What Do You Do with Two Weeks in Western Europe in November?

astrid · September 1, 2015

We just booked tickets to Paris for mid-November. Now we're wondering what we should do once we land at Charles de Gaulle.

Originally we were planning to fly into Barcelona or Madrid, and focus on Spain. But from Paris the possibilities widen up substantially - we could still focus on Spain/Portugal and tag on a few days in Paris, we could tour France and add on Northern Italy and Switzerland, we could see the low country, or maybe even Central Europe or the Balkans. I've never been to Europe and +1 hasn't been there in more than a decade. So we have no idea what to expect or what to see, and we're open to anything since it'll all be new to me. There are obviously tons of guides and lists talking about the virtues of various itineraries, but we're certainly value the opinions of people who care deeply about what they eat while traveling.

So my question to the well-travelled and/or well-daydreamed DR posters - where would you go with 2 weeks in mid November, starting and ending in Paris? Are there anything that you love and must see?

ktmoomau · September 1, 2015

Well definitely spend some time in Paris!! Don't skimp on that. After that, if you haven't been to London that isn't far away. I also loved Normandy and Brittagne. You could also take rail to Munich and see some of Bavaria I did that and rail that way was pretty easy to get anywhere from Paris. We liked Zurich (with London both not cheap but neat to see). Madrid and Barcelona are very cool. Are you more into landscape, scenery, outdoor activities, cities, museums? This is hard to answer because really the answer is anything or everything.

astrid · September 1, 2015

Normally, we're the sort who run for the hills and shy away from big cities. But this being my first time in Europe and in November, I think we would spend most of our time in cities gawking at old pictures and older building. After a little research, I'm thinking this itinerary might work for us (we have 14 days on the ground, plus a 1/3 day in Paris before flying back):

Paris (leave immediately)

Barcelona (via train)

San Sebastian (via train or bus)

?Madrid? (via train)

Montpellier or Marseille (via train)

Then spend 4-5 days driving around Southeastern France

Then spend 2-3 days in Paris

astrid · September 1, 2015

Though I am really curious about what DR posters want to do on their hypothetical November vacation, given the constraints...

hillvalley · September 1, 2015

If you've never been to Paris you deserve to give yourself more than 2-3 days. As I've posted elsewhere, it's a magical place. Save it for the end of your trip but give yourself at least 3-4 days.

You're eating up a good chunk of time by taking the train to Barcelona; it's about a 6 hour ride Instead, I would fly to Paris and then get a direct flight to Barcelona, which is less than two hours. Check EasyJet, Veuling, Ryan Air, etc. for cheap flights. Then train it to San Sebastian, which is supposed to be lovely.

I would add Switzerland to your list. The Alps are like nothing else you will see in Europe and this is coming from someone who is not a huge hiker, skier, etc. Bern is lovely and often overlooked. If you want a taste of Italy without going there, Ticino, the Italian section of Switzerland, is stunning.

DonRocks · September 2, 2015

Barcelona (via train)

San Sebastian (via train or bus)

?Madrid? (via train)

Montpellier or Marseille (via train)

Do not train from Paris to anywhere in the South (Spain or France). It is notoriously slow once you get into the south, and a waste of time. You're already there - spend the money and fly. *Or* train overnight and get a sleeping car. I think you're trying to squeeze in too much - leave Madrid for another time, at the minimum. Or, see Madrid and leave the Southeast of France for another time; one or the other - not both.

From Barcelona, you can drive to San Sebastian, cut across the north of the Pyrenées (spend a night in Carcassonne), and either drive back down to Barcelona, or keep going east to Marseille, either way flying back to Paris. I did this Barcelona-Barcelona circuit in 2011, and it's doable in about 4-5 days, not including Bordeaux (but as long as you're there, see some prehistoric cave art in the Dordogne Valley (I've heard Lascaux is closed, and that's tragic - the paintings are almost 20,000 years old)). Consider also getting an "open jaws" flight, arriving in one place, and departing from another (Marseille, Lyon, Nice, etc.). Generally speaking, San Sebastian (Bilbao, etc.) isn't a Paris-based trip; it's a Barcelona-based trip - to throw a wrench into your plans, San Sebastian is about the most beautiful city I've ever seen. And when you get back from it, you're going to curse DC restaurants for charging $9 for a glass of Txakoli.

Consider also jettisoning the South and going West to Versailles, Honfleur, Normandy (D-Day museum, American cemetery (tell the older people you're American and they'll do everything but get down on their knees to thank you)) Mont St-Michel, Bayeux (tapestry museum - maybe the finest museum I've ever seen), bike the Loire Valley and visit Chinon, Chenonceau, etc. Unless you *really* want to drive, spend your time in France; not in a car. Also, Champagne is only about 90 minutes east of Paris (under no circumstances should you have a car in Paris). Having typed this paragraph, and having done these things only once in my life, I want to do these a second time about as much as anything I want to do in this world.

I'm a big believer in what Rick Steves preaches when it comes to travel. I paraphrase: 'Cherish what you're unable to fit in, because you have something to look forward to.' Don't spend all your time traveling. You could spend two weeks *just* in Paris, but if you want a smattering of things, buy 2 to 22 days in France. Buy it *now*, read it cover-to-cover, and start planning. I may even have a copy if you can't find one, but it's a *great* travel guide (ignore the backpack-hippy-granola aspect if you want; it's chock-full of great stuff, even if it's an old edition).

ol_ironstomach · September 2, 2015

What Don said. Two weeks is barely enough time to sample three cities plus side trips. Oh, and pack a good mosquito repellent; theirs suck. And although we almost never ran into a situation where a merchant couldn't deal with an antiquated magstripe credit card, try to find a "primary chip-and-PIN" card with zero foreign exchange fees, or at least ask your existing card issuer if they can send you an EMV (chip) card even if it's only chip-and-signature.

Just a few words to add about Paris, where we spent a few days in June: Paris is magic, and will consume your thoughts of traipsing down old streets for days. Forget the car, use the handy rail systems, splurge on lodgings in the 1er or 2eme, walk everywhere, and get good at spotting where the taxi stand signs are. If taking in an art museum, book the d'Orsay tickets online (the collection is much more than Impressionists, but hey, you must see theirs in a lifetime) to avoid standing in line. For the Louvre, splurge on a guided tour from Paris Muse. Their guides are very knowledgeable (ours was a professor from the nearby Paris branch of the Parsons School), and working from planned narratives that will help to combat the sensory overload of such a vast palace museum. It's also much more fascinating to look at the milestone pieces with a fresh dose of historical context right there. The fact that they arrange admission so you bypass all the lines is almost just a nice side bonus.

If planning a bit of roaming the countryside in a rental car (hey, that's where most of the medieval cathedrals are), I found it easy to do so at one of the peripheral train stations. At the Gare de Lyon, for instance, the Hertz office is situated in a parking garage, which keeps pickup and dropoff simple. Note that most rental companies will show several rates for the same vehicle, at wildly disparate prices, often approaching a factor of 2. The difference is mainly insurance. To use the lower rate, you'll need *primary* insurance...a World Elite MC provides this as a cardholder benefit outside of the US, or with AmEx you can add their "premium" car coverage (in advance) for $25 per rental period; both have limitations on types of vehicle, and certain countries.

ktmoomau · September 2, 2015

Normally, we're the sort who run for the hills and shy away from big cities. But this being my first time in Europe and in November, I think we would spend most of our time in cities gawking at old pictures and older building. After a little research, I'm thinking this itinerary might work for us (we have 14 days on the ground, plus a 1/3 day in Paris before flying back):

Paris (leave immediately)

Barcelona (via train)

San Sebastian (via train or bus)

?Madrid? (via train)

Montpellier or Marseille (via train)

Then spend 4-5 days driving around Southeastern France

Then spend 2-3 days in Paris

I too think this isn't enough time in certain places. I would cut Marseille. Paris- I would give myself no less than 4 days. Barcelona you will want at least 3. That is one week right there. I would potentially think about doing either Madrid or Barcelona. Barcelona can really hold its own as a stand alone trip. Madrid paired with other towns in the south of Spain is a nice trip on it's own too. I like Barcelona way more than Madrid, so I would pick Barcelona. Why not fly from Paris to Barcelona, then get to San Sebastian via rail or plane, then 4-5 days driving SE France, drop off the car off at a city you can hop a pretty quick rail or flight back to Paris?

astrid · September 2, 2015

Thanks all the voices of experience and reason! I've trimmed the itinerary down a bit (out goes Madrid and Marseilles).

6 days in rental car

2+ days in Barcelona

2+ days in San Sebastian

Half day in Bilbao

3 days plus two partial days in Paris

It looks like Air France runs a discount flight service between Paris and Bilbao, so it definitely makes sense to return to Paris by plane and save a transport day.

It looks like affordable one way car rental is available from CdG to Montpellier, and Barcelona to Bilbao airport, so that will give us some flexibility in terms of ground transport. I know this time allocation is still pretty sparse on Paris and Barcelona, but I think it gives us enough time to take in a few delights of each city, while saving others for (hopeful) future trips.

Thanks also for the recommendations regarding DEET, Muse tours, staying close-in (finding some nice sounding airbnb whole studios in 1^st Arrondissment for under $150/night).

DonRocks · September 2, 2015

Thanks all the voices of experience and reason! I've trimmed the itinerary down a bit (out goes Madrid and Marseilles).

6 days in rental car

2+ days in Barcelona

2+ days in San Sebastian

Half day in Bilbao

3 days plus two partial days in Paris

It looks like Air France runs a discount flight service between Paris and Bilbao, so it definitely makes sense to return to Paris by plane and save a transport day.

It looks like affordable one way car rental is available from CdG to Montpellier, and Barcelona to Bilbao airport, so that will give us some flexibility in terms of ground transport. I know this time allocation is still pretty sparse on Paris and Barcelona, but I think it gives us enough time to take in a few delights of each city, while saving others for (hopeful) future trips.

Thanks also for the recommendations regarding DEET, Muse tours, staying close-in (finding some nice sounding airbnb whole studios in 1^st Arrondissment for under $150/night).

You can get a full flavor of San Sebastian in two days; you don't need the "+". Stay within walking distance of the tapas; in Barcelona, stay near a train stop and buy your tickets to La Sagrada Familia online. Read those last eight words, ten times. Trust me on this one.

The Hersch · September 3, 2015

The first time I visited Europe as an adult, I had about three weeks, and visited Berchtesgaden with family, then Munich, Milan, Florence, Amsterdam, and London, and it was mostly a terrible mistake. Knowing what I know now (having spent considerable time in Paris), if I were flying into Paris, I'd probably spend two weeks in Paris, perhaps with day trips by train. Or stay in Paris for a week, and then spend a second week in one other place, or one other area, such as northern Spain or Provence. Unless you think you'll never get back to Europe again, I think it's a big mistake to visit lots of places. If you go to Provence, you must spend a few days in Aix-en-Provence, which is among the loveliest places I've ever been. If you go to northern Spain, San Sebastian is beautiful, but I fell in love with Bilbao (which surprised me; it's a beautiful city). Having a car is something of a handicap in most European cities, but it's great to have one to explore the countryside and visit small places where the train doesn't stop. An automobile tour of Provence and the Cote d'Azure would be a very good idea. If you could fly into Paris and out of Nice, that might be a really nice itinerary. Fly to Paris, train to Aix (or plane to Marseille and train to Aix from there), rental car from Aix to Nice, with many stops in between, and perhaps a little beyond: St.-Jean-Cap-Ferrat is astonishingly beautiful. The drive along the coast from, say, Sainte-Maxime to Cannes is spectacular, and when I say spectacular I mean spectacular.

ETA: Having just refreshed my memory, the coastal road doesn't get all that spectacular until you pass Fréjus.

astrid · September 3, 2015

You can get a full flavor of San Sebastian in two days; you don't need the "+".

But there are so many world class restaurants in San Sebastian! :-)

astrid · September 3, 2015

The first time I visited Europe as an adult, I had about three weeks, and visited Berchtesgaden with family, then Munich, Milan, Florence, Amsterdam, and London, and it was mostly a terrible mistake. Knowing what I know now (having spent considerable time in Paris), if I were flying into Paris, I'd probably spend two weeks in Paris, perhaps with day trips by train. Or stay in Paris for a week, and then spend a second week in one other place, or one other area, such as northern Spain or Provence. Unless you think you'll never get back to Europe again, I think it's a big mistake to visit lots of places. If you go to Provence, you must spend a few days in Aix-en-Provence, which is among the loveliest places I've ever been. If you go to northern Spain, San Sebastian is beautiful, but I fell in love with Bilbao (which surprised me; it's a beautiful city). Having a car is something of a handicap in most European cities, but it's great to have one to explore the countryside and visit small places where the train doesn't stop. An automobile tour of Provence and the Cote d'Azure would be a very good idea. If you could fly into Paris and out of Nice, that might be a really nice itinerary. Fly to Paris, train to Aix (or plane to Marseille and train to Aix from there), rental car from Aix to Nice, with many stops in between, and perhaps a little beyond: St.-Jean-Cap-Ferrat is astonishingly beautiful. The drive along the coast from, say, Sainte-Maxime to Cannes is spectacular, and when I say spectacular I mean spectacular.

ETA: Having just refreshed my memory, the coastal road doesn't get all that spectacular until you pass Fréjus.

I definitely see the arguments for spending a generous amount of time in Paris and Barcelona for a first trip. However, I'm balancing that with my personal aversions to large cities "“ we haven't found them as enjoyable as other places we visit while traveling. Of course, I don't have any experience with European cities and I did enjoy Montreal the best of all the cities that I have visited, so it's entirely possible that I would enjoy European cities much more than North American or Asian ones. So I'm trying to set the length of my stays to balance the two inclinations.

The other concern with a lengthy stay in Paris is that the trip is in November, so likely to be chilly and dreary and dark outside. That's also our concern with any side trip to London, NW France, or Germany.

Your description of Provence and the coast sounds stunning. I'll have to look into that. My original thought was to focus more on the Alps for the driving portion of the trip, but Provence in November sounds much better and the Alps can perhaps be reserved for a future warm weather month trip.

DonRocks · September 3, 2015

Having a car is something of a handicap in most European cities, but it's great to have one to explore the countryside and visit small places where the train doesn't stop.

The airport(s) are a fairly long train ride to the city, so you can either land, rent a car, and bypass Paris when you arrive; or, you can train into Paris, and when you're ready to leave, rent a car locally right before you do. There are some pretty shady rental-car operators in Paris, so spend at least a little time investigating where you might want to rent, and make *sure* to go with a national (if not worldwide) company because you'll possibly be dropping it off elsewhere. These are two very different options, and the very nature of your trip will depend on which you choose. I, too, prefer the countryside and smaller towns, even to Paris (which is about as great as a big city can be), but if you're going to stay in Paris, plan on at least a few days, and buy a comfortable pair of walking shoes because you'll be walking a lot - you'll *want* to walk a lot.

But there are so many world class restaurants in San Sebastian! :-)

Ah, you didn't say this. If you're star-hunting, you can spend a lot of time in San Sebastian (and you *do* want a car for this - having a car in San Sebastian is not that much of a problem), but I would spend my first night there tapas-hopping regardless, and leave the car behind.

This was a pretty amazing coincidence. (Part Two of the story)

ktmoomau · September 3, 2015

Don's recommendation for online tickets is a good note, we bought all our Gaudi tickets online and that was great. I would also just say as a tip, if you don't have advance tickets, I have found in France that often if you go past the end of the main line, you will find electronic kiosks for tickets with less of a line. I would leave Mom at the end just in case, go find the electronic kiosk get the tickets, then go back and get her. We did this for a lot of the big art museums in Paris and etc. I can't remember if I put that on my trip report for Paris.

The Hersch · September 3, 2015

Your description of Provence and the coast sounds stunning. I'll have to look into that. My original thought was to focus more on the Alps for the driving portion of the trip, but Provence in November sounds much better and the Alps can perhaps be reserved for a future warm weather month trip.

Provence and the Alps aren't mutually exclusive. The historic province of Provence comprises the modern départements of Var and Alpes de Haute Provence, as well as parts of Bouches du Rhí´ne and Alpes Maritimes, all of which are at least partly Alpine. Not like the really high Alps farther north, but with plenty of rugged, beautiful terrain, and picturesque perched villages. From the window of my hotel in Aix-en-Provence, I had a view of Sainte-Victoire, the subject of many paintings by Cézanne, Aix's favorite son. Like this:

Okay, it was a little farther off, and I don't think it's technically an Alp, but still. The hotel was St. Christophe, and I recommend it.

If you're not really that keen on spending much time in Paris, you might consider skipping it and flying into Nice. Drive to Aix, exploring Provence as you go, and then drive to San Sebastian, which Google tells me is only 6 hours 40 minutes by car from Aix, and you'll pass through some incredibly beautiful country. I haven't driven that exact trip, but I did drive from Perpignan to Toulouse to Biarritz to San Sebastian, and it was lovely. If anyone is a fan of the late Victorian author George Gissing (as I am), you can stop in St.-Jean-de-Luz and visit his grave.

silentbob · September 3, 2015

But there are so many world class restaurants in San Sebastian! :-)

If you're renting a car, I highly recommend driving an hour outside San Sebastian to Asador Etxebarri. What I don't recommend is having the tasting menu there for lunch and then dinner at Mugaritz six hours later, as we did on our honeymoon. Both great meals individually, not something I'd want to experience together again though!

porcupine · September 4, 2015

We just booked tickets to Paris for mid-November. Now we're wondering what we should do once we land at Charles de Gaulle.

I'm sure you already know this, so forgive me, but I have to state the importance of having all your affairs in order and making sure that someone close knows all the details of your plans. And buy insurance that covers emergency medical evacuation. And have contact numbers for American Citizen Services/American Embassy for every area you're visiting, even though they're first world countries.

And, bon voyage.

astrid · September 4, 2015

Thanks mom :-) (actually, my mom wouldn't think of this, so you're better than my mom).

It looks like CdG has high speed rail connections to Nice and Avignon. There's are also cheap flights. So it's definitely possible to construct a car trip from Nice to Toulouse, then take the overnight train to Barcelona. There's another overnight train between Barcelona and San Sebastian. And cheap flights available between Bilbao and Paris. So the transportation options are looking pretty good "“ I hadn't previously internalized how much easier European transport can be, compared to the US fly or drive dichotomy.

If this would tempt anyone into a trip this fall, I will say that airbnb currently has lots of tempting listings for all the cities we're looking at. We just booked a 5 star reviewed (with 100+ review) studio in 2^nd Arr. for under $90 per night. And there are some well-reviewed studios in the 1^st and 2^nd Arr. in the $60-80 range. High hotel costs had been a big mental stumbling block for us for Europe, so thank goodness for airbnb. Plus, Air France's Dulles to CdG direct flights were not much more than domestic flights. And with the low Euro, Michelin 3 stars can be had for under $200.

DonRocks · September 7, 2015

It looks like CdG has high speed rail connections to Nice and Avignon.

NO!

The TGV (Train de Grande Vitesse) is high-speed for the first 75% of the trip; then, you plod, and stop, and wait, and plod, and stop, and wait some more.

50% of the trip, time-wise, is probably Avignon to Nice. Be *very* careful about committing to this - don't make the same mistake I made. Taking the Paris-Nice train was a *terrible* mistake.

I thought it would be *so clever* taking the train, since it was an Air France (appropriately known in French as Air Chance) package deal. Matt's poor mom was pregnant, sick to her stomach, and it was a hell-trip - check the time-tables to make sure things haven't improved, but I remember that being an eight-hour train ride.

Kibbee Nayee · September 7, 2015

My dream trip to Europe would be Paris to Munich by car, lingering for days on end -- and eating and drinking like crazy -- through Lyon and Dijon, up through Strasbourg and the Alsace, then down through Bavaria and into and around Munich. I would fly back from Munich, with a full belly and a satisfied life.

astrid · September 8, 2015

Non-refundable ~~train~~ plane tickets have been purchased. We're going to spend 10 days driving from Nice to Biarritz, stopping in Aix-en-Provence, Carcasson, Lourdes, San Sebastian (oh yes!), and Bilbao along the way. We decided to forgo Barcelona altogether, so that we can devote more attention to it in the future (also to try and fit in an extra San Sebastian 3 star without having to eat at Martin Beratesgui and Azurmundi on the same day). That leaves us 4 full days plus two half days in Paris, and I already have a Paris Wish List that's 20+ restaurants long.

Anyone here ever gotten a reservation for Abri, Frenchie, Septime, or Le Chateaubriand? I think we can work our way into the latter three but Abri sounds like an impossible restaurant. We're also pondering where to drop the big lunch bucks in Paris - Le Cinq, l'Arpege, or Ledoyen?

DonRocks · September 8, 2015

Non-refundable ~~train~~ plane tickets have been purchased. We're going to spend 10 days driving from Nice to Biarritz, stopping in Aix-en-Provence, Carcasson, Lourdes, San Sebastian (oh yes!), and Bilbao along the way. We decided to forgo Barcelona altogether, so that we can devote more attention to it in the future (also to try and fit in an extra San Sebastian 3 star without having to eat at Martin Beratesgui and Azurmundi on the same day). That leaves us 4 full days plus two half days in Paris, and I already have a Paris Wish List that's 20+ restaurants long.

Anyone here ever gotten a reservation for Abri, Frenchie, Septime, or Le Chateaubriand? I think we can work our way into the latter three but Abri sounds like an impossible restaurant. We're also pondering where to drop the big lunch bucks in Paris - Le Cinq, l'Arpege, or Ledoyen?

Good, so you can go to Michel Bras in Laguiole.

astrid · September 8, 2015

Should I go for the cutlery?

DonRocks · September 8, 2015

Should I go for the cutlery?

I would certainly pay you to bring me back a corkscrew, but you should go to realize how superior high-level French cuisine is to modern Spanish.

astrid · September 8, 2015

Unfortunately, the restaurant is closed during the times when we'll be closest to it.

I have high hopes for Le Cinq for representing French haute cuisine, though my better half is still working through his outrage at *100+ Euros for just the entree!* aspect of a possible meal.

DonRocks · September 8, 2015

Look, I have more reason to love Nice than anyone on this website, but I can safely say this: "It's a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit there."

The irony is that I consider San Sebastian a smaller, cleaner, nicer, more beautiful version of Nice. In every way (except one), I would rather be in San Sebastian than Nice. Talk to me privately if you're going to spend any time there, and don't forget Monaco is only an hour away; but so is Marseille and authentic bouillabaisse - and that's going in the right direction. Your route will be dotted with very worthwhile (and some not worthwhile) Michelin 2-stars, and I can help you sort them out.

In Paris, part of what you're paying for is being in Paris. Michel Bras would have been the best restaurant you've ever experienced.

astrid · September 8, 2015

Paris (CdG) to Nice by train is now about 5.5 hours, so it's actually not too bad. But flying is a bit faster and considerably cheaper than taking the train.

We probably won't stay in Nice, but I am hoping that it will be a nice starting point to see the French Riviera.

DonRocks · September 8, 2015

Paris (CdG) to Nice by train is now about 5.5 hours, so it's actually not too bad. But flying is a bit faster and considerably cheaper than taking the train.

We probably won't stay in Nice, but I am hoping that it will be a nice starting point to see the French Riviera.

Nice is worth one day, especially when you're already there and you might be able to stay for free with a native.

The Hersch · September 9, 2015

Non-refundable ~~train~~ plane tickets have been purchased. We're going to spend 10 days driving from Nice to Biarritz, stopping in Aix-en-Provence, Carcasson, Lourdes, San Sebastian (oh yes!), and Bilbao along the way. We decided to forgo Barcelona altogether, so that we can devote more attention to it in the future (also to try and fit in an extra San Sebastian 3 star without having to eat at Martin Beratesgui and Azurmundi on the same day). That leaves us 4 full days plus two half days in Paris, and I already have a Paris Wish List that's 20+ restaurants long.

Anyone here ever gotten a reservation for Abri, Frenchie, Septime, or Le Chateaubriand? I think we can work our way into the latter three but Abri sounds like an impossible restaurant. We're also pondering where to drop the big lunch bucks in Paris - Le Cinq, l'Arpege, or Ledoyen?

I had lost sight of the fact that you started this whole thread saying that you had booked a roundtrip flight to Paris. Driving from Nice to Biarritz is a very good idea, and you should have a blast. Do consider the Hotel St. Christophe in Aix. My friend and I loved it. It's in a terrific location and we had a little suite on two levels, with a living room with a tiny balcony on the lower level, and a sort of mezzanine bedroom above, and it wasn't all that expensive. And we really did have a view of Sainte-Victoire, as well as of the housetops of the town. The hotel restaurant, Brasserie Léopold, is very good. Aix-en-Provence itself is entrancing. It's quite "picturesque", but isn't just a tourist venue; there are something like 60 thousand students in Aix, or so I've read. I was reading M.F.K. Fisher's Map of Another Town, her memoir of Aix, while I was there, and it was just utterly perfect. It's a wonderful book, which you might want to have a look at.

You might consider reading George Gissing's last completed novel, Will Warburton, one of his best books, which has a scene set in or outside St.-Jean-de-Luz, and then visit the town, which is charming, and Gissing's grave. He died in 1903. A lot of sources online say that Gissing is buried in the English cemetery in St.-Jean-de-Luz, but no such thing exists. He's buried in the plain old cemetery, the name and location of which I forget. The town's main church is where Louis XIV was married, and is incredibly interesting. When I first visited the town in 1993, I was able to enter the church and walk around in it; when I returned a few years ago there was no getting into it. I don't know if that's its usual condition nowadays, but it's certainly worth a visit if it's open.

In San Sebastian, my friend and I stayed at the Maria Cristina hotel, which was extremely expensive and worth every penny. The grandest, most gorgeous hotel I've ever slept in. We had a balcony with a view of the river and the Bay of Biscay.

I can't recommend the hotels we stayed in in Biarritz or Bilbao, but I really recommend Bilbao. I visited Aix and Bilbao on two different trips, but they're among the places I've most loved being in.

DonRocks · September 9, 2015

Aix-en-Provence itself is entrancing.

One word: Calissons.

Enjoy them there, and bring them home as gifts - the tins are easy to pack, and will get through customs. Both the small and large ones are equally delicious; I prefer the small ones so I can have them on more occasions.

Sneaking in your tins of foie gras from Périgord can be more problematic, but doable since they're sealed in metal, the key word being *preserved* (even though it's not true, use it).

If questioned, just lie and say everything you brought back has been "aged for over 90 days," "pasteurized," and "preserved." You can also have things shipped for you.

Hamilton Johnson posted this on his Facebook wall the other day:

228350194_LegalAutomaticWeapons_IllegalF

ktmoomau · September 9, 2015

I saw this article and thought of you:

"If You Only Have Three Days in Paris" by Lindsey Tramuta on afar.com

astrid · September 10, 2015

Thanks for the possible offer of free Nice lodging. We probably won't have time to stay over in Nice, unfortunately. I've already committed 5 of the 10 travel days to Bilbao/San Sebastian (Extebarri, Akelarre, Martin Berasategui, and Azurmundi have been booked for separate days. Arzak is sadly closed for vacation while we're visiting) and aspire to drive some slow hairpin roads in the Pyrenees. So the first part of the trip will have to cover a lot of ground each day in daylight, which will be less than 10 hours a day during that time of the year.

Thank you all for your suggestions on this thread! They have been tremendously helpful for us in figuring out the best itinerary for the trip. So the bones of the trip are now in place and now comes the hard decisions like - there "are a bazillion pinxo bars and they all look amazing" and "we only have how many lunches and dinners for ALL OF PARIS" (okay, also "how much more are we going to spend on food than everything else" and "are we crazy"?). We're so lucky to have these problems!

astrid · September 10, 2015

My experience with US customs is that they're ridiculously strict on meat products while being indifferent to seafood or vegetable products. So I'm going to try my luck with Spanish tinned fish - though they're so expensive that it'll represent a substantial loss if they are confiscated.

As for foie gras - after my rather indulgent repeated visits to Ratinaud in Halifax this spring, I think what I really need is to bring back a poultry crazed Frenchman and set him up in a gentrifying part of DC. How much is that in excess weight charges?

hillvalley · September 10, 2015

I brought back tinned fish from Lisbon and canned foie gras from France without a problem. Meats that were not in tins or cans are another story. It is worth finding shops in touristy areas that are selling tinned fish; they will have a better idea of what will and will not get through. I declared both, had to go through a second layer of screenings and was fine.

I know people who have gotten amazing charcuterie from all over Europe through customs without a problem while others have had their goods confiscated.

DonRocks · September 10, 2015

I brought back tinned fish from Lisbon and canned foie gras from France without a problem. Meats that were not in tins or cans are another story. It is worth finding shops in touristy areas that are selling tinned fish; they will have a better idea of what will and will not get through. I declared both, had to go through a second layer of screenings and was fine.

I know people who have gotten amazing charcuterie from all over Europe through customs without a problem while others have had their goods confiscated.

As a last resort, Duty Free in Paris is surprisingly good. Stick with tinned foods just to be safe - they're very good, and there's virtually no risk. Honestly, unless I see something really special (which I'd have to lug around with me), I just wait for Duty Free coming back - save some room in your carry-on.

And especially with foie gras, don't wait for a special occasion - these things really do have a life span, and you should pay attention to the expiration date (which is usually at least a year in the future) - I've waited longer than that, and while it's still edible, it turns a sickly gray. Just enjoy it, and remember that you can always buy more.

Remember the words "preserved" and "Pasteurized." Use them at customs, over and over again if you need to. You won't have any problems.

Also, I buy vacuum-packed cheeses and charcuterie to enjoy on the plane. They're not awesome, and they really *are* Pasteurized, but they're still pretty good, and if you have some crackers, you'll have a nice meal. And you certainly don't have to worry about customs with anything you've already consumed. Hell, buy some wine while you're at it; just make sure it's screwtop.

The Hersch · September 10, 2015

I'm pretty sure that tinned fish is totally legal to bring into the US. I think it was my last trip to the Riviera, I brought some tinned tuna back. I foolishly declared it on the customs form (as "food" I guess), and was directed to a long, long line (I think it was at JFK). As I was slowly moving forward in the queue, an agent asked me "whatcha got?" and I said "canned tuna" and he opened the rope-barrier and told me to have a nice day.

I have brought lardo back from Italy, in plastic packaging, which is almost certainly forbidden, but I got away with it. I think that confiscation would have been the worst penalty I might have faced.

astrid · September 10, 2015

I have the worst luck with customs, they'll even confiscate rousong, something that is made by cooking pork for hours until it falls apart, and then air dried until it looks like slightly crunchy brown dryer lint. No possibility of anything alive after all that.

Is canned foie gras any good? Or would I be better off ordering from D'Artagnan or Hudson Valley?

DonRocks · September 10, 2015

I have the worst luck with customs, they'll even confiscate rousong, something that is made by cooking pork for hours until it falls apart, and then air dried until it looks like slightly crunchy brown dryer lint. No possibility of anything alive after all that.

Is canned foie gras any good? Or would I be better off ordering from D'Artagnan or Hudson Valley?

No, canned foie gras is very good - the ones marked lobe en entière (whole lobe) are better than the ones marked terrine (and priced accordingly), but the terrines are fine as well - they're 100% foie gras, and they make for wonderful spreads. If you want to splurge, go for the ones avec truffes - they're just bits, but you can taste and smell them.

The ones that are whole lobe melt right before your eyes if they aren't chilled a bit beforehand, so take heed - the ones encased in bocaux (glass jars) are notoriously difficult to open.

Do not hesitate to bring back 2-3 tins of inexpensive foie gras terrine. Duty Free at CDG is my friend.

Have one on the one-week anniversary of your trip - after all, you've just experienced France ... what's not to celebrate? These are not fifty bucks; they're more like twenty, so eat, drink, and be married. And while you're enjoying it, plan your next vacation. Isn't that what life is about?

One last thing: Avoid the tins marked "Páté de Campagne" (Country Páté) because you'll be playing Russian Roulette - they're mostly pork, and I've had some that are very good, and some that are almost literally like dog food.

johnl · September 10, 2015

Pat and I ate our way across Portugal and northern Spain for almost three weeks in the summer of 2014. We didn't go many places that required a reservation, only places we could walk into and use my broken Portuguese or Spanish or the servers' better English. We traveled by train, bus, or taxi; we never rented a car.

Portugal: Lisboa, Porto, Braga (stayed here a while, as the people paid my way).

Spain: Vigo, La Coruí±a, Oviedo, Bilbao (lunch), Getaria (extended), Barcelona (extended).

I ate a lot of fresh fish prepared with little more than garlic and oil on grills outside little local places that seated about 20. I'd wash the fish and maybe some fresh veggies down with a half bottle of local Albarií±o or some neighborhood vino (usually costing just a couple of Euros).

astrid · September 10, 2015

Did you eat at Elkano in Getaria, by any chance?

astrid · October 24, 2015

A bit of pre-trip announcement. We're going to try all the non-Arzak Michelin 3-Stars in the Basque-lands ( plus Extebarri - I'm expecting amazing things from Extebarri). Also Michel Bras because of Don's rather vocal recommendations. Also going to Le Cinq and Le Clos Y and David Toutain in Paris. Hopefully, we will also go to Septime and Frenchie, if we can play thefork,com's reservation lottery correctly. We'll also have time to eat a lot of tapas in between those meals. Also - Paris patisseries and chocolate shops and Languiole steak knives for Don...

Anyone with other recommendations? Esp. for Cote d'Azur and Provence?

I'm so psyched over this right now. I will definitely report back on what I find in Europe.

DonRocks · October 24, 2015

Anyone with other recommendations? Esp. for Cote d'Azur and Provence?

Don't ask this unless you mean it: Other than DC, I know this area better than any other - my MIL and her sister just left last night for Nice after staying for two weeks. *I have food in my refrigerator*!

How deep do you want to go with the fine dining, and how many days will you have? How far north are you willing to go? (I ask because of Le Clos des Cimes, but there's also La Bastide de Saint-Antoine, and numerous others that won't take you so far out of your way.)

astrid · October 24, 2015

We will have 5 days to make our way from Nice to Bilbao, so far, only Michel Bras has been booked.

DonRocks · October 24, 2015

We will have 5 days to make our way from Nice to Bilbao, so far, only Michel Bras has been booked.

Does this include San Sebastian? I'm afraid you're detouring too far north. If you want fine dining, head directly west from Nice Airport without staying (but I can give you a free place to stay in Nice if you want it). You absolutely don't need Michel Bras; Jacques Chibois is just fine, and you can be there relatively quickly from the airport. Consider canceling Bras - it doesn't look far, but it's one hell of a drive; hug the southern route instead (you can still see Grasse, Marseille (bouillabaisse - budget several hours and lots of money (have it with a bottle of Cassis Blanc, and find a non-touristy restaurant that does a traditional rendition if it's your first-ever version; the first one I linked to may be touristy (or not), and the second is a Michelin 3-star that isn't traditional, but interestingly, the chef (Gérald Passédat) gave me a recommendation for where to get one (he steered me to a very clubby, British-looking place with a good whiskey selection, near the port - it was 15 years ago, but if it's still there, it's a culinary must - I spent *8 hours* dining that day)))), Ní®mes (Pont du Gard), Arles, Avignon, Cannes, Aix-en-Provence (calissons), Carcassonne (make sure to stay inside the ramparts, and don't make this evening a culinary one), etc.) You don't have enough time to do everything without stressing yourself out - notice on that map all the parkland you'll be driving by, which has hills in it, and is not a very fast drive unless you stay on the autoroutes - unless you take the autoroutes (the roads marked in red that begin with A-), you're going to be making very poor time, as there are few good alternatives.

astrid · October 24, 2015

Yes, we will be spending 4 days in San Sebastian. Akelarre and Martin B reservations are booked so far. Azurmendi and probably Mina near Bilbao.

The Hersch · October 24, 2015

I can't give much in the way of fine-dining recommendations, as I don't generally do much of that when I'm traveling, which is too expensive as it is. I did have lunch once at Bastide Saint Antoine in Grasse, and while it's a beautiful place, and the food was very good (it had 2 Michelin stars at the time; don't know about now), I'd have to say it wasn't worth it. I'd really rather eat in a modest bistrot (where you can often get wonderful food in France for not very much money, and be among locals rather than other high-spending tourists) and spend the extra time exploring.

All that aside, do consider my recommendation of Aix-en-Provence. It's a remarkable jewel of a city, much of the center of which is medieval, and yet it's not a museum, like Bruges, but a very lively center of all kinds of activity. I read somewhere that there are more than 60,000 students in Aix. My friend and I stayed at Hotel St. Christophe, which is nice, not terribly expensive (nor terribly fancy) and sits in a brilliant location just steps from La Rotonde, the circle with fountain at the lower end of the Cours Mirabeau, the city's main promenade. (St. Christophe has a pretty good restaurant, Brasserie Léopold. Not fine dining, but good, solid regional cuisine.) Up at the other end of the Cours, my friend and I ate at Aix's most famous eatery, the venerable Brasserie les Deux Garí§ons, which was not nearly as touristy as I had imagined, and where we had a very good dinner served by a really charming waiter. Paul Cézanne was there every evening for much of his life (which sadly ended quite a while before my visit). The cathedral at Aix is very interesting, and parts of it are of astonishing antiquity. Beware, though. If a soft-spoken nun asks you if you'd like to join her tour of the cloister, thank her politely and hurry off in the opposite direction. She has evil designs.

While I was in Aix, I was reading M.F.K. Fisher's Map of Another Town, her memoir of Aix. I loved the book (and recommend it highly), and loved reading it in Aix. You might consider it.

One note on the autoroutes that Don mentioned: They are excellent highways, and in that part of France along the mountainous coast there are many stretches that are a succession of tunnels and viaducts: remarkable feats of engineering, which are worth seeing in their own right, but often with pretty spectacular views from the viaducts (and obviously no views at all from the tunnels).

DonRocks · October 24, 2015

I'd really rather eat in a modest bistrot (where you can often get wonderful food in France for not very much money, and be among locals rather than other high-spending tourists) and spend the extra time exploring.

This is like going to China and not seeing the Taj Mahal!

astrid · October 25, 2015

Thanks for your advice. I'll ponder about Michel Bras...it would be a full day's driving out of the way, but Don had spoken so highly of it and the drive would be through a national park. But skipping it would give us more time to see the Roman ruins around Nimes and Arles. Or an extra day checking out the Pyrennes around Lourdes.

The trip is roughly divided into 3rds. Nice to Bilbao portion would focus on eating at modest restaurants and perhaps prepared foods from local markets and vendors. Basque-land would be a mix of Michelin starred and local tapas/seafood places. Then Paris leans heavy on Parisbymouth's favorites list (with l'Astrance's 70 Euro lunch being the only Michelin 3 star and Le Cinq's lunch being the only blowout meal). The overall food budget will still be high (probably well over 50% of the overall travel cost), but it seemed foolish to skip out on the high end of the Basque dining scene since it's not a trip we're likely to retake anytime soon.

DonRocks · October 25, 2015

Thanks for your advice. I'll ponder about Michel Bras...it would be a full day's driving out of the way, but Don had spoken so highly of it and the drive would be through a national park. But skipping it would give us more time to see the Roman ruins around Nimes and Arles. Or an extra day checking out the Pyrennes around Lourdes.

The trip is roughly divided into 3rds. Nice to Bilbao portion would focus on eating at modest restaurants and perhaps prepared foods from local markets and vendors. Basque-land would be a mix of Michelin starred and local tapas/seafood places. Then Paris leans heavy on Parisbymouth's favorites list (with l'Astrance's 70 Euro lunch being the only Michelin 3 star and Le Cinq's lunch being the only blowout meal). The overall food budget will still be high (probably well over 50% of the overall travel cost), but it seemed foolish to skip out on the high end of the Basque dining scene since it's not a trip we're likely to retake anytime soon.

I think you should drive straight to either Marseille (bouillabaisse, maybe stay at Le Petit Nice) or Grasse (Chibois, who loves mushrooms btw) for your first meal, depending on what time you arrive. Don't see Nice (but do note the lovely view you get while landing). Bras is its own destination, and you have to *really* want to go there - make sure he'll be there! It's a step up from everything I've talked about, but you'll miss Carcassonne (and you'll spend $1,500+ for dinner-for-two plus room plus breakfast - I say if you go there, you go all the way and get the grande luxe prix fixe and stay on the property, having breakfast in the morning. I just looked and it's pretty booked up (for a reason, I will add - also, they shut down on November 15th). The breakfast I got served at Marc Veyrat was one of the best meals of my life - 50 Euros per person (15 years ago) and worth it - they'll bring it to your room, most likely. Different people have different priorities, and it sounds like you're hell-bent on Culinary Nirvana, and if that's The One priority, see if you can get up to Bras - then prepare yourselves for a completely different (but just as fascinating) experience in Spain, which, at its best, is unforgettable, but a lot of places aren't as good as their Michelin stars would lead you to believe, so choose wisely. Example: I went to what was widely considered the best restaurant in Barcelona - the meal was "excellent but not outstanding," and the wine cellar was some sort of cruel joke (a wine cellar can, and should be, a million-dollar investment if you're running a two- or three-star property); but the hotel itself was *amazing* (had the spa *all day long* to myself at no cost)! Sometimes, when you go and do the Full Monty in the off-season, you get these kinds of perks - a lot of these country-inn places are actually hyper-luxe mom-n-pops, and they really appreciate it when you aren't afraid to spend money; then, there are the tourist traps who don't care what you do, and the crafty ones make it very difficult to tell which-is-which. I find the Michelin guide to be very unreliable, quite frankly (don't even get me going on the New York guide, which is a complete joke). Ask yourself this: If Michelin came to Washington, who, exactly, would be doing their inspections? Who should you trust? When I went to Spain, I picked up the phone and called Gerry Dawes, and I highly recommend you read his blog on Spanish culinary arts. If he says a Michelin three-star isn't all that, pay attention to what he says. I also highly recommend reading Andy Hayler's blog - he's the only living person who has been to every Michelin 3-Star restaurant, and is a super-nice guy as well (we'll be interviewing him here in the future).

astrid · November 3, 2015

Thanks for directing me to Andy Hayler. He highly rated a couple places that I had not considered in Basque country. I wouldn't say we're hell bent on star-hunting. More that we've never eaten at Michelin rated restaurants or fancy European restaurants, so we want to check out that world of possibilities. We don't have a bottomless budget of time or money, so if $1,500+ and anxiously hoping that the chef's in is what it takes to really experience Michel Bras at its best, I'm going to cancel.

Gerry Dawes needs someone to re-organize his website. Also, way too much inside baseball stuff and not actually helpful for someone in search of guidance on what to eat and drink. Sorry but I'm going back to Tripadvisor and cross-referencing Hayler and Michelin. <_<

We're actually avoiding 3-stars in Paris altogether. Parisbymouth said that Le Cinq is better than all of them, so that's going to be our splurge in Paris.

Joe H · November 4, 2015

I wish I had read this earlier.

1. Call the American Embassy in Paris and ask them to e-mail you the list of the hotels where their visitors stay. They will all be three stars (five star scale), all within the Federal per diem (i.e. approximately E 100-125 or so). You WANT to stay in the 7th or 8th Arr. It makes a difference when you walk out the door and you are in the middle of everything.

2. I have driven everywhere in Europe-I had to, it was my job and I did it on business for 30+ years with an average of 30+ days each year. The drive from south of Cannes north by Nice, by Monte Carlo and into Italy through San Remo is one of the most beautiful in the world. Aix and the countryside is interesting. Not as interesting as the French Riviera. ( I have too many opinions.)

3. I've eaten at 11 or 12 three Michelin starred restaurants. The best was in Germany (Schwarzwaldstube in the Black Forest which I prefer to Le Cinq. Regardless even if you were going to Baiersbronn you have to reserve a year in advance). The most interesting of any restaurant I have been to was a single star in a 2000 year old literal stone furnace on the Northern Italian coast (driving from San Remo towards Genoa) called La Fornace. I wrote about this on Chowhound ten or more years ago and, to this date, it is the most interesting and unique restaurant I have ever been in. Look closely at the photos: http://www.tripadvisor.it/Restaurant_Review-g1973857-d3682925-Reviews-La_Fornace-Vado_Ligure_Italian_Riviera_Liguria.html It may still have the Michelin star when we visited but, it is not about that. Rather, some of the stone for the Roman Coliseum came from there. Literally, this is a twenty century old stone structure which has been styled into a restaurant; some rooms having ceilings that you have to bend over to walk under. Most of the light is from candlelight. It is breathtakingly beautiful, extraordinary and still open although I am not sure of its menu today.

4. I realize that you have to go to Paris but I am also a huge fan of Bavaria (Munich to Garmische/Partenkirchen, Munich to Salzburg, Munich to Regensburg) and northern Italy including Venice, Cortina (you must go to the Dolomites), Verona, Montreaux and the Kaiserstuhl (German wine region which Americans never write about or visit) which is near Freiburg. Also love Barcelona and Tarragona down the coast. And, again, the French Riviera.

5. Drive everywhere and get lost. Serious. It's not that far, say, from Cannes to Aix. Get lost on the Mediterranean coast. Literally. As noted above it is a special place on Earth. (As is Cortina and the Dolomites...)

6. I realize you leave in a few days and it is too late to change many plans but you really should stay in the 7th or 8th Arr in Paris and call the Embassy for where to stay. (Probably will be a 10-30 room hotel with feather pillows, soft sheets, good mattress but small lobby and no room service.) For myself staying in the middle of a city/village was an absolute priority. I cannot emphasize location enough-there is much to be said for literally staying a couple of blocks from the Arch de Triumphe (which you should walk up). And don't discount walking into, say, the Opera in the 8th. If you are serious about Paris there is "character" in the Paris sewers and also Jim Morrison's grave. Serious-unique experiences. Neither is like it may sound. Again, location: walking out the door and seeing the Eiffel Tower a couple of blocks away is worth a lot.

And, how can you not go to Venice? In November when there are relatiely few tourists? I don't care if it has ten or more million tourists other months but there is nowhere else on earth like it. If/when you return seriously consider Venice/Cortina/Bolzano/Innsbruck/Munich.

The Euro is about 1.09 to the dollar. Since it was released in the late '90's it has fluctuated from .86 to about 1.60. You are going at a time when it is fairly strong to the dollar. I passionately love Switzerland (I represented a Swiss company outside of Montreaux for years.) Unfortunately the Swiss Franc to the dollar today is about par. For comparison in the early '80's it was 2.85 to the dollar. Switzerland is frightfully expensive.

If you are anywhere near Switzerland/Germany or Austria around the first of December look for a Christmas Market. http://www.webcamgalore.com/EN/webcam/Germany/Munich/2.html will show the Christmas Market in Munich's Marien Platz in late November.

And....you cannot imagine the feeling of standing in Venice's San Marco Square and watching them erect a Christmas tree with snow falling.

Of course walking out of a small starred restaurant on a chilly night near the base of the Eiffel Tower is a memory, too.

Or sitting on a creekside bench at the foot of an early medieval stone wall which encircles the village of Soave and having a glass (or two) of good amarone.

Or staying in Venice's Daniele in one of the third floor rooms which have a small balcony overlooking the canal where gondoliers stop and serenade their passengers...

...

astrid · November 4, 2015

Joe, thanks for your thoughts. Although Germany isn't on our radar, northern Italy certainly is so it's so nice to get feedback from experienced travelers. We're actually staying in a 1^st Arrond. Airbnb apartment. We've debated the value of staying 1^st or 2^nd v. Marais v. Left Bank v. further out. The convenience of the 1^st really won us over, since we would be able to walk to many of the attractions and restaurants. We use Airbnb a lot when we travel and almost always have very positive experiences "“ the access to kitchen/laundry is nice and all our hosts have been gracious and helpful.

The comparatively weak Euro is definitely a big motivation for going now. Or rather, the strong Euro had been a big deterrent for not making this trip earlier, since we had heard horror stories of $50 breakfasts and $500/night hotel stays. We are really delighted by how affordable the trip is turning out to be (though it will still involve spending a giant gob of money on fine dining).

Joe H · November 4, 2015

Joe, thanks for your thoughts. Although Germany isn't on our radar, northern Italy certainly is so it's so nice to get feedback from experienced travelers. We're actually staying in a 1^st Arrond. Airbnb apartment. We've debated the value of staying 1^st or 2^nd v. Marais v. Left Bank v. further out. The convenience of the 1^st really won us over, since we would be able to walk to many of the attractions and restaurants. We use Airbnb a lot when we travel and almost always have very positive experiences "“ the access to kitchen/laundry is nice and all our hosts have been gracious and helpful.

The comparatively weak Euro is definitely a big motivation for going now. Or rather, the strong Euro had been a big deterrent for not making this trip earlier, since we had heard horror stories of $50 breakfasts and $500/night hotel stays. We are really delighted by how affordable the trip is turning out to be (though it will still involve spending a giant gob of money on fine dining).

FWIW Le Cinq is now a two star and its prix fixe is E 310 per person. (with wine and supplimental tip you will be around $800-900). If you are going into northern Italy take a serious look at either Le Calandre outside of Padua and/or Dal Pescatore near Mantova which are both three stars. They will be totally different experiences, actually from each other as they will from Le Cinq. John Mariani in Esquire in '99 called Dal Pescatore "The Greatest Restaurant in the World." It is worth the 90 minute drive from either Verona (to the north) or Bologna (from the South). Both Italian three stars are around E 200.

Regardless, have a great trip.

Rovers2000 · November 4, 2015

If you end up looking at Northern Italy, in particular Verona - I definitely have some recommendations:

- We were in and around Verona for 3 days and stayed at Villa Archi (http://www.villaarchi.it/en/), spend the extra and stay in the panoramic suite

- In addition to Quintarelli we visited Steffano Accordini (up in the mountains, while a hair raising ride to the top, the view was unbelievable).

- We loved walking around Verona proper (20 or so min from the B&B, the amphitheater is really incredible and I can only imagine what it's like seeing an opera there.

- In terms of restaurants we enjoyed Osteria Giuletta, Trattoria Al Pompiere and Ristorante Oste Scuro

I'll also reiterate that this board helped TREMENDOUSLY and that Joe H in particular really gave us some advice that proved to be right on (I still have a jar of calibrian peppers for him from the autogrills )

Joe H · November 4, 2015

If you end up looking at Northern Italy, in particular Verona - I definitely have some recommendations:

- We were in and around Verona for 3 days and stayed at Villa Archi (http://www.villaarchi.it/en/), spend the extra and stay in the panoramic suite

- In addition to Quintarelli we visited Steffano Accordini (up in the mountains, while a hair raising ride to the top, the view was unbelievable).

- We loved walking around Verona proper (20 or so min from the B&B, the amphitheater is really incredible and I can only imagine what it's like seeing an opera there.

- In terms of restaurants we enjoyed Osteria Giuletta, Trattoria Al Pompiere and Ristorante Oste Scuro

I'll also reiterate that this board helped TREMENDOUSLY and that Joe H in particular really gave us some advice that proved to be right on (I still have a jar of calibrian peppers for him from the autogrills )

Ah...Quintarelli!

And Calabrian hot peppers!!!!

And panini at the AutoGrill.

Thank you, sir.

astrid · November 4, 2015

We won't make it to Italy for this trip. But that's certainly good to know for a future trip.

We'll be getting Le Cinq's lunch at 145 Euros. Still a tidy sum, but less breathtakingly so. I know a few people who have been in the past and didn't think highly of it. However, Parisbymouth claimed that under its current chef, it's better than any of the Paris 3-stars. TheFork and Tripadvisor reviews seem to back this up. So while we're prepared to be let down, hopefully we've tipped the balance in our favor.

l'Astrance is the Paris 3-star bargain, at 70 Euros for lunch. But other places sounded more interesting, so we're going to pass on it this time.

Pool Boy · November 4, 2015

If you end up looking at Northern Italy, in particular Verona - I definitely have some recommendations:

- We were in and around Verona for 3 days and stayed at Villa Archi (http://www.villaarchi.it/en/), spend the extra and stay in the panoramic suite

- In addition to Quintarelli we visited Steffano Accordini (up in the mountains, while a hair raising ride to the top, the view was unbelievable).

- We loved walking around Verona proper (20 or so min from the B&B, the amphitheater is really incredible and I can only imagine what it's like seeing an opera there.

- In terms of restaurants we enjoyed Osteria Giuletta, Trattoria Al Pompiere and Ristorante Oste Scuro

I'll also reiterate that this board helped TREMENDOUSLY and that Joe H in particular really gave us some advice that proved to be right on (I still have a jar of calibrian peppers for him from the autogrills )

Please tell me how you set up the visit to Quintarelli. Just a phone call or do you need an 'in'? Verona and surrounding area is one of my truly happy places.

Joe H · November 5, 2015

We won't make it to Italy for this trip. But that's certainly good to know for a future trip.

We'll be getting Le Cinq's lunch at 145 Euros. Still a tidy sum, but less breathtakingly so. I know a few people who have been in the past and didn't think highly of it. However, Parisbymouth claimed that under its current chef, it's better than any of the Paris 3-stars. TheFork and Tripadvisor reviews seem to back this up. So while we're prepared to be let down, hopefully we've tipped the balance in our favor.

l'Astrance is the Paris 3-star bargain, at 70 Euros for lunch. But other places sounded more interesting, so we're going to pass on it this time.

Le Cinq is sumptuous luxury and that is part of the price and the experience. It's been several years but l'Astrance was a virtually impossible reservation but worth the effort: three stars today. Interestingly Alain Ducasse lost a star and is now two.

A great part of the enjoyment of a trip is the research and anticipation of what you'll experience. That becomes even more interesting when you research restaurants where none of the reviews are in English and you have to google translate everything you read. I did this last night with La Fornace (which I mentioned above). Not a single English speaking person has been there recently. For myself this became a real attraction of places that I researched. I did not want to feel like I was in D. C. or NY-I wanted to feel like I was in another country. I say this because some of your best experiences on your upcoming trip will be places that you stumble on and have a "feeling" about. When you communicate through gestures and facial expressions it can help put the dining experience over the top.

Rovers2000 · November 5, 2015

Please tell me how you set up the visit to Quintarelli. Just a phone call or do you need an 'in'? Verona and surrounding area is one of my truly happy places.

The lovely proprietor of the B&B we stayed at knew the family and called to set everything up for us. When we had arrived she asked what we wanted to see and I essentially said that I wanted to see either Dal Forno or Quintarelli. Unfortunately at the time Dal Forno's harvest was running late due to the warm weather extending out - but despite the fact that they were undergoing some significant renovations to their home / winery (there was a giant crane in the road that I almost had to go off road to get around) they generously offered to let us come by.

They were the kindest family. Francesco and his father (Quintarelli's son in law I believe) conducted the tasting and made sure the case we purchased was essentially bomb proofed for the journey back.

Joe H · November 6, 2015

The lovely proprietor of the B&B we stayed at knew the family and called to set everything up for us. When we had arrived she asked what we wanted to see and I essentially said that I wanted to see either Dal Forno or Quintarelli. Unfortunately at the time Dal Forno's harvest was running late due to the warm weather extending out - but despite the fact that they were undergoing some significant renovations to their home / winery (there was a giant crane in the road that I almost had to go off road to get around) they generously offered to let us come by.

They were the kindest family. Francesco and his father (Quintarelli's son in law I believe) conducted the tasting and made sure the case we purchased was essentially bomb proofed for the journey back.

Did you go to Dal Forno? We first met Romano and his wife 15 or so years ago and were extremely fortunate because their then (young) son, Michele wanted to practice his English when we visited in December. They were wonderful and spent perhaps two or three hours with us. We repeated this almost every year for a decade. I usually brought several bottles of American (i.e. K Vintners Royal City,, Caymus Special Selection, and green chili New Mexico pistachios, even Monks of Gethsemani fruitcake. We've built up a friendship and are honored to know them. Today, MIchele is married and around 35 and has a large role in the family business. It is an absolute honor and pleasure for us to continue to visit them.

Rovers2000 · November 7, 2015

Did you go to Dal Forno? We first met Romano and his wife 15 or so years ago and were extremely fortunate because their then (young) son, Michele wanted to practice his English when we visited in December. They were wonderful and spent perhaps two or three hours with us. We repeated this almost every year for a decade. I usually brought several bottles of American (i.e. K Vintners Royal City,, Caymus Special Selection, and green chili New Mexico pistachios, even Monks of Gethsemani fruitcake. We've built up a friendship and are honored to know them. Today, MIchele is married and around 35 and has a large role in the family business. It is an absolute honor and pleasure for us to continue to visit them.

We REALLY wanted to, but I didn't want to hassle them as when we called they said due to challenges they were having with the harvest - they weren't allowing anyone to visit until they were completely done (we were there in mid-October and due to the warm fall they had waited longer than many others to start).

Quintarelli was much in the same way as the Dal Forno visits you mentioned - just a genuinely lovely family. Chatting in their cellar while greedily looking at rows and rows of dust covered bottles of amarone that dated back to the 60's and 70's is one of my favorite memories from our Italy trip. The winery is in good hands I think with Francesco taking over for his grandfather. I will be curious to see (and we will return) how the renovations turn out. They used the fact that there was some damage due to storms to the main building to expand their cellar capacity slightly.

astrid · November 15, 2015

I'm afraid that Hayler's reviews do not match up well with my taste. He thought very highly of Azurmendi, whereas I found it interesting, maybe even fun, definitely perfectly executed, but only had two or three dishes that made me really wish I had more of. Still, the overall experience is well worth the price of admission and I would recommend eating there if you are staying in Bilbao or in Donostia with a car.

Etxebarri, with a lower rating from Hayler's, lived up to my high personal expectations for it. The ingredients are all top notch and the grilling brings out their delicious essence. All the savories in our 4 hour dinner passed my "do I want to eat a big bowl of this" test. I was almost tempted to ask if they had lunch availability for the day we reserved for Akelarre dinner, but that would be too crazy. This is a meal that is going to get me misty eyed for years to come, so thanks so much for turning us onto it.

astrid · November 15, 2015

We ended up relying on TripAdvisor and the fork to guide us through Provence (I am using the term broadly). My dine list from favorite to least favorite, though really all the meals were pretty good.

Brasserie Bodegon in Lourdes - huge portions, generous use of good ingredients, everything we got (which was a waiter and chef impressing amount) was delicious. They have a big menu and we wish we could have tried more of it. The plush luxe decor was nice(if not what vacationing Americans are likely seeking in a provincial French restaurant) and service were also very good.

La Roulotte in Carcassonne - the chef likes to play with some north African flavors and he does very well by them. Probably our favorite foie gras (we have been eating foie gras everyday since landing in Paris) of the trip. The atmosphere is perfect, it's a tiny little place with momentos of the town and the chef's collection of cookbooks and gourmet magazines, a couple local families chatting up the chef and his wife, who ran the front of the house.

Cafe Llorca near Cannes - its right off of the town square and Google directions were a bit hazy. Once we are there, everything was great. The food here is deeply flavorful, seemed like time tested recipes even though it bills itself as a modern restaurant. The service was pleasant and efficient. They honored our thefork.com discount without a mention, making the meal quite inexpensive

Le QG in Arles - nice enough food and good service, though definitely not at the level of the restaurants above. All the food was a little too sweet and tasted competently prepared rather than memorably good. The atmosphere is kitschy but fun. Service was good.

Tea Room at Villa Epirussi de Rothschild - decent (might be considered memorably good at a US tourist attraction) food at a not exorbitant price, good service and pretty room. The views, like all the views at this garden, are breathtaking. The gardens here are so heartbreakingly beautiful and romantic.

El primo/ La Chimere in Aix - they have the same owner and we are at both as part of our progressive dinner. The portions are generous and service good enough, the food is a bit hit and miss, though even the misses were tasty enough (chewy duck, charcouterie plate dominated by giant slices ham, greasy clams). It was Monday night and there weren't a lot of other choices. You can probably do much better on a different night or with more planning.

astrid · November 15, 2015

Other trip notes.

We lucked into some recordbreakingly great weather thus far in our trip, sunny and in the high teens celcius on most days. The Mediterranean Sea in Cote d'Azur is warm enough to swim in. Sometimes fools (traveling in November, generally considered the worst weather month for the region) just get very very lucky.

Almost no snow in Haut Pyrennes except for the permanent snow caps on the very tallest peaks. The ski area around Pic du Midi are impressive for the scale of ski lift coverage and the outstanding views from both sides. Cirque de Gavarnie was pretty enough, but not nearly as spectacular as the views from the high mountain passes.

Provence feels like an incredible bargain coming from DC. The Aix market prices are maybe 75% off of prices at comparable DC farmer's markets. These guys and gals know how to make an alluring pile of vegetables or tray of cyclamens.

The Airbnb apartments that we have stayed at are fabulous. Beautifully renovated places near the center. Nice accommodating hosts. Generous bathrooms and kitchen spaces. It's really a great option for longer stays (for shorter stays, the hassle of research and communicating with hosts, plus per stay cleaning fees, may tip the balance towards hotels).

If you want to sleep with top sheets, pack them in your luggage.

France feels like a different world, but Basque lands feels strangely familiar to me, like a more beautiful version of California combined with Chinese provincial cities.

Aix's town center is indeed very beautiful, but let me also put in a good word for Arles as a base. The town itself is almost as quaint and lovely as Aix, only much quieter and easier to get around. There's enough Roman ruins, castles, churches, and nature within easy driving distance to easily occupy a week. Aix is better for access to Grasse and Cote d'Azur, however.

Guggenheim Bilbao's restaurant Nerua and bistro both gets fully booked up even in November,luckily the bar is quite good and not too busy.

If you don't have the time, skip the Marie Antoinette portion of the Versailles tour, it's a really really long walk and what you see may not be worth the amount of effort exerted.

Laduree macarons (purchased in Versailles as an alternative to lunch) are well made, but too sweet for my taste. Looking forward to eating all the pastries and chocolates, once we're in Paris again.

The drive from Cannes to Frejus is like Arizona with a beach front and infested by architects looking for challenges.

When the concierge at Hotel Artetxe (fantastic little hotel with a great view of the city) tell you that you can walk to the Guggenheim, he meant the fully paved path with properly maintained concrete stairs. Not the Google recommended route that starts in a gravel road and end in a 45 degree gravel footpath with slippery wet grass and fallen leaves.

We have lost the ability to drive by map (I had lugged the full Michelin France map book in our luggage, that was foolish). Luckily, free WiFi at many locations and Google map app's offline capabilities have saved many drives from utter disaster.

Le Clos Y in Paris failed to live up to my expectations - food was impeccably prepared and used good ingredients, but somewhat lacking in deliciousness for me. Ugh!

The awful situation in Paris is certainly causing some possible concerns for the final leg of our trip. Though our host in Donostia informs me that they made a cross border round trip yesterday with only minor delays. I imagine that Paris will be very different.

astrid · November 15, 2015

Martin Berasategui, which I just found out is Tripadvisor's #1 restaurant globally, delivered very well indeed.

The dining room is nicely appointed, but in a bland-ish way that lacks the sleek modernism of Azurmendi or the traditional coziness of Etxebarri. It's comfortable in the way of a nice resort or country club dining room. There is no music and the ample spacing mutes the conversations so that we cannot make out any of the neighboring table's conversations. The floor to ceiling windows look out out to a nice verdant background of a green hill with several attractive houses in the distance. But there is nothing here to distract me from the food that I came here for.

The dining room staff may be the best trained and possibly the nicest one that I've ever encountered - un-intrusive, quick on their feet, quick to anticipate and fulfill your needs even before you got around to ask. They all speak with kindness and good humor, explaining components of each dish and answering our questions clearly and promptly. It's one of the rare occasions where I feel like the service truly adds something special to the overall experience. The other nice thing for us is that service was pretty fast - unlike the epic 4 hour meals at Azurmendi and Etxebarri, the staff moved us efficiently between courses and we had the full tasting menu in about two hours.

Two very delicious hours. The dishes here are probably less experimental than Azurmendi, though there are gels, foams, hot and cold foods together, and foods appearing in surprising forms. They were also fun, perfect, tasty, and went great together. All dishes except perhaps the truffle egg dish meets my "I want to eat a big bowl of this" test for deliciousness - though the chef makes a point of saying that he conceives of all his dishes as 3 or 4 bites each.

In summary - I would highly recommend Martin Berasategui to anyone visiting Donostia. (Though you should also figure out how to visit Etxebarri, even if the logistics of going there are a bit more challenging).

Joe H · November 16, 2015

Other trip notes.

We lucked into some recordbreakingly great weather thus far in our trip, sunny and in the high teens celcius on most days. The Mediterranean Sea in Cote d'Azur is warm enough to swim in. Sometimes fools (traveling in November, generally considered the worst weather month for the region) just get very very lucky.

Almost no snow in Haut Pyrennes except for the permanent snow caps on the very tallest peaks. The ski area around Pic du Midi are impressive for the scale of ski lift coverage and the outstanding views from both sides. Cirque de Gavarnie was pretty enough, but not nearly as spectacular as the views from the high mountain passes.

Provence feels like an incredible bargain coming from DC. The Aix market prices are maybe 75% off of prices at comparable DC farmer's markets. These guys and gals know how to make an alluring pile of vegetables or tray of cyclamens.

The Airbnb apartments that we have stayed at are fabulous. Beautifully renovated places near the center. Nice accommodating hosts. Generous bathrooms and kitchen spaces. It's really a great option for longer stays (for shorter stays, the hassle of research and communicating with hosts, plus per stay cleaning fees, may tip the balance towards hotels).

If you want to sleep with top sheets, pack them in your luggage.

France feels like a different world, but Basque lands feels strangely familiar to me, like a more beautiful version of California combined with Chinese provincial cities.

Aix's town center is indeed very beautiful, but let me also put in a good word for Arles as a base. The town itself is almost as quaint and lovely as Aix, only much quieter and easier to get around. There's enough Roman ruins, castles, churches, and nature within easy driving distance to easily occupy a week. Aix is better for access to Grasse and Cote d'Azur, however.

Guggenheim Bilbao's restaurant Nerua and bistro both gets fully booked up even in November,luckily the bar is quite good and not too busy.

If you don't have the time, skip the Marie Antoinette portion of the Versailles tour, it's a really really long walk and what you see may not be worth the amount of effort exerted.

Laduree macarons (purchased in Versailles as an alternative to lunch) are well made, but too sweet for my taste. Looking forward to eating all the pastries and chocolates, once we're in Paris again.

The drive from Cannes to Frejus is like Arizona with a beach front and infested by architects looking for challenges.

When the concierge at Hotel Artetxe (fantastic little hotel with a great view of the city) tell you that you can walk to the Guggenheim, he meant the fully paved path with properly maintained concrete stairs. Not the Google recommended route that starts in a gravel road and end in a 45 degree gravel footpath with slippery wet grass and fallen leaves.

We have lost the ability to drive by map (I had lugged the full Michelin France map book in our luggage, that was foolish). Luckily, free WiFi at many locations and Google map app's offline capabilities have saved many drives from utter disaster.

Le Clos Y in Paris failed to live up to my expectations - food was impeccably prepared and used good ingredients, but somewhat lacking in deliciousness for me. Ugh!

The awful situation in Paris is certainly causing some possible concerns for the final leg of our trip. Though our host in Donostia informs me that they made a cross border round trip yesterday with only minor delays. I imagine that Paris will be very different.

There is a great deal of fear right now in Paris-it is not going to be the same experience that it might have been before last Friday. For myself, if possible, I would cancel the entire Parisian portion of the trip and instead go to Verona, Venice and Cortina. I believe you will eat certainly as well (three star Le Calandre outside of Padua, three star Dal Pescatore outside of Mantova, what I wrote above about Venice. The Dolomites are spectacularly beautiful, Verona is romantic and Venice is unmatched anywhere else on earth. Especially in November without many tourists. Stay at Giabbio D'ior in Verona You'll literally be in the middle of the ancient city and can walk everywhere. Autostrada and train are nearby, Venice is an hour train ride, Padua an45 minute drive for dinner and Cortina one hour northeast up into the high moutnains where you should get lost exploring. There is also a superb Michelin starred restaurant there that is unearthly beautiful.

Go to Paris when you will feel comfortable-not now. Fly out of Verona or Venice our if you want a nonstop back the closest airports will be Milan's Malpensa and Munich's.

Also consider Strausberg and the German Kaiserstuhl along with the German Black forest. THE SINGLE BEST RESTAURANT ON YOUR ENTIRE TRIP WILL BE IN BAIERSBROON, Germany: Schwarzwaldstube. It is the first three

german three star and the most difficult reservation in the 85 million Germany to get. I think it is better than anywhere in Paris. Certainly as good as anywhere. Call them and ask. They are also in one of the most beautiful places on earth. The Kaisterstuhl is the German wine country and it is idyllic-not known by Americans but that is part of its charm.

Honestly, I much prefer all of this, the German/Strausburg stops and the KaisterstuhlBlack Forest excusion along with an alternative to Northern Italy than anywhere in France.

Good luck,.

I've had 15 or more trips to Paris since the late '90's but would not go right now. I wouldn't hesitate to return to the others.

astrid · November 16, 2015

Thanks for your kind recommendations but changing our itineraries is not an option, we have many nonrefundable tickets and Airbnb booking tied to the Paris leg. Not to mention a number of Paris restaurant reservations that I anxiously nursed through weeks and months ago. Yes, there will be longer security lines and more anxiety, but Paris will still be Paris, and I want to see her as is.

I also think it's important not to let unfounded fear dominate my actions. If the Americans had known that after 9/11, perhaps there would not be ISIS to terrorize Syrians and Lebanese and Parisiens today, considering that ISIS grew out of the utter disaster of US failure in Iraq, where there was no WMD and no support of Al Qaeda.

I hope the French will do the same, and recognize their route to safety is not through fear and oppression of the "other", but in better treatment and cooperation with its citizens of North African extraction.

Also, what happened in Paris can easily happen anywhere. I am honestly be more concerned about my daily METRO commute (I am very much so, I am rather shocked that there hasn't been a DC based incident in the last 15 years, which makes me wonder why), than my safety in Paris.

Joe H · November 16, 2015

Thanks for your kind recommendations but changing our itineraries is not an option, we have many nonrefundable tickets and Airbnb booking tied to the Paris leg. Not to mention a number of Paris restaurant reservations that I anxiously nursed through weeks and months ago. Yes, there will be longer security lines and more anxiety, but Paris will still be Paris, and I want to see her as is.

I also think it's important not to let unfounded fear dominate my actions. If the Americans had known that after 9/11, perhaps there would not be ISIS to terrorize Syrians and Lebanese and Parisiens today, considering that ISIS grew out of the utter disaster of US failure in Iraq, where there was no WMD and no support of Al Qaeda.

I hope the French will do the same, and recognize their route to safety is not through fear and oppression of the "other", but in better treatment and cooperation with its citizens of North African extraction.

Also, what happened in Paris can easily happen anywhere. I am honestly be more concerned about my daily METRO commute (I am very much so, I am rather shocked that there hasn't been a DC based incident in the last 15 years, which makes me wonder why), than my safety in Paris.

You are going to do what you need to do and what you believe. I wish you the absolute best.

DonRocks · November 16, 2015

Also, what happened in Paris can easily happen anywhere. I am honestly be more concerned about my daily METRO commute (I am very much so, I am rather shocked that there hasn't been a DC based incident in the last 15 years, which makes me wonder why), than my safety in Paris.

As soon as I read the first sentence, I knew "Schwarzwaldstube" would be mentioned, and quite honestly, I'm surprised In N Out wasn't.

astrid · November 18, 2015

After having enjoyed two of the finest meals of our lives at Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui, comes the thudding 3 star major fail.

We had the worst fine dining experience of this year at Akelarre. The nibbles and foie gras courses were okay but utterly unremarkable. The rest of the savories tasted powerfully and one dimensionally of salt. The sweets tasted one dimensionally of other flavors, meh or worse.

The food seems correctly executed to the right doneness and there were even a few texture highlights such as the crisp suckling pig skins. Rather, I lay the blame on how the dishes were conceived.

We knew by the second course that it was probably going to be a bad meal, but hoped for things to improve. Then it was a matter of sheer bloody-minded determination and sunk cost fallacy, along with the fact there were far fewer courses than any of the other 3 stars or Etxebarri, that led us to finish the meal. Yup, in addition to being bad, it was also a complete ripoff, as I simply can't fathom where our money went, when that was very abundantly clear elsewhere - at Azurmendi, I couldn't fathom how the chef could afford to give us so much for our money.

The service, while nice and not inattentive, was also the sloppiest that I have seen in a long while. Silverware was practically tossed on the table with no thought as to placement. The half bottle of water that we paid for was cleared from the table at the start of the dessert course, and was not replaced. We ate the desserts and sweets with nearly empty glasses.

Well, it was a memorable meal alright!

DonRocks · November 18, 2015

After having enjoyed two of the finest meals of our lives at Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui, comes the thudding 3 star major fail.

We had the worst fine dining experience of this year at Akelarre. The nibbles and foie gras courses were okay but utterly unremarkable. The rest of the savories tasted powerfully and one dimensionally of salt. The sweets tasted one dimensionally of other flavors, meh or worse.

The food seems correctly executed to the right doneness and there were even a few texture highlights such as the crisp suckling pig skins. Rather, I lay the blame on how the dishes were conceived.

We knew by the second course that it was probably going to be a bad meal, but hoped for things to improve. Then it was a matter of sheer bloody-minded determination and sunk cost fallacy, along with the fact there were far fewer courses than any of the other 3 stars or Etxebarri, that lead us to finish the meal. Yup, in addition to being bad, it was also a complete ripoff, as I simply can't fathom where our money went, when that was very abundantly clear elsewhere - at Azurmendi, I couldn't fathom how we got so much for our money.

The service, while nice and not inattentive, was also the sloppiest that I have seen in a long while. Silverware was practically tossed on the table with no thought as to placement. The half bottle of water that we paid for was cleared from the table at the start of the dessert course, and was not replaced. We ate the desserts and sweets with nearly empty glasses.

Well, it was a memorable meal alright!

Honestly, hits and misses like this are the way you become a bonafide expert (you already know this, I'm sure).

astrid · November 18, 2015

Honestly, hits and misses like this are the way you become a bonafide expert (you already know this, I'm sure).

Learning just how far off the mark Michelin (and not just Michelin, Hayler and Tripadvisor's aggregate score both sounded no alarm) could be was the major inducement for finishing the meal. I stayed 2 extra days in San Sebastian for this and skipped a revisit to Etxebarri on the same day so we could fully appreciate the Akelarre meal. We paid a heavy price for this lesson.

DonRocks · November 18, 2015

Learning just how far off the mark Michelin (and not just Michelin, Hayler and Tripadvisor's aggregate score both sounded no alarm) could be was the major inducement for finishing the meal. I stayed 2 extra days in San Sebastian for this and skipped a revisit to Etxebarri on the same day so we could fully appreciate the Akelarre meal. We paid a heavy price for this lesson.

The knowledge is more important than the hedonism. Hayler knows what he's doing - you really might have caught them on an awful night; then again, there can be no off nights at this rating and price point. None.

astrid · November 18, 2015

Just because Hayler has eaten at all the Michelin 3 stars doesn't mean his assessment will be accurate to his readers' experience. I have now eaten at several restaurants that he reviewed and my experience doesn't match any of his reviews much at all. A couple dishes that he highlighted as being the best at a particular restaurant, I found to be far from the highlight of the meal.

His review of Paris 3 stars are also miles away from Meg Zimbeck's roundup last year. When he has eaten at so many fine dining places, he may be looking for very different things from someone who can only afford to indulge at this level on a very infrequent basis. In any case, I have enough disagreements with any specific critic to know better than follow blindly.

I have enough fine dining experience to be confident of calling it as I see it, and I saw a massive fail last night. It was all edible, a few dishes such as the foie, squid risotto, and steak tartare could be considered competently prepared but unexceptional, the rest was bad. And as the joke goes, not enough on the plate to justify anywhere near the price. And accompanied by demonstrably sloppy service.

DonRocks · November 18, 2015

Just because Hayler has eaten at all the Michelin 3 stars doesn't mean his assessment will be accurate to his readers' experience. I have now eaten at several restaurants that he reviewed and my experience doesn't match any of his reviews much at all. A couple dishes that he highlighted as being the best at a particular restaurant, I found to be far from the highlight of the meal.

His review of Paris 3 stars are also miles away from Meg Zimbeck's roundup last year. When he has eaten at so many fine dining places, he may be looking for very different things from someone who can only afford to indulge at this level on a very infrequent basis. In any case, I have enough disagreements with any specific critic to know better than follow blindly.

I have enough fine dining experience to be confident of calling it as I see it, and I saw a massive fail last night. It was all edible, a few dishes such as the foie, squid risotto, and steak tartare could be considered competently prepared but unexceptional, the rest was bad. And as the joke goes, not enough on the plate to justify anywhere near the price. And accompanied by demonstrably sloppy service.

Well, I would agree that I am probably the most reliable critic in the world (which I have no doubt that you're implying (*)); the problem being that I haven't been to as many top-top end restaurants as a Hayler or a Plotniki because I just don't have that kind of cash - it takes many millions of dollars to do.

My line of preference when it comes to putting someone in their place is: "I've slept on mattresses most every night of my life, but I don't know the first thing about mattresses." (I actually made that line up - there's just so much truth to it. People go through life - and meals - and don't even give a thought to what they're shoveling in their maws.) I could tell you horror stories about people - ungrateful people who tout themselves as "food experts" - whom I've treated to dinner, and who just sat at the table, and shoveled, and shoveled, finishing a course in a matter of just a couple of minutes, and then waiting impatiently for the next one to arrive. One story in particular cost me nearly $700 - needless to say, I don't take many people out to dinner anymore. Ironically, a disproportionate number of people I've treated to dinner have been the ones who have stabbed me in the back by spreading slanderous rumors about me (you've quite possibly heard about such things) - one day I will write a book, chock full of stories that would be funny if they weren't so sad, revealing the dark side of "humanity," if that's what you can classify these people as being. These people don't understand the first thing about food; they merely like to eat. God, if you only knew how much I let myself be abused just because I was trying to be appreciative and show some kindness - I'm going to stop now before I rattle off 100 pages about these porcine cretins.

(*) :lol:

Bart · November 18, 2015

Since I can't "Like" the entire thread, I'll just say THANKS to everyone who posted here!

There's a ridiculous amount of fantastic information here, 99% of which I knew nothing. From restaurant names, to reviewer names, to place names and locations, it was all a huge unknown to me (and truthfully, since I just skimmed the posts, it still is) but if I ever plan a trip over there I'm going to rely heavily on this thread and this site!

Thanks all!

dracisk · November 18, 2015

I second the thanks. I've been following along with fascination. I've been to Paris several times and to Barcelona once, but I've never done a fine dining tour like this. Amazing. Also, when I heard about the Paris attacks I immediately thought of astrid even though we've never interacted on the site much less met each other in real life!

astrid · November 18, 2015

I am glad to hear that this thread is helpful for others, just as it's been really helpful for me.

Tonight's dinner was at restaurant David Toutain and it was incredible. I think what was achieved here is even more impressive than Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui. For those, one is focused on doing one thing very very well and the other utilizes some kitchen wizardry to impress, and both chefs had several decades to perfect their craft.

David Toutain, on the other hand, does not have decades of greatest hits to fall back on (though I am sure training under Alain Passard helped a lot) or much apparent kitchen wizardry. It's all about elevating fresh seasonal ingredients to another level. There are plenty of young chefs in the States who are doing this, but I haven't yet encountered a kitchen that put out more delicious food than what I just ate tonight.

Everything was wonderful but what I really can't get over how good the butter is, like salty creamy melty candy, I could just eat pats of the stuff by itself. But then I think of the wonderful, sweet scallop, probably the best scallop I have ever eaten. Or the truffled potato "risotto". Or that perfectly cooked and sauced cod...

The service is great too, charming and handsome and good at their jobs and have a sense of humor.

DonRocks · November 19, 2015

I am glad to hear that this thread is helpful for others, just as it's been really helpful for me.

Tonight's dinner was at restaurant David Toutain and it was incredible. I think what was achieved here is even more impressive than Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui. For those, one is focused on doing one thing very very well and the other utilizes some kitchen wizardry to impress, and both chefs had several decades to perfect their craft.

David Toutain, on the other hand, does not have decades of greatest hits to fall back on (though I am sure training under Alain Passard helped a lot) or much apparent kitchen wizardry. It's all about elevating fresh seasonal ingredients to another level. There are plenty of young chefs in the States who are doing this, but I haven't yet encountered a kitchen that put out more delicious food than what I just ate tonight.

Everything was wonderful but what I really can't get over how good the butter is, like salty creamy melty candy, I could just eat pats of the stuff by itself. But then I think of the wonderful, sweet scallop, probably the best scallop I have ever eaten. Or the truffled potato "risotto". Or that perfectly cooked and sauced cod...

The service is great too, charming and handsome and good at their jobs and have a sense of humor.

I don't know how many Michelin stars David Toutain has (I absolutely do not trust Michelin, especially outside of France), but I know from experience that some of the best meals I've ever had have been at one- and two-star restaurants hell-bent on getting three. No different there than here.

Joe H · November 19, 2015

I don't know about how many Michelin stars David Toutain has (I absolutely do not trust Michelin, especially outside of France), but I know from experience that some of the best meals I've ever had have been at one- and two-star restaurants hell-bent on getting three. No different there than here.

I could not disagree with you more about not trusting Michelin outside of France. I found, over the years, that I tended to agree with their starred restaurants in Italy and Germany as often as I did with their opinions about starred restaurants in France.

Gault Millau, L'Espresso and others were valuable as well. Often I would take a consensus of those opinions as well as research someone whose opinions had tended to reflect mine at other restaurants. Simple example: I agree with Tom Sietsema far more than I disagree with his evaluations. I agree with Todd Kliman far less. A Sietsema rave will have more importance to me than Kliman. If Dave MacIntyre raves about a particularly jammy, fruity full bodied red I am probably going to buy a bottle before the week is out. I would not say this about many other wine writers-but I think I understand Dave's taste and feel that some of his preferences mirror mine.

There is another source, however: chefs. If, say, Roberto Donna would tell me about a restaurant he likes I will find a way to go. This includes a Turkish/Lebanese/Greek restaurant in Frederick that he introduced me to which was wonderful. A fair question for an accomplished chef overseas is where they would go for an anniversary meal? Of, if there was one chef within 100 km who would they want to have eat at their table? The next question is what would they serve him or her and, of course, I would immediately order it for that evening.

astrid · November 19, 2015

It's a Paris 1 star and Parisbymouth's #1 recommendation. I'm not sure he is gunning for additional stars, however. The decor and the service are both quite informal, in the nicest sense.

It provides a wonderful contrast to the dreadful Akelarre meal. In fact they both had a citrus and chocolate dessert as part of the dessert course. The Akelarre dessert was dreadful, too sweet and impossible to eat and flavored only by the bitterness of the orange rind. the DT version was full of flavors that played happily off each other and light like a dream.

astrid · November 19, 2015

I have only had an evening so far, but I don't think Paris has changed too much. Our Airbnb host mentioned that he had a few cancellations, unfortunately. But otherwise, still good crowds at Les Halles shopping center. The Christmas market along Champs-Elysees is a dazzling sight. Major change noticed was that several major buildings are lit in the color of the French flag and there were a few cops sighted with machine guns.

Our multi hour walk in the heart of Paris felt very safe, well into the night, and no sense of siege mentality here.

And you all are right, Paris is magic. We will definitely want to come back for a more extensive visit.

astrid · November 19, 2015

I misremembered or Parisbymouth did some ranking shifting last night. David Toutain is #2. Today we had lunch at their current #1, Septime. It was very very very good. The dishes weren't quite as creative as Toutain's, so I still prefer last night's meal. But well worth the price, the trek to the 11th (where things are more tense, many more teams of soldiers and police with automatics and even walked passed a nearby laundry where police and firemen were doing...something), and the week of OCD checking of thefork.com for available reservations.

Then off to the 6th for Jardin Luxembourg, or not because it closes at 4:30 pm, which means the entrances were blocked by 4. I made up for this by hitting the local chocolatiers and Pierre Herme.

Then dinner at Verjus, which was very good too, but it's all starting to blur a bit. As part of their mandatory tasting menu, we had more scallops, more salsify, more caramelized apples. I am not complaining, since each chef put an interesting spin on their version and each was delicious.

Then because we felt we had room for a little more food, we headed towards Frenchie wine bar. It was really packed and honestly the menu didn't sound that great, but I was bloody minded enoughbto stick around to wait 35 minutes amongst the smokers outside (the inside was terribly hot, loud, and crowded) for a table to open up. Just as we decided to call it a night, we checked one more time and a table opened up at Frenchie. So, because we are crazy, we got in and got a full second meal. And it was all very very good. I would still rank David Toutain #1 and Septime #2 in Paris, but this is a meal that I would be happy to have again and again.

Earlier on, we got bao to go at Yam'tcha tea house. They are pretty good, nice snack to tide us over while waiting for a late lunch reservation. We also, managed to get inside Notre Dame after ten.minutes in line. I am sure the wet day, November, and the terrorist attacks all played a role in the short line.

astrid · November 21, 2015

Ate at Au Passage and Clamato yesterday. Definitely preferred Clamato, which is essentially Septime for seafood fiends. Au passage is very nice but more down to earth and closer to the sort of food you can get at good US restaurants. The oysters at both places are very good and plump, as good as the best west coast oysters.

Le Cinq for lunch today. The dining room and service are superb. There were many nibbles to go along with our *budget 4 course* lunch. The nibbles are probably the best bites. The actual courses are perfectly prepared with fantastic saucing, but lag behind the bites. For me, experiencing this once is money well spent. The food is lovely, but everything else about the experience puts it over the top. Measured by food, Martin Berasategui, Etxebarri, and David Toutain are definitely better for us.

* 145 euros gets you 3 nibbles, 1 amuse bouche, very good breads to go with their superb butter, 2 appetizers, 1 entree, a sorbet course with 3 great nibbles, 1 dessert, your pick of candy from their candy cart, and a small box of caramels to go. You won't leave hungry.

astrid · November 21, 2015

Other notes

Poliane's miche is good, but High street on market in philly is better in my opinion. So I decided against lugging the famous 2 kg loaf home.

Louvre is a great representation of how grand Paris is. I couldn't fathom how mind bindingly huge it was until I started to walk inside it. Every room was huge, richly decorated, and full of treasures. In other cities that I have been to, the exhibition or garden or building could be lovely but is definitely finite. In Paris they just go on and on and on. So much beauty that I don't even know where to turn.

The Indian Summer has ended. The rain and cold weather are here. This confirming my decision to not stay too long in Paris in November. I got very lucky with the weather this time. If I came a week later as I originally planned, it would be a much colder and wetter trip.

DonRocks · November 21, 2015

Louvre is a great representation of how grand Paris is. I couldn't fathom how mind bindingly huge it was until I started to walk inside it. Every room was huge, richly decorated, and fill of treasures. In other cities that I have been to, the exhibition or garden or building could be lovely but is definitely finite. In Paris they just go on and on and on. So much beauty that I don't even know where to turn.

And the Mona Lisa is disappointing. :lol:

astrid · November 21, 2015

And the Mona Lisa is disappointing.

I had pretty low expectations and they were met. I was impressed by the enormous wall used to hold this smallish painting. Never understood the particular appeal of this particular painting as many contemporaneous paintings featured more alluring faces.

Something that really did surprise me were the enormous galleries of gigantic paintings. Giant classical paintings are rare in US collections, I guess they are something that you must travel to Europe to see en situ.

DonRocks · November 21, 2015

I had pretty low expectations and they were met.

It's like Venice in summertime: You have to do it ... once.

(Nothing against Venice which is *awesome*, but my goodness, the tourists! Maybe I should have said it's like The Pyramids of Giza, but I've never been there (I assume there isn't much reason to go a second time unless you *really* like eating well-done meat (from what I hear, there are refrigeration issues.)))

astrid · November 21, 2015

The crowd was quite small on our visit, maybe 50 people in front of the painting at any given time. I would definitely want to go back to the Louvre, so perhaps I would peek in to check the Mona Lisa crowd next time.

We wanted to avoid museum burnout, so we only visited the Louvre and Versailles, but otherwise, the 4 or 6 day museum pass would be a great deal. You can buy the pass at one of the less popular musuems first, then bypass the long ticketing lines at the Louvre.

We just finished our wonderful dinner at Sola, which I would rate the equal of David Toutain. Fresh seasonal ingredients, perfectly prepared to bring out their flavors. Sola, David Toutain, and Clamato would be certain visits for future trips. Septime and Frenchie would be maybe books, very good and great value for money, but not as creative or focused. L'Astrance's 70 euro lunch deal would be more tempting. I loved the Le Cinq experience, but would be curious about trying Epicure next time.

DonRocks · November 21, 2015

The crowd was quite small on our visit, maybe 50 people in front of the painting at any given time. I would definitely want to go back to the Louvre, so perhaps I would peek in to check the Mona Lisa crowd next time.

When I visited, we were roped off about 10-20 feet (I can't remember exactly) in back of the painting, and you couldn't get any closer than that - is that not the way it is?

I have *no problem* with small paintings (refer to St. George and the Dragon at the NGA), but I want to be able to see them up close; on my visit, it was like, 'Okay, I saw what appeared to be the Mona Lisa, so that's checked off my list,' but there was absolutely no chance of having any type of "artistic experience." It was like me trying to dunk a basketball - I can see what the color the rim is, but that's about all.

astrid · November 21, 2015

I mentally associate Venice with cholera tainted strawberries and Florence with the plague. Victim of reading at an impressionable age.

astrid · November 22, 2015

The rope is still there. Perfect distance for people to pose for a picture with le selfie stick.

I say this as someone with a reasonable amount of artistic training and basic skills...I don't find paintings to be very compelling as a medium, since they have been superseded by photography and videography. So I am not bothered by presence or lack of "artistic experience".

The paintings and sculptures are more interesting to me as artifacts of how long dead people (and their current caretakers) viewed their world and place in the world. I view them as collections, situated in their particular place. If I just wanted to see a picture, I can go on the internet and contemplate at my leisure. But I would prefer to read a book or watch TV or listen to a pop song instead.

DonRocks · November 22, 2015

The rope is still there. Perfect distance for people to pose for a picture with le selfie stick.

I say this as someone with a reasonable amount of artistic training and basic skills...I don't find paintings to be very compelling as a medium, since they have been superseded by photography and videography. So I am not bothered by presence or lack of "artistic experience".

The paintings and sculptures are more interesting to me as artifacts of how long dead people (and their current caretakers) viewed their world and place in the world. I viewanthem as collections, situated in their particular place. If I just wanted to see a picture, I can go on the internet and contemplate at my leisure. But I would prefer to read a book or watch TV or listen to a pop song instead.

Yikes! I sure wouldn't want you to listen to me play Rachmaninoff when my computer's in the next room!

astrid · November 23, 2015

My tastes and opinions are what they are, but yes, I might politely sit and admire the arrangement and performance but not be moved by it. I don't care for rachmaninoff and other classical composers working in the heroic mode. I prefer compositions composed for dancing, opera, choral, etc. They are more melodic and enjoyable for me.

astrid · November 23, 2015

More rambling thoughts on France.

Poliane's miche is good, but the rustic breads at High Street on Market in philly are much better in my estimation.

PAUL bakeries are ubiquitous everywhere, I would almost say the Starbucks of France but Starbucks spaces their franchises out more. Yuck because I dislike Paul and hope it's not sucking all the oxygen out of that retail space.

The CDG duty Free had 30% of on all their canned foie gras if you buy 3 tins ( mix or match), so I bought some in the name of experimentation. The prices are not terrible, though definitely a bit higher than outside retail shops.

Everyone in France evidently believes that illness comes from exposed necks. Almost all women and many men wore scarves, even on rather warm days. Everyone else also dressed much more warmly than we did. Boots, either full length or ankle length, also seem de rigueur for the women. Jeans and tights are quite popular for women.

Other than Le Cinq, the restaurants didn't have problems with button down shirts and jeans.

Joe H · November 24, 2015

"Everyone in France evidently believes that illness comes from exposed necks. Almost all women and many men wore scarves, even on rather warm days."

It's not just France-it's most everywhere in Europe. Cashmere and silk feel especially nice against one's neck.

johnb · November 24, 2015

When I visited, we were roped off about 10-20 feet (I can't remember exactly) in back of the painting, and you couldn't get any closer than that - is that not the way it is?

I have *no problem* with small paintings (refer to St. George and the Dragon at the NGA), but I want to be able to see them up close; on my visit, it was like, 'Okay, I saw what appeared to be the Mona Lisa, so that's checked off my list,' but there was absolutely no chance of having any type of "artistic experience." It was like me trying to dunk a basketball - I can see what the color the rim is, but that's about all.

I was in Rome last month and went to the Vatican Museum. It was wall to wall people; you simply walked through long hallways with your group, on the pre-arranged course that all visitors follow, with people everywhere, shoulder to shoulder. You couldn't go faster, you couldn't stop to look at anything, you couldn't really see anything. They give you little radios that your guide uses to tell you what things are, and those don't work too well, so you try to listen but it just doesn't help. All in all, a complete waste of time. I would never recommend anybody bother.

Once everybody has been told how important something is, it's too late to see it -- there are just too many other people trying to do the same thing.

DonRocks · November 24, 2015

I was in Rome last month and went to the Vatican Museum. It was wall to wall people; you simply walked through long hallways with your group, on the pre-arranged course that all visitors follow, with people everywhere, shoulder to shoulder. You couldn't go faster, you couldn't stop to look at anything, you couldn't really see anything. They give you little radios that your guide uses to tell you what things are, and those don't work too well, so you try to listen but it just doesn't help. All in all, a complete waste of time. I would never recommend anybody bother.

Once everybody has been told how important something is, it's too late to see it -- there are just too many other people trying to do the same thing.

And when I was there, there was scaffolding on part of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

Same thing a few years ago at the Rock of Cashel - it wasn't even worth seeing.

Travelers should *always* check ahead to see if things are going to be under construction.

astrid · November 24, 2015

This is why I travel during shoulder periods. I can deal with a little cold and wet easily, I can't deal with the enormous throngs of people or the everything is overbooked situations. Plus with all the weird weather nowadays, you really don't know when the weather will be good "“ so at least travelling during shoulder times guarantees smaller crowds.

We only visited the Louvre and Versailles around Paris. There was a little bit of construction in the "Marie Antoinette alcove" of Versailles but otherwise no construction activities. The Louvre does close off a portion of its collection on alternate days, so if you want to see everything there, buy a multi-day museum pass and see it over two days. Seeing the Louvre over two days will also help your sanity "“ it's just so HUUUUUUGE and overwhelming for an one-day visit. We did see it in one-day by skipping lunch (this was the day we ate two tasting menu dinners, at Verjus and Frenchie), it was a blur and I have hundreds of blurry camera pictures to prove to me that it wasn't just a fever dream of ancient Near East sculptures, Grecian urns, and endless galleries of giant paintings.

What Do You Do with Two Weeks in Western Europe in November?

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