conjures Up a Dream Win After 54-Year Tourney Drought" by Dana O'Neil on espn.go.com
"Yale Upsets Baylor 79-75 to Post 1st NCAA Tourney Win" by msn.com
 
Conjoined with:
 
"A Yale Player Airballed a Free Throw with Less Than 10 Seconds Left in the Game"  by Nina Mandell on ftw.usatoday.co

Joe, did you go to Baylor? If so, you're having a rough go of it. What do you think of RGIII? I *hate* the media for throwing him under the bus when he was so clearly injured during the playoffs of his first season. I'm not sure exactly who to blame for them playing him with his injury, but it sure isn't *his* fault. And then during the playoffs, he got *really* badly hurt, which might have cost him a Hall of Fame - yes, Hall of Fame - career.

How do you play against 300-pound linemen when you can't even walk? And we're all calling RGIII a "bust." Yeah, right. Just like Bill Walton or Dražen Petrović were "busts."

Lest we forget how great RGIII was before the Redskins ruined his career:

[MC Horoscope]

I love Middle Tennessee!

[DonRocks]

This thread had turned into a diatribe against the University of Kentucky's "one-and-done" mentality, but I just figured out a rather incredible statistic:

In the history of the NBA(+ABA), there have been a total of 111 players who have 16,000+ career points.

Guess how many have come from the University of Kentucky?

One.

Dan Issel - and he was drafted *40 years ago*.

Only one active player - Tayshaun Prince, whose career is essentially over - has more than 8,500 points, though two-or-three others will soon break that unremarkable threshold.

Kind of gives new meaning to the term "one-and-done."

Kentucky (of late, anyway) pretty much has their pick of the crop of best high-school players in the nation, but they aren't developing properly, at least not according to this one statistic. I hope for their sake that they retain competent, *honest* financial planners, because they most likely make a fairly high income, but for less than ten years, and then - they most likely have to live off that money for the rest of their lives. Certainly, it can be done with the proper attitude, but you can't go out collecting mansions and yachts.

[DaveO]

Don:  that is a "good" statistic above.  Here is a different one:   Among the top 20 scorers all time Kobe Bryant, Moses Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Lebron James, and Kevin Garnett all attended the college of "never went".  Not sure of what that means except none of them played in the NCAA's, none were in the final 4 and none experienced "one shining moment".

This years NCAA's are becoming an ACC breakout event.  All 4 of last nights winners were from the ACC.  Of the 16 teams in the Sweet 16 6 were from the ACC plus U Maryland an ACC charter member.  Gawd I used to love watching the ACC championship.

Now I'm curious which college has the best collection of all time NBA players???

[DonRocks]

Now I'm curious which college has the best collection of all time NBA players???

My guess is North Carolina, followed by UCLA, although "best collection" could be interpreted differently by different people. My guess is also that colleges like Duke and Indiana produced players that performed better in college than in the pros, but that's just a guess.

Don:  that is a "good" statistic above.  Here is a different one:   Among the top 20 scorers all time Kobe Bryant, Moses Malone, Dirk Nowitzki, Lebron James, and Kevin Garnett all attended the college of "never went".  Not sure of what that means except none of them played in the NCAA's, none were in the final 4 and none experienced "one shining moment". 

I see two major reasons for this:

1) This crop of 5 players are "once every 5-10 years" talents, and they were good enough to make it out of high school (although Nowitzki was 20 in his rookie year) - clearly the exception and not the rule. We could start a contra-list with Kwame Brown, who was the first high school player ever to be drafted #1 - although they weren't drafted out of high school, I can think of insanely touted high school players like Wayne McCoy (from Long Island Lutheran, who Parade Magazine said was the best player in the country as a junior, and played for St. Johns, but never a single game in the NBA) and Earl Jones (the prodigy man-child from Mount Hope, WV, who transferred to Spingarn for his senior year, went to UDC because of his SATs, and ended up winning the NCAA Division II Championship with Michael Britt, but only played in 14 NBA games) who just never developed properly, even *with* college. I saw McCoy play in the Capital Classic and I *knew* he was too slow to ever amount to anything, despite scoring 70 points in a single game in high school - I remember him missing a routine two-ball dunk at the halftime competition (to his credit, he made it on the second attempt, but it was nothing special) - he was listed as 6'10", but couldn't have been any taller than 6'8":

"Former College Stars: What If?" by Charles Robinson on articles.dailypress.com (skip to the 1970s).

I was around 15-years-old when McCoy and Jones were getting hyped, and they seemed like Gods to me at the time, which is why I felt (and still feel) especially let down by those two. It sounds silly, but I still feel disappointed, even almost 40 years later.

Bryant, Malone, James, and Garnett were all legitimate mega-mega-mega talents even at age 18.

2) They had 4 extra years in the NBA, which at their level equates to about 6,000-8,000 points.

[farmer john]

Kentucky (of late, anyway) pretty much has their pick of the crop of best high-school players in the nation, but they aren't developing properly, at least not according to this one statistic. I hope for their sake that they retain competent, *honest* financial planners, because they most likely make a fairly high income, but for less than ten years, and then - they most likely have to live off that money for the rest of their lives. Certainly, it can be done with the proper attitude, but you can't go out collecting mansions and yachts.

Players in the Calipari One and Done era at Kentucky have not had enough time to amass huge career statistics but Wall, Cousins, Davis, Bledsoe, Towns, etc. are well on their way at what are even now relatively tender ages. Bledsoe is the oldest at 26. Calipari has only been there 6 or 7 years even though it seems like eons.

127 players in the NBA averaged double digit scoring this season. 10 of them played for Calipari at Kentucky. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist would've been 11 if he had played more games. I'd say those guys are leaving with some decent preparation.

I personally think the move of having every player explore their draft stock is pure genius. Why would a one and done type player ever go anywhere else at this point?

[DonRocks]

Why would a one and done type player ever go anywhere else at this point?

I agree with you - given that players *must* wait a year after high school, it's the strongest recruiting technique there is. (I was also thinking the Calipari era hadn't had time to come to fruition, but just didn't have time to research it properly.)

[DaveO]

Kevin Grevey, former Kentucky grad, ex Bullet, and ex NBA champ might not have scored 8500 points but I bet his Va restaurant has served over 1 million burgers and beers. It's a great place to watch a game.

[MC Horoscope]

I love the first weekend of the tournament, but I lose interest quickly by the time it gets to Sweet 16 and Elite 8 weekend. Don't know why. This year seems to have a lot of point differentials of 12 or more. Who's left? Virginia, Oklahoma? North Carolina?

[DonRocks]

Kevin Grevey, former Kentucky grad, ex Bullet, and ex NBA champ might not have scored 8500 points but I bet his Va restaurant has served over 1 million burgers and beers. It's a great place to watch a game.

I'd like to go off-topic and recount my tale of Kevin Grevey, just because he took an entire night off from his life for a charitable cause. Phil Chenier and Johnny Holliday (*), too.

(*) Note his real last name - it was right around "that time," too. Shhh .... He is *such* a nice man.

[DonRocks]

I love the first weekend of the tournament, but I lose interest quickly by the time it gets to Sweet 16 and Elite 8 weekend. Don't know why. This year seems to have a lot of point differentials of 12 or more. Who's left? Virginia, Oklahoma? North Carolina?

Here's the 2015-2016 Bracket down to the Final Four:

[MC Horoscope]

Lots of surprises this weekend! Sure didn't see Syracuse and Villanova in there.

[DonRocks]

 

This is an *excellent* video about the Duke-Butler NCAA Championship Game in 2010 - it is heart-stopping to watch:

 

"Inches from Immortality: How Gordon Hayward and Butler Almost Stopped Duke" by B.R. Studios on bleacherreport.com

[DaveO]

Just out:  ESPN ranks the greatest NCAA champs of all time   Two items of note:  In the introductory paragraphs they reference why older teams dominate their highest rankings:  A).  Players stayed in school for 4 years. B..) Recruiting was improved to identify the best high school players around the nation.  I don't know about the second point, but I agree with the first.

The second item of note is the picture:  Coach John Wooden, Bill Walton, and another tall guy....Swen Nater, who virtually was second string to Walton that entire year (if not always) never starting.  He was a 6-11 inch guy who was later a starting center in the NBA for a number of years.   Walton, ostensibly 6' 11" is a good bit taller than him in the picture.  Well either Nater is shorter than that listed height or Walton is taller.

I think the paragraph that follows the initial explanation says it all.  Take a wide number of former college players now in the Pro's and put them on their college teams for a couple of more years.   Then its quite possible or probable that today's best college teams and NCAA champs would rival or be better than the teams of the past.  I can't list who would rank first, second, third or fourth and so on, but I concur with the ESPN perspective.

[DonRocks]

I concur with the ESPN perspective.

I do too, mostly, but Michigan State with Earvin Johnson and Greg Kelser #48? Hmm... Kelser was to Johnson what Pippen was to Jordan.

UCLA is like the New York Yankees.

Walton was a 7-footer - he's lost a few inches due to back issues. It would be just like John Wooden to bill him as 6'11" to gain a psychological advantage on his opponents (who didn't have to worry about "facing that 7-foot guy").

Swen Nater wasn't a superstar, but he was a rock-solid pro (who averaged more in the pros than he did in college!) - to have him as your *back-up* center is one heck of a luxury.

I wonder if Abraham Lincoln could have been in the NBA. I also wonder if I'm the first person ever to say this.

[farmer john]

Nater had way more career rebounds than Walton even if you leave out his ABA years. (Yes, this means absolutely nothing.)

I am willing to give the UCLA teams the benefit of the doubt but there is absolutely no way that (admittedly unbeaten) Indiana team is among the top 10 of all time let alone the top 5. Quinn Buckner was the most productive NBA player of the lot... I would take the Maryland team with Elmore, McMillen, Lucas et al over them 7 days a week and that team didn't even make it to the Big Dance.

[DonRocks]

Nater had way more career rebounds than Walton even if you leave out his ABA years. (Yes, this means absolutely nothing.)

I am willing to give the UCLA teams the benefit of the doubt but there is absolutely no way that (admittedly unbeaten) Indiana team is among the top 10 of all time let alone the top 5. Quinn Buckner was the most productive NBA player of the lot... I would take the Maryland team with Elmore, McMillen, Lucas et al over them 7 days a week and that team didn't even make it to the Big Dance.

Don't forget though that that Indiana team had Scott May, NCAA Player of the Year, Gold Medalist, #2 Pick in the NBA Draft, and All-Rookie First Team. 36-0 is pretty legendary - they took on all comers, and didn't falter one single time. Hell, Kent Benson was the *#1 Pick* in the NBA Draft.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but they're pretty darned well-regarded - no team in NCAA history has a better record.

I can't disagree with Walton's Bruins being #1 despite Walton not having had a truly great NBA career, so I'm not sure NBA performance comes into play in this list all that much. The sad truth is that Walton, with his hyper-growth frame, probably peaked in college before his body simply broke down - he might have otherwise been the greatest basketball player in history. I was ten years old, and still remember being in awe of him - I am *so* glad he's out of pain - I could not be happier for him: 2009 was one *fuck* of a year.

[DaveO]

Just out:  ESPN ranks the greatest NCAA champs of all time   Two items of note:  In the introductory paragraphs they reference why older teams dominate their highest rankings:  A).  Players stayed in school for 4 years. B..) Recruiting was improved to identify the best high school players around the nation.  I don't know about the second point, but I agree with the first.

I do too, mostly, but Michigan State with Earvin Johnson and Greg Kelser #48?

I am willing to give the UCLA teams the benefit of the doubt but there is absolutely no way that (admittedly unbeaten) Indiana team is among the top 10 of all time let alone the top 5. Quinn Buckner was the most productive NBA player of the lot... I would take the Maryland team with Elmore, McMillen, Lucas et al over them 7 days a week and that team didn't even make it to the Big Dance.

I can't list who would rank first, second, third or fourth and so on, but I concur with the ESPN perspective.

During the 70's I watched a crazy volume of basketball games...pros and college.  Loved the college game back in those days.  For recreation I played endless pickup and in leagues.  (crap--I should have searched for a job in that field...I spent all my extra time dwelling on it...ruined relationships w/ g/f's b/c I'd watch late night college games on weekdays and weekends.   Ah well.

Don:  You took my words out of context.  I'm not going to rank teams in that ESPN list.  I concur with the reasoning of the ESPN list...primarily the teams of the 70's and 80's and somewhat into the 90's should rank higher than today's teams....they had players that played into their 3rd and 4th years...and another point...those teams stayed in systems longer.   They Implemented their coaches plans better over each season.

Anyway that Indiana undefeated team.   Where should they rank?   I'm not going to rank them as others...but this is what I recall.   They had multiple upper classmen.   They all played together for a long time.  Bobby Knight had a great system in college in those years.   His teams picked for one another endlessly.  That Indiana team was very workman and really thicker....bulkier guys.    They had a great season the year before...and despite losing some stars..they had stars returning who were talented, bulky and skilled at running Knights system.  They worked Knight's system, they picked like crazy, they had good players, and they wore opponents down.  They also won a couple of lucky games.  They were good.

I didn't like them.  But they were good.  Where should they rank among the NCAA champs?   I don't know.  But they were a good college team....maybe great.  They were better at the team game and the game their coach employed than they were as individual talents.

Now here is another recollection.  In the early 70's the networks started playing college games a lot more.  One could watch a lot of college basketball.  Sometime in the early 70's I recall watching a game between a loaded Long Beach State team that played a loaded Marquette (I believe) team.   Long Beach had talented big men who were thick and bulky.  Marquette (or whomever) had talented big men who were demonstrably thinner.  It was a great ferocious game.  Much of the game was played at the rim with a host of front court men fighting for rebounds.  The thicker Long Beach players wore out the thinner Marquette players and won in the end.   So it was with that Indiana team.  They had players who could wear down the opposition.

One last funny item.  While I watched those Walton teams I mostly couldn't recall who played with him.  I looked up the team and looked up some players once their names popped up.  A teammate to Walton was a starter and talented player, Larry Farmer.  Farmer was talented drafted by the pros but never played as a pro.  He went into coaching and was an assistant at UCLA for a number of years....and after a while became head coach there.

Here is what occurred:

UCLA head basketball coach

He was the head coach of the University of California, Los Angeles from 1981 to 1984, guiding them to a 61"“23 (.726) record. He had recruited Earvin "Magic" Johnson to come play at UCLA, but then told Johnson to hold off on a visit as he was more interested in Albert King.^%5B4%5D Neither played for UCLA.

When Magic finished high school he was considered one of the 3 best basketball players in high school.  Albert King (Bernard King's younger brother) was one of the two others (Albert played for some very talented U MD teams).

Farmer passed on Magic, recruited Albert King and didn't get either one and he had a short career coaching at UCLA.   hmmm...recruiting matters.

As to which NCAA team is best ever....I don't know.  I recall those Walton UCLA teams.  He was freaking great in college and dominant in every way.  He made teams better.  He was not a super duper superior athlete but he was a phenomenal basketball player..with a basketball IQ that would have rivaled that of Einstein in Physics.   A team with a superstar that ESPN did rank high was that NC State team with David Thompson.  He was an athletic freak with great basketball skills.  Glad to see that team ranked highly.  Also the early 80's teams with North Carolina with Jordan and endless stars, Georgetown with Ewing and others and Houston with Olajuwon and Drexler were teams with amazingly talented college players!!  at least IMHO.

[DonRocks]

When Magic finished high school he was considered one of the 3 best basketball players in high school.  Albert King (Bernard King's younger brother) was one of the two others (Albert played for some very talented U MD teams). 

If I recall correctly, the other was Gene Banks (I remember both King and Banks being lauded as the top 2 players in the year they graduated). When Maryland got King, I thought he'd be The Messiah, but he never quite lived up to his billing (refer also to Jo Jo Hunter - the first time I saw him shoot a jump shot, and that left hand came completely off the ball, I knew he was probably overrated).

[DaveO]

If I recall correctly, the other was Gene Banks (I remember both King and Banks being lauded as the top 2 players in the year they graduated). When Maryland got King, I thought he'd be The Messiah, but he never quite lived up to his billing (refer also to Jo Jo Hunter - the first time I saw him shoot a jump shot, and that left hand came completely off the ball, I knew he was probably overrated). 

yep.  Banks was the third going to Duke.  All coranked as number 1 as I recall.  Banks, mediocre pro career...or worse than mediocre...just not that good in the pros.  Albert King...a somewhat better pro career.  Magic....basically on everyone's all time top five pro team list.

A lot of hype and trying to predict the future when it comes to predicting the careers of most high school kids.    When Walton graduated from high school Sports Illustrated featured Tom McMillan on its cover..." best high school basketball player...highest ranked college projected basketball player".  They got that one wrong.

[DonRocks]

yep.  Banks was the third going to Duke.  All coranked as number 1 as I recall.  Banks, mediocre pro career...or worse than mediocre...just not that good in the pros.  Albert King...a somewhat better pro career.  Magic....basically on everyone's all time top five pro team list.

A lot of hype and trying to predict the future when it comes to predicting the careers of most high school kids.    When Walton graduated from high school Sports Illustrated featured Tom McMillan on its cover..." best high school basketball player...highest ranked college projected basketball player".  They got that one wrong.

I remember posting this last year. I think high-school recruiting has gotten a lot better in the past twenty years, but it's still something of a crap shoot because NBA Guards are playing Post-Up Centers in high school, so that alone makes it really tough to predict.

[farmer john]

When Magic finished high school he was considered one of the 3 best basketball players in high school.  Albert King (Bernard King's younger brother) was one of the two others (Albert played for some very talented U MD teams).

Farmer passed on Magic, recruited Albert King and didn't get either one and he had a short career coaching at UCLA.   hmmm...recruiting matters.

As to which NCAA team is best ever....I don't know.  I recall those Walton UCLA teams.  He was freaking great in college and dominant in every way.  He made teams better.  He was not a super duper superior athlete but he was a phenomenal basketball player..with a basketball IQ that would have rivaled that of Einstein in Physics.   A team with a superstar that ESPN did rank high was that NC State team with David Thompson.  He was an athletic freak with great basketball skills.  Glad to see that team ranked highly.  Also the early 80's teams with North Carolina with Jordan and endless stars, Georgetown with Ewing and others and Houston with Olajuwon and Drexler were teams with amazingly talented college players!!  at least IMHO.

One of my first memories of watching basketball is Thompson hitting his head against Pitt and coming back to the bench in the second half wearing that huge bandage. I was 8 at the time.

This article offers an interesting perspective on the UCLA-NCSU game later in the same tournament. It calls out Walton for essentially undermining Wooden's coaching and as a result letting State have a chance.

The King/Banks recruiting class is one of the first I really remember following... I couldn't wait each year for the Street and Smith's basketball issue to come out- it was the only place I knew back then to get recruiting info and I ate it up like candy.

[DonRocks]

One of my first memories of watching basketball is Thompson hitting his head against Pitt and coming back to the bench in the second half wearing that huge bandage. I was 8 at the time.

Did he hit his head on the rim? Never mind - I just read the article.

I've heard an apocryphal story that Wilt Chamberlain once grabbed a silver dollar off the top of a backboard, but I'm not sure I believe it.

[lovehockey]

The second semi and the final is going to be on TBS.

CBS should be ashamed.

[DaveO]

Go Nova. Don't get Syracused as UVa did......and done. One team from the Big Priest....errr East!!!

[DaveO]

One of my first memories of watching basketball is Thompson hitting his head against Pitt and coming back to the bench in the second half wearing that huge bandage. I was 8 at the time.

This article offers an interesting perspective on the UCLA-NCSU game later in the same tournament. It calls out Walton for essentially undermining Wooden's coaching and as a result letting State have a chance.

The King/Banks recruiting class is one of the first I really remember following... I couldn't wait each year for the Street and Smith's basketball issue to come out- it was the only place I knew back then to get recruiting info and I ate it up like candy.

Great article, Farmer John. Thanks.    Its clearly from the North Carolina perspective.   That is interesting.  Lefty Driesell and the Md players felt somewhat different....always going into North Carolina for the tournament and feeling that the deck was stacked against them and every other ACC team not from North Carolina.  An interesting perspective of which I had no awareness.

That game was intense, blistering, fast paced, well played...and starters from both teams played most of the game.  They were exhausted at the end.  I imagine the MD players more than the NC State players, with MD having played 3 games in a row and NC State only 2.

I really don't recall specifics of that game.  Time fades memory....but it was incredibly emotional.   I had a letdown during the entire NCAA's and NC States run to the finals.   Heck....I don't recall and probably didn't know how Walton convinced teammates to ignore Coach Wooden in the semis.

Thompson was one of those once in a generation freaks.  His talent level would rival the best of all time.  His career shortened by drugs and injury.  U Md's best player, Lucas, who was a darn good NBA guard and talent at the time, also messed up his career with drugs and alcohol.

Once in a blue moon some network replays that game.  Its worth watching.  Amazing intensity and quality of play.   Unfortunate result in my perspective   Ha ha.   But a game for the ages.

Also that one and done nature of the ACC tournament and the restriction of only one team making the NCAA's was so powerful in the minds of everyone in ACC  country.  Over here in the mid Atlantic it seemed more important than the national tournament.   In recent years Lucas, Elmore, McMillan have all spoken regretfully and emotionally about that game and jeepers its 40+ years later.   That game was intense.

[DaveO]

Nova-Carolina. Very well played exciting game. Great matchup.

[DonRocks]

Villanova! I recently posted about Butler almost upsetting Duke - is Villanova's buzzer-beater even bigger than that shot would have been?

This was surely a Top 5 NCAA Final ending (and I'm not even thinking of, or comparing, any other game - it just *had* to be).

"Villanova Clips North Carolina on Buzzer Beater for National Championship" by Nicole Auerbach on usatoday.com (the video is in that article).

Kris Jenkins, btw, was born in Upper Marlboro, and went to Gonzaga HS. Here's a good personal-interest story:

"The Family of Kris Jenkins and Nate Britt - the Adopted Brothers Playing for Villanova and UNC - had Fantastic Reactions to the Championship-Winning Shot" by Scott Davis on finance.yahoo.com

[farmer john]

Butler beating Duke would've been WAY bigger. Nova over Carolina is barely an upset.

[Steve R.]

True.  But this was a very very good game to watch as a fan of college basketball.  Not only were both teams putting out 110%, but these are basically guys who won't be seen in the NBA and aren't top draft picks.  A very nice change.  Secondly, my vote for best shot was definitely the UNC 3 pointer that tied the game and made us all think that it was going to OT.  To think that Villanova's ethos of it being a team game would lead to a high scoring guard shoveling the ball to a teammate with 3 seconds left is just perfect.  As was the shot.  Heartbreaking for UNC but I gotta say that I love that Rollie got to see another championship team.  

[DaveO]

Ditto to EVERYTHING Steve R said above.  Excellent game, competition, intensity, strategies and implementation into a very competitive watchable match and game.  While I've enjoyed college basketball I didn't catch a lot of this year's tournament.  Regardless I'm a fan of "One Shining Moment"....and if you also enjoy them

heeere's 30 of them.....