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Interesting rumor. Yelp's POI (point of interest) data would be highly accurate even compared to Google's in terms of mapping data for restaurants. However is it worth billions more than Nokia's? Whoa was on the road today and just checked news.

"Uber Joins The Bidding For Here, Nokia's Digital Mapping Service" by Mark Scott and Mike Isacc on nytimes.com

 

lion, I'm not sure what you're saying here - can you restate your point?

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Sorry responding from mobile. In mapping services there are two main types of valuable data, roads and POI. Nokia has a valuable data set because it's mapping data is annually updated for roads world wide. Yelp has a valuable data set because of accurate POI data. The evaluation for these companies being worth 2-3 billion US dollars comes from how these data sets can be used or monetized. Nokia's Here data set is a main competitor to Google Maps at this point in the world wide accuracy level.

I was checking the current news on the rumor Nokia's Here after writing the above comment and was surprised to read the Uber rumor. Earlier in the week speculation was Apple might try and purchase it.

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Bottom line is a business is worth something if it is profitable...

That's how it SHOULD be. Even how it once was. But, since the late 90s, that bedrock has been shaken. Now, a business is worth something (to someone or to a few) if they can IPO and sell shares. That's the new tradition exemplified by "new economy" stalwarts like Facebook, Groupon, Amazon and Yelp. Hence why we call it "funny money."

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I have always thought that a restaurant "overlay" on Google Maps would be an awesome tool. I don't think Yelp would be good content for such an overlay, but if every restaurant in a particular area can be instantly depicted on a map, with drill-downs for reliable reviews, that would be an awesome tool. We have discussed such on this site in the past.

I once found myself in Bethesda -- remember, I live in Virginia, so Maryland is this unidentifiable confusion of roads and communities to me -- and I wanted to find a central place to meet family and friends for a meal. We settled on and made reservations at the ear-shatteringly-loud Redwood, because the Dining Guide refused to let its readers know that Jaleo and Lebanese Taverna were also within a few steps, because those fine local establishments were confined to the wasteland known as Multiple Locations.

Now, picture an interactive map of that neighborhood with all restuarants on the map, linked to reviews and websites and noise levels and menus and opentable for reservations, all in one spot! Would that be worth a lot of money to Google? Or Yahoo?

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Definitely lots of funny money at play here but have to remember that an IPO changes everything. Especially in terms of the discussion about "coffers." Once a company is floated, founders and significant equity holder coffers are very different from the corporate coffers. In many (but not all) cases like this, the former do incredibly well while the latter struggle, as you root cause. Also, I do believe it very possible to generate sustainable profit while not crossing the ethical and societal lines Yelp has crossed. FWIW.

If Yelp sells the founders and holders of stock before the original IPO will make a lot of money.  So it is when companies go public and sell.

I referenced Yelp in the original thread as it is a highly controversial website with enormous impact in the restaurant industry and with small businesses in general.

A Harvard research project from 2011 found that a 1 star improvement in yelp reviews increased restaurant revenues by 5-9%.   How many websites offer that impact?   Yelp's sales efforts have made it the bane of restaurants and small businesses.  Its manipulation of reviews showing for a business subject to how one responds to its advertising is notorious.  AND HATED.   Yet generally the laws protect it.  It gets away with business practises that are often ascribed to the mafia!!

Its business practices, actions, its popularity and notoriety will be highlighted in a documentary soon to be released.   "The billion dollar bully"   a controversial title.

Interesting rumor. Yelp's POI (point of interest) data would be highly accurate even compared to Google's in terms of mapping data for restaurants. However is it worth billions more than Nokia's? Whoa was on the road today and just checked news.

"Uber Joins The Bidding For Here, Nokia's Digital Mapping Service" by Mark Scott and Mike Isacc on nytimes.com

I agree with Lion.  Its POI information is great.  (POI= where businesses are located.)   Yelp and google most definitely have the best data available to consumers on where businesses or points of interest are located.  They put a lot of effort into creating accurate info and getting it right and updated.

I periodically test both systems with updates in this region.  They update accurately at about the same speed, with slight differences and/or glitches subject to their different methodologies.  From Yelp's perspective doing so is a significant cost. less so for google, which is infinitely wealthier than yelp and also manages to do a lot of the updating through a volunteer system that doesn't cost them anything.

I'm not sure about the retail value of mapping.  Clearly institutions and the government are significant buyers of mapping tools.

Yelp is a significant website but its a miniscule ant relative to Google, and its growth seems to be blocked by google.  It was already highlighted as the target of google strong arming per a leak from the FTC.  Ultimately Yelp has a difficult time selling its ads and ultimately making a profit.  Buying from yelp is  an expensive proposition per visit or observation relative to other sources and ultimately,whether businesses realize it or not, a business is probably and potentially seen anywhere's from 3-15 times more often on google than on yelp, even restaurants.

So if Yelp sells it would have some impact on the restaurant industry as it is so impactful.  I think Apple should purchase it.  They could incorporate its search capability into Apple Maps and make it a formidable mapping/search competitor to google.  Despite their own growing pains with creating an accurate mapping system they already have a significant presence in mapping apps, and they have it with the more affluent part of the population.

Such a move would reduce the monopoly that google has on search and local search in particular.  Those two giants would continue to take pot shots at one another.  Hopefully, were that to occur they could soften the typical yelp strong arm sales approach and make them more like a reasonable citizen.

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I agree with Lion.  Its POI information is great.  (POI= where businesses are located.)   Yelp and google most definitely have the best data available to consumers on where businesses or points of interest are located.  They put a lot of effort into creating accurate info and getting it right and updated.

I periodically test both systems with updates in this region.  They update accurately at about the same speed, with slight differences and/or glitches subject to their different methodologies.  From Yelp's perspective doing so is a significant cost. less so for google, which is infinitely wealthier than yelp and also manages to do a lot of the updating through a volunteer system that doesn't cost them anything.

I'm not sure about the retail value of mapping.  Clearly institutions and the government are significant buyers of mapping tools.

Yelp is a significant website but its a miniscule ant relative to Google, and its growth seems to be blocked by google.  It was already highlighted as the target of google strong arming per a leak from the FTC.  Ultimately Yelp has a difficult time selling its ads and ultimately making a profit.  Buying from yelp is  an expensive proposition per visit or observation relative to other sources and ultimately,whether businesses realize it or not, a business is probably and potentially seen anywhere's from 3-15 times more often on google than on yelp, even restaurants.

Dave, I'm curious as to why you're assuming (or seem to be assuming) that Yelp has its own mapping system; I always thought it was simply tied in with an existing system (there's a "copyright Microsoft" on the bottom-right of their maps, for example). I agree that the Yelp interface to mapping is comprehensive and easy to use, but is that interface not just a front-end? Like AOL was nothing more than a glorified portal into the internet?

If Yelp actually has a proprietary mapping system, I would be stunned; with the existing tools that are out there, I cannot imagine anyone re-inventing the wheel. I'm either mis-reading you, or am just not understanding something. Supplying an interface to an existing mapping system is no more difficult than very basic computer programming, followed up with massive, vigilant, data entry.

I started with a knowledge base of *zero*, and was able to learn enough to do this in less than one hour (you can even see the crooked line at the bottom that I drew like a clumsy oaf). What am I missing? If I had even a moderately capable computer consultant - someone who has taken a few vocational courses in the right language - we could have the exact same mapping system done for our entire dining guide in less than a week (granted, it would be a long week for the programmer, simply because we have thousands of restaurants that need to be input - but once the basic system is set up, all you do is type in the address. That's it!)

Sooner or later, some bright investor is going to figure out that we *are* Yelp, minus the volume, plus the substance, minus the bad reputation. There are absolutely no barriers or technical obstacles when it comes to scaling up to a national level. It's just a matter of 1) programming a nice-looking front-end (some decision-making, followed by one week of actual programming), 2) massive data entry, and 3) an enormous amount of marketing to get people active from around the country. If anyone's immediate reaction is, "Well, why aren't you .... ?" My response is, "Wait ten years and see where we are." I have some issues I need to take care of that are more important to me than money or notoriety (which, by the way, nobody seems to be interested in), and if I ever finish taking care of them, then I can pretty much promise you and everyone else that we're going to be a high-impact company. But if they aren't taken care of - which is a distinct possibility - we'll forever be what we are *unless* someone contacts me and convinces me they can pull it off. And if we're forever what we currently are ... that's A-OK with me because I love this community, and quite frankly, money is not going to buy me happiness (I told myself, when I was 23 years old and just starting my career: 'If you're not happy right now, then you never will be.' It's a credo I've always lived by, and I've never once regretted it). All I want is not to be old, sick, and dependent on others - and it would be nice if I had something to help Matt (he's fully aware that music majors tend not to make a lot of money, and his entire life, I've emphasized happiness over wealth, so I'll feel responsible for any upcoming poverty on his end :unsure:).

I once found myself in Bethesda -- remember, I live in Virginia, so Maryland is this unidentifiable confusion of roads and communities to me -- and I wanted to find a central place to meet family and friends for a meal. We settled on and made reservations at the ear-shatteringly-loud Redwood, because the Dining Guide refused to let its readers know that Jaleo and Lebanese Taverna were also within a few steps, because those fine local establishments were confined to the wasteland known as Multiple Locations.

This is, has been, and will continue to be on my "To Do" list. If you were to volunteer, we could have everything done, exactly the way you want it to be done, in about four hours. The sad truth is, with the glaring exceptions of Pat (membership) cheezepowder (openings), and maybe a couple forum hosts doing some work that I'm unaware of, I am, to the best of my knowledge, propping up this sagging behemoth all by myself. It consumes every waking hour that I let it consume, and I could clone myself three times over and still not get done what needs to be done - so I keep it to the bare essentials because I know I can sustain it while I wait for someone else to come along:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Venture Capitalists take note: no employees, no expenses, no new competitors due to 10 years of content, no marketing ever done, no skeletons in the closet, no hindrances to growth, no obstacles except the lack of marketing and manpower. (Sorry, ladies, I went for alliteration over gender equality.)  :)

Market Caps as of today: TripAdvisor $11.76 billion Yelp $3.73 billion, Vox Media (the owner of Eater) $400 million, Angie's List $350 million

A statistical comparison of our Washington, DC Forum with Eater's Worldwide Forums.

A 3-4 day sample of our website Highlights v. Eater's same list of "All The Highlights."

Venture Capitalists take note: no employees, no expenses, no new competitors due to 10 years of content, no marketing ever done, no skeletons in the closet, no hindrances to growth, no obstacles except the lack of marketing and manpower. (Sorry, ladies, I went for alliteration over gender equality.)  :)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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I have always thought that a restaurant "overlay" on Google Maps would be an awesome tool. I don't think Yelp would be good content for such an overlay, but if every restaurant in a particular area can be instantly depicted on a map, with drill-downs for reliable reviews, that would be an awesome tool. We have discussed such on this site in the past.

I once found myself in Bethesda -- remember, I live in Virginia, so Maryland is this unidentifiable confusion of roads and communities to me -- and I wanted to find a central place to meet family and friends for a meal. We settled on and made reservations at the ear-shatteringly-loud Redwood, because the Dining Guide refused to let its readers know that Jaleo and Lebanese Taverna were also within a few steps, because those fine local establishments were confined to the wasteland known as Multiple Locations.

Now, picture an interactive map of that neighborhood with all restuarants on the map, linked to reviews and websites and noise levels and menus and opentable for reservations, all in one spot! Would that be worth a lot of money to Google? Or Yahoo?

Wouldn't that be nice.  In fact last Autumn Google did THE EXACT OPPOSITE.  If one searches for a restaurant, or restaurants in Bethesda, Google's first page view is a list of only 3 restaurants without a map.  The details for each of the 3 restaurants EXCLUDED links to the restaurant, a map, a precise address, or a phone number.  If you are in Bethesda and from foreign shores such as Va, how would you know where a restaurant is when the google info on the first page says....Wisconsin Avenue????   Long road.  Is there parking nearby or not???   Not very helpful info.

I called that the "Crap Pack"  or "No Info Pack" of restaurant info  (also the way they showed hotels).   It wasn't done to be helpful, of that we can be sure.  It was done for other reasons...

I suspect it was done to further monetize the restaurant vertical for google and to push any other information further down the page and to not be seen.

But that is another story.   ;

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Dave, I'm curious as to why you're assuming (or seem to be assuming) that Yelp has its own mapping system; I always thought it was simply tied in with an existing system (there's a "copyright Microsoft" on the bottom-right of their maps, for example). I agree that the Yelp interface to mapping is comprehensive and easy to use, but is that interface not just a front-end? Like AOL was nothing more than a glorified portal into the internet?

If Yelp actually has a proprietary mapping system, I would be stunned; with the existing tools that are out there, I cannot imagine anyone re-inventing the wheel. I'm either mis-reading you, or am just not understanding something. Supplying an interface to an existing mapping system is no more difficult than very basic computer programming, followed up with massive, vigilant, data entry.

I started with a knowledge base of *zero*, and was able to learn enough to do this in less than one hour (you can even see the crooked line at the bottom that I drew like a clumsy oaf). Venture capitalists, take note. What am I missing? If I had even a moderately capable computer consultant - someone who has taken a few vocational courses in the right language - we could have the exact same mapping system done for our entire dining guide in less than a week (granted, it would be a long week for the programmer, simply because we have thousands of restaurants that need to be input - but once the basic system is set up, all you do is type in the address. That's it!)

Sooner or later, some bright investor is going to figure out that we *are* Yelp, minus the volume, plus the substance, minus the bad reputation. There are absolutely no barriers or technical obstacles when it comes to scaling up to a national level. It's just a matter of 1) programming a nice-looking front-end (some decision-making, followed by one week of actual programming), 2) massive data entry, and 3) an enormous amount of marketing to get people active from around the country. If anyone's immediate reaction is, "Well, why aren't you .... ?" My response is, "Wait ten years and see where we are." I have some issues I need to take care of that are more important to me than money or notoriety (which, by the way, nobody seems to be interested in), and if I ever finish taking care of them, then I can pretty much promise you and everyone else that we're going to be a high-impact company. But if they aren't taken care of - which is a distinct possibility - we'll forever be what we are *unless* someone contacts me and convinces me they can pull it off. And if we're forever what we currently are ... that's A-OK with me because I love this community.

Don:

Yelp, like Google, purchased original mapping data and POI data from Mapping sources.  They generate their own maps with that data.  They can update and adjust them.   You can go into a POI (point of interest) such as a restaurant and click on an "edit" button and then make changes to the data.  Possibly the location on a map is wrong, the address is wrong, or the restaurant is closed.  You can edit it.  Their internal process will then review that data and if it agrees with your edits will create updated information.  Google and Bing among others do similar things.  They just have slightly different methods for updating the data.

It takes a lot of time, money, and manpower.   Quite a number of sites used to do this but the costs became prohibitive.  I'm sure Mapquest's maps have a mere fraction of updates and accuracy that Yelp or Google have.  Frankly Bing doesn't do nearly the job that Google or Yelp do to update the data.

BTW:  The current head of Yahoo was a former significant Google employee who among other things had a lot to do with creating Google Local/Maps/ Google local data.   When she went to Yahoo she passed on emphasizing local.  She was familiar with the manpower needs and costs.  Yahoo's local data is pretty lousy relative to Google or Yelp.  As with others very weak on updates.

In fact, from what I've learned over the years with regard to the conversion from hard copy maps with accurate road and POI data is that the manpower issue is among the thorniest and most costly of issues.  ADC, the business that used to create book maps of this area and much of the Mid Atlantic had a lot of personnel devoted to quality control and data.  As the web mapping companies developed they hired away a lot of these people in the earlier 2000's.  But they would use something like one person to do the work that 3,4, or 5 would do.

Original web mapping products were miserable.  It took google about 4 years to get a good level of accuracy into their maps.  Apple Maps, which was introduced about 1 year ago or longer is now going through this process of improving accuracy.  The devil is evidently in the details.

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Don:

Yelp, like Google, purchased original mapping data and POI data from Mapping sources.  They generate their own maps with that data.  They can update and adjust them.   You can go into a POI (point of interest) such as a restaurant and click on an "edit" button and then make changes to the data.  Possibly the location on a map is wrong, the address is wrong, or the restaurant is closed.  You can edit it.  Their internal process will then review that data and if it agrees with your edits will create updated information.  Google and Bing among others do similar things.  They just have slightly different methods for updating the data.

It takes a lot of time, money, and manpower.   Quite a number of sites used to do this but the costs became prohibitive.  I'm sure Mapquest's maps have a mere fraction of updates and accuracy that Yelp or Google have.  Frankly Bing doesn't do nearly the job that Google or Yelp do to update the data.

Having crowd-sourced address updates is a wonderful tool for Yelp - I just went and saw the form you fill in, and am very impressed. What we do via PMs and posts, they do via a standardized entry form - their system is a lot better. :) I always wondered how Yelp had such reliable information, and now I know.

I can verify your account that "manpower" for this type of thing is the one asset for which there are no shortcuts. When dealing with massive amounts of data, data quality is nearly always an issue (EPA's databases, I can verify (since I wrote the retrieval software), are *full* of errors - their data quality is cringe-worthy). Technology (such as Yelp's form) can make it easier, and it helps immeasurably that they don't have to physically type in the contact information themselves. In essence, for this one, time-consuming item, their "manpower" is every Yelp member, pitching in. The way I get around this is simply linking to the restaurants' websites or Facebook pages - if I had to keep addresses current, I'd have to throw in the towel. Assuming Yelp covers 50 million businesses, every single keystroke that can be automated or eliminated (assuming 5 characters per word) saves them 10 million words of typing. Imagine having to type a 10-million word paper - that would be like typing in War and Peace 20 times. And that's just eliminating *1* character.

Despite the heft of your post, I still don't see why actually owning mapping data is important - I'm probably missing something obvious, but to me, mapping is a lot like Wikipedia: you reference what you need, and you're done. At some point in time, maps will be in the public-domain (are they already?) - it's not something I'd want to invest in. However, there will always be a need and a market for specialized versions of things.

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Having crowd-sourced address updates is a wonderful tool for Yelp - I just went and saw the form you fill in, and am very impressed. What we do via PMs and posts, they do via a standardized entry form - their system is a lot better. :) I always wondered how Yelp had such reliable information, and now I know.

..........

Despite the heft of your post, I still don't see why actually owning mapping data is important - I'm probably missing something obvious, but to me, mapping is a lot like Wikipedia: you reference what you need, and you're done. At some point in time, maps will be in the public-domain (are they already?) - it's not something I'd want to invest in. However, there will always be a need and a market for specialized versions of things.

Google, Bing, all sorts of sites have something similar.  Interestingly I've found that Google and Yelp get lots of feedback, seemingly more so than Bing.

On the importance of maps:   People use them, people like them.  Nuff said.

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I have always thought that a restaurant "overlay" on Google Maps would be an awesome tool. I don't think Yelp would be good content for such an overlay, but if every restaurant in a particular area can be instantly depicted on a map, with drill-downs for reliable reviews, that would be an awesome tool. We have discussed such on this site in the past.

I once found myself in Bethesda -- remember, I live in Virginia, so Maryland is this unidentifiable confusion of roads and communities to me -- and I wanted to find a central place to meet family and friends for a meal. We settled on and made reservations at the ear-shatteringly-loud Redwood, because the Dining Guide refused to let its readers know that Jaleo and Lebanese Taverna were also within a few steps, because those fine local establishments were confined to the wasteland known as Multiple Locations.

Now, picture an interactive map of that neighborhood with all restuarants on the map, linked to reviews and websites and noise levels and menus and opentable for reservations, all in one spot! Would that be worth a lot of money to Google? Or Yahoo?

Actually yelp's maps give all that data to you in groups of 10 per page on a map, albeit the reviews are just yelps  EEEEEEK

RWBooneJr:  [turns head]  Cough, cough.

To be somewhat more precise than "cough, cough";  Rich Boone's site does that with excellent links full of information;  HEY A LINK to conversations at DR.com, other valuable links and puts it on a map.

Geez, KN:  He designed it FOR YOU!!!!!!   :D.......and those with similar interests.

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On the importance of maps:   People use them, people like them.  Nuff said.

Dave, I'm honestly not trying to argue; I'm trying to understand. I don't question the importance of maps, but what is the importance of owning them, as opposed to using someone else's? There are copyrights from Nokia and Microsoft in the bottom-right of Yelp's maps, so there must be something about them that's licensed. To me, owning a mapping system seems like owning a search engine. This is why automobile companies have tier one suppliers, for example: they literally don't want to reinvent the wheel. (That was funny.)

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Dave, I'm honestly not trying to argue; I'm trying to understand. I don't question the importance of maps, but what is the importance of owning them, as opposed to using someone else's? There are copyrights from Nokia and Microsoft in the bottom-right of Yelp's maps, so there must be something about them that's licensed. To me, owning a mapping system seems like owning a search engine. This is why automobile companies have tier one suppliers, for example: they literally don't want to reinvent the wheel. (That was funny.)

Don:  I can't give you a legal response.  I'm not sure if yelp owns the maps or has a different legal right to the map data they have received.  One thing they do,and have a right to do is to update data.  I'm also aware that groups such as yelp, google, and apple, as an example can and do get mapping data from multiple sources, and it can and often includes maps and data of the same locations.

I suspect they purchased mapping data.  The purchasing and use rights are something that is subject to negotiation and change. For instance, I learned that  either late last year or earlier this year, t google changed the nature of its purchase and use rights with regard to data (or mapping) from various data/mapping sources from various foreign nations.  I can't give you all the details on those relationships other than to indicate the relationships changed and my recollection of the nature of the change was that Google had more control.

Now, is mapping valuable in its own right???   Here is a crazy story I heard a year or two ago from some guys with a satellite mapping company.  They were contracted out by some financial or debt collection company, or something in the finance industry, and provided maps of wealthy suburban areas highlighting homes with pools.     Some folks were trying to "make a buck" or "collect a buck" and it was worth their while to pay a not insignificant amount to find out who had pools.  I suppose there are a million and one uses, most of which I can't imagine.

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Mapping is a complex endeavor more so than most people would think. In regards to this thread, updating and validation of trusted data into a GIS (Geographic Information System) is what creates the value. This continual updating and addition of new data (new roads, or new restaurants in this case) costs person hours which in turn costs money.

For example after Apple switched from Google Maps to their own Maps, it was universally greeted with a bad response. Their low amount POI database could not match Google's ten year lead. Even the low quality Apple Maps had roads which led into bodies of water! And their 3D flyovers had compression artifacts and distortions for major cities. Any of these errors could have been caught if someone had actually looked at them.

Apple had to rebuilt their Map teams which they did and will continue to spend an considerable amount of money to ensure the accuracy of the data. An easy way to think about this is they created an entire new Map Team consisting of "Maps Ground Truth Managers".

Why does Uber want Nokia's Here? Here is the rebranded name for NAVTEQ mapping which was brought out by Nokia in 2007. NAVTEQ started from US Census Tiger files in the 1980s, pretty much the same way ESRI started out of Tiger mapping files. All of that data had been validated via decades of usage. Any of the car companies for the future will want a non-Google GIS for automated driving. Right now it's being licensed out to other companies, for example, Yahoo! Maps.

Yelp used Google Maps data and their API to create the maps. Geocoding new restaurants, getting their physical addresses or coordinates takes person hours. Yelp has an army of reviewers, an in-house network, that does all of that work for almost free. Well free for Yelp, not the individual restaurants which give them special dinners or free opening nights for reviews. Is it worth $2-3 billion...? Maybe since it's crowdsourced data validation for restaurants. To consider Yelp's price evaluation, it's important to remember that in 2013, Google bought Waze for $1.1 billion. Waze is an app that allows for users to submit traffic problems in real time and push it out to other users.

Google, Apple, Tesla, and Uber will all need highly accurate mapping data in the future since they are all rumored to be working on automated cars. A few billion here and there will make a difference in the future.  ;)

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Mapping is a complex endeavor more so than most people would think. In regards to this thread, updating and validation of trusted data into a GIS (Geographic Information System) is what creates the value. This continual updating and addition of new data (new roads, or new restaurants in this case) costs person hours which in turn costs money.

For example after Apple switched from Google Maps to their own Maps, it was universally greeted with a bad response. Their low amount POI database could not match Google's ten year lead. Even the low quality Apple Maps had roads which led into bodies of water! And their 3D flyovers had compression artifacts and distortions for major cities. Any of these errors could have been caught if someone had actually looked at them.

Apple had to rebuilt their Map teams which they did and will continue to spend an considerable amount of money to ensure the accuracy of the data. An easy way to think about this is they created an entire new Map Team consisting of "Maps Ground Truth Managers".

Why does Uber want Nokia's Here? Here is the rebranded name for NAVTEQ mapping which was brought out by Nokia in 2007. NAVTEQ started from US Census Tiger files in the 1980s, pretty much the same way ESRI started out of Tiger mapping files. All of that data had been validated via decades of usage. Any of the car companies for the future will want a non-Google GIS for automated driving. Right now it's being licensed out to other companies, for example, Yahoo! Maps.

Yelp used Google Maps data and their API to create the maps. Geocoding new restaurants, getting their physical addresses or coordinates takes person hours. Yelp has an army of reviewers, an in-house network, that does all of that work for almost free. Well free for Yelp, not the individual restaurants which give them special dinners or free opening nights for reviews. Is it worth $2-3 billion...? Maybe since it's crowdsourced data validation for restaurants. To consider Yelp's price evaluation, it's important to remember that in 2013, Google bought Waze for $1.1 billion. Waze is an app that allows for users to submit traffic problems in real time and push it out to other users.

Google, Apple, Tesla, and Uber will all need highly accurate mapping data in the future since they are all rumored to be working on automated cars. A few billion here and there will make a difference in the future.  ;)

I like lion's description.  He has a grasp of mapping, the industry, technical and other elements.  I come to this information from a different perspective; local search.  That also implies advertising.

I'll put a different perspective on this discussion from the marketing, advertising, and retail web usage perspective.

Its difficult to get good volumes on total search.  But lets try.  Per Quantcast Yelp is currently averaging about 200 million searches a month, almost completely in North America, by far the most of that activity is in the US.  It also has about 80-85 million unique users/month, again primarily in the US.  But a unique device could be a home device, a mobile and a work device.  So something less than 80 million North Americans are reportedly accessing Yelp every month with an average of several visits per person per month.  That could range from 1 visit/month to tens of dozens for avid yelpers.

Yelp's traffic is virtually all local in nature;  searching for local restaurants, theaters, nail salons, merchandise and doctors among other uses.

Google is reportedly at somewhere between 100-150 billion visits/month.  Assume 1/2 in the US/North America or at the low end 50 billion/month.  Bing is reportedly at about 4-5 billion visits/month, mostly in the US/North America.

Per any number of reports from personnel within the various search engines, local searches could comprise up to or around 25% of all search traffic;  Again searches for local doctors, restaurants, nail salons, hotels, etc etc etc.

If 1/4 of Bings traffic is local that is about 1 billion/month and Google's might be about 12 billion....all compared to Yelp's 200 million/month.

Total advertising in the US is around $180 billion/year per one source. TV taking about 37% and digital taking about 30%.  Print, including newspapers and magazines are about 16%.  Clearly there is phenomenal growth in the digital marketing world and likewise continued slippage in print.   From  another source local advertising spend is in the total range of $140 billion with $50 billion being spent by local businesses.

Yelp's revenues last year were about $377 million, virtually all from advertising, and predominantly from small businesses.

Yelp's advertising pitch, (aside from mafia like strong arming) has always been predicated on the theory that consumers who read reviews are closer to buying than simple searchers.   Based on operating a number of smb web sites (that are non restaurants I would agree whole heartedly with that premise).  I think it also applies to the restaurant industry.

In any case Yelp's valuation, besides its tremendously accurate POI data base of businesses is also a function of its ability to generate advertising revenues.  The trick, to do so is a function of accomplishing this, doing it well while controlling costs, and keeping Google from crushing you.   All in all that is a tough nut, especially the last part, at least IMHO.

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On a side note, but completely current, Google has shut down one of the prime mechanism's for updating business data in its maps

The system was spammed.  This has been a recurring issue for years, being an issue since Google first introduced Google Maps and Google local data.

For instance from 2009, this maps view of "locksmiths in Manhattan".  Impossible...more locksmiths than Starbucks!!!!

post-9660-0-16098800-1431362409_thumb.jp

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Dave, I'm honestly not trying to argue; I'm trying to understand. I don't question the importance of maps, but what is the importance of owning them, as opposed to using someone else's? There are copyrights from Nokia and Microsoft in the bottom-right of Yelp's maps, so there must be something about them that's licensed. To me, owning a mapping system seems like owning a search engine. This is why automobile companies have tier one suppliers, for example: they literally don't want to reinvent the wheel. (That was funny.)

When we talk about 'maps' in the modern sense it has multiple meanings. Up until about 30 years ago, roughly the mid-1980s, we used paper maps. Cartographers would draw maps by hand when they were initially created, however with the advent of the computer age, they could be created digitally and more importantly edited very quickly. Points, lines, and polygons on a coordinate reference system could be readjusted at zip code level for example. Additionally, databases could be added to the computer map which would hold physical coordinates or addresses to record particular information.

Now digital maps, have a coordinate reference frame, layers of cartographic information, and databases of data, i.e. POI. A company may use Open Street Map (its free) for the basic geographic layer, points, lines and polygons of roads. They may add a particular geographic layer which has POI data by buying it or 'leasing' usage for example households that make about a certain income. Then this company, let's say PizzaX will take this digital map add new geographic points with data for every single pizza transaction. After five years of sales, PizzaX's map would be accurate to know where they will sell more or less pizza. PizzaX's geographic data layer set would be valuable to themselves, their competitors, and marketers.

So the transactional created data layer has two components, the geospatial coordinates or address and the data of the transaction. It's important for companies to 'own' or keep this for themselves. For example using Google Maps API used to be free, then all of a sudden they started charging, above a certain page view count.

With automated cars in the future, lets say BMW gets out the door first and starts out using Google Maps as their navigation backbone for a nominal fee. After 3 years Google catches up with their Google Car and they start charging 5 times the amount for the BWI's access to Google Maps. That's difficult in a business sense. But much worse, BWI was validating Google Maps for 3 years, i.e. basically working for Google to make their maps/data set better before Google Car came on the market.

Basically today, every database installation in the IT world should have a geospatial coordinate to them to future proof that data. Hope that answer the question!

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When we talk about 'maps' in the modern sense it has multiple meanings. Up until about 30 years ago, roughly the mid-1980s, we used paper maps. Cartographers would draw maps by hand when they were initially created, however with the advent of the computer age, they could be created digitally and more importantly edited very quickly. Points, lines, and polygons on a coordinate reference system could be readjusted at zip code level for example. Additionally, databases could be added to the computer map which would hold physical coordinates or addresses to record particular information.

Now digital maps, have a coordinate reference frame, layers of cartographic information, and databases of data, i.e. POI. A company may use Open Street Map (its free) for the basic geographic layer, points, lines and polygons of roads. They may add a particular geographic layer which has POI data by buying it or 'leasing' usage for example households that make about a certain income. Then this company, let's say PizzaX will take this digital map add new geographic points with data for every single pizza transaction. After five years of sales, PizzaX's map would be accurate to know where they will sell more or less pizza. PizzaX's geographic data layer set would be valuable to themselves, their competitors, and marketers.

So the transactional created data layer has two components, the geospatial coordinates or address and the data of the transaction. It's important for companies to 'own' or keep this for themselves. For example using Google Maps API used to be free, then already of a sudden they started charging above a certain page view count.

With automated cars in the future, lets say BMW gets out the door first and starts out using Google Maps as their navigation backbone for a nominal fee. Then after 3 years Google catches up with their Google Car. They start charging 5 times the amount for the BWI's access to Google Maps. That's difficult in a business sense. But in worse, BWI was validating Google Maps for 3 years, i.e. basically working for Google to make their maps/data set better before Google Car came on the market.

Basically today, every database installation in the IT world should have a geospatial coordinate to them. Hope that answer the question!

Great information and clarified points for me.  Thanks, Lion.

As to using Google's mapping...I wouldn't.  They are way too big, too monopolistic.

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On a related note Verizon announced they are purchasing AOL for $4.4 billion to close this summer.  The reason suggested and referenced is mobile advertising plus video distribution on the web.

$4.4 billion....that is more than the current market value for Yelp.  Per AOL's own comments they currently average about 200 million visits/month.  That is about the same traffic volume as Yelp.  That probably doesn't count HuffingtonPost or other sites they own with similarly independent identities.  AOL also owns Mapquest, speaking of mapping companies.

Anyone use Mapquest recently??   I doubt it.  At an earlier time it was one of the premier retail web mapping products.  Its now a sad afterthought.  Mapping companies and directories (ie SuperPages, YelllowPages.com etc) are hyped as great sources for web traffic to local business.  They aren't. Not now.  Any restaurant owners or local business owners check as to how much traffic a site such as mapquest has delivered to your business site?

I checked 2 small business sites we have going back a bit in time.  Mapquest delivered a couple of visits, over a couple of years.  Both businesses have full visibility in Mapquest.  That is a couple of visits against over 200,000.  AOL, as a search engine delivered way less than 1% of total visits.  Some of the other aol properties such as huffpost and patch delivered some visits....but not much.

Yelp delivered a significant multiple of visits over the aggregate of all the aol properties...and we know that yelp visitors converted into sales.  How?  We have services and we often speak to customers to learn how they found us and why they chose our services.  They tell us.  They do read reviews.

On a comparative basis, on our ends, as small businesses yelp is infinitely more valuable than all the AOL properties combined.    And we are (potential) advertisers.

Now the effectiveness of a purchase of any web property at any price is to keep it vital over the long term, even as conditions change over time.  AOL purchased Mapquest in 1999 or 2000 for $1.1 billion.  As a retail map product it seems to have faded into non use.  Mapquest does have commercial products that it sells.  I have no idea as to their values or the revenues they generate.

In any case I still believe yelp would be an interesting purchase for Apple and Apple Maps.

  1. They can afford it at its current market value or a higher value.  
  2. Apple and google have a great interest in "messing with one another"
  3. They have an Apple Maps app that already features Yelp reviews for local businesses.  
  4. They already use Yelp's POI feature to populate the POI features in their maps.
  5. With their market share of devices, the fact that when they originally offered apple maps they discontinued making google maps available for Iphones.   They want to wean their users off of google products,   I suspect some of the reasons might be similar to those posed by Lion in positing why an auto manufacturer might not want to use google mapping for future autos
  6.  The size of the world wide and the US local advertising market is huge.  If apple takes a sizable share of that search market for local queries via its apple maps app and a reasonable local search function (something which yelp already has) it will take some of that enormous volume of funds and likewise limit google's take of those revenues).  The more it takes the less google has and the less google can compete on the mobile market place.

All of the above, of course, are just my opinions.  But I look at Google as a monopoly in local search with way too much power.  Anything or anyone who can blunt that monopoly is a positive in my book.  ;)

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Apple may purchase Yelp, but it has actually been buying smaller map services companies for the past 3 years since Maps launched in 2012 that should be able to provide the 'entire shebang', create a robust internal infrastructure, once it is up and running. A big part of the future in mobile area will come from new markets like Asia particularly China where the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus have shown incredible growth from the previous iteration. Apple is investing in mapping technologies and talent that will work world wide and most likely not something like Yelp which is mainly US based. 

Apple has purchased Locationary (for crowdsourcing), HopStop.com (for transit mapping), Embark (for transit mapping), and BroadMap for general GIS related mapping talent. Apple also created a simple way for small businesses like restaurants to provide information for their own businesses via mapsconnect.apple.com that they can self correct. The main issues with POI data is correction needs to occur by some regular method. 

In the scope of this thread and forum, Apple and other companies are currently developing indoor mapping technologies. For example, Apple has an iBeacon system which is low level Bluetooth sensors and probably the easiest to visual its usage is the famous Mall scene from Minority Report. Only your phone will get a notification perhaps that the appetizer is free with an entree if you eat now. If you walk past Shake Shack at Tysons, they may send your a notification shakes are off 20% since there is no line. 

Looking at the Verge last night, see the speculation is growing on who will buy Nokia's Here. Hard to believe people are starting to write about how automated driving will be push out taxi drivers, truckers, etc...in ten years. 

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Apple may purchase Yelp, but it has actually been buying smaller map services companies for the past 3 years since Maps launched in 2012 that should be able to provide the 'entire shebang', create a robust internal infrastructure, once it is up and running. A big part of the future in mobile area will come from new markets like Asia particularly China where the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus have shown incredible growth from the previous iteration. Apple is investing in mapping technologies and talent that will work world wide and most likely not something like Yelp which is mainly US based. 

Apple has purchased Locationary (for crowdsourcing), HopStop.com (for transit mapping), Embark (for transit mapping), and BroadMap for general GIS related mapping talent. Apple also created a simple way for small businesses like restaurants to provide information for their own businesses via mapsconnect.apple.com that they can self correct. The main issues with POI data is correction needs to occur by some regular method. 

In the scope of this thread and forum, Apple and other companies are currently developing indoor mapping technologies. For example, Apple has an iBeacon system which is low level Bluetooth sensors and probably the easiest to visual its usage is the famous Mall scene from Minority Report. Only your phone will get a notification perhaps that the appetizer is free with an entree if you eat now. If you walk past Shake Shack at Tysons, they may send your a notification shakes are off 20% since there is no line. 

Looking at the Verge last night, see the speculation is growing on who will buy Nokia's Here. Hard to believe people are starting to write about how automated driving will be push out taxi drivers, truckers, etc...in ten years. 

Lion:  You clearly know the mapping side.  Thank you for the depth of description above and upthread.   Apple evidently killed in China this last qtr and there is big money to be made there.

Coming from the local side of search it was obvious that it took google a good 4 years or so to get its map's reasonably accurate without glaring mistakes and also to clean up the issues that would occur when putting maps and info from its maps index into the first page of google dot com.  So many errors.  So much frustration.

By example good old Sunrise, Florida, a town appropriately located on the Eastern/Atlantic Coast of Florida suffered for a fair amount of time being moved by Google to the Western Gulf Coast and stayed there in google for quite a few months...all occurring back in 2009.

Lion:  Why do you think Apple built its own maps app?   I assumed it was to cut into google's monopoly on local search.

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Lion:  Why do you think Apple built its own maps app?   I assumed it was to cut into google's monopoly on local search.  

Eric Schmidt was on the Apple Board and I believed was picked by Steve Jobs for the position. During the development of the iPad/iPhone, Schmidt probably saw prototypes with other board members, Google started to develop Android which 'copied' several features. Schmidt at some point recused himself from these presentations as he disclosed that Google was working on a competing product Android. Steve Jobs infamously said that he would go thermonuclear on Google for this betrayal.

In terms of data gathering, using any of the map programs starts a chain of events, for example, getting directions. The route is created thru an algorithm and pushed down to the mobile device. The mobile device pushes up the GPS coordinates as the device follows the path at each segment of the journey. Let's say the GPS point of the mobile device on the map is not on the road but in the building next to the road. Google can self correct the data if they choose.

Google also basically sells the user data to their clients, every search, every request for directions. However Apple was refusing to allow them access to their users interaction data for sell. So Google was not releasing new features on Apple Maps app at the same time as on Android. As soon as Apple used their own Maps App, Google released a standalone app which could be downloaded from the App Store with all the missing features. From Wikipedia's entry on Apple Maps in 2013, Apple's app versus Google's is 35 million to 6 million.

This is all about vertical integration. Every company wants to be able to control their entire thing because long term it is in their best interest to control their infrastructure and ecosystem. In terms of restaurants, places like Dan Barber's Blue Hill at the Stone Barns are a good example. We took the farm tour the next day after having dinner the night before. It was a four hour tour which was informative. They basically use everything from the farm or from nearby farms. When you have that kind of system setup the level of quality is up to you.

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Eric Schmidt was on the Apple Board and I believed was picked by Steve Jobs for the position. During the development of the iPad/iPhone, Schmidt probably saw prototypes with other board members, Google started to develop Android which 'copied' several features. Schmidt at some point recused himself from these presentations as he disclosed that Google was working on a competing product Android. Steve Jobs infamously said that he would go thermonuclear on Google for this betrayal.

In terms of data gathering, using any of the map programs starts a chain of events, for example, getting directions. The route is created thru an algorithm and pushed down to the mobile device. The mobile device pushes up the GPS coordinates as the device follows the path at each segment of the journey. Let's say the GPS point of the mobile device on the map is not on the road but in the building next to the road. Google can self correct the data if they choose.

Google also basically sells the user data to their clients, every search, every request for directions. However Apple was refusing to allow them access to their users interaction data for sell. So Google was not releasing new features on Apple Maps app at the same time as on Android. As soon as Apple used their own Maps App, Google released a standalone app which could be downloaded from the App Store with all the missing features. From Wikipedia's entry on Apple Maps in 2013, Apple's app versus Google's is 35 million to 6 million.

This is all about vertical integration. Every company wants to be able to control their entire thing because long term it is in their best interest to control their infrastructure and ecosystem. In terms of restaurants, places like Dan Barber's Blue Hill at the Stone Barns are a good example. We took the farm tour the next day after having dinner the night before. It was a four hour tour which was informative. They basically use everything from the farm or from nearby farms. When you have that kind of system setup the level of quality is up to you.

Thank you again, Lion.

I'm aware of some of that background but was not aware of all of it, and had missed the data from 2013 as to Apple Maps users/usage from 2013.   Very interesting.

In that the opening thread was about Yelp, and Yelp has such a significant impact on the restaurant industry, I feel obligated to continue to focus on that point, but I find your knowledge on the mapping technology and the players very fascinating and knowledgeable.

On a side note, though it didn't get the kind of press that Apple's problems with mapping caused, Google's early mapping missteps caused similar problems.  I saw a fair amount of the complaints, issues and catastrophe's from commentators ie for example people following wrong directions to a destination ending up in a wrong and dangerous spot and getting robbed and mugged.   I saw a lot of these complaints in the process of following the details of Google local and the usage of google maps in search via google....and the complaints people would bring up in various forums and specifically the google local forum to try and improve those maps.  Going back in time I would estimate that it took a good four years or so for Google to get at least its US mapping data up to snuff, once they started working on it.

I was aware of Steve Jobs' anger about the development of Android...but he is gone now, and Apple might not carry that perspective at this time.  I wouldn't know.

Again, I look at this issue from the value of search volume and advertising volume and possibly the revenues the two giants can earn while their businesses, while mostly different, do overlap in certain regards.   Google's revenues are primarily via advertising;   Local search while not being broken out as an advertising source is an extraordinarily HUGE number.

Just to put it in some perspective:

Yelp earned $375 million last year, virtually all from North America and virtually all of that from the US.

Google earned $66 billion last year, about $60 billion from advertising revenues and probably about 1/2 of that from the US.

So google earned about $30 billion in US advertising and Yelp earned a little less than $375 million:  An elephant and an ant.  Google had profits of about $14 billion or so and cash flow from operations of about $22 billion.

Apple is so gigantic.  Its fiscal year ends in October.  Last fiscal year it generated about $180 in revenues and its cash flow was about $60 billion....Almost as much as google's revenues.  YIKES!!!!   And btw:  In the 2 qtrs since then its revenues and profits have SOARED.   Apple is big and its wealthy.

Recently, per the commentary of a fellow named Greg Sterling, who is one of the leading commentators on what is occurring in the web industry as it affects local, local businesses, national businesses who sell locally, and local search which drives sales...he estimated about 20 billion Local type searches on Google and just in the US for last qtr...or about 6-7 billion/month.

Local inquiries or searches is a broad term.  It probably includes searches about weather, traffic, local school news, etc.  Its not just about people searching for a restaurant, doctor or salon.

Now the question is how much advertising revenues does it generate for google of the roughly $30 billion it made last year via US advertising revenues???

Google doesn't break down that info!!!!  ;)    But it is an enormous amt.....possibly in the 1/4 to 1/3 range.   Then its also possibly in that range for developed nations also.  Its an enormous amount.

Now getting back to something else about google and its relationships with revenues and expenditures.    While google total made $60 billion in ad revenues...and made $14 billion in profits and additionally it spent about $10 billion in research and another $14 billion in SG and A....   it doesn't really need to spend that money.  Tons of it goes to all its "projects"....like laying cable, building cars, etc etc.   They have tons of people doing stuff that doesn't make them money....because they can afford it.

Now google and Apple compete in mobile and they are moving into heavy competition on wearable technology and lord knows what.

I just think if Apple turned its lucrative mobile technology into a competitive source for advertising for search...and for particularly local search....it would suck out dollars from Google.

In fact from what I've read I bet Steve Jobs would do that.  But he is gone.  So who knows.

If Apple cuts google's cash flow they can't compete as well in developing technology etc.  Its what competitors do.   Its where I'm coming from with regard to the value of Yelp to Apple...as a tool to enhance its mapping technology and then use it as a mechanism to enhance local search and become a very serious competitor for local search.

One can and people already use Yelp for this type of search, which, if memory serves me correct, a commentator here referenced using yelp while traveling through new metro areas and searching on narrowing topics such as "farm to table restaurants" for a particular city, etc.    Yelp already works as a local search engine.

Finally as every marketing study touching on mobile usage has discovered of recent.....IOS/Apple owners end up spending dramatically more than do Android users/ per person.  Its a dramatic difference.  An Apple search capability of strength and breadth and much usage would pull endless dollars from mobile advertisers and pull those dollars from Google.

Now all the above is just guess work.  I don't know what these "big guys" are doing or how they are thinking.  But I know they compete very aggressively.

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I just think if Apple turned its lucrative mobile technology into a competitive source for advertising for search...and for particularly local search....it would suck out dollars from Google.

In fact from what I've read I bet Steve Jobs would do that.  But he is gone.  So who knows.

If Apple cuts google's cash flow they can't compete as well in developing technology etc.  Its what competitors do.   Its where I'm coming from with regard to the value of Yelp to Apple...as a tool to enhance its mapping technology and then use it as a mechanism to enhance local search and become a very serious competitor for local search.

One can and people already use Yelp for this type of search, which, if memory serves me correct, a commentator here referenced using yelp while traveling through new metro areas and searching on narrowing topics such as "farm to table restaurants" for a particular city, etc.    Yelp already works as a local search engine.

Finally as every marketing study touching on mobile usage has discovered of recent.....IOS/Apple owners end up spending dramatically more than do Android users/ per person.  Its a dramatic difference.  An Apple search capability of strength and breadth and much usage would pull endless dollars from mobile advertisers and pull those dollars from Google.

Now all the above is just guess work.  I don't know what these "big guys" are doing or how they are thinking.  But I know they compete very aggressively.

Apple has no plans to monetize it's customers. Steve Jobs certainly never expressed any interest in selling users data and publicly mentioned against it several times. And now current CEO, Tim Cook, published this message on privacy. The difference between Apple and Google is pretty simple. Apple sells products and Google sells services which are supported by the monetized data collected on your usage. There is no better example than what happened to today. Apple is seeking to block Radio Shack from selling it's data,  Daring Fireball.

Its definitely true that iOS users spend considerable more versus Android users.  In my opinion, Apple has no agenda against Google at the moment as when Steve Jobs was alive. Tim Cook has stated several times that Apple will protect it's IP but are focused on building better products. Maybe Apple will purchase Yelp for its brand name, but it just doesn't seem as valuable as Nokia's Here which would be a better purchase. Clearly Apple could purchase both and many other companies with its cash reserves. However, services has never been a business Apple wants to get into and only has when it adds value to their core products. For example, many people continue to suggest Apple should buy a fabrication plants since they design their own chips for iOS devices. Right now they contract that work out to Samsung (their competitor) and TMSC. Running a fab plant isn't in their DNA since they rather be nimble to make changes and having a $1-2 billion fab plant sitting around tooled for an 'old' technology would be a detriment.

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Apple has no plans to monetize it's customers. Steve Jobs certainly never expressed any interest in selling users data and publicly mentioned against it several times. And now current CEO, Tim Cook, published this message on privacy. The difference between Apple and Google is pretty simple. Apple sells products and Google sells services which are supported by the monetized data collected on your usage. There is no better example than what happened to today. Apple is seeking to block Radio Shack from selling it's data,  Daring Fireball.

Its definitely true that iOS users spend considerable more versus Android users.  In my opinion, Apple has no agenda against Google at the moment as when Steve Jobs was alive. Tim Cook has stated several times that Apple will protect it's IP but are focused on building better products. Maybe Apple will purchase Yelp for its brand name, but it just doesn't seem as valuable as Nokia's Here which would be a better purchase. Clearly Apple could purchase both and many other companies with its cash reserves. However, services has never been a business Apple wants to get into and only has when it adds value to their core products. For example, many people continue to suggest Apple should buy a fabrication plants since they design their own chips for iOS devices. Right now they contract that work out to Samsung (their competitor) and TMSC. Running a fab plant isn't in their DNA since they rather be nimble to make changes and having a $1-2 billion fab plant sitting around tooled for an 'old' technology would be a detriment.

Thanks, Lion.  Great informative comments.  I think your synopsis is more apt than my hypothesis;  that Apple is not a likely candidate to purchase Yelp, should Yelp be for sale.  Your review is based on Apple fundamentals, my theory is based on "wishful thinking"  ;)

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Thanks, Lion.  Great informative comments.  I think your synopsis is more apt than my hypothesis;  that Apple is not a likely candidate to purchase Yelp, should Yelp be for sale.  Your review is based on Apple fundamentals, my theory is based on "wishful thinking"   ;)

Its still a possible purchase for the brandname, but IT service companies like Yelp are getting squeezed by the larger companies' offerings and worse not utilized like Zagat's. Boutique services in specialized areas like cuisine are hard to monetize to support the infrastructure necessary to run a modern website. I think Vox Media with Eater.com is able to do a job spreading those costs across multiple websites.

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Mapping is a complex endeavor more so than most people would think. In regards to this thread, updating and validation of trusted data into a GIS (Geographic Information System) is what creates the value. This continual updating and addition of new data (new roads, or new restaurants in this case) costs person hours which in turn costs money.

For example after Apple switched from Google Maps to their own Maps, it was universally greeted with a bad response. Their low amount POI database could not match Google's ten year lead. Even the low quality Apple Maps had roads which led into bodies of water! And their 3D flyovers had compression artifacts and distortions for major cities. Any of these errors could have been caught if someone had actually looked at them.

Apple had to rebuilt their Map teams which they did and will continue to spend an considerable amount of money to ensure the accuracy of the data. An easy way to think about this is they created an entire new Map Team consisting of "Maps Ground Truth Managers".

Why does Uber want Nokia's Here? Here is the rebranded name for NAVTEQ mapping which was brought out by Nokia in 2007. NAVTEQ started from US Census Tiger files in the 1980s, pretty much the same way ESRI started out of Tiger mapping files. All of that data had been validated via decades of usage. Any of the car companies for the future will want a non-Google GIS for automated driving. Right now it's being licensed out to other companies, for example, Yahoo! Maps.

Yelp used Google Maps data and their API to create the maps. Geocoding new restaurants, getting their physical addresses or coordinates takes person hours. Yelp has an army of reviewers, an in-house network, that does all of that work for almost free. Well free for Yelp, not the individual restaurants which give them special dinners or free opening nights for reviews. Is it worth $2-3 billion...? Maybe since it's crowdsourced data validation for restaurants. To consider Yelp's price evaluation, it's important to remember that in 2013, Google bought Waze for $1.1 billion. Waze is an app that allows for users to submit traffic problems in real time and push it out to other users.

Google, Apple, Tesla, and Uber will all need highly accurate mapping data in the future since they are all rumored to be working on automated cars. A few billion here and there will make a difference in the future.  ;)

Lion:  The WashPost has a timely article about Mapquest.   Interesting article from my perspective.  Per the article they buy their data from TomTom.   There is also a process for small businesses and others to update POI information.  Although from the SMB perspective it appears they have "farmed out the process to a business called Yext which monetizes this process.   It used to be free.

The article focuses on their retail applications.  When you started posting here I looked them up.  They additionally have B to B applications not referenced in the article.

After reading the article I tried Mapquest on a mobile.  UGGGGGGGGGHHHH   Terrible results compared to today's prevailing technology.  Searches for businesses provided unscaled maps that aren't much help.  Boy they fell behind on technology.

My gut is that their POI data is not nearly as good as Google's, Yelp's and probably falls behind the new Apple Maps which is spending beaucoup bucks to get accurate and updated data.  Also I looked at data covering several hundred thousand visits over the past "couple of years" for our smbs.   Freaking almost NO traffic from mapquest in the past couple of years.  I mean NADA.  It used to be a reasonable source of traffic.

The article suggests there are about 40 million users in the US.  Might be....but I bet they aren't using it in a "search type" basis to look up a slew of businesses as with other applications.  I suppose it is mostly used for driving and directions on the retail side.

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Lion:  The WashPost has a timely article about Mapquest.   Interesting article from my perspective.  Per the article they buy their data from TomTom.   There is also a process for small businesses and others to update POI information.  Although from the SMB perspective it appears they have "farmed out the process to a business called Yext which monetizes this process.   It used to be free.

The article focuses on their retail applications.  When you started posting here I looked them up.  They additionally have B to B applications not referenced in the article.

After reading the article I tried Mapquest on a mobile.  UGGGGGGGGGHHHH   Terrible results compared to today's prevailing technology.  Searches for businesses provided unscaled maps that aren't much help.  Boy they fell behind on technology.

My gut is that their POI data is not nearly as good as Google's, Yelp's and probably falls behind the new Apple Maps which is spending beaucoup bucks to get accurate and updated data.  Also I looked at data covering several hundred thousand visits over the past "couple of years" for our smbs.   Freaking almost NO traffic from mapquest in the past couple of years.  I mean NADA.  It used to be a reasonable source of traffic.

The article suggests there are about 40 million users in the US.  Might be....but I bet they aren't using it in a "search type" basis to look up a slew of businesses as with other applications.  I suppose it is mostly used for driving and directions on the retail side.

Map quest is an also ran mapping business but since it's data packaging has been good that's insured it's viability. Its like Real Networks which still exists because the company has the financial assets to back in up however does very little income annually at this point, i.e. $10 million in 2010.

Since my last posting in this thread, Apple acquired Coherent Navigation, a GPS startup company, that specializes in raising the accuracy level by combining mid Earth level orbit GPS satellites and other low level satellites signals.  Apple also confirmed they would continue to source data from Tom Tom. And for the past few months Apple has been reported to be sending out these 3D LIDAR equipped vans to gather the data necessary for talking on Google Street map. DaveO, you are right about Apple spending a huge amount of bucks to catch up. I remember reading a few reports even before Apple Maps were released that they would have to spend ~$1 billion a year and that educated guess was before the release and subsequent fiasco.

In terms of SMB and B to B transactions, I don't have a that much experience but places like comScore measure internet traffic with its analytics tools to provide representational trends. This has been the traditional way to measure traffic across the internet since things were desktop/browser based. As mobile devices have taken off, Apple has the largest share of 'paying customers'. Unfortunately installing monitoring software like comScore does not work in locked down systems, i.e. iOS. New companies like Spotsetter that are able to combine multiple data streams onto maps will play an important role.

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Map quest is an also ran mapping business but since it's data packaging has been good that's insured it's viability. Its like Real Networks which still exists because the company has the financial assets to back in up however does very little income annually at this point, i.e. $10 million in 2010.

Since my last posting in this thread, Apple acquired Coherent Navigation, a GPS startup company, that specializes in raising the accuracy level by combining mid Earth level orbit GPS satellites and other low level satellites signals.  Apple also confirmed they would continue to source data from Tom Tom. And for the past few months Apple has been reported to be sending out these 3D LIDAR equipped vans to gather the data necessary for talking on Google Street map. DaveO, you are right about Apple spending a huge amount of bucks to catch up. I remember reading a few reports even before Apple Maps were released that they would have to spend ~$1 billion a year and that educated guess was before the release and subsequent fiasco.

In terms of SMB and B to B transactions, I don't have a that much experience but places like comScore measure internet traffic with its analytics tools to provide representational trends. This has been the traditional way to measure traffic across the internet since things were desktop/browser based. As mobile devices have taken off, Apple has the largest share of 'paying customers'. Unfortunately installing monitoring software like comScore does not work in locked down systems, i.e. iOS. New companies like Spotsetter that are able to combine multiple data streams onto maps will play an important role.

Lion:  While the opening thread was about Yelp for sale, we have interestingly delved into some of the technology of mapping, thanks to your technical knowledge and experience.  I for one appreciate your perspective.  It explains a lot, including a description of what "mapping" is in this technical environment and answered a question about "owning maps" upthread.

Parenthetically, assuming Yelp is for sale, I do wish it would go to a larger business that would change or could change the nature of its efforts to monetize, and very specifically its often "mafia like" approach to convincing smb's to advertise.  Its why I was hypothesizing Apple as a buyer.  I do believe your review of Apple was a convincing discussion.  I've less hope in them as "the buyer'.   :D

Our perspectives on mapping are different.  You understand it from a technical perspective.  I've been following it and watching it closely from the perspective of local search, Search Engine Optimizing, and how it impacts visibility for local businesses.  I've probably been following it for a decade.  We approach it from different angles, albeit complementary.

Google Maps was introduced in 2005 and was entered into the main search results of Google dot com in mid 2006.   Once it hit the main results of google search it simply crushed mapquest and became the premier mapping program for searchers.  It was error prone for years, possibly to around 2010 or so.  (I could source a significant number of articles showing endless mistakes).

Parenthetically, I went back and did some research.  The above reference from Wikipedia mentions that G Maps was "built" by two brothers named Rasmussen.  In 2005 Google tied "maps" and search together with this "patent" interpreted here    The actual patent is published here.  One of the critical "claims" in the patent is claim 17 wherein a website would have a "geo" relevance if there were five or less internal links to the address page.   That actually improved search dramatically for local queries  such as "Alexandria Pizza" or "Rockville seafood" or anything like that.

Google tied its maps and search together and soon started putting maps on the first page of search.  I'm sure once that occurred it "killed" mapquest usage.

Even as Google has incorporated an immense Google fan base to crowdsource corrections, they ultimately hired enormous numbers of staff people to get computer mapping up to par.  It took several years and immense staff power to improve the product.  Ultimately the details involved take enormous time and energy.  Following that process from 2006 to about 2010 and understanding some of it, had me suggest that Apple will possibly take about the same amount of time and investment.  Their investments to date suggest they are putting in the dollars.  As to the manpower, I don't know.

Marissa Mayer, the current CEO of Yahoo, was a key Google executive before moving to Yahoo, and was also critical in the development of Google Local and Google Maps.  It is hypothesized that she decided NOT to focus on Local and Maps in Yahoo because she well understood the cost and staffpower requirements.

Interestingly, while ComScore is endlessly cited for market information, in the recent articles about the leak from the FTC wherein certain of Google's activities were deemed anti competitive and monopolistic, it was referenced that Google knew that ComScores pretty consistent rating of Google's market share of search was dramatically understated with estimates of actual market control being dramatically higher than the 65 to 67% Comscore has been reporting for years.

Webmasters have claimed that for years.  I'm sure google doesn't reference what it really measures as the number probably approaches 80-90% of market in the US.  I'm sure Bing/Microsoft doesn't reference it either as their number is embarrassingly low and would probably scare off advertisers.  In the world of local search and searching for local businesses and restaurants I'd bet Google controls around 90% of the market in the US and possibly Canada, just as it does in Europe.

Search for small businesses and restaurants is an enormous "type" of search.  Searches such as "restaurants in DC" or "DC restaurants" are incredibly voluminous.  Most use Google.  The scope of this versus something like Yelp is incredible, even as yelp is relatively popular.   Volumes of Google searches of this type versus yelp could be 5-10-20 times as much, depending on type of business and region.

As to mobile:  As you reference its been well documented now that IOS (apple) owners are spending dramatically more than Android owners.   We can see that in our own smb's where we monitor traffic.  Mobile is critical for local purchasing.

Mapping is tough on a small screen.  Its difficult to create a readable view with multiple sites for a search such as restaurants DC or restaurants Bethesda, etc.  I personally prefer lists to maps on a mobile.  On a large screen frankly I like the way Yelp scales its map and creates groups of 10 businesses in an area and then adds specific details per business.  In general I find it very readable and full of information.

Finally you might have read about two recent examples where Google Maps was spammed;  One with an android dummy doing something "inappropriate" on a symbol of Apple and a second case with a terribly inappropriate map of the White House using inexcusable language

Since google maps went up, and since it became the most used mapping system for finding small businesses, it has been spammed continuously, and maintaining its integrity has been a major battle or it should have been.  Over the years sometimes Google has ignored it, and sometimes when the situations are tremendously embarrassing as with the two cases above, they deal with it.

Frankly I've worked on ways to "manipulate" results and had various successes over the years.

Interestingly I don't believe there are examples of businesses successfully "spamming" yelp's maps whereas Google's maps have been spammed for years.

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Mapping on small screens can be tough, definitely, but that's why companies like Spotsetter will provide recommendation services pulling ratings from 50 different sites and from your own friends. You will ask Apple's Siri, Microsoft's Cortana or Google Now where to eat sushi for example. The difference soon will be that it will search thru your friends twitter, Facebook postings, RSS feed, Youtube, and flicker accounts to include any positive references to sushi within your geographic area as well. Local, to your social circle, and global, many different data sets will be accessible. Should be interesting when this level comes online. 

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Mapping on small screens can be tough, definitely, but that's why companies like Spotsetter will provide recommendation services pulling ratings from 50 different sites and from your own friends. You will ask Apple's Siri, Microsoft's Cortana or Google Now where to eat sushi for example. The difference soon will be that it will search thru your friends twitter, Facebook postings, RSS feed, Youtube, and flicker accounts to include any positive references to sushi within your geographic area as well. Local, to your social circle, and global, many different data sets will be accessible. Should be interesting when this level comes online. 

Lion:  I find that fascinating.  I'd read about Spotsetter but knew nothing about it.  I think that is a killer App.  Killer.

Here is something interesting.  If you've ever "counted" the number of restaurant reviews by website, Facebook has an enormous volume of reviews.  Studying the elements of local search over the years I surveyed volumes of restaurant reviews in DC and a cross section of different cities across the country, including smaller urban markets  (as small as Erie, Pa).

Its interesting.  In major markets where Yelp put focus Yelp restaurant reviews might overwhelm Google + reviews by a range of 6-10 to 1.  Comparing Yelp to Google as a review source, its clear that Yelp is used significantly more.  What surprised me though, is that Facebook reviews generally outnumber Yelp reviews and crush the volume of Google reviews.

In smaller urban areas, where Yelp hasn't made a strong effort, their volume of restaurant reviews still outpaced Google by a factor of about 2 to 1.  In those smaller markets FB review totals again outpaced Yelp.

FB is this amazing aggregator of huge volumes of reviews.  People enjoy FB, its very effective and usable in a mobile environment, and clearly people on FB like to share their dining experiences.

BUT HERE IS THE RUB.  When you write an FB review on a restaurant, any business, or for any FB business page....IT DOESN'T SHOW ON YOUR TIMELINE!!!!!!!!

Yikes.  Your FB friends and family don't see it in your timeline.  That is quite astonishing.    Theoretically no reviews would have more impact than those reported by trusted family and friends.

And yet FB hides them!!!!!    (More on that later)

From my observations there is NOTHING as powerful as FB for getting advice on products and services.  Some of my relatives use it in this manner.  I've seen a good number of examples.

A person will ask for advice on FB for a product or local service and they get swarmed with good advice from trusted friends.  Its amazing.  I've seen this occur and reoccur with a couple of different products, and a variety of services from pediatrician doctors, to vets, to hair cuts, let alone restaurants.  The suggestions come in from good friends, they often include tremendous details, etc.

On a universal basis if FB put reviews on one's timeline it would easily be the nationwide and/or world wide leader in review reading and convey the strength of reviews.   But it doesn't showcase them.

Why???   About 1 1/2 years ago FB started cutting engagement on FB business pages.  Fewer of the people who had "fanned" or liked or followed your business page were seeing a pages uploads.  This was widely reported in the advertising press.  I know for our different SMB FB pages we saw statistics on "engagement" drop in that time by probably 75% on average.  A precipitous drop.

Clearly FB did this to get fan pages to advertise.  I guess its worked.  FB's revenues have skyrocketed.

In any case getting back to Spotsetter.  If it effectively aggregates all the suggestions and likes and comments from those one follows from around the web, let alone aggregate other comments on smbs or restaurants one might be contemplating.....that is a killer app.  Killer in my book.  Its what consumers want.  Its why DC foodies come here.  They want quality advice they trust.

Now that Apple owns it, and will apply it on mobiles and possibly on desktops....that is really a HUGE step into search.  Various surveys and attempts to quantify the volume of searches with local intent and/or local searches for businesses and services suggest at minimum 1/4 of all searches have local intent...and quite possibly a far greater percentage.  There are billions of total searches per month in the US, let alone the rest of the world.  Its enormous.

Finally the interaction and usage of search in  a search box or in a map search box.   What about that?

When Google first built google maps and the other SE's did likewise, a business that monitored its web traffic could ascertain how many visitors got to the site via Maps/Google or Maps/Yahoo or Maps/Bing vs search for any of the engines.  Separate sources of leads ie maps.google dot com   vs google dot com.

Traffic directly via maps was terribly minimal.  People were not using the separate maps indices and search alternatives.  Similarly there was data from google at that time as to how much usage each of its separate indices were used vs search.   Search saw over 90% of all usage.  All the other indices (maps, finance, etc) at the time were less than 10%.

The above is why google launched "universal search" in Spring 2007 and brought elements from its news, images, maps, and other indices into google dot com.    From the maps perspective and local search it added maps and associated data for search phrases for local businesses.

So in general when searching for smbs or restaurants I think there is an overwhelming volume of people who use Search First and a tiny minority of people who are accustomed to searching via maps directly or a maps mobile map.

Me thinks when Apple incorporates Spotsetter into Apple Maps in its fullness and richness that is a killer APP that searchers, especially potential buyers would LOVE.  OTOH, I wonder if they will enrich the responsiveness so its more of a combo search and maps response.  I think that is where consumers will be more responsive than just a maps interface.

So...lets get back to good ole' or bad ole' yelp....;).   So maybe with Spotsetter Apple doesn't need Yelp.  OTOH, Yelp could block bots from spotsetter scraping its data.  Per their last financials they claim over 77 million reviews.   That is a lot of potential data for spotsetter.  (I bet google will block the bots  ;)   I wonder what FB will do?  )

So a couple of billion dollars of Apple moolah for 77 million reviews (estimated 1/4 of them are "filtered" per yelps own comments).  Heck...I still maintain a sliver of belief Apple could buy Yelp if it is for sale.

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Check out Proactive and the mapping section of this 9to5 mac article that was published a couple of hours ago. It should help further explain the direction this mapping systems will be taking in the mobile area. 

Lion:  Interesting.

Here is something similarly interesting about the overlap of search and mapping and the tendency and enormity of spamming different consumer mapping programs, especially Google's most used system.  It also compares a relative lack of such spam on Yelp while there has been a lot on google.  My observations and efforts over time can confirm those comments and observations.

Spam hasn't really hit the restaurant business till recently.  I've read there is spamming going on now with delivery systems.  Its pretty rampant with the online hotel reservation industry.   Its rampant in certain industries such as Locksmiths, and the article references a local locksmith who has been confronting it.

Once Apple's system gets accurate it would be wise to set up programs that better defend against spamming.   Even as it is working on improving its data it is using methods similar to what google does, ie getting the data from other sources downstream who don't do much to verify data.

I guess we'll see how Apple does in this regard.   I do "know" that at one point Google hired a lot of people to verify data and clean records, but it might well be they have abandoned that effort.   Its expensive and requires a lot of staffpower.   I'm sure they can afford it, they just aren't doing it and are loath to ever go that path.  Yelp on the other hand seems to rely on human review, hence less spam but more costly.  Apple, at this stage can easily afford it.

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Data validation is always a problem with any kind of database. Confidence levels on the data communicate the validity of usage. This is a common issue regardless of which company gathers all of this POI data globally. Spamming or rigging the system definitely occurs probably with Google more than others.

Frankly, part of the attraction for me to the DR forums is that it's a curtailed but fair environment for the most part. The quality of reviews from the posters is high.

The next few years in these areas should be interesting.

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Data validation is always a problem with any kind of database. Confidence levels on the data communicate the validity of usage. This is a common issue regardless of which company gathers all of this POI data globally. Spamming or rigging the system definitely occurs probably with Google more than others.

Frankly, part of the attraction for me to the DR forums is that it's a curtailed but fair environment for the most part. The quality of reviews from the posters is high.

The next few years in these areas should be interesting.

One thing people may not realize is that I have an MS in Computer Science, and was a database sub-specialist. This website is nothing more than a giant hierarchical database, bolstered by shots of love and passion - it's a marriage of math, English, and culinary arts.

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Data validation is always a problem with any kind of database. Confidence levels on the data communicate the validity of usage. This is a common issue regardless of which company gathers all of this POI data globally. Spamming or rigging the system definitely occurs probably with Google more than others.

Frankly, part of the attraction for me to the DR forums is that it's a curtailed but fair environment for the most part. The quality of reviews from the posters is high.

The next few years in these areas should be interesting.

Thanks for the comments/observation.  The point of the article was that google has more or less deliberately ignored this issue.

It has often resulted in low level theft.  It steals from small businesses.  Google has known about it for a decade but simply won't confront it.

A rather simple method to verify real businesses was referenced by the person interviewed.  It has been used for years by one of the volunteers in MapMaker to eliminate spam.  Google knows about it and simply won't or hasn't installed anything like it.

People like Google.  I simply hope Apple does a better more responsible job in verifying data.  Its doable.

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Little Update:   Yahoo Maps shutting down.

Back when Yahoo and google first introduced their maps indices our business web sites would get more traffic from yahoo maps than google maps.  Never much in either case but generally more from yahoo.

I don't know when it's usage dropped to little or nothing.  From our perspective it was never much.

I just glanced at 2 businesses and we haven't gotten a visit via the yahoo maps index in 3 years.  We were getting traffic via the yahoo local directory...but even that has dried up.  Direct traffic via google maps is paltry, probably less and way less than it was from 7, 8, years ago; which was very little then.

On a second issue, I must admit I like the way yelp portrays info on its maps.  I searched for restaurants in Clarendon and restaurants in Old Towne Alexandria on a pc.  In both cases the accompanying map give Yelp's definition of the neighborhoods, and then 10 restaurants by info and a location on the map.  It gives one a perspective on whether you are in the "neighborhood" or not, at least by their definition.

Google on the other hand doesn't do that.   Spotsetter had referenced how they found it difficult to define precise neighborhood boundaries, which is a fair and accurate description of the process, certainly within cities.

Anyway there goes one more digital mapping system to the trash heap of history.   I do believe that the staffpower requirement to keep these things accurate is quite taxing and expensive.

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I do believe that the staffpower requirement to keep these things accurate is quite taxing and expensive.

I think the ultimate digital map is going to be crowd-sourced in some way. I don't see any way around it: We only need one of these things in the world (for general use), and people aren't going to want to keep reinventing the wheel. Like "the internet," there will be many customized layers on top of the core system, but there really should be only one core system.

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I think the ultimate digital map is going to be crowd-sourced in some way. I don't see any way around it: We only need one of these things in the world (for general use), and people aren't going to want to keep reinventing the wheel. Like "the internet," there will be many customized layers on top of the core system, but there really should be only one core system.

Open Street Map.

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I think the ultimate digital map is going to be crowd-sourced in some way. I don't see any way around it: We only need one of these things in the world (for general use), and people aren't going to want to keep reinventing the wheel. Like "the internet," there will be many customized layers on top of the core system, but there really should be only one core system.

Google, the most used mapping by the public has been crowd sourced for years.  Its not working.  Spammers mutilate it.  By spammers I mean people who purposely change and edit information for commercial purposes.  Google shut down one of the major sources of crowdsourcing almost 1 month ago and have yet to put it back up.

The interview with the person who probably forced the shut down, which I sourced upthread, exposed weaknesses

Also mapping is hugely commercial.  Huge.  There will be many different operations that develop maps.  There simply won't be one source.

Just imagine if you are married and you are having an affair.  Your gps and/or cell is identifying where you are going on a regular basis.   Want to check your movement history to see if you are visiting your paramour's place????     Check the coordinates on the mapping technology you have on yourself or auto.

Hah, forget those secret rendezvous's.   You can be tracked.

Mapping is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too commercial for any one source to be the one and only.

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Lion:

Are you aware if Open Street Map has been hit with deliberate commercial spam as has google?   By spam I mean deliberate deceptive recording of POI details on businesses.

As I've noted above one of the more "automatic" crowd sourcing elements of google maps (mapmaker) has been shut down now for almost 1 month.  By automatic I mean that the internal processes they were using to review submissions was usually completed within one day and either approved or denied quite quickly.

Meanwhile Yahoo will be shutting down all support for Yahoo Maps, and Apple has initiated its own driving/photographs mapping elements via vans criss crossing select cities.  This is what google did from 2007 to 2009 and ultimately enabled them to drop first NavTeq and later TeleAtlas as data providers.

Apple is clearly spending a lot of money to be a significant competitor to google maps and Open Street Map is already a competitor with clients such as Foursquare and Craigslist using its retail mapping resources.

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Open Street Map is an open source mapping 'source'. A source in the sense that many different kind of layers of data are available to be downloaded to be used in mapping projects. Its accuracy is improved by the users, thousands at any given time. Mapbox has a good list of information on OSM. Any defacing would be suspect in a user created and curtailed system.

Yahoo Maps! shutting down isn't a surprise. Yahoo's CEO Marissa Mayers helped create Google Maps and oversaw it before departing Google. For Yahoo it doesn't make sense to continue to support mapping endeavors since they are rebranding themselves as a content aggregator.

Apple issued a statement on their cars in the field which are currently mapping and revealing their upcoming travel schedule. Apple is spending a considerable amount of money to have a viable GIS that can be used for their ecosystem. Additionally they are not dependent upon others, which is the Apple way. For example, Apple has not used Intel chips for it's iPhone and iPad products. Instead they have used ARM customized design chips that fit the energy and processor power envelope they want for their devices.

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Lion:   You might find this entertaining.  It covers a topic we discussed above   it is written by a person who has an ax to grind with Google (he describes that history).  Provocative picture with the article!!!  The article doesn't cover the GIS/mapping element....though if this guy's perspective is correct I'm sure mapping would be a significant portion of the "assault".

(I was more entertained than swayed by the article).

Finally on the topic of self mapping via vans and video and photos.  It had to cost google a "small fortune" to do the self "mapping" with driving time, personnel and processing costs.  It took them two years.  Now Apple is doing it.  I used to be friendly with a print mapping manager for one of the major print street map providers in the country.  He stayed with the print company as the internet mapping companies hired away their workers to generate data.  He used to complain that their quality control stunk, and that the web mapping companies were using 1 person to do the work he used to have 2 or 3 do.  Could be.  It also could be the reason so many web mapping sites had very lousy data to start.  Google did and it took them about 4 or 5 years to improve POI data plus driving directions.  Apple Maps data was ripped apart when it came out in the last two years.

Google turned to driving and photos and now Apple is doing it.  Its quite possible only those two web/tech companies have the cash to pay for this endeavor.

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Google has a problem in that mobile area where they were not the leader, i.e. driver of the technology. When you are the driver like Apple was with the iPhone or iPad you can set the tone for developmental progress. Search in the mobile arena is different because screen size real estate is not available and consequently that requires Google to have to change.

Apps do not interact with the internet or web like a desktop browser traditionally has done. Apps are getting 'direct access' to particular data they need like weather, stocks, gaming servers, etc...via JSON style services. Effectively Apps are not allowing Google to data mine transactions that occur through the internet especially as data is starting to be encrypted. When Google looses that information, they loose the marketing, ad click, etc... share which is where a majority of the revenue comes from at this point from my understanding. This doesn't mean Google is in any imminent level of collapsing rather the appearance is one of a cooling off period.

Search or perhaps suggestions on mobile platform is going to take a different course than before. You will want your watch or phone to suggest where you should eat sushi for example. Or suggest these highly rated restaurants from your friends comments or from a curtailed reviewed source.

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Google has a problem in that mobile area where they were not the leader, i.e. driver of the technology. When you are the driver like Apple was with the iPhone or iPad you can set the tone for developmental progress. Search in the mobile arena is different because screen size real estate is not available and consequently that requires Google to have to change.

Apps do not interact with the internet or web like a desktop browser traditionally has done. Apps are getting 'direct access' to particular data they need like weather, stocks, gaming servers, etc...via JSON style services. Effectively Apps are not allowing Google to data mine transactions that occur through the internet especially as data is starting to be encrypted. When Google looses that information, they loose the marketing, ad click, etc... share which is where a majority of the revenue comes from at this point from my understanding. This doesn't mean Google is in any imminent level of collapsing rather the appearance is one of a cooling off period.

Search or perhaps suggestions on mobile platform is going to take a different course than before. You will want your watch or phone to suggest where you should eat sushi for example. Or suggest these highly rated restaurants from your friends comments or from a curtailed reviewed source.

Google's plan to deal with Apps-kill em!!!!  ;)

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Yes, that's Google's strategy with Google Now. However not allowing developers to monetize any part of the informational transaction means there is no incentive for them to develop. Apple has paid app developers $30 billion dollars since it's App Store's creation. In the IT world, having momentum with software development, etc... can affect who is the winner format. It will be interesting to see the next five years since clearly everybody sees the automobile as the next phase.

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Here is something a little interesting about mapspam :  A google patent recently published.   Of course they filed this back in 2011.  Maybe they have been using this.  Maybe not.  I do know that one of the mapmaker reviewers  that works to fight the spam on POI's via the crowdsourcing method they have relied on, Mapmaker, has been using this for years....and he's suggested this to google.  (BTW:  His name isn't on the patent)  ;)

I used street view to try and get spammy businesses delisted from maps and the google directory.  I know it had to be before 2011.  BTW:  Google didn't buy into that evidence at the time.  :D  (shrugs)

It wouldn't work for everything, needless to say, but it is one possible tool.

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I can see how spam would be a problem for your SEO business. Google is always looking to automate processes and POI validation via photographs would be one avenue. Every photograph taken with a smart phone has LAT/LONG coordinates attached to the metadata associated with that file. Part of Apple's can mapping drive is to replace photographs for businesses instead of using the Yelp image in their pin listings.

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