What Do You Do with Two Weeks in Western Europe in November?

[astrid]

Thanks for directing me to Andy Hayler.  He highly rated a couple places that I had not considered in Basque country.  I wouldn't say we're hell bent on star-hunting.  More that we've never eaten at Michelin rated restaurants or fancy European restaurants, so we want to check out that world of possibilities.  We don't have a bottomless budget of time or money, so if $1,500+ and anxiously hoping that the chef's in is what it takes to really experience Michel Bras at its best, I'm going to cancel.

Gerry Dawes needs someone to re-organize his website.  Also, way too much inside baseball stuff and not actually helpful for someone in search of guidance on what to eat and drink.  Sorry but I'm going back to Tripadvisor and cross-referencing Hayler and Michelin.  

We're actually avoiding 3-stars in Paris altogether.  Parisbymouth said that Le Cinq is better than all of them, so that's going to be our splurge in Paris.

[Joe H]

I wish I had read this earlier.

1.  Call the American Embassy in Paris and ask them to e-mail you the list of the hotels where their visitors stay.  They will all be three stars (five star scale), all within the Federal per diem (i.e. approximately E 100-125 or so).  You WANT to stay in the 7th or 8th Arr.  It makes a difference when you walk out the door and you are in the middle of everything.

2.  I have driven everywhere in Europe-I had to, it was my job and I did it on business for 30+ years with an average of 30+ days each year.  The drive from south of Cannes north by Nice, by Monte Carlo and into Italy through San Remo is one of the most beautiful in the world.  Aix and the countryside is interesting.  Not as interesting as the French Riviera. ( I have too many opinions.)

3.  I've eaten at 11 or 12 three Michelin starred restaurants.  The best was in Germany (Schwarzwaldstube in the Black Forest which I prefer to Le Cinq.  Regardless even if you were going to Baiersbronn you have to reserve a year in advance).  The most interesting of any restaurant I have been to was a single star in a 2000 year old literal stone furnace on the Northern Italian coast (driving from San Remo towards Genoa) called La Fornace.  I wrote about this on Chowhound ten or more years ago and, to this date, it is the most interesting and unique restaurant I have ever been in.  Look closely at the photos:  http://www.tripadvisor.it/Restaurant_Review-g1973857-d3682925-Reviews-La_Fornace-Vado_Ligure_Italian_Riviera_Liguria.html  It may still have the Michelin star when we visited but, it is not about that. Rather, some of the stone for the Roman Coliseum came from there.  Literally, this is a twenty century old stone structure which has been styled into a restaurant; some rooms having ceilings that you have to bend over to walk under.  Most of the light is from candlelight.  It is breathtakingly beautiful, extraordinary and still open although I am not sure of its menu today.

4.  I realize that you have to go to Paris but I am also a huge fan of Bavaria (Munich to Garmische/Partenkirchen, Munich to Salzburg, Munich to Regensburg) and northern Italy including Venice, Cortina (you must go to the Dolomites), Verona, Montreaux and the Kaiserstuhl (German wine region which Americans never write about or visit) which is near Freiburg.  Also love Barcelona and Tarragona down the coast.  And, again, the French Riviera.

5.  Drive everywhere and get lost.  Serious.  It's not that far, say, from Cannes to Aix.  Get lost on the Mediterranean coast.  Literally.  As noted above it is a special place on Earth.  (As is Cortina and the Dolomites...)

6.  I realize you leave in a few days and it is too late to change many plans but you really should stay in the 7th or 8th Arr in Paris and call the Embassy for where to stay. (Probably will be a 10-30 room hotel with feather pillows, soft sheets, good mattress but small lobby and no room service.)  For myself staying in the middle of a city/village was an absolute priority.  I cannot emphasize location enough-there is much to be said for literally staying a couple of blocks from the Arch de Triumphe (which you should walk up).  And don't discount walking into, say, the Opera in the 8th.  If you are serious about Paris there is "character" in the Paris sewers and also Jim Morrison's grave.  Serious-unique experiences.  Neither is like it may sound.  Again, location:  walking out the door and seeing the Eiffel Tower a couple of blocks away is worth a lot.

And, how can you not go to Venice?  In November when there are relatiely few tourists?  I don't care if it has ten or more million tourists other months but there is nowhere else on earth like it.  If/when you return seriously consider Venice/Cortina/Bolzano/Innsbruck/Munich.

The Euro is about 1.09 to the dollar.  Since it was released in the late '90's it has fluctuated from .86 to about 1.60.  You are going at a time when it is fairly strong to the dollar.  I passionately love Switzerland (I represented a Swiss company outside of Montreaux for years.)  Unfortunately the Swiss Franc to the dollar today is about par.  For comparison in the early '80's it was 2.85 to the dollar. Switzerland is frightfully expensive.

If you are anywhere near Switzerland/Germany or Austria around the first of December look for a Christmas Market.  http://www.webcamgalore.com/EN/webcam/Germany/Munich/2.html will show the Christmas Market in Munich's Marien Platz in late November.

And....you cannot imagine the feeling of standing in Venice's San Marco Square and watching them erect a Christmas tree with snow falling.

Of course walking out of a small starred restaurant on a chilly night near the base of the Eiffel Tower is a memory, too.

Or sitting on a creekside bench at the foot of an early medieval stone wall which encircles the village of Soave and having a glass (or two) of good amarone.

Or staying in Venice's Daniele in one of the third floor rooms which have a small balcony overlooking the canal where gondoliers stop and serenade their passengers...

...

[astrid]

Joe, thanks for your thoughts.  Although Germany isn't on our radar, northern Italy certainly is so it's so nice to get feedback from experienced travelers.  We're actually staying in a 1^st  Arrond. Airbnb apartment.  We've debated the value of staying 1^st or 2^nd v. Marais v. Left Bank v. further out.  The convenience of the 1^st really won us over, since we would be able to walk to many of the attractions and restaurants.  We use Airbnb a lot when we travel and almost always have very positive experiences "“ the access to kitchen/laundry is nice and all our hosts have been gracious and helpful. 

The comparatively weak Euro is definitely a big motivation for going now.  Or rather, the strong Euro had been a big deterrent for not making this trip earlier, since we had heard horror stories of $50 breakfasts and $500/night hotel stays.  We are really delighted by how affordable the trip is turning out to be (though it will still involve spending a giant gob of money on fine dining).

[Joe H]

Joe, thanks for your thoughts.  Although Germany isn't on our radar, northern Italy certainly is so it's so nice to get feedback from experienced travelers.  We're actually staying in a 1^st  Arrond. Airbnb apartment.  We've debated the value of staying 1^st or 2^nd v. Marais v. Left Bank v. further out.  The convenience of the 1^st really won us over, since we would be able to walk to many of the attractions and restaurants.  We use Airbnb a lot when we travel and almost always have very positive experiences "“ the access to kitchen/laundry is nice and all our hosts have been gracious and helpful. 

The comparatively weak Euro is definitely a big motivation for going now.  Or rather, the strong Euro had been a big deterrent for not making this trip earlier, since we had heard horror stories of $50 breakfasts and $500/night hotel stays.  We are really delighted by how affordable the trip is turning out to be (though it will still involve spending a giant gob of money on fine dining).

FWIW Le Cinq is now a two star and its prix fixe is E 310 per person. (with wine and supplimental tip you will be around $800-900). If you are going into northern Italy take a serious look at either Le Calandre outside of Padua and/or Dal Pescatore near Mantova which are both three stars.  They will be totally different experiences, actually from each other as they will from Le Cinq.    John Mariani in Esquire in '99 called Dal Pescatore "The Greatest Restaurant in the World."  It is worth the 90 minute drive from either Verona (to the north) or Bologna (from the South).  Both Italian three stars are around E 200.

Regardless, have a great trip.

[Rovers2000]

If you end up looking at Northern Italy, in particular Verona - I definitely have some recommendations:

- We were in and around Verona for 3 days and stayed at Villa Archi (http://www.villaarchi.it/en/), spend the extra and stay in the panoramic suite

- In addition to Quintarelli we visited Steffano Accordini (up in the mountains, while a hair raising ride to the top, the view was unbelievable).

- We loved walking around Verona proper (20 or so min from the B&B, the amphitheater is really incredible and I can only imagine what it's like seeing an opera there.

- In terms of restaurants we enjoyed Osteria Giuletta, Trattoria Al Pompiere and Ristorante Oste Scuro

I'll also reiterate that this board helped TREMENDOUSLY and that Joe H in particular really gave us some advice that proved to be right on (I still have a jar of calibrian peppers for him from the autogrills )

[Joe H]

If you end up looking at Northern Italy, in particular Verona - I definitely have some recommendations:

- We were in and around Verona for 3 days and stayed at Villa Archi (http://www.villaarchi.it/en/), spend the extra and stay in the panoramic suite

- In addition to Quintarelli we visited Steffano Accordini (up in the mountains, while a hair raising ride to the top, the view was unbelievable).

- We loved walking around Verona proper (20 or so min from the B&B, the amphitheater is really incredible and I can only imagine what it's like seeing an opera there.

- In terms of restaurants we enjoyed Osteria Giuletta, Trattoria Al Pompiere and Ristorante Oste Scuro

I'll also reiterate that this board helped TREMENDOUSLY and that Joe H in particular really gave us some advice that proved to be right on (I still have a jar of calibrian peppers for him from the autogrills )

Ah...Quintarelli!

And Calabrian hot peppers!!!!

And panini at the AutoGrill.

Thank you, sir.

[astrid]

We won't make it to Italy for this trip.  But that's certainly good to know for a future trip. 

We'll be getting Le Cinq's lunch at 145 Euros.  Still a tidy sum, but less breathtakingly so.  I know a few people who have been in the past and didn't think highly of it.  However, Parisbymouth claimed that under its current chef, it's better than any of the Paris 3-stars.  TheFork and Tripadvisor reviews seem to back this up.  So while we're prepared to be let down, hopefully we've tipped the balance in our favor.

l'Astrance is the Paris 3-star bargain, at 70 Euros for lunch.  But other places sounded more interesting, so we're going to pass on it this time.

[Pool Boy]

If you end up looking at Northern Italy, in particular Verona - I definitely have some recommendations:

- We were in and around Verona for 3 days and stayed at Villa Archi (http://www.villaarchi.it/en/), spend the extra and stay in the panoramic suite

- In addition to Quintarelli we visited Steffano Accordini (up in the mountains, while a hair raising ride to the top, the view was unbelievable).

- We loved walking around Verona proper (20 or so min from the B&B, the amphitheater is really incredible and I can only imagine what it's like seeing an opera there.

- In terms of restaurants we enjoyed Osteria Giuletta, Trattoria Al Pompiere and Ristorante Oste Scuro

I'll also reiterate that this board helped TREMENDOUSLY and that Joe H in particular really gave us some advice that proved to be right on (I still have a jar of calibrian peppers for him from the autogrills )

Please tell me how you set up the visit to Quintarelli. Just a phone call or do you need an 'in'? Verona and surrounding area is one of my truly happy places.

[Joe H]

We won't make it to Italy for this trip.  But that's certainly good to know for a future trip. 

We'll be getting Le Cinq's lunch at 145 Euros.  Still a tidy sum, but less breathtakingly so.  I know a few people who have been in the past and didn't think highly of it.  However, Parisbymouth claimed that under its current chef, it's better than any of the Paris 3-stars.  TheFork and Tripadvisor reviews seem to back this up.  So while we're prepared to be let down, hopefully we've tipped the balance in our favor.

l'Astrance is the Paris 3-star bargain, at 70 Euros for lunch.  But other places sounded more interesting, so we're going to pass on it this time.

Le Cinq is sumptuous luxury and that is part of the price and the experience.  It's been several years but l'Astrance was a virtually impossible reservation but worth the effort:  three stars today.  Interestingly Alain Ducasse lost a star and is now two.

A great part of the enjoyment of a trip is the research and anticipation of what you'll experience.  That becomes even more interesting when you research restaurants where none of the reviews are in English and you have to google translate everything you read.  I did this last night with La Fornace (which I mentioned above).  Not a single English speaking person has been there recently.  For myself this became a real attraction of places that I researched.  I did not want to feel like I was in D. C. or NY-I wanted to feel like I was in another country.  I say this because some of your best experiences on your upcoming trip will be places that you stumble on and have a "feeling" about.  When you communicate through gestures and facial expressions it can help put the dining experience over the top.

[Rovers2000]

Please tell me how you set up the visit to Quintarelli. Just a phone call or do you need an 'in'? Verona and surrounding area is one of my truly happy places.

The lovely proprietor of the B&B we stayed at knew the family and called to set everything up for us.  When we had arrived she asked what we wanted to see and I essentially said that I wanted to see either Dal Forno or Quintarelli.  Unfortunately at the time Dal Forno's harvest was running late due to the warm weather extending out - but despite the fact that they were undergoing some significant renovations to their home / winery (there was a giant crane in the road that I almost had to go off road to get around) they generously offered to let us come by.

They were the kindest family.  Francesco and his father (Quintarelli's son in law I believe) conducted the tasting and made sure the case we purchased was essentially bomb proofed for the journey back.

[Joe H]

The lovely proprietor of the B&B we stayed at knew the family and called to set everything up for us.  When we had arrived she asked what we wanted to see and I essentially said that I wanted to see either Dal Forno or Quintarelli.  Unfortunately at the time Dal Forno's harvest was running late due to the warm weather extending out - but despite the fact that they were undergoing some significant renovations to their home / winery (there was a giant crane in the road that I almost had to go off road to get around) they generously offered to let us come by.

They were the kindest family.  Francesco and his father (Quintarelli's son in law I believe) conducted the tasting and made sure the case we purchased was essentially bomb proofed for the journey back.

Did you go to Dal Forno?  We first met Romano and his wife 15 or so years ago and were extremely fortunate because their then (young) son, Michele wanted to practice his English when we visited in December.  They were wonderful and spent perhaps two or three hours with us.  We repeated this almost every year for a decade.  I usually brought several bottles of American (i.e. K Vintners Royal City,, Caymus Special Selection, and green chili New Mexico pistachios, even Monks of Gethsemani fruitcake.  We've built up a friendship and are honored to know them.  Today, MIchele is married and around 35 and has a large role in the family business.  It is an absolute honor and pleasure for us to continue to visit them.

[Rovers2000]

Did you go to Dal Forno?  We first met Romano and his wife 15 or so years ago and were extremely fortunate because their then (young) son, Michele wanted to practice his English when we visited in December.  They were wonderful and spent perhaps two or three hours with us.  We repeated this almost every year for a decade.  I usually brought several bottles of American (i.e. K Vintners Royal City,, Caymus Special Selection, and green chili New Mexico pistachios, even Monks of Gethsemani fruitcake.  We've built up a friendship and are honored to know them.  Today, MIchele is married and around 35 and has a large role in the family business.  It is an absolute honor and pleasure for us to continue to visit them.

We REALLY wanted to, but I didn't want to hassle them as when we called they said due to challenges they were having with the harvest - they weren't allowing anyone to visit until they were completely done (we were there in mid-October and due to the warm fall they had waited longer than many others to start).

Quintarelli was much in the same way as the Dal Forno visits you mentioned - just a genuinely lovely family.  Chatting in their cellar while greedily looking at rows and rows of dust covered bottles of amarone that dated back to the 60's and 70's is one of my favorite memories from our Italy trip.  The winery is in good hands I think with Francesco taking over for his grandfather.  I will be curious to see (and we will return) how the renovations turn out.  They used the fact that there was some damage due to storms to the main building to expand their cellar capacity slightly.

[astrid]

I'm afraid that Hayler's reviews do not match up well with my taste. He thought very highly of Azurmendi, whereas I found it interesting, maybe even fun, definitely perfectly executed, but only had two or three dishes that made me really wish I had more of. Still, the overall experience is well worth the price of admission and I would recommend eating there if you are staying in Bilbao or in Donostia with a car.

Etxebarri, with a lower rating from Hayler's, lived up to my high personal expectations for it. The ingredients are all top notch and the grilling brings out their delicious essence. All the savories in our 4 hour dinner passed my "do I want to eat a big bowl of this" test. I was almost tempted to ask if they had lunch availability for the day we reserved for Akelarre dinner, but that would be too crazy. This is a meal that is going to get me misty eyed for years to come, so thanks so much for turning us onto it.

[astrid]

We ended up relying on TripAdvisor and the fork to guide us through Provence (I am using the term broadly). My dine list from favorite to least favorite, though really all the meals were pretty good.

Brasserie Bodegon in Lourdes - huge portions, generous use of good ingredients, everything we got (which was a waiter and chef impressing amount) was delicious. They have a big menu and we wish we could have tried more of it. The plush luxe decor was nice(if not what vacationing Americans are likely seeking in a provincial French restaurant) and service were also very good.

La Roulotte in Carcassonne - the chef likes to play with some north African flavors and he does very well by them. Probably our favorite foie gras (we have been eating foie gras everyday since landing in Paris) of the trip. The atmosphere is perfect, it's a tiny little place with momentos of the town and the chef's collection of cookbooks and gourmet magazines, a couple local families chatting up the chef and his wife, who ran the front of the house.

Cafe Llorca near Cannes - its right off of the town square and Google directions were a bit hazy. Once we are there, everything was great. The food here is deeply flavorful, seemed like time tested recipes even though it bills itself as a modern restaurant. The service was pleasant and efficient. They honored our thefork.com discount without a mention, making the meal quite inexpensive

Le QG in Arles - nice enough food and good service, though definitely not at the level of the restaurants above. All the food was a little too sweet and tasted competently prepared rather than memorably good. The atmosphere is kitschy but fun. Service was good.

Tea Room at Villa Epirussi de Rothschild - decent (might be considered memorably good at a US tourist attraction) food at a not exorbitant price, good service and pretty room. The views, like all the views at this garden, are breathtaking. The gardens here are so heartbreakingly beautiful and romantic.

El primo/ La Chimere in Aix - they have the same owner and we are at both as part of our progressive dinner. The portions are generous and service good enough, the food is a bit hit and miss, though even the misses were tasty enough (chewy duck, charcouterie plate dominated by giant slices ham, greasy clams). It was Monday night and there weren't a lot of other choices. You can probably do much better on a different night or with more planning.

[astrid]

Other trip notes.

We lucked into some recordbreakingly great weather thus far in our trip, sunny and in the high teens celcius on most days. The Mediterranean Sea in Cote d'Azur is warm enough to swim in. Sometimes fools (traveling in November, generally considered the worst weather month for the region) just get very very lucky.

Almost no snow in Haut Pyrennes except for the permanent snow caps on the very tallest peaks. The ski area around Pic du Midi are impressive for the scale of ski lift coverage and the outstanding views from both sides. Cirque de Gavarnie was pretty enough, but not nearly as spectacular as the views from the high mountain passes.

Provence feels like an incredible bargain coming from DC. The Aix market prices are maybe 75% off of prices at comparable DC farmer's markets. These guys and gals know how to make an alluring pile of vegetables or tray of cyclamens.

The Airbnb apartments that we have stayed at are fabulous. Beautifully renovated places near the center. Nice accommodating hosts. Generous bathrooms and kitchen spaces. It's really a great option for longer stays (for shorter stays, the hassle of research and communicating with hosts, plus per stay cleaning fees, may tip the balance towards hotels).

If you want to sleep with top sheets, pack them in your luggage.

France feels like a different world, but Basque lands feels strangely familiar to me, like a more beautiful version of California combined with Chinese provincial cities.

Aix's town center is indeed very beautiful, but let me also put in a good word for Arles as a base.  The town itself is almost as quaint and lovely as Aix, only much quieter and easier to get around.  There's enough Roman ruins, castles, churches, and nature within easy driving distance to easily occupy a week.  Aix is better for access to Grasse and Cote d'Azur, however.

Guggenheim Bilbao's restaurant Nerua and bistro both gets fully booked up even in November,luckily the bar is quite good and not too busy.

If you don't have the time, skip the Marie Antoinette portion of the Versailles tour, it's a really really long walk and what you see may not be worth the amount of effort exerted.

Laduree macarons (purchased in Versailles as an alternative to lunch) are well made, but too sweet for my taste.  Looking forward to eating all the pastries and chocolates, once we're in Paris again.

The drive from Cannes to Frejus is like Arizona with a beach front and infested by architects looking for challenges.

When the concierge at Hotel Artetxe (fantastic little hotel with a great view of the city) tell you that you can walk to the Guggenheim, he meant the fully paved path with properly maintained concrete stairs. Not the Google recommended route that starts in a gravel road and end in a 45 degree gravel footpath with slippery wet grass and fallen leaves.

We have lost the ability to drive by map (I had lugged the full Michelin France map book in our luggage, that was foolish). Luckily, free WiFi at many locations and Google map app's offline capabilities have saved many drives from utter disaster.

Le Clos Y in Paris failed to live up to my expectations - food was impeccably prepared and used good ingredients, but somewhat lacking in deliciousness for me.  Ugh!

The awful situation in Paris is certainly causing some possible concerns for the final leg of our trip. Though our host in Donostia informs me that they made a cross border round trip yesterday with only minor delays. I imagine that Paris will be very different.

[astrid]

Martin Berasategui, which I just found out is Tripadvisor's #1 restaurant globally, delivered very well indeed.

The dining room is nicely appointed, but in a bland-ish way that lacks the sleek modernism of Azurmendi or the traditional coziness of Etxebarri.  It's comfortable in the way of a nice resort or country club dining room.  There is no music and the ample spacing mutes the conversations so that we cannot make out any of the neighboring table's conversations.  The floor to ceiling windows look out out to a nice verdant background of a green hill with several attractive houses in the distance.  But there is nothing here to distract me from the food that I came here for.

The dining room staff may be the best trained and possibly the nicest one that I've ever encountered - un-intrusive, quick on their feet, quick to anticipate and fulfill your needs even before you got around to ask.  They all speak with kindness and good humor, explaining components of each dish and answering our questions clearly and promptly.  It's one of the rare occasions where I feel like the service truly adds something special to the overall experience.  The other nice thing for us is that service was pretty fast - unlike the epic 4 hour meals at Azurmendi and Etxebarri, the staff moved us efficiently between courses and we had the full tasting menu in about two hours.

Two very delicious hours.  The dishes here are probably less experimental than Azurmendi, though there are gels, foams, hot and cold foods together, and foods appearing in surprising forms.  They were also fun, perfect, tasty, and went great together.  All dishes except perhaps the truffle egg dish meets my "I want to eat a big bowl of this" test for deliciousness - though the chef makes a point of saying that he conceives of all his dishes as 3 or 4 bites each.

In summary - I would highly recommend Martin Berasategui to anyone visiting Donostia.  (Though you should also figure out how to visit Etxebarri, even if the logistics of going there are a bit more challenging).

[Joe H]

Other trip notes.

We lucked into some recordbreakingly great weather thus far in our trip, sunny and in the high teens celcius on most days. The Mediterranean Sea in Cote d'Azur is warm enough to swim in. Sometimes fools (traveling in November, generally considered the worst weather month for the region) just get very very lucky.

Almost no snow in Haut Pyrennes except for the permanent snow caps on the very tallest peaks. The ski area around Pic du Midi are impressive for the scale of ski lift coverage and the outstanding views from both sides. Cirque de Gavarnie was pretty enough, but not nearly as spectacular as the views from the high mountain passes.

Provence feels like an incredible bargain coming from DC. The Aix market prices are maybe 75% off of prices at comparable DC farmer's markets. These guys and gals know how to make an alluring pile of vegetables or tray of cyclamens.

The Airbnb apartments that we have stayed at are fabulous. Beautifully renovated places near the center. Nice accommodating hosts. Generous bathrooms and kitchen spaces. It's really a great option for longer stays (for shorter stays, the hassle of research and communicating with hosts, plus per stay cleaning fees, may tip the balance towards hotels).

If you want to sleep with top sheets, pack them in your luggage.

France feels like a different world, but Basque lands feels strangely familiar to me, like a more beautiful version of California combined with Chinese provincial cities.

Aix's town center is indeed very beautiful, but let me also put in a good word for Arles as a base.  The town itself is almost as quaint and lovely as Aix, only much quieter and easier to get around.  There's enough Roman ruins, castles, churches, and nature within easy driving distance to easily occupy a week.  Aix is better for access to Grasse and Cote d'Azur, however.

Guggenheim Bilbao's restaurant Nerua and bistro both gets fully booked up even in November,luckily the bar is quite good and not too busy.

If you don't have the time, skip the Marie Antoinette portion of the Versailles tour, it's a really really long walk and what you see may not be worth the amount of effort exerted.

Laduree macarons (purchased in Versailles as an alternative to lunch) are well made, but too sweet for my taste.  Looking forward to eating all the pastries and chocolates, once we're in Paris again.

The drive from Cannes to Frejus is like Arizona with a beach front and infested by architects looking for challenges.

When the concierge at Hotel Artetxe (fantastic little hotel with a great view of the city) tell you that you can walk to the Guggenheim, he meant the fully paved path with properly maintained concrete stairs. Not the Google recommended route that starts in a gravel road and end in a 45 degree gravel footpath with slippery wet grass and fallen leaves.

We have lost the ability to drive by map (I had lugged the full Michelin France map book in our luggage, that was foolish). Luckily, free WiFi at many locations and Google map app's offline capabilities have saved many drives from utter disaster.

Le Clos Y in Paris failed to live up to my expectations - food was impeccably prepared and used good ingredients, but somewhat lacking in deliciousness for me.  Ugh!

The awful situation in Paris is certainly causing some possible concerns for the final leg of our trip. Though our host in Donostia informs me that they made a cross border round trip yesterday with only minor delays. I imagine that Paris will be very different.

There is a great deal of fear right now in Paris-it is not going to be the same experience that it might have been before last Friday.    For myself, if possible, I would cancel the entire Parisian portion of the trip and instead go to Verona, Venice and Cortina.  I believe you will eat certainly as well (three star Le Calandre outside of Padua, three star Dal Pescatore outside of Mantova, what I wrote above about Venice.  The Dolomites are spectacularly beautiful, Verona is romantic and Venice is unmatched anywhere else on earth.  Especially in November without many tourists.  Stay at Giabbio D'ior in Verona  You'll literally be in the middle of the ancient city and can walk everywhere.  Autostrada and train are nearby, Venice is an hour train ride, Padua an45 minute drive for dinner and Cortina one hour northeast up into the high moutnains where you should get lost exploring.  There is also a superb Michelin starred restaurant there that is unearthly beautiful.

Go to Paris when you will feel comfortable-not now.  Fly out of Verona or Venice our if you want a nonstop back the closest airports will be Milan's Malpensa and Munich's.

Also consider Strausberg and the German Kaiserstuhl along with the German Black forest.  THE SINGLE BEST RESTAURANT ON YOUR ENTIRE TRIP WILL BE IN BAIERSBROON, Germany:  Schwarzwaldstube.  It is the first three

german three star and the most difficult reservation in the 85 million Germany to get.  I think it is better than anywhere in Paris.  Certainly as good as anywhere. Call them and ask.  They are also in one of the most beautiful places on earth.  The Kaisterstuhl is the German wine country and it is idyllic-not known by Americans but that is part of its charm.

Honestly, I much prefer all of this, the German/Strausburg stops and the KaisterstuhlBlack Forest excusion along with an alternative to Northern Italy than anywhere in France.

Good luck,.

I've had 15 or more trips to Paris since the late '90's but would not go right now.  I wouldn't hesitate to return to the others.

[astrid]

Thanks for your kind recommendations but changing our itineraries is not an option, we have many nonrefundable tickets and Airbnb booking tied to the Paris leg. Not to mention a number of Paris restaurant reservations that I anxiously nursed through weeks and months ago. Yes, there will be longer security lines and more anxiety, but Paris will still be Paris, and I want to see her as is.

I also think it's important not to let unfounded fear dominate my actions. If the Americans had known that after 9/11, perhaps there would not be ISIS to terrorize Syrians and Lebanese and Parisiens today, considering that ISIS grew out of the utter disaster of US failure in Iraq, where there was no WMD and no support of Al Qaeda.

I hope the French will do the same, and recognize their route to safety is not through fear and oppression of the "other", but in better treatment and cooperation with its citizens of North African extraction.

Also, what happened in Paris can easily happen anywhere. I am honestly be more concerned about my daily METRO commute (I am very much so, I am rather shocked that there hasn't been a DC based incident in the last 15 years, which makes me wonder why), than my safety in Paris.

[Joe H]

 

Thanks for your kind recommendations but changing our itineraries is not an option, we have many nonrefundable tickets and Airbnb booking tied to the Paris leg. Not to mention a number of Paris restaurant reservations that I anxiously nursed through weeks and months ago. Yes, there will be longer security lines and more anxiety, but Paris will still be Paris, and I want to see her as is.

I also think it's important not to let unfounded fear dominate my actions. If the Americans had known that after 9/11, perhaps there would not be ISIS to terrorize Syrians and Lebanese and Parisiens today, considering that ISIS grew out of the utter disaster of US failure in Iraq, where there was no WMD and no support of Al Qaeda.

I hope the French will do the same, and recognize their route to safety is not through fear and oppression of the "other", but in better treatment and cooperation with its citizens of North African extraction.

Also, what happened in Paris can easily happen anywhere. I am honestly be more concerned about my daily METRO commute (I am very much so, I am rather shocked that there hasn't been a DC based incident in the last 15 years, which makes me wonder why), than my safety in Paris.

 

You are going to do what you need to do and what you believe.  I wish you the absolute best.

[DonRocks]

Also, what happened in Paris can easily happen anywhere. I am honestly be more concerned about my daily METRO commute (I am very much so, I am rather shocked that there hasn't been a DC based incident in the last 15 years, which makes me wonder why), than my safety in Paris.

As soon as I read the first sentence, I knew "Schwarzwaldstube" would be mentioned, and quite honestly, I'm surprised In N Out wasn't.

[astrid]

After having enjoyed two of the finest meals of our lives at Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui, comes the thudding 3 star major fail.

We had the worst fine dining experience of this year at Akelarre. The nibbles and foie gras courses were okay but utterly unremarkable. The rest of the savories tasted powerfully and one dimensionally of salt. The sweets tasted one dimensionally of other flavors, meh or worse.

The food seems correctly executed to the right doneness and there were even a few texture highlights such as the crisp suckling pig skins. Rather, I lay the blame on how the dishes were conceived.

We knew by the second course that it was probably going to be a bad meal, but hoped for things to improve. Then it was a matter of sheer bloody-minded determination and sunk cost fallacy, along with the fact there were far fewer courses than any of the other 3 stars or Etxebarri, that led us to finish the meal. Yup, in addition to being bad, it was also a complete ripoff, as I simply can't fathom where our money went, when that was very abundantly clear elsewhere - at Azurmendi, I couldn't fathom how the chef could afford to give us so much for our money.

The service, while nice and not inattentive, was also the sloppiest that I have seen in a long while. Silverware was practically tossed on the table with no thought as to placement. The half bottle of water that we paid for was cleared from the table at the start of the dessert course, and was not replaced. We ate the desserts and sweets with nearly empty glasses.

Well, it was a memorable meal alright!

[DonRocks]

After having enjoyed two of the finest meals of our lives at Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui, comes the thudding 3 star major fail.

We had the worst fine dining experience of this year at Akelarre. The nibbles and foie gras courses were okay but utterly unremarkable. The rest of the savories tasted powerfully and one dimensionally of salt. The sweets tasted one dimensionally of other flavors, meh or worse.

The food seems correctly executed to the right doneness and there were even a few texture highlights such as the crisp suckling pig skins. Rather, I lay the blame on how the dishes were conceived.

We knew by the second course that it was probably going to be a bad meal, but hoped for things to improve. Then it was a matter of sheer bloody-minded determination and sunk cost fallacy, along with the fact there were far fewer courses than any of the other 3 stars or Etxebarri, that lead us to finish the meal. Yup, in addition to being bad, it was also a complete ripoff, as I simply can't fathom where our money went, when that was very abundantly clear elsewhere - at Azurmendi, I couldn't fathom how we got so much for our money.

The service, while nice and not inattentive, was also the sloppiest that I have seen in a long while. Silverware was practically tossed on the table with no thought as to placement. The half bottle of water that we paid for was cleared from the table at the start of the dessert course, and was not replaced. We ate the desserts and sweets with nearly empty glasses.

Well, it was a memorable meal alright!

Honestly, hits and misses like this are the way you become a bonafide expert (you already know this, I'm sure).

[astrid]

Honestly, hits and misses like this are the way you become a bonafide expert (you already know this, I'm sure).

Learning just how far off the mark Michelin (and not just Michelin, Hayler and Tripadvisor's aggregate score both sounded no alarm) could be was the major inducement for finishing the meal. I stayed 2 extra days in San Sebastian for this and skipped a revisit to Etxebarri on the same day so we could fully appreciate the Akelarre meal. We paid a heavy price for this lesson.

[DonRocks]

Learning just how far off the mark Michelin (and not just Michelin, Hayler and Tripadvisor's aggregate score both sounded no alarm) could be was the major inducement for finishing the meal. I stayed 2 extra days in San Sebastian for this and skipped a revisit to Etxebarri on the same day so we could fully appreciate the Akelarre meal. We paid a heavy price for this lesson.

The knowledge is more important than the hedonism. Hayler knows what he's doing - you really might have caught them on an awful night; then again, there can be no off nights at this rating and price point. None.

[astrid]

Just because Hayler has eaten at all the Michelin 3 stars doesn't mean his assessment will be accurate to his readers' experience. I have now eaten at several restaurants that he reviewed and my experience doesn't match any of his reviews much at all. A couple dishes that he highlighted as being the best at a particular restaurant, I found to be far from the highlight of the meal.

His review of Paris 3 stars are also miles away from Meg Zimbeck's roundup last year. When he has eaten at so many fine dining places, he may be looking for very different things from someone who can only afford to indulge at this level on a very infrequent basis. In any case, I have enough disagreements with any specific critic to know better than follow blindly.

I have enough fine dining experience to be confident of calling it as I see it, and I saw a massive fail last night. It was all edible, a few dishes such as the foie, squid risotto, and steak tartare could be considered competently prepared but unexceptional, the rest was bad. And as the joke goes, not enough on the plate to justify anywhere near the price. And accompanied by demonstrably sloppy service.

[DonRocks]

Just because Hayler has eaten at all the Michelin 3 stars doesn't mean his assessment will be accurate to his readers' experience. I have now eaten at several restaurants that he reviewed and my experience doesn't match any of his reviews much at all. A couple dishes that he highlighted as being the best at a particular restaurant, I found to be far from the highlight of the meal.

His review of Paris 3 stars are also miles away from Meg Zimbeck's roundup last year. When he has eaten at so many fine dining places, he may be looking for very different things from someone who can only afford to indulge at this level on a very infrequent basis. In any case, I have enough disagreements with any specific critic to know better than follow blindly.

I have enough fine dining experience to be confident of calling it as I see it, and I saw a massive fail last night. It was all edible, a few dishes such as the foie, squid risotto, and steak tartare could be considered competently prepared but unexceptional, the rest was bad. And as the joke goes, not enough on the plate to justify anywhere near the price. And accompanied by demonstrably sloppy service.

Well, I would agree that I am probably the most reliable critic in the world (which I have no doubt that you're implying (*)); the problem being that I haven't been to as many top-top end restaurants as a Hayler or a Plotniki because I just don't have that kind of cash - it takes many millions of dollars to do.

My line of preference when it comes to putting someone in their place is: "I've slept on mattresses most every night of my life, but I don't know the first thing about mattresses." (I actually made that line up - there's just so much truth to it. People go through life - and meals - and don't even give a thought to what they're shoveling in their maws.) I could tell you horror stories about people - ungrateful people who tout themselves as "food experts" - whom I've treated to dinner, and who just sat at the table, and shoveled, and shoveled, finishing a course in a matter of just a couple of minutes, and then waiting impatiently for the next one to arrive. One story in particular cost me nearly $700 - needless to say, I don't take many people out to dinner anymore. Ironically, a disproportionate number of people I've treated to dinner have been the ones who have stabbed me in the back by spreading slanderous rumors about me (you've quite possibly heard about such things) - one day I will write a book, chock full of stories that would be funny if they weren't so sad, revealing the dark side of "humanity," if that's what you can classify these people as being. These people don't understand the first thing about food; they merely like to eat. God, if you only knew how much I let myself be abused just because I was trying to be appreciative and show some kindness - I'm going to stop now before I rattle off 100 pages about these porcine cretins.

(*)

[Bart]

Since I can't "Like" the entire thread, I'll just say THANKS to everyone who posted here!

There's a ridiculous amount of fantastic information here, 99% of which I knew nothing. From restaurant names, to reviewer names, to place names and locations, it was all a huge unknown to me (and truthfully, since I just skimmed the posts, it still is) but if I ever plan a trip over there I'm going to rely heavily on this thread and this site!

Thanks all!

[dracisk]

I second the thanks. I've been following along with fascination. I've been to Paris several times and to Barcelona once, but I've never done a fine dining tour like this. Amazing. Also, when I heard about the Paris attacks I immediately thought of astrid even though we've never interacted on the site much less met each other in real life!

[astrid]

I am glad to hear that this thread is helpful for others, just as it's been really helpful for me.

Tonight's dinner was at restaurant David Toutain and it was incredible. I think what was achieved here is even more impressive than Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui. For those, one is focused on doing one thing very very well and the other utilizes some kitchen wizardry to impress, and both chefs had several decades to perfect their craft.

David Toutain, on the other hand, does not have decades of greatest hits to fall back on (though I am sure training under Alain Passard helped a lot) or much apparent kitchen wizardry. It's all about elevating fresh seasonal ingredients to another level. There are plenty of young chefs in the States who are doing this, but I haven't yet encountered a kitchen that put out more delicious food than what I just ate tonight.

Everything was wonderful but what I really can't get over how good the butter is, like salty creamy melty candy, I could just eat pats of the stuff by itself. But then I think of the wonderful, sweet scallop, probably the best scallop I have ever eaten. Or the truffled potato "risotto". Or that perfectly cooked and sauced cod...

The service is great too, charming and handsome and good at their jobs and have a sense of humor.

[DonRocks]

I am glad to hear that this thread is helpful for others, just as it's been really helpful for me.

Tonight's dinner was at restaurant David Toutain and it was incredible. I think what was achieved here is even more impressive than Etxebarri and Martin Berasategui. For those, one is focused on doing one thing very very well and the other utilizes some kitchen wizardry to impress, and both chefs had several decades to perfect their craft.

David Toutain, on the other hand, does not have decades of greatest hits to fall back on (though I am sure training under Alain Passard helped a lot) or much apparent kitchen wizardry. It's all about elevating fresh seasonal ingredients to another level. There are plenty of young chefs in the States who are doing this, but I haven't yet encountered a kitchen that put out more delicious food than what I just ate tonight.

Everything was wonderful but what I really can't get over how good the butter is, like salty creamy melty candy, I could just eat pats of the stuff by itself. But then I think of the wonderful, sweet scallop, probably the best scallop I have ever eaten. Or the truffled potato "risotto". Or that perfectly cooked and sauced cod...

The service is great too, charming and handsome and good at their jobs and have a sense of humor.

I don't know how many Michelin stars David Toutain has (I absolutely do not trust Michelin, especially outside of France), but I know from experience that some of the best meals I've ever had have been at one- and two-star restaurants hell-bent on getting three. No different there than here.

[Joe H]

I don't know about how many Michelin stars David Toutain has (I absolutely do not trust Michelin, especially outside of France), but I know from experience that some of the best meals I've ever had have been at one- and two-star restaurants hell-bent on getting three. No different there than here.

I could not disagree with you more about not trusting Michelin outside of France.  I found, over the years, that I tended to agree with their starred restaurants in Italy and Germany as often as I did with their opinions about starred restaurants in France.

Gault Millau, L'Espresso and others were valuable as well.  Often I would take a consensus of those opinions as well as research someone whose opinions had tended to reflect mine at other restaurants.  Simple example:  I agree with Tom Sietsema far more than I disagree with his evaluations.  I agree with Todd Kliman far less.  A Sietsema rave will have more importance to me than Kliman.  If Dave MacIntyre raves about a particularly jammy, fruity full bodied red I am probably going to buy a bottle before the week is out.  I would not say this about many other wine writers-but I think I understand Dave's taste and feel that some of his preferences mirror mine.

There is another source, however:  chefs.  If, say, Roberto Donna would tell me about a restaurant he likes I will find a way to go.  This includes a Turkish/Lebanese/Greek restaurant in Frederick that he introduced me to which was wonderful.  A fair question for an accomplished chef overseas is where they would go for an anniversary meal?  Of, if there was one chef within 100 km who would they want to have eat at their table?  The next question is what would they serve him or her and, of course, I would immediately order it for that evening.

[astrid]

It's a Paris 1 star and Parisbymouth's #1 recommendation. I'm not sure he is gunning for additional stars, however. The decor and the service are both quite informal, in the nicest sense.

It provides a wonderful contrast to the dreadful Akelarre meal. In fact they both had a citrus and chocolate dessert as part of the dessert course. The Akelarre dessert was dreadful, too sweet and impossible to eat and flavored only by the bitterness of the orange rind. the DT version was full of flavors that played happily off each other and light like a dream.

[astrid]

I have only had an evening so far, but I don't think Paris has changed too much. Our Airbnb host mentioned that he had a few cancellations, unfortunately. But otherwise, still good crowds at Les Halles shopping center. The Christmas market along Champs-Elysees is a dazzling sight. Major change noticed was that several major buildings are lit in the color of the French flag and there were a few cops sighted with machine guns.

Our multi hour walk in the heart of Paris felt very safe, well into the night, and no sense of siege mentality here.

And you all are right, Paris is magic. We will definitely want to come back for a more extensive visit.

[astrid]

I misremembered or Parisbymouth did some ranking shifting last night. David Toutain is #2. Today we had lunch at their current #1, Septime. It was very very very good. The dishes weren't quite as creative as Toutain's, so I still prefer last night's meal. But well worth the price, the trek to the 11th (where things are more tense, many more teams of soldiers and police with automatics and even walked passed a nearby laundry where police and firemen were doing...something), and the week of OCD checking of thefork.com for available reservations.

Then off to the 6th for Jardin Luxembourg, or not because it closes at 4:30 pm, which means the entrances were blocked by 4. I made up for this by hitting the local chocolatiers and Pierre Herme.

Then dinner at Verjus, which was very good too, but it's all starting to blur a bit. As part of their mandatory tasting menu, we had more scallops, more salsify, more caramelized apples. I am not complaining, since each chef put an interesting spin on their version and each was delicious.

Then because we felt we had room for a little more food, we headed towards Frenchie wine bar. It was really packed and honestly the menu didn't sound that great, but I was bloody minded enoughbto stick around to wait 35 minutes amongst the smokers outside (the inside was terribly hot, loud, and crowded) for a table to open up. Just as we decided to call it a night, we checked one more time and a table opened up at Frenchie. So, because we are crazy, we got in and got a full second meal. And it was all very very good. I would still rank David Toutain #1 and Septime #2 in Paris, but this is a meal that I would be happy to have again and again.

Earlier on, we got bao to go at Yam'tcha tea house. They are pretty good, nice snack to tide us over while waiting for a late lunch reservation. We also, managed to get inside Notre Dame after ten.minutes in line. I am sure the wet day, November, and the terrorist attacks all played a role in the short line.

[astrid]

Ate at Au Passage and Clamato yesterday. Definitely preferred Clamato, which is essentially Septime for seafood fiends. Au passage is very nice but more down to earth and closer to the sort of food you can get at good US restaurants. The oysters at both places are very good and plump, as good as the best west coast oysters.

Le Cinq for lunch today. The dining room and service are superb. There were many nibbles to go along with our *budget 4 course* lunch. The nibbles are probably the best bites. The actual courses are perfectly prepared with fantastic saucing, but lag behind the bites. For me, experiencing this once is money well spent. The food is lovely, but everything else about the experience puts it over the top. Measured by food, Martin Berasategui, Etxebarri, and David Toutain are definitely better for us.

* 145 euros gets you 3 nibbles, 1 amuse bouche, very good breads to go with their superb butter, 2 appetizers, 1 entree, a sorbet course with 3 great nibbles, 1 dessert, your pick of candy from their candy cart, and a small box of caramels to go. You won't leave hungry.

[astrid]

Other notes

Poliane's miche is good, but High street on market in philly is better in my opinion. So I decided against lugging the famous 2 kg loaf home.

Louvre is a great representation of how grand Paris is. I couldn't fathom how mind bindingly huge it was until I started to walk inside it. Every room was huge, richly decorated, and full of treasures. In other cities that I have been to, the exhibition or garden or building could be lovely but is definitely finite. In Paris they just go on and on and on. So much beauty that I don't even know where to turn.

The Indian Summer has ended. The rain and cold weather are here. This confirming my decision to not stay too long in Paris in November. I got very lucky with the weather this time. If I came a week later as I originally planned, it would be a much colder and wetter trip.

[DonRocks]

Louvre is a great representation of how grand Paris is. I couldn't fathom how mind bindingly huge it was until I started to walk inside it. Every room was huge, richly decorated, and fill of treasures. In other cities that I have been to, the exhibition or garden or building could be lovely but is definitely finite. In Paris they just go on and on and on. So much beauty that I don't even know where to turn.

And the Mona Lisa is disappointing.

[astrid]

And the Mona Lisa is disappointing.

I had pretty low expectations and they were met. I was impressed by the enormous wall used to hold this smallish painting. Never understood the particular appeal of this particular painting as many contemporaneous paintings featured more alluring faces.

Something that really did surprise me were the enormous galleries of gigantic paintings. Giant classical paintings are rare in US collections, I guess they are something that you must travel to Europe to see en situ.

[DonRocks]

I had pretty low expectations and they were met. 

It's like Venice in summertime: You have to do it ... once.

(Nothing against Venice which is *awesome*, but my goodness, the tourists! Maybe I should have said it's like The Pyramids of Giza, but I've never been there (I assume there isn't much reason to go a second time unless you *really* like eating well-done meat (from what I hear, there are refrigeration issues.)))

[astrid]

The crowd was quite small on our visit, maybe 50 people in front of the painting at any given time. I would definitely want to go back to the Louvre, so perhaps I would peek in to check the Mona Lisa crowd next time.

We wanted to avoid museum burnout, so we only visited the Louvre and Versailles, but otherwise, the 4 or 6 day museum pass would be a great deal. You can buy the pass at one of the less popular musuems first, then bypass the long ticketing lines at the Louvre.

We just finished our wonderful dinner at Sola, which I would rate the equal of David Toutain. Fresh seasonal ingredients, perfectly prepared to bring out their flavors. Sola, David Toutain, and Clamato would be certain visits for future trips. Septime and Frenchie would be maybe books, very good and great value for money, but not as creative or focused. L'Astrance's 70 euro lunch deal would be more tempting. I loved the Le Cinq experience, but would be curious about trying Epicure next time.

[DonRocks]

The crowd was quite small on our visit, maybe 50 people in front of the painting at any given time. I would definitely want to go back to the Louvre, so perhaps I would peek in to check the Mona Lisa crowd next time.

When I visited, we were roped off about 10-20 feet (I can't remember exactly) in back of the painting, and you couldn't get any closer than that - is that not the way it is?

I have *no problem* with small paintings (refer to St. George and the Dragon at the NGA), but I want to be able to see them up close; on my visit, it was like, 'Okay, I saw what appeared to be the Mona Lisa, so that's checked off my list,' but there was absolutely no chance of having any type of "artistic experience." It was like me trying to dunk a basketball - I can see what the color the rim is, but that's about all.

[astrid]

I mentally associate Venice with cholera tainted strawberries and Florence with the plague. Victim of reading at an impressionable age.

[astrid]

The rope is still there. Perfect distance for people to pose for a picture with le selfie stick.

I say this as someone with a reasonable amount of artistic training and basic skills...I don't find paintings to be very compelling as a medium, since they have been superseded by photography and videography. So I am not bothered by presence or lack of "artistic experience".

The paintings and sculptures are more interesting to me as artifacts of how long dead people (and their current caretakers) viewed their world and place in the world. I view them as collections, situated in their particular place. If I just wanted to see a picture, I can go on the internet and contemplate at my leisure. But I would prefer to read a book or watch TV or listen to a pop song instead.

[DonRocks]

The rope is still there. Perfect distance for people to pose for a picture with le selfie stick.

I say this as someone with a reasonable amount of artistic training and basic skills...I don't find paintings to be very compelling as a medium, since they have been superseded by photography and videography. So I am not bothered by presence or lack of "artistic experience".

The paintings and sculptures are more interesting to me as artifacts of how long dead people (and their current caretakers) viewed their world and place in the world. I viewanthem as collections, situated in their particular place. If I just wanted to see a picture, I can go on the internet and contemplate at my leisure. But I would prefer to read a book or watch TV or listen to a pop song instead.

Yikes! I sure wouldn't want you to listen to me play Rachmaninoff when my computer's in the next room!

[astrid]

My tastes and opinions are what they are, but yes, I might politely sit and admire the arrangement and performance but not be moved by it. I don't care for rachmaninoff and other classical composers working in the heroic mode. I prefer compositions composed for dancing, opera, choral, etc. They are more melodic and enjoyable for me.

[astrid]

More rambling thoughts on France.

Poliane's miche is good, but the rustic breads at High Street on Market in philly are much better in my estimation.

PAUL bakeries are ubiquitous everywhere, I would almost say the Starbucks of France but Starbucks spaces their franchises out more. Yuck because I dislike Paul and hope it's not sucking all the oxygen out of that retail space.

The CDG duty Free had 30% of on all their canned foie gras if you buy 3 tins ( mix or match), so I bought some in the name of experimentation. The prices are not terrible, though definitely a bit higher than outside retail shops.

Everyone in France evidently believes that illness comes from exposed necks. Almost all women and many men wore scarves, even on rather warm days. Everyone else also dressed much more warmly than we did. Boots, either full length or ankle length, also seem de rigueur for the women. Jeans and tights are quite popular for women.

Other than Le Cinq, the restaurants didn't have problems with button down shirts and jeans.

[Joe H]

"Everyone in France evidently believes that illness comes from exposed necks. Almost all women and many men wore scarves, even on rather warm days."

It's not just France-it's most everywhere in Europe.  Cashmere and silk feel especially nice against one's neck.

[johnb]

When I visited, we were roped off about 10-20 feet (I can't remember exactly) in back of the painting, and you couldn't get any closer than that - is that not the way it is?

I have *no problem* with small paintings (refer to St. George and the Dragon at the NGA), but I want to be able to see them up close; on my visit, it was like, 'Okay, I saw what appeared to be the Mona Lisa, so that's checked off my list,' but there was absolutely no chance of having any type of "artistic experience." It was like me trying to dunk a basketball - I can see what the color the rim is, but that's about all.

I was in Rome last month and went to the Vatican Museum.  It was wall to wall people; you simply walked through long hallways with your group, on the pre-arranged course that all visitors follow, with people everywhere, shoulder to shoulder.  You couldn't go faster, you couldn't stop to look at anything, you couldn't really see anything.  They give you little radios that your guide uses to tell you what things are, and those don't work too well, so you try to listen but it just doesn't help.  All in all, a complete waste of time.  I would never recommend anybody bother.

Once everybody has been told how important something is, it's too late to see it -- there are just too many other people trying to do the same thing.

[DonRocks]

I was in Rome last month and went to the Vatican Museum.  It was wall to wall people; you simply walked through long hallways with your group, on the pre-arranged course that all visitors follow, with people everywhere, shoulder to shoulder.  You couldn't go faster, you couldn't stop to look at anything, you couldn't really see anything.  They give you little radios that your guide uses to tell you what things are, and those don't work too well, so you try to listen but it just doesn't help.  All in all, a complete waste of time.  I would never recommend anybody bother.

Once everybody has been told how important something is, it's too late to see it -- there are just too many other people trying to do the same thing.

And when I was there, there was scaffolding on part of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

Same thing a few years ago at the Rock of Cashel - it wasn't even worth seeing.

Travelers should *always* check ahead to see if things are going to be under construction.

[astrid]

This is why I travel during shoulder periods.  I can deal with a little cold and wet easily, I can't deal with the enormous throngs of people or the everything is overbooked situations.  Plus with all the weird weather nowadays, you really don't know when the weather will be good "“ so at least travelling during shoulder times guarantees smaller crowds.

We only visited the Louvre and Versailles around Paris.  There was a little bit of construction in the "Marie Antoinette alcove" of Versailles but otherwise no construction activities.  The Louvre does close off a portion of its collection on alternate days, so if you want to see everything there, buy a multi-day museum pass and see it over two days.  Seeing the Louvre over two days will also help your sanity "“ it's just so HUUUUUUGE and overwhelming for an one-day visit.  We did see it in one-day by skipping lunch (this was the day we ate two tasting menu dinners, at Verjus and Frenchie), it was a blur and I have hundreds of blurry camera pictures to prove to me that it wasn't just a fever dream of ancient Near East sculptures, Grecian urns, and endless galleries of giant paintings.