VW Cheats on Emissions Tests for its Diesel Models

[DonRocks]

This is egregious - it not only defrauds the buyers of the cars (who were trying to be "environmentally conscious"), but has also harmed the entire electric auto industry. It's amazing that companies think they can get away with this in the long-term.

"VW Cheated on U.S. Pollution Tests for 'Clean Diesels'" by Jerry Hirsch on latimes.com

[Josh]

As an owner of a VW diesel that is probably affected, I can tell you that I am LIVID.

[DonRocks]

As an owner of a VW diesel that is probably affected, I can tell you that I am LIVID.

I'm sorry this happened to you, man. You're directly affected not only because of pollutants, but also because of resale value.

There are few if any things in life that anger me more than "abuse of power or betrayal of trust" - when I look back at people and companies that I viscerally *hate* - and there have only been a handful in my entire life - in each case, it's because I trusted them enough to voluntarily enter into a relationship where they had some type of power over me, and they betrayed my trust by abusing that power for personal gain.

At that point, all logic goes out the door, and an overriding desire to obtain justice takes over.

"You know this isn't worth it, right?"

"Of course I do."

I've had that conversation several times.

[Josh]

Oh yeah.  Once they formally inform me my car is involved, we will go to f*cking war.

[The Hersch]

This is egregious - it not only defrauds the buyers of the cars (who were trying to be "environmentally conscious"), but has also harmed the entire electric auto industry. It's amazing that companies think they can get away with this in the long-term.

"VW Cheated on U.S. Pollution Tests for 'Clean Diesels'" by Jerry Hirsch on latimes.com

I found this story just totally shocking. Negligence and cover-up, as with the GM ignition problems, are appalling, but this kind of deliberate corporate fraud just shocks me. I own a VW car, and have owned two before this one, (although never a diesel), and feel kind of personally violated by this crime. I think people should go to prison over this, if anyone goes to prison for anything. But Don--how does this harm the electric auto industry?

[DonRocks]

I found this story just totally shocking. Negligence and cover-up, as with the GM ignition problems, are appalling, but this kind of deliberate corporate fraud just shocks me. I own a VW car, and have owned two before this one, (although never a diesel), and feel kind of personally violated by this crime. I think people should go to prison over this, if anyone goes to prison for anything. But Don--how does this harm the electric auto industry?

Because VW and Audi diesels sold when people might have otherwise bought hybrid.

Also, less R&D money went into electric motors because of falsified diesel test results, luring investors away from one technology and towards the other.

(This makes sense, right?)

If this is "what I think it is," I agree - jail time. I suspect what happened is that there was so much money sunk into this, that when disappointing initial test results came back, they decided to make some "adjustments" to meet their expectations; I doubt they set out with a blank piece of paper and said, "Hey, let's dupe the public!"

[DaveO]

Wow, and holy sh!t, and some additional exclamations of utter shock and surprise.   The scope of this fraud is now worldwide, not just focused on the US.  The levels of fraud are extraordinary on the personal, legal, state, and national levels, and clearly and completely deliberate.  Sort of brings back memories of Enron, and WorldCom which were massive corporate frauds, only focused on the US, not worldwide.

On a sidenote (political basis) I simply don't understand the theory that businesses should be free of government oversight and regulation.  The ideas behind this thinking are pure bogus as businesses can be wretched crooks.  Additionally, having specifically worked markets on a daily basis, there is no golden pot at the end of the rainbow on letting markets run wild.  (now I love working markets--simply love it).  But left to run on their own they simply go into extremes and the end results are big big problems.

Back to the specifics.  Wow, this is huge deliberate fraud.  @JoshNE.   Good luck with your personal efforts around this situation.

As to what and whom it will hurt:   Well VW, for one.   I would think it will kill diesels under the perspective that they could be more fuel efficient OR more environmentally friendly, but evidently not both.  On that basis it should help electric cars.

But who knows.   That is fortune telling.  Time will tell.

[The Hersch]

Because VW and Audi diesels sold when people might have otherwise bought hybrid.

Also, less R&D money went into electric motors because of falsified diesel test results, luring investors away from one technology and towards the other.

(This makes sense, right?)

Yes it does. I hadn't figured out your train of thought, but what you say must be true.

[Tujague]

Because VW and Audi diesels sold when people might have otherwise bought hybrid.

Also, less R&D money went into electric motors because of falsified diesel test results, luring investors away from one technology and towards the other.

(This makes sense, right?)

VW is one of the few companies producing both diesels as well as electric/hybrid vehicles. I don't doubt that there is a sizable part of the market that still resists hybrid/electric technologies, and so with this they could cater to a wider audience, and boost their average MPG numbers to meet stricter regulations. So, it may not be that less money went into electric/hybrid R&D, but that their R&D in diesel tech showed worse results than they hoped, but they had sunk so much money into it that they felt they couldn't abandon it.

As to what and whom it will hurt:   Well VW, for one.   I would think it will kill diesels under the perspective that they could be more fuel efficient OR more environmentally friendly, but evidently not both.  On that basis it should help electric cars.

My guess is that VW is not the only company fudging numbers on diesel vehicles, and this is the tip of the iceberg--Daimler and a number of other companies with major diesel programs are probably shaking in their boots right now. It's mystifying to think why a technologically advanced company like VW would not be able to get results similar to Daimler, unless the latter is cheating also. But if they aren't, then there is no reason why this should kill diesels. (On the other hand, Mazda is struggling to produce a SkyActiv diesel for the US that gets the performance they are aiming for; it seems to be less about MPG or emissions.)

[DaveO]

My guess is that VW is not the only company fudging numbers on diesel vehicles, and this is the tip of the iceberg--Daimler and a number of other companies with major diesel programs are probably shaking in their boots right now. It's mystifying to think why a technologically advanced company like VW would not be able to get results similar to Daimler, unless the latter is cheating also. But if they aren't, then there is no reason why this should kill diesels. (On the other hand, Mazda is struggling to produce a SkyActiv diesel for the US that gets the performance they are aiming for; it seems to be less about MPG or emissions.)

Oh man.  If you go back to the 90's and this was somewhat regional as it impacted homegrown MCI.....MCI was purchased in a big corporate takeover in the 90's by a "smaller company" WorldCom.   Within a couple of years WorldCom went down the tubes as all its finances were found to be fraudulent.  The company was losing money, but reporting different results.

Not exactly the same thing as technology....but when the WorldCom fiasco blew up, the competitors at AT&T went a little berserk.  Every year WorldCom would show some remarkably different financial results to the bottom line than did AT&T.  The folks at AT&T couldn't figure it out.  They were buying the same underlying equipment on heavy investments and doing the same things, but WorldCom's financial results were way different and dramatically more profitable.

WorldCom was cheating.   End of story.

Your points are well taken.  The testers should be testing all vehicles now for these kinds of "quirks".  They should be testing other diesels and they should be testing non diesels.  Who is cheating --who isn't?   Who installed cheating, masking technology and who didn't?   If some engineers from VW who were familiar with these actions went elsewhere...and its probable they did, this kind of technology could have spread quickly.

[pcollins]

Considering the millions US Taxpayers have already paid out to VW because of their "clean" technology, you can imagine that they will be hunting for each dollar of this, with interest.

While I do not sell cars, I've spoken to a few dealers today who were happy that they weren't going to have to compete with VW for sales for the foreseeable future.