Serena Williams (1981-), An All-Time Great Tennis Player with Over 700 Singles Victories and 21 Major Singles Titles

[DonRocks]

On 9/11/2015 at 2:09 PM, Kibbee Nayee said:

But now, Serena can go off to her rightful sports destination of NFL linebacker or Olympics heavyweight wrestling.

 

Kibbee,

 

(I'm on-record as saying I believe that many athletes, including Williams, use steroids (and I hope that when people read this post, they'll see that neither gender, nor color, nor nationality, nor even *species* has anything to do with me saying that - it's purely circumstantial). In Williams' case, I don't see how she can perform what amounts to several hours of wind sprints, at age 34, with that much mass, and be *so* muscular even though she says she does almost no weight training. I personally think it's humanly impossible, but I also think that about many other athletes, and I'm the first to admit that I may be wrong about any or all of them. Look at Lindsey Davenport, a former World #1, who was 6' 2 1/2", and not a small lady. However, her final singles Grand Slam came at age 23, and this is *before* tennis turned into such an all-out fitness competition. How can someone do this at age 34?)

 

Serena Williams has always been a big, muscular girl. Look at this 1999 video of her playing Steffi Graf. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_iAya_PHYo

[Tujague]

Don, I believe you when you say that you have no racial, gender, etc. bias re: Williams, even if I disagree with you about steroid use. But I am fed up with the racist, sexist, body-shaming bias that gets routinely thrown at her, the last as exemplified in Kibbee's comments (and the other as implied). That has no place in civil discourse here or anyplace, and disrespects her dignity as a player and as a human being- -and of other woman of color. Serena may have too much class to say "Fuck you" to people who throw that shit her way, but I don't. If we don't call this crap out for the racist, sexist bullshit it is, it gets normalized and anyone--including me and you, Kibbee, can become a fair target for that kind of name calling and slurs. It's offensive, period.

[Ericandblueboy]

Don, I believe you when you say that you have no racial, gender, etc. bias re: Williams, even if I disagree with you about steroid use. But I am fed up with the racist, sexist, body-shaming bias that gets routinely thrown at her, the last as exemplified in Kibbee's comments (and the other as implied). That has no place in civil discourse here or anyplace, and disrespects her dignity as a player and as a human being- -and of other woman of color. Serena may have too much class to say "Fuck you" to people who throw that shit her way, but I don't. If we don't call this crap out for the racist, sexist bullshit it is, it gets normalized and anyone--including me and you, Kibbee, can become a fair target for that kind of name calling and slurs. It's offensive, period.

Why shame Barry Bonds then? Why not vote him into the hall of fame with no asterisk? I guess we're just racist when calling out Bonds and discriminatory against one nut guys for calling out Armstrong.

[DonRocks]

Don, I believe you when you say that you have no racial, gender, etc. bias re: Williams, even if I disagree with you about steroid use. But I am fed up with the racist, sexist, body-shaming bias that gets routinely thrown at her, the last as exemplified in Kibbee's comments (and the other as implied). That has no place in civil discourse here or anyplace, and disrespects her dignity as a player and as a human being- -and of other woman of color. Serena may have too much class to say "Fuck you" to people who throw that shit her way, but I don't. If we don't call this crap out for the racist, sexist bullshit it is, it gets normalized and anyone--including me and you, Kibbee, can become a fair target for that kind of name calling and slurs. It's offensive, period.

[Tujague, just to let you know that I had a PM sent to me that was pretty much the equal of what you said here. I very much want to print my response (and if the person who sent it wants to write what he wrote me, and my response to him, he has my permission).

If I was fairly certain the comment was racist, I wouldn't allow it. I didn't like Kibbee's post (and honestly, I spent a fair amount of time going back-and-forth about whether or not to let it stand); instead, I tried to change the subject into something positive about Serena Williams (who deserves her own thread as the great champion that she is) while at the same time addressing the other issues previously written here head-on, so as not to pretend they don't exist, and I guess I didn't do a very good job.

What I *don't* want this thread to turn into is a discussion about this, when it should be a discussion about Serena Williams as a whole; I guess I can always move these posts, but I have no idea where to move them to - I'll think of something ... carry on.]

[Kibbee Nayee]

Kibbee here....racist was not my intention, and I am not racist, so accept my apology for unintended reactions....had you known me during the Lance Armstrong or Mark McGwire or Rafael Palmeiro or Roger Clemens or Alex Rodriguez news cycles, you would know that my rant is simply but whole-heartedly about the integrity of the game. I view professional sports as having a sanctity that is owed to the fans across generations, so that the sport is about the sport, not the individual players trying to squeeze every nickel out of it.

(I also dislike the antics of Pete Rose and Scott Boras, two entirely different examples of humans whose interest is not so much the sport or the fan, but the money.)

People who use PEDs are cheating the sport of its integrity, and depriving the fans of honesty, while pocketing vast sums of cash for performances that are ridiculous. Their body types are the only empirical evidence we have that something is fishy with their performance. Until testing improves, all we have is body type to indicate that something is wrong with these otherwise inexplicable accomplishments. And so far, body type has been a pretty good indicator that something is amiss with these bizarre performances.

[dcs]

This is the PM I sent Don last evening:

Really, I mean no disrespect, but why are are politics and religion off limits but attacks on athletes in bounds? At this point all we have is speculation. I might speculate that Donald Trump had a serious cocaine habit, but should I post that?

With Don's blessing, this was his response:

You think I should lay off on the steroids, or was Kibbee's post out of bounds? I was honestly trying to deflect him away from criticizing her body type; maybe I did it the wrong way. Let me know your opinion. I can always delete that thread, but then his post will remain up, unchallenged. This is why I brought up Davenport - to show that someone can be big and still win.

(A lot of athletes I've mentioned are known steroid users - I don't see it as an "attack," so much as explaining why they're doing all these freak things.)

Honestly, Lance Armstrong sort of jaded me forever. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for so long, even though he was doing the impossible. And he hurt a *lot* of people in his way.

That said, I tried to start that thread out of respect for Williams; to try to right the course, if you will. If you think I should delete it, I will. HOWEVER, Serena absolutely merits her own thread, so maybe I should just change the wording some? I can pull the steroids comments if you think that would help. Gimme some opinions here - I don't know what to do; I'm too closely involved with the tennis world. I could reword that post so it has a completely different tenure - maybe that's the answer? To celebrate her as a champion and dispense with the steroids talk?

Maybe it is because I place no special emphasis on sports that I lack any real moral outrage regarding athletes using performance enhancing drugs.  If body type is the main indicator, then I suppose the entire NFL and NBA should be indicted.  BTW, performance enhancing drugs are not a recent development.  Read Ball Four by Jim Bouton.  Routine amphetamine use seemed to be common in baseball in the 1960s, and I suspect long before that.  Did LSD "enhance" Dock Ellis such as to result in his no-hitter?  Should that invalidate the achievement?  [Do click on the animated short in that link.  It is hilarious.]

[Tujague]

Kibbee here....racist was not my intention, and I am not racist, so accept my apology for unintended reactions....had you known me during the Lance Armstrong or Mark McGwire or Rafael Palmeiro or Roger Clemens or Alex Rodriguez news cycles, you would know that my rant is simply but whole-heartedly about the integrity of the game. I view professional sports as having a sanctity that is owed to the fans across generations, so that the sport is about the sport, not the individual players trying to squeeze every nickel out of it.

(I also dislike the antics of Pete Rose and Scott Boras, two entirely different examples of humans whose interest is not so much the sport or the fan, but the money.)

People who use PEDs are cheating the sport of its integrity, and depriving the fans of honesty, while pocketing vast sums of cash for performances that are ridiculous. Their body types are the only empirical evidence we have that something is fishy with their performance. Until testing improves, all we have is body type to indicate that something is wrong with these otherwise inexplicable accomplishments. And so far, body type has been a pretty good indicator that something is amiss with these bizarre performances.

Kibbee, I wholly believe that you are not a racist. I do, however, believe that comment was rooted in the sort of unexamined racism and sexism that can infect just about anyone's thoughts and words--my own included, to my profound embarrassment and shame. The problem, I think, is that there is such an ugly history of racism, classism, and not just sexism but misogyny that is attached to black women in tennis--starting with Althea Gibson, and perhaps especially with the Williams sisters. I just don't think there is a way to address your concern about PEDs without explicitly acknowledging this history and delicately trying to detach your argument from it as best you can, like fine neurosurgery. Clever or ill-considered quips and comparisons are pretty much a sure-fire way to stumble into this sort of upset. There's no need to disrespect or demean her to make your legitimate point, which I am NOT trying to silence.

Perhaps the better comparison than the Lindsey Davenport one Don makes is to Martina Navratilova and Amelie Mauresmo--two extremely muscular women in tennis who had to battle similar sorts of comparisons, plus the toxin of homophobia. And perhaps the better question than focusing on any particular player--Williams, Nadal, etc.--is to ask why PEDs in tennis seem to be an utter non-issue in the media, certainly compared to other sports, team or individual, when you would think it would be raised frequently and loudly if there were real concerns about their use/abuse. (Other drugs like cocaine seem to be a larger concern and stumbling block to players.)

But, since Don wants this to be a positive string about Serena, as a non-sports fanatic, I simply think she is the supreme individual sports figure of our time. Her sheer willpower, even when it lets her down, like yesterday, is phenomenal. I can't imagine what it's like to function at such a high level with all the animus and disrespect that gets directed at her, unless that is the real fuel to her success, not PEDs.

(Also, my anger has to do in part with the sort of crap my rugby-playing niece takes from both men and women simply for being an extremely fit--and attractive--woman. But she tells me that what she experiences on that front is nothing to what her black teammates get. There is something truly, deeply horrible here and we owe to sportswomen of all races to stand against it, without silencing other legitimate concerns.)

[DonRocks]

But, since Don wants this to be a positive string about Serena

Not "positive" so much "fair, balanced, and diverse." If someone wants to argue that Williams appears to abuse PEDs, they can. If someone wants to say she's a poor winner and an even worse loser, that's fine (preferably with some video to back up the assertion). If someone wants to celebrate her legacy by saying she's the greatest tennis player to walk the face of the earth, that's great (this thread would not exist if it weren't for that salient feature). If someone wants to comment on all the racism and prejudice she has had to endure, then by all means, speak up.

No personal insults - that's pretty much the only restriction.

I will add that anyone who thinks racism doesn't or didn't exist in tennis needs to read this article:

"Tennis' Dirty Little Secret" written in 2007 by Julian Johnson (a person well-known to DC-area tennis historians) on blackathlete.net

And for anyone who doesn't believe in the power of the pen:

"Dr. Robert Johnson", Tennis Hall of Fame, Class of 2009

[Keithstg]

More horrendous behavior...If only it weren’t so predictable.

[DonRocks]

1 hour ago, Keithstg said:

More horrendous behavior...If only it weren’t so predictable.

I try, and try, and try, and keep trying to like her.

[Keithstg]

1 minute ago, DonRocks said:

I try, and try, and try, and keep trying to like her.

She makes it difficult. Her talent is undeniable, but she's a supreme front-runner, with a rapidly deteriorating attitude.

The NCAA's were on last week. Watching the men and women play for their schools was a study in sportsmanship, for the most part. Serena could learn a lot by watching them and their attitudes (and by watching the men - anyone in the round of 16 would beat her pretty handily and most won't crack the ATP top 250).

[DonRocks]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:17 PM, DonRocks said:

I try, and try, and try, and keep trying to like her.

Right now, Williams is behind Simona Halep 6-2, 1-1 (in the second set) in the finals of Wimbledon.

Williams is the strongest shot maker I've ever seen - her power is incredible, off both wings and the serve. She's losing so far because Halep is counter-punching her with 90% of the power, and fleetness of foot that I've rarely seen since Steffi Graf was playing. If Halep keeps this intensity up, I don't see how Williams can win, simply because she can't run that fast anymore; still, I am amazed at the raw power and placement of Williams' game - if she's set up to hit the shot, the opponent is going to be sprinting to reach the ball.

And so far, she has shown absolutely none of the explosions (*) that have recently plagued her - and she's playing better because of this (as I finished this post, she just held serve to go up 2-1 in the second set).

(*) It has been said many times that tennis champions hate to lose more than they like to win, and I think Williams has lost so infrequently that it has taken some time for her to realize she's human.

ETA - Wow, did you see the third point of the fourth game of the second set?

[DonRocks]

Watching the Wimbledon post-match interview right now, Williams is absolutely at peace - it's really nice to see.

[Keithstg]

6 hours ago, DonRocks said:

Watching the Wimbledon post-match interview right now, Williams is absolutely at peace - it's really nice to see.

That was a very nice and gracious interview. Really appreciated it.

I did find Pam Shriver’s commentary on the chair umpire selection odd, though.

[DonRocks]

38 minutes ago, Keithstg said:

I did find Pam Shriver’s commentary on the chair umpire selection odd, though.

I've seen that chair umpire before, and I think she has been in some controversial situations.

[Keithstg]

23 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

I've seen that chair umpire before, and I think she has been in some controversial situations.

Yep! Shriver was saying that she was glad that a woman was chosen to serve as chair umpire as a woman would better understand the emotions expressed on court. Huh?!?!