Momofuku CCDC (2015-2020), a Popular New York Pan-Asian Chain in City Center, Open for Lunch and Dinner Seven Days

[dinoue]

Finally tried this out for lunch and I doubt I will be going back. Momofuku ramen was good, but at $17 for the bowl, total ripoff. Even if he is paying kitchen staff decent salaries with benefits, that does not justify that price for that ramen. 

Noodles themselves were very good, about as good as many I had on our trip to Japan last month. Soup was good and I drank every last drop, since it was so expensive i figure each sip was worth about 50 cents, though I didn't feel it was any better than one of the 500 yen bowls I had in Tokyo. This is where I think the focus on specially sourced ingredients gets out of hand. You could probably use cheap stuff to make that broth and it would taste just as good as the heirloom pork bones, or perhaps they ARE using the cheap stuff but charging us for the expensive. 

Two types of pork in the soup, pork belly which was basically fat, and shredded roasted pork which was way too salty. Still ate it when I thought how much it was costing me. Again, going back to the supposed quality of the ingredients, why put so much salt on the meat if it is such high quality? Don't you want the quality of the meat to shine through?

Don't get me wrong, the ramen was good, but at $17/bowl, I expect transcendent and better than perfect. 

I finished the meal with a blueberry/cream cookie which was OK, but overly sweet and gooey, the latter being not necessarily in a good way. It was as if the fats and the sugars were separating in the cookie. It was just a little off.

I think the most interesting thought I had through all this was that this is what Guy Fieri might do if he opened an Asian restaurant, prepare a good $12 ramen because that's what the "everyman" wants to eat and charge a premium for it since his name is on it so maybe he can trick people wtih money into trying to latch on to his trendiness and common person ethos. I guess David Chang is now the Asian version.

[genericeric]

1 hour ago, dinoue said:

I think the most interesting thought I had through all this was that this is what Guy Fieri might do if he opened an Asian restaurant, prepare a good $12 ramen because that's what the "everyman" wants to eat and charge a premium for it since his name is on it so maybe he can trick people wtih money into trying to latch on to his trendiness and common person ethos. I guess David Chang is now the Asian version.

Your point is not lost, but I think to be fair, David Chang is generally known as a talented chef - not that this was necessarily reflected in your ramen, but seems to be in its associated price.  Fieri's 'talent' is not as widely recognized...

It's a bit hard to compare prices internationally between Japan and America, but this is a celebrity chef-driven restaurant in one of the most expensive pieces of real estate in the city.  I'm not meaning to argue that the ramen was or was not 'worth' it - but it's going to be hard to pay that rent and other overhead costs with a $12 lunch.

[MsDiPesto]

8 minutes ago, genericeric said:

<snip> I'm not meaning to argue that the ramen was or was not 'worth' it - but it's going to be hard to pay that rent and other overhead costs with a $12 lunch.

Hence the wine prices?

[mtureck]

19 hours ago, dinoue said:

I think the most interesting thought I had through all this was that this is what Guy Fieri might do if he opened an Asian restaurant, prepare a good $12 ramen because that's what the "everyman" wants to eat and charge a premium for it since his name is on it so maybe he can trick people wtih money into trying to latch on to his trendiness and common person ethos. I guess David Chang is now the Asian version.

Don't know where to start with this comment. Chang is one of the most influential chefs of the century so far, and his restaurants have been lauded far and wide. To put him in the same sentence as a guy that hosts a decent food/travel show and throws his name on some horrible restaurants that he has nothing to do with? No...just, no.

[Josh Radigan]

Cost of Real Estate, factor in now that he is paying $$$ for staff to include benefits (something a lot of restaurant owners are now learning is a key way to retain staff) and that bowl of Ramen is starting off at a higher price point. Let me ask this, would you have gone to his place for lunch today if it were in Anacostia (lower real estate costs) and the service and tempo were ok, not great, maybe somewhat off (high turnover amongst staff) and said 'hey, that $12 bowl of ramen was worth going back for next week...'

[silentbob]

Not that I profess to know anything about real estate costs or restaurant economics generally, but isn't there some happy medium between an Anacostia vs. City Center location (seems like a false choice otherwise) where the price of said bowl of ramen comes out somewhere like $14 or $15?

[Kev29]

30 minutes ago, silentbob said:

Not that I profess to know anything about real estate costs or restaurant economics generally, but isn't there some happy medium between an Anacostia vs. City Center location (seems like a false choice otherwise) where the price of said bowl of ramen comes out somewhere like $14 or $15?

Toki

[silentbob]

5 minutes ago, Kev29 said:

Toki

Sorry my point was unclear, I should have added "for Momofuku DC" after the parenthetical.  Assuming of course that where its ramen prices are set is as dependent on location as employee payroll.

[Jonathan]

7 hours ago, Josh Radigan said:

Cost of Real Estate, factor in now that he is paying $$$ for staff to include benefits (something a lot of restaurant owners are now learning is a key way to retain staff) and that bowl of Ramen is starting off at a higher price point. Let me ask this, would you have gone to his place for lunch today if it were in Anacostia (lower real estate costs) and the service and tempo were ok, not great, maybe somewhat off (high turnover amongst staff) and said 'hey, that $12 bowl of ramen was worth going back for next week...'

Where is it written that he pays benefits and high wages to his staff? I remember reading that he wanted to pay his staff like $18/HR but never read anywhere that he was doing such things. And if he is paying benefits, what are they? What percentage is he paying of health insurance etc?

[Josh Radigan]

Sister in law works at the original in NYC so info is on her down low. What I know is that he pays way above the average on kitchen $ and helps with insurance. When was the last time a non-corporate restaurant paid any part of insurance. I have worked for several in the past and not one did, and they were big guys.

 

 

[Eric Ziebold]

1 hour ago, Josh Radigan said:

Sister in law works at the original in NYC so info is on her down low. What I know is that he pays way above the average on kitchen $ and helps with insurance. When was the last time a non-corporate restaurant paid any part of insurance. I have worked for several in the past and not one did, and they were big guys.

Since you asked, our contribution covers 100% of the insurance for our employees. 

[Jonathan]

2 hours ago, Josh Radigan said:

Sister in law works at the original in NYC so info is on her down low. What I know is that he pays way above the average on kitchen $ and helps with insurance. When was the last time a non-corporate restaurant paid any part of insurance. I have worked for several in the past and not one did, and they were big guys.

In the post Obama-care world it is much more common than you think. Tail Up Goat, Mindful Restaurants are two I know from experience. And I was under the impression that he pays the normal $12-$15 per hour for cooks that is industry standard.

[Josh Radigan]

Thank you Chef Ziebold and Jonathan for your insight. What I know is from an insider in their NYC store. As for the growing number of smaller to mid-size restaurants and companies that offer benefits you are right that much has changed over the last 8 years. That being said the companies that I worked for offered little to no assistance on benefits. They may have changed but my point originally was that often people forget that some of restaurant pricing can be affected by the cost of doing business outside of food and beverage costs. Such as real estate costs and benefits.

 

[Marty L.]

Boy, this thread is straying from the relevant point, isn't it?  I think it's fair to assume that David Chang and his financiers are no more or less profit-driven than 99% of the others in the business.  I think it's also fair to presume that Momofuku is setting its prices so as to bring in approximately the same profit margins as anyone else.  But for whatever reason -- perhaps most importantly, they chose to open a huge space, much of it not being used regularly, in the most prime real-estate area in town -- they have chosen to charge $18 (plus tip and tax, of course) for a bowl of (very good but not the best-in-town) ramen.  And it's not worth the cost, even if their motives and business practices are entirely commendable.  The same is true of many of their dishes -- I enjoy them, but rarely feel as if I'm getting my money's worth.  I feel anxious spending what I do there, because it's hard for me to justify the cost.  

This is also true at many, many other places in town, some of which I would love to visit more frequently, but which I instead reserve for special occasions (and even then, I feel very uneasy).  Prices have gone haywire in the District--starting with $15 cocktails and $11 glasses of juice, which are at least twice what they oughta be, and continuing from there.  This is not an indictment of the proprietors-- the rents are undoubtedly sky-high at many of these locations, and if the market will bear those prices (as the long waits for tables suggest), then more power to them.  Apparently there is an endless supply of disposable income in this town these days; but if so, I don't have it (and neither do many other Rockwellians).  I'm just crossing my fingers that these trends don't price me out of the places that I frequent because their food is great and their prices are (relatively) reasonable (even if not cheap), such as 2 Amys, Thip Khao, Seki, Indigo, Little Serow.  Prices have been inching up at all of these, too; but they all offer much better bang for the buck than many other very fine places.  Don, I wonder whether it might be useful to start an "especially good value" thread . . . .   

[sandynva]

On September 16, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Marty L. said:

  Prices have gone haywire in the District--starting with $15 cocktails and $11 glasses of juice, which are at least twice what they oughta be, and continuing from there.  This is not an indictment of the proprietors-- the rents are undoubtedly sky-high at many of these locations, and if the market will bear those prices (as the long waits for tables suggest), then more power to them.  Apparently there is an endless supply of disposable income in this town these days; but if so, I don't have it (and neither do many other Rockwellians).   

 As Marty points out, there are a lot of places in town where the price to value proportion seems out of whack,  so I'm curious why Chang would come in for more criticism then others, and why people might only feel the price is justified if he's paying his staff substantially more than other people do.  I love José Andres, and actually think his places are overall one of the best values in town, but if you compare the prices of his falafel or spinach pie at zaytinya  to what you pay at a smaller Greek/ middle eastern place  it's got to be at least twice the price per volume. But I don't hear complaints.   There are plenty of places in DC, many of which are beloved on this board, where I've paid $20 for pizza that was no better then a $13 one from 2 Amy's, or plate of about six ravioli  that were good, but not amazing (  in some cases not even that much better than some of the higher end offerings in grocery stores or Trader Joe's ), and left me quite hungry and needing another course or two (  At least a bowl of chang Ramen is filling,  and I think the hozon Ramen is the best vegetarian Ramen I've had in town )

 But I accept it because you're paying for a nice venue, often expensive real estate, decor, and often a celebrity chef.   Why is chang treated differently then? He's undoubtedly a celebrity and the restaurant is definitely trendy. Does it go back to people just expecting to pay less for certain foods than others? 

[Genevieve]

On 9/16/2016 at 11:57 AM, sandynva said:

 As Marty points out, there are a lot of places in town where the price to value proportion seems out of whack,  so I'm curious why Chang would come in for more criticism then others, and why people might only feel the price is justified if he's paying his staff substantially more than other people do.  I love José Andres, and actually think his places are overall one of the best values in town, but if you compare the prices of his falafel or spinach pie at zaytinya  to what you pay at a smaller Greek/ middle eastern place  it's got to be at least twice the price per volume. But I don't hear complaints.   There are plenty of places in DC, many of which are beloved on this board, where I've paid $20 for pizza that was no better then a $13 one from 2 Amy's, or plate of about six ravioli  that were good, but not amazing (  in some cases not even that much better than some of the higher end offerings in grocery stores or Trader Joe's ), and left me quite hungry and needing another course or two (  At least a bowl of chang Ramen is filling,  and I think the hozon Ramen is the best vegetarian Ramen I've had in town )

 But I accept it because you're paying for a nice venue, often expensive real estate, decor, and often a celebrity chef.   Why is chang treated differently then? He's undoubtedly a celebrity and the restaurant is definitely trendy. Does it go back to people just expecting to pay less for certain foods than others? 

At Zaytinya, for example, I agree that getting falafel there is not a good value. I only order the more creative items there, which I wouldn't be able to get in a smaller Greek/middle Eastern, and for those, I feel they're a good value (plus yes, the value for the attractive venue, good location for meeting people handy to the Metro and the sights, etc.).

I haven't gone to Momofuku yet, even though I enjoyed the one in Toronto very much, because I haven't heard great reviews of the food. If people were saying it was really excellent food, I would go at least once and pay the additional price. I was interested originally (even though there are many other places around town I'd rather eat at for the price point), but the reviews have made it seem not worth it. I was never planning on going for the ramen (Daikaya's all I need there), but I was interested the shrimp buns or shiitake buns. But the menu doesn't seem as interesting as the Toronto outpost, and I liked the Milk Bar desserts there very much but have yet to hear much good about the ones at Momofuku. If it's going to be that pricey, it needs to be good.

[DonRocks]

On 9/16/2016 at 9:27 AM, Marty L. said:

Boy, this thread is straying from the relevant point, isn't it?

[Nah. Let the conversation be organic - it's up to me to (ultimately) split things up into their proper home, but I'd rather let things flow naturally at first.]

On 9/16/2016 at 9:27 AM, Marty L. said:

Don, I wonder whether it might be useful to start an "especially good value" thread . . . .   

We have one , sort of: "Cheap Eats" doesn't necessarily imply "Especially Good Value," although there's also an "Off-Hour Bargains" thread (plus, nobody has posted about Taco Bell in there, so there are some minimum standards being met). I'm wondering if there's a new thread, if it should be "item-based" (Meat Loaf at Negril (assuming they still have it)) or "restaurant-based" (2 Amys). Well, we'll see how the world turns. 

In terms of prices trending sky-high and you being hosed out of the market:

1) Don't overestimate human capability for intelligent, long-term thought.

2) Remember the Roaring Twenties

I am of the firm belief that there are a lot of people out there living above their means, and that we're in another bubble - just like we were in 2007. For us to have recovered from "the worst economic situation since The Great Depression" as fast as we did ... remember when Warren Buffet said, not long before the 2000 tech crash, that he was no longer involved in tech stocks, because he lacked the capability to understand that market?

When the irrational becomes the new normal, that's when it's time to run.

I'm curious why Chang would come in for more criticism then others

Chang is a self-promoter, and also quite famous, so he not only gets more criticism than others, but also more adulation than others. 

[Marty L.]

Sorry, I didn't mean that it was off-topic--it's all about Mofofuku.  I just meant that it had turned to questions of Chang's motives, rather than simply whether the ramen is worth paying $18/tip/tax for.

[dinoue]

Sorry to post what might be considered something inflammatory and then not log in again for a few days. I stand by my Fieri comparison because I think what they are fundamentally trying to do is similar. Fieri's based his career on the concept of dive restaurants where one can presumably get good food in an unexpected location, and tending towards more homestyle/stick to your ribs. Chang is trying to do exactly this by promoting ramen as something costing three to four times what one can get in Tokyo. Yes, you can actually get a bowl of ramen in Tokyo for under 400 yen. I didn't try it, but was shocked that it is possible, and Tokyo is not exactly known for reasonable rental rates. Yes, its only a few dollars more than Daikaya, but that few dollars is more than 25% more, that's the thing when you're "elevating" what should be a cheap quick meal in price, but not in the fundamental quality of the food itself. You can't get a 25% increase in quality to justify that increase in price. 

Chang has done some great things with some of his restaurants and in one of his interviews he was pretty emphatic that he didn't want to do the greatest hits, and wanted to be creative at Momofuku DC, but I don't see that happening. He is becoming a caricature of himself, a lot of self promotion, particularly of a specific image he thinks will appeal to his perceived audience. Seriously, the only time I drink watery beer is when it's the happy hour deal for $2 at All Set. He claims to drink it all the time.

In my opinion, Chang has become a caricature of everything he has always claimed to be against in high end dining, but still thinks he speaks for the essence of pure food. The food might not be as bad as Guy Fieri's, but the marketing concept, which includes the location and it's accompanying high rent, driving it is more powerful than the culinary concepts.

[Ericandblueboy]

Chang brought ramen to the masses in the U.S.  He also brought baos to the masses in the U.S.  He's never been creative, he was simply a person who introduced some undiscovered good foods to the U.S.  I don't think he's a great chef, but he's no caricature like Fieri.  Last I checked, Chang doesn't called Momofuku flavor town, and Momofuku never got a zero star review.

My point, comparing Chang to Fieri is insulting to Chang, like comparing a Republican politician to Trump.

[Jonathan]

10 hours ago, dinoue said:

He is becoming a caricature of himself, a lot of self promotion, particularly of a specific image he thinks will appeal to his perceived audience. Seriously, the only time I drink watery beer is when it's the happy hour deal for $2 at All Set. He claims to drink it all the time.

In my opinion, Chang has become a caricature of everything he has always claimed to be against in high end dining, but still thinks he speaks for the essence of pure food. The food might not be as bad as Guy Fieri's, but the marketing concept, which includes the location and it's accompanying high rent, driving it is more powerful than the culinary concepts.

I couldn't agree more. Not to mention, the cereal milk ice cream is terrible.

[dinoue]

13 hours ago, Ericandblueboy said:

Chang brought ramen to the masses in the U.S.  He also brought baos to the masses in the U.S.  He's never been creative, he was simply a person who introduced some undiscovered good foods to the U.S.  I don't think he's a great chef, but he's no caricature like Fieri.  Last I checked, Chang doesn't called Momofuku flavor town, and Momofuku never got a zero star review.

My point, comparing Chang to Fieri is insulting to Chang, like comparing a Republican politician to Trump.

But he didn't bring ramen to the masses, only to those who are willing and able to pay for it. Maruchan, Cup-o-noodle, etc already brought ramen to the masses. I will grant that he elevated it beyond instant ramen, but as I tried to put forth above, that has more to do with appealing to certain demographics of making things trendy and therefore expensive. Ramen is so much more than the instant crap, but there is no need for it to be a luxury good either.

I think Chang in the past was a truly passionate and dedicated chef to his craft, but now he is more marketing and corporate empire than attentive to the details of his food. Your example seems to actually support my comparison as though most Republicans are not as extreme as Trump, they certainly are not going out of their way to denounce a lot of the crap he says. Also, it was a lot of the demagoguery of the mainstream Republicans that led to Trump. So in many ways, the analogy actually supports what I have said. They are similar in their approach, just different in the extreme to which they will take it. 

[Mark Dedrick]

I like his food and I have enjoyed my meal at every single one of his restaurants I've been to. 

[sheldman]

A dissenting voice to all of this anti-Momofuku stuff.  I think that the ramen there is extremely good.  I also think that the vegetarian ramen is by far the best noodle dish that I have ever had in the DC area, and is innovative as well as absolutely delicious.

Yes, the ramen costs more than it does at other places.  And it is a luxury good, as so much of the food that we discuss here is.  But I think that the prices are absolutely reasonable in comparison to other ramen-centric places in town.

Some ramen places are nothing to write home about.  E.g., Sakuramen in my experience (though I haven't been in more than a year).  I would happily pay several more dollars for very good ramen than for meh ramen. Same as to the Lamen place in Chinatown, though it was better than meh.

Some ramen places are a pain in the ass, at least for people who live where I live.  Toki.  The one time I had ramen there it was very good.  But the rent is surely much lower there than at Momofuku.  A fine place to go if you want pain in the ass experience with very good ramen, but sometimes you just don't, you know?

The ramen at Daikaya is fantastic, to my taste.  I would tend to go there a little more often than I would go to Momofuku, if I were going out for ramen a lot.  And it is what, 4 dollars cheaper?  That is nice.  But what you are paying your $13 or $14 for at Daikaya is the chance to sit in a very loud and cramped place for about twenty minutes, rushed and slurping.  Sometimes I love that experience.  But other times I want to be in a place with somewhat more elbow room, somewhat less rush, and many more things on the menu that I can get instead of or in addition to my ramen (or that my companions would like to get).  Though I am no restaurant economist, I would bet that the difference in rent-per-person's-space, and the difference in time-spent-by-average-diner (--> turnover per day), amply explain the difference in price between Daikaya and Momofuku.

So I find it delicious and do not begrudge the price.

As for Chang as a personality, I find him no more self-aggrandizing than any other chef I've heard a lot about.  So, no big deal.

[Simul Parikh]

11 minutes ago, sheldman said:

A dissenting voice to all of this anti-Momofuku stuff.  I think that the ramen there is extremely good.  I also think that the vegetarian ramen is by far the best noodle dish that I have ever had in the DC area, and is innovative as well as absolutely delicious.

Yes, the ramen costs more than it does at other places.  And it is a luxury good, as so much of the food that we discuss here is.  But I think that the prices are absolutely reasonable in comparison to other ramen-centric places in town.

Some ramen places are nothing to write home about.  E.g., Sakuramen in my experience (though I haven't been in more than a year).  I would happily pay several more dollars for very good ramen than for meh ramen. Same as to the Lamen place in Chinatown, though it was better than meh.

Some ramen places are a pain in the ass, at least for people who live where I live.  Toki.  The one time I had ramen there it was very good.  But the rent is surely much lower there than at Momofuku.  A fine place to go if you want pain in the ass experience with very good ramen, but sometimes you just don't, you know?

The ramen at Daikaya is fantastic, to my taste.  I would tend to go there a little more often than I would go to Momofuku, if I were going out for ramen a lot.  And it is what, 4 dollars cheaper?  That is nice.  But what you are paying your $13 or $14 for at Daikaya is the chance to sit in a very loud and cramped place for about twenty minutes, rushed and slurping.  Sometimes I love that experience.  But other times I want to be in a place with somewhat more elbow room, somewhat less rush, and many more things on the menu that I can get instead of or in addition to my ramen (or that my companions would like to get).  Though I am no restaurant economist, I would bet that the difference in rent-per-person's-space, and the difference in time-spent-by-average-diner (--> turnover per day), amply explain the difference in price between Daikaya and Momofuku.

So I find it delicious and do not begrudge the price.

As for Chang as a personality, I find him no more self-aggrandizing than any other chef I've heard a lot about.  So, no big deal.

100% in agreement with this post, on all points. Try Haikan - I think you'll really like it, very good and not inconvenient or loud.

[sandynva]

19 hours ago, dinoue said:

Chang is trying to do exactly this by promoting ramen as something costing three to four times what one can get in Tokyo. Yes, you can actually get a bowl of ramen in Tokyo for under 400 yen. I didn't try it, but was shocked that it is possible, and Tokyo is not exactly known for reasonable rental rates. Yes, its only a few dollars more than Daikaya, but that few dollars is more than 25% more, that's the thing when you're "elevating" what should be a cheap quick meal in price, but not in the fundamental quality of the food itself. You can't get a 25% increase in quality to justify that increase in price.

 Thank you for elaborating your thoughts a bit more, and helping us understand where you're coming from.   I have not noticed Chang being  in the media a tremendous amount, or doing any more self-promoting than other celebrity chefs, so I can't comment on that.    And I think the idea of comparing the prices here to the prices in the country where the  food is from is an unfair  road to go down, because  The good versions of food we have here will almost always be more expensive than the equally good version from the homeland.  For example I've had a $10 plate of pasta in Italy that was as good as anything I've had at fiola, or  I'd imagine that good pho in Vietnam  is the fraction of the price we pay here.   I don't so imagine that in Tokyo there were more expensive versions of Ramen available Than the 400 yen.  

 What I do take issue with is the idea that Ramen is inherently a cheap food and that one cannot charge more than X dollars for it.  A recurring problem that many "ethnic" restaurants have is that consumers are not willing to pay the same prices for say, Chinese or Indian, food as they are for say French or Italian food  and it's a pet peeve of mine.  So I may have read something into your post that you didn't mean.    But what drives me nuts is the idea that X food, inevitably from a non-European country, somehow isn't worth the same prices as other cuisines.  If you look at it in the abstract, $18 buys you a meal from a celebrity chef, that if you count all the meat used to make the stock and in the bowl  (  I remember seeing a recipe for Changs broth once, and it seemed to use an insane amount of meat) costs as much in ingredients as an entrée at Central or the Daniel bolud place in city center.   Why then is it OK  for Central and DB to charge $20-$25 for their entrées, while Changs 18 is too high? It is my understanding that cassoulet  was not originally a particularly high end or refined dish,  and I know polenta was definitely cheap food, as a friend's Italian parents refuse to eat it because to them it's a food for the poor.  Pizza wasn't a particularly expensive food, and hamburgers until recently weren't fancy food either.   But many  restaurants in the area offer $20 versions of each of these   And I don't hear a general outcry about it being too much to charge for a simple food.  

 Nor do I think the comparison to packaged Ramen is fair-- I love the stuff, and consider myself a bit of a connoisseur of the vegetarian varieties available at the local Asian supermarkets, but  I think the stuff I've had at Momofuku is clearly elevated beyond the stuff I get from H Mart.  And the fact that the packaged stuff exists at a certain price point shouldn't drag down how much the more elevated version should cost.  After all, I believe you can get a Totino's party pizza for a dollar or two in your local frozen section if you're lucky,  but no one cites that and says that the pizzas at etto or Ghibellina are consequently too expensive   

 I'm not  going to defend the pricing on the DC dining scene generally, I think there are far too many places that are really middle level charging top end prices and it seems to be a self perpetuating spiral with prices inching steadily upward. But given that model seems to be dominating now, I don't see why chang is any worse than anyone else or why $18  is too much for Ramen.

[sheldman]

24 minutes ago, sandynva said:

 What I do take issue with is the idea that Ramen is inherently a cheap food and that one cannot charge more than X dollars for it.  A recurring problem that many "ethnic" restaurants have is that consumers are not willing to pay the same prices for say, Chinese or Indian, food as they are for say French or Italian food  and it's a pet peeve of mine.  So I may have read something into your post that you didn't mean.    But what drives me nuts is the idea that X food, inevitably from a non-European country, somehow isn't worth the same prices as other cuisines.

In this vein I note that at Centrolina (where I ate once, and loved it), which is in the same development as Momofuku CCDC, "BUCATINI: suckling pig ragu, tomato & basil" is $ 24

[Simul Parikh]

Same pet peeve I have, and we have discussed it on other threads. It's always going to be like that, until Michelin stars start coming that way. In London, Quilon has 2 stars, people still flock there, and no one complains about the "value" of refined, high end Indian food there. But, the one Michelin starred Indian place in the US, in SF is dogged by the same "value" issue. We are talking a $3 price premium at a place with a celebrity chef that is in the highest rent place in town. Get over it  after you pay your $17 for a few pieces of fried chicken at Hen Quarter ("that you can get for $5 at Blue and White Carry out") or your $55 lobster ("that you can get for $15 at a typical lobster house in Maine")

[DonRocks]

7 hours ago, dinoue said:

But he didn't bring ramen to the masses, only to those who are willing and able to pay for it. Maruchan, Cup-o-noodle, etc already brought ramen to the masses. I will grant that he elevated it beyond instant ramen, but as I tried to put forth above, that has more to do with appealing to certain demographics of making things trendy and therefore expensive. Ramen is so much more than the instant crap, but there is no need for it to be a luxury good either.

I think this paragraph is insightful, and shouldn't be ignored. Ramen was probably one of the most popular food items in the world, pre-Chang, and I believe a more apt comparison than Guy Fieri would be Howard Schultz, who popularized coffee as an everyday-luxury beverage on a national scale.

My post is intended to be purely observational - not critical, and not laudatory: just another way of looking at things.

[Remember: If you don't know where a quoted post came from, click the curly arrow on the top-right of the quoted post.]

2 hours ago, sandynva said:

 What I do take issue with is the idea that Ramen is inherently a cheap food and that one cannot charge more than X dollars for it.  A recurring problem that many "ethnic" restaurants have is that consumers are not willing to pay the same prices for say, Chinese or Indian, food as they are for say French or Italian food  and it's a pet peeve of mine.  So I may have read something into your post that you didn't mean.    But what drives me nuts is the idea that X food, inevitably from a non-European country, somehow isn't worth the same prices as other cuisines.  If you look at it in the abstract, $18 buys you a meal from a celebrity chef, that if you count all the meat used to make the stock and in the bowl  (  I remember seeing a recipe for Changs broth once, and it seemed to use an insane amount of meat) costs as much in ingredients as an entrée at Central or the Daniel bolud place in city center.   Why then is it OK  for Central and DB to charge $20-$25 for their entrées, while Changs 18 is too high? It is my understanding that cassoulet  was not originally a particularly high end or refined dish,  and I know polenta was definitely cheap food, as a friend's Italian parents refuse to eat it because to them it's a food for the poor.  Pizza wasn't a particularly expensive food, and hamburgers until recently weren't fancy food either.   But many  restaurants in the area offer $20 versions of each of these   And I don't hear a general outcry about it being too much to charge for a simple food.  

 Nor do I think the comparison to packaged Ramen is fair-- I love the stuff, and consider myself a bit of a connoisseur of the vegetarian varieties available at the local Asian supermarkets, but  I think the stuff I've had at Momofuku is clearly elevated beyond the stuff I get from H Mart.  And the fact that the packaged stuff exists at a certain price point shouldn't drag down how much the more elevated version should cost.  After all, I believe you can get a Totino's party pizza for a dollar or two in your local frozen section if you're lucky,  but no one cites that and says that the pizzas at etto or Ghibellina are consequently too expensive

The first memory I have of this discussion was when Mark Kuller (rest his soul) raised the issue while in the process of opening Doi Moi (the thread is here, somewhere).

Surely, people like Andy Ricker thought of this carefully before opening Pok Pok, so it wasn't a groundbreaking topic. Nevertheless, Chang did the right thing at the right time, and the "Great Recession of Dec, 2007" forced many other chefs to adapt this stance: Offer childhood comfort food at more upscale prices, in the process lowering their food costs and having "instant demand." 

Regardless of whether it's "fair" to assume that these menu items *should* be inexpensive and for-the-masses, there's no question that they were just that in the past, and it has taken the reinvention of the wheel to (forgive me) roll out the same-named product costing double or triple the price. Again, refer to my Schultz comparison.

2 hours ago, sheldman said:

In this vein I note that at Centrolina (where I ate once, and loved it), which is in the same development as Momofuku CCDC, "BUCATINI: suckling pig ragu, tomato & basil" is $ 24

Perhaps my response says more than your post says, but is $24 supposed to be expensive? Much of the answer would seem to depend upon the size of the dish, the amount of pork used, the care in making the ragu, fresh heirlooms, fresh basil, etc., and the availability of half-portions which could indicate a large portion size.

Remember we're in a bubble. I expounded on this somewhere here recently, and people simply will not pay attention (just as they never do) until the bubble begins to pop.

[Ericandblueboy]

Comparing instant ramen to fresh ramen is absurd.  Or maybe I should've been more specific, that Chang brought fresh ramen to the masses.  Fieri brought his hairdo, sunglasses, and a made for tv persona to the masses.  Let's put it this way, if Noma is a 10, Fieri's flavor town is a 0, Chang is definitely above a 5.  

[jasonc]

22 hours ago, dinoue said:

Sorry to post what might be considered something inflammatory and then not log in again for a few days. I stand by my Fieri comparison because I think what they are fundamentally trying to do is similar. Fieri's based his career on the concept of dive restaurants where one can presumably get good food in an unexpected location, and tending towards more homestyle/stick to your ribs. Chang is trying to do exactly this by promoting ramen as something costing three to four times what one can get in Tokyo. Yes, you can actually get a bowl of ramen in Tokyo for under 400 yen. I didn't try it, but was shocked that it is possible, and Tokyo is not exactly known for reasonable rental rates. Yes, its only a few dollars more than Daikaya, but that few dollars is more than 25% more, that's the thing when you're "elevating" what should be a cheap quick meal in price, but not in the fundamental quality of the food itself. You can't get a 25% increase in quality to justify that increase in price. 

Chang has done some great things with some of his restaurants and in one of his interviews he was pretty emphatic that he didn't want to do the greatest hits, and wanted to be creative at Momofuku DC, but I don't see that happening. He is becoming a caricature of himself, a lot of self promotion, particularly of a specific image he thinks will appeal to his perceived audience. Seriously, the only time I drink watery beer is when it's the happy hour deal for $2 at All Set. He claims to drink it all the time.

In my opinion, Chang has become a caricature of everything he has always claimed to be against in high end dining, but still thinks he speaks for the essence of pure food. The food might not be as bad as Guy Fieri's, but the marketing concept, which includes the location and it's accompanying high rent, driving it is more powerful than the culinary concepts.

Can you just lay your point(s) in a few sentences? I can't for the life of me figure out what bothers you about Momofuku. It's overpriced? You don't like the chef's attitude? Neither? Both?

[dz50]

2 hours ago, sandynva said:

 Thank you for elaborating your thoughts a bit more, and helping us understand where you're coming from.   I have not noticed Chang being  in the media a tremendous amount, or doing any more self-promoting than other celebrity chefs, so I can't comment on that.    And I think the idea of comparing the prices here to the prices in the country where the  food is from is an unfair  road to go down, because  The good versions of food we have here will almost always be more expensive than the equally good version from the homeland.  For example I've had a $10 plate of pasta in Italy that was as good as anything I've had at fiola, or  I'd imagine that good pho in Vietnam  is the fraction of the price we pay here.   I don't so imagine that in Tokyo there were more expensive versions of Ramen available Than the 400 yen.  

 What I do take issue with is the idea that Ramen is inherently a cheap food and that one cannot charge more than X dollars for it.  A recurring problem that many "ethnic" restaurants have is that consumers are not willing to pay the same prices for say, Chinese or Indian, food as they are for say French or Italian food  and it's a pet peeve of mine.  So I may have read something into your post that you didn't mean.    But what drives me nuts is the idea that X food, inevitably from a non-European country, somehow isn't worth the same prices as other cuisines.  If you look at it in the abstract, $18 buys you a meal from a celebrity chef, that if you count all the meat used to make the stock and in the bowl  (  I remember seeing a recipe for Changs broth once, and it seemed to use an insane amount of meat) costs as much in ingredients as an entrée at Central or the Daniel bolud place in city center.   Why then is it OK  for Central and DB to charge $20-$25 for their entrées, while Changs 18 is too high? It is my understanding that cassoulet  was not originally a particularly high end or refined dish,  and I know polenta was definitely cheap food, as a friend's Italian parents refuse to eat it because to them it's a food for the poor.  Pizza wasn't a particularly expensive food, and hamburgers until recently weren't fancy food either.   But many  restaurants in the area offer $20 versions of each of these   And I don't hear a general outcry about it being too much to charge for a simple food.  

 Nor do I think the comparison to packaged Ramen is fair-- I love the stuff, and consider myself a bit of a connoisseur of the vegetarian varieties available at the local Asian supermarkets, but  I think the stuff I've had at Momofuku is clearly elevated beyond the stuff I get from H Mart.  And the fact that the packaged stuff exists at a certain price point shouldn't drag down how much the more elevated version should cost.  After all, I believe you can get a Totino's party pizza for a dollar or two in your local frozen section if you're lucky,  but no one cites that and says that the pizzas at etto or Ghibellina are consequently too expensive   

 I'm not  going to defend the pricing on the DC dining scene generally, I think there are far too many places that are really middle level charging top end prices and it seems to be a self perpetuating spiral with prices inching steadily upward. But given that model seems to be dominating now, I don't see why chang is any worse than anyone else or why $18  is too much for Ramen.

This post is 100% on the money.  I've heard Chang voice these exact same sentiments on a couple of occasions in interviews.

[sheldman]

43 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

Perhaps my response says more than your post says, but is $24 supposed to be expensive? Much of the answer would seem to depend upon the size of the dish, the amount of pork used, the care in making the ragu, fresh heirlooms, fresh basil, etc., and the availability of half-portions which could indicate a large portion size.

No I am by no means complaining about $24 at Centrolina.  Of course it is expensive, in the sense that it is available only to us in the top whatever-percent.  But I did not find the pasta at Centrolina to be inordinately expensive in context, just as I don't find the ramen at Momofuku (a block away in the same development) to be inordinately expensive in context.  I do think that prosperous USA-ians of European origin tend to think of Italian food as being a thing where it's sensible to pay $24 for a very well made wheat-noodle-based dish with a bit of pork and fine vegetables and whatnot at a place catering to the prosperous, but would balk at paying that much for equally well-made ramen with equally good ingredients and skill (whether traditional Japanese, or David Chang 21st century global stoner cuisine).

[Poivrot Farci]

44 minutes ago, sheldman said:

...but would balk at paying that much for equally well-made ramen with equally good ingredients...

Cordially, what makes you or anyone confident that Momofuku (DC at least) is not using commodity ingredients (vegetables, pork/beef/chicken)?  They make no claims otherwise on their menu.  

 

[sheldman]

7 minutes ago, Poivrot Farci said:

Cordially, what makes you or anyone confident that Momofuku (DC at least) is not using commodity ingredients (vegetables, pork/beef/chicken)?  They make no claims otherwise on their menu.  

 

I am no expert and you are.  So I don't feel confident about where they get their stuff, any more than I do about Centrolina.  I see that Momofuku sources some pork product from Benton, but other than that, we (other than insiders) are all pretty much in the dark about everything everywhere.  If you can tell me a place where I can find a delicious main course at $17 with well-sourced ingredients, I am all ears.

[Poivrot Farci]

While Mr. Benton is as charming as a fistful of tomatoes on a summer's day is long, he cures/smokes products but does not raise them; likely getting them from large(r) scale farms that can provide him with a considerable supply and I can not attest to the breed or farming situations, but I'll bet you a ramen they ain't coming from Green Acres. 

As for the produce at H Mart vs Momofuku, I'll bet a pork bun they both get it from the same commodity California farms and if Mr. Change has people convinced otherwise, he's not so much a savvy businessman as customers are easily fooled by high and unfounded expectations.  I hope that someone of Mr. Chang's notoriety and passion is making more conscionable decisions about where he gets his ingredients, and he should state so, as a selling point for those who care.

[Bart]

16 hours ago, Mark Dedrick said:

I like his food and I have enjoyed my meal at every single one of his restaurants I've been to. 

How dare you?!?!?!?

[jasonc]

15 hours ago, sandynva said:

 Thank you for elaborating your thoughts a bit more, and helping us understand where you're coming from.   I have not noticed Chang being  in the media a tremendous amount, or doing any more self-promoting than other celebrity chefs, so I can't comment on that.    And I think the idea of comparing the prices here to the prices in the country where the  food is from is an unfair  road to go down, because  The good versions of food we have here will almost always be more expensive than the equally good version from the homeland.  For example I've had a $10 plate of pasta in Italy that was as good as anything I've had at fiola, or  I'd imagine that good pho in Vietnam  is the fraction of the price we pay here.   I don't so imagine that in Tokyo there were more expensive versions of Ramen available Than the 400 yen.  

 What I do take issue with is the idea that Ramen is inherently a cheap food and that one cannot charge more than X dollars for it.  A recurring problem that many "ethnic" restaurants have is that consumers are not willing to pay the same prices for say, Chinese or Indian, food as they are for say French or Italian food  and it's a pet peeve of mine.  So I may have read something into your post that you didn't mean.    But what drives me nuts is the idea that X food, inevitably from a non-European country, somehow isn't worth the same prices as other cuisines.  If you look at it in the abstract, $18 buys you a meal from a celebrity chef, that if you count all the meat used to make the stock and in the bowl  (  I remember seeing a recipe for Changs broth once, and it seemed to use an insane amount of meat) costs as much in ingredients as an entrée at Central or the Daniel bolud place in city center.   Why then is it OK  for Central and DB to charge $20-$25 for their entrées, while Changs 18 is too high? It is my understanding that cassoulet  was not originally a particularly high end or refined dish,  and I know polenta was definitely cheap food, as a friend's Italian parents refuse to eat it because to them it's a food for the poor.  Pizza wasn't a particularly expensive food, and hamburgers until recently weren't fancy food either.   But many  restaurants in the area offer $20 versions of each of these   And I don't hear a general outcry about it being too much to charge for a simple food.  

 Nor do I think the comparison to packaged Ramen is fair-- I love the stuff, and consider myself a bit of a connoisseur of the vegetarian varieties available at the local Asian supermarkets, but  I think the stuff I've had at Momofuku is clearly elevated beyond the stuff I get from H Mart.  And the fact that the packaged stuff exists at a certain price point shouldn't drag down how much the more elevated version should cost.  After all, I believe you can get a Totino's party pizza for a dollar or two in your local frozen section if you're lucky,  but no one cites that and says that the pizzas at etto or Ghibellina are consequently too expensive   

 I'm not  going to defend the pricing on the DC dining scene generally, I think there are far too many places that are really middle level charging top end prices and it seems to be a self perpetuating spiral with prices inching steadily upward. But given that model seems to be dominating now, I don't see why chang is any worse than anyone else or why $18  is too much for Ramen.

It's funny you mention this, Bourdain mentioned this just yesterday on Reddit(!):

I would like people really to pay more for top-quality Mexican food. I think it's the most undervalued, underappreciated world cuisine with tremendous, tremendous potential. These are in many cases really complex, wonderful sauces; particularly from Oaxaca, for instance, that date back from before Europe. I'm very excited about the possibilities for that cuisine, and I think we should pay more attention to it, learn more about it, and value it more. This is frankly a racist assumption that Mexican food or Indian food should be cheap. That's not right.

 

[Simul Parikh]

I'm glad he said that. I really, really like Bourdain. He's really a hero of the food generation. Anyone see the Obama episode yet?

[Jonathan]

6 hours ago, jasonc said:

I would like people really to pay more for top-quality Mexican food. I think it's the most undervalued, underappreciated world cuisine with tremendous, tremendous potential. These are in many cases really complex, wonderful sauces; particularly from Oaxaca, for instance, that date back from before Europe. I'm very excited about the possibilities for that cuisine, and I think we should pay more attention to it, learn more about it, and value it more. This is frankly a racist assumption that Mexican food or Indian food should be cheap. That's not right.

A restaurant, that uses high quality ingredients, prepares the food with love and care and treats their employees like family, should be able to charge enough money to make the restaurant a nice profit so they can continue operating...whether it be Mexican, ramen, BBQ or haute cuisine.

clearly there is a notion amongst a large swathe of people that certain foods should be cheap always, regardless. My wife and I have written a business plan for a Mexican restaurant where people would have to pay $50 for food on average...and we knew in our heart of hearts that many people would bristle...

the issue I have with the cost of food is not when I know a place treats its staff like family and uses top notch ingredients...its when a place like Rosa Mexicana uses gimmicks to charge $25 for enchiladas or other restaurants use hipster credibility, a loud mouth and some mismatched plateware as an excuse to charge $15 for a plate of carrots or $22 for a chicken thigh. In those cases, I'd much prefer to spend my money at a hole-in-the-wall taqueria or Peruvian chicken joint (and not pay a premium for their rent or their corporate profits) or a place that I know support the causes I care about.

[Bart]

11 minutes ago, Simul Parikh said:

I'm glad he said that. I really, really like Bourdain. He's really a hero of the food generation.

And Poivrot Farci will be here to shit all over him in 3.....2.....1.......

[ktmoomau]

I tried not to write this.  I even avoided this thread because I didn't feel like writing this.  BUT I can't help but also say this- and I don't mean to be petty regarding your overall argument about the value of this restaurant, I think you are perfectly entitled to the opinion that it lacks good value-  Comparing the costs of Ramen in Tokyo to Ramen in DC is fundamentally unfair.  It's like comparing the cost of ANY hamburger in the United States to one restaurant in Tokyo.  Can I find a $12 hamburger in the US... yes, can I find a $2 hamburger in the US yes.  Of course Tokyo will have cheaper ramen- the product is one widely consumed outside the home and has about the same rate of consumption for an average person as we have for a hamburger.  The products are more readily available at higher quality for lower prices because it is a staple of their food culture.  If we consumed ramen like we do hamburgers, would the median price of ramen drop- yes.  But we don't, and the Japanese do.  Also, Japan has a very interesting culture in their cities and has experienced a VAST decline in home cooking, more-so than we have in the US (isn't that shocking, but true).  Therefore, the rise in very cheap eat on the go or grab and go has risen to meet that demand.  And having just gone to Tokyo, I can say, I was expecting the prices, especially on food to be higher than they were, as they were much lower on the whole than DC for an average meal.  (This was a pleasant surprise, as was the price for hotels.)  So I just don't think you can have that type of comparison.  Additionally, restaurants in Tokyo tend to be smaller and focusing on fewer menu items and just have an overall different style than restaurants in the US, and so I think it would be very hard to find a proper comparison.  Also, I didn't have any 400 yen ramen in Japan, I am sure I could have, I can also open a pack of cheap ramen here, most of the good ramen we had in Japan was around 1200 yen.  

 

[DanielK]

P.S. Current exchange rate is about 100 Yen to $1 USD.

[Poivrot Farci]

On 9/21/2016 at 6:45 PM, sandynva said:

 But what drives me nuts is the idea that X food, inevitably from a non-European country, somehow isn't worth the same prices as other cuisines.  

I’ve only been to a few developing countries but have friends/family that travel extensively throughout the 3^rd world's capillaries for humanitarian & environmental reasons and while the foods they experience are said to be delicious and beyond comparison elsewhere, the quality of the ingredients is often on the cusp of awful as a result of pollution, polluted water, and a “sacrifice today for tomorrow” ethos on farming/fishing/hunting.  They don’t raise heirloom goats, premium poultry or grow micro lettuce pubes in those parts of the world and refrigeration at a market is not an option or even a thing.  So the meats (more calories than vegetables) are cooked a long time to destroy anything that might humiliate your insides and it tastes good.  A nutritional intern at the CDC might faint.  Koshari is delicious, but water and uncooked vegetables in most of Egypt might will give even Anthony Bourdain* a 98% chance of hot rain.  In Japan however they pamper produce and massage their cattle with Sumo wrestler reverence.  And Japanese food is not notoriously cheap.

Using better domestic ingredients would warrant and price increase, but there is nothing spectacular with the commodity vegetables coming from the parched west or the pork coming from massive slaughterhouses on the East coast that kill 10,000 pigs a day and never see the day of light.  Know a guy who visited one.  It was not a pleasant experience and he said they don’t let you visit the plant where they kill 15,000 a day.  It is more than probable that the pork in most ramen/phó/whatever comes from any one of them and it does not constitute quality through any prism of debate.

*whom I admire, envy and had a drink with a long time ago after he bought the kitchen a drink.  He’s a top notch globetrotter and hosts a captivating show, minus the 42 crapulous minutes wasted with Sean Brock.

[DonRocks]

[I've been reading this thread with interest. Before anybody pounds out another passionate note, please stop and think about one thing:

You are *both* correct, depending on the situation.

I've read posts on both "sides" of this argument (which is itself a bogus statement, because arguments almost always have more than two sides, and to reduce them to being bilateral is an oversimplification), and I find myself nodding my head in agreement - but the points made are true *only* when falling under a certain set of circumstances. Please try and widen your fields of vision, so you can understand what the other person is saying, rather than focusing on "winning" the debate by tailoring the atmosphere to fit the points you're making.

Cheers and carry on ... Rocks]

[sheldman]

11 hours ago, Poivrot Farci said:

Using better domestic ingredients would warrant and price increase, but there is nothing spectacular with the commodity vegetables coming from the parched west or the pork coming from massive slaughterhouses on the East coast that kill 10,000 pigs a day and never see the day of light.  Know a guy who visited one.  It was not a pleasant experience and he said they don’t let you visit the plant where they kill 15,000 a day.  It is more than probable that the pork in most ramen/phó/whatever comes from any one of them and it does not constitute quality through any prism of debate.

At this point maybe someone should split off a lot of this from the Momofuku thread, because it has gone much broader than any one restaurant and even much broader than restaurant pricing. 

Let us assume that your implication is correct, that Momofuku is not using ingredients that are raised with care and humanity and sustainability - i.e, ingredients that are no better than one can buy at the average grocery store.  Let us even assume that Centrolina is using "quality" ingredients, by contrast, and that it is setting prices reasonably.  So what's the take-away for personal action (as opposed to large-scale political action)?  That only those people should go out to dinner who can afford a $24 plate of pasta with really good non-commodity ingredients, as opposed to a $17 plate of pasta at Momofuku or PF Changs or an $8 plate of crap at Panda Express?  And therefore others should eat at home but should not actually eat unless they can afford vegetables raised on small organic farms?  I don't mean to be pissy, though I guess it sounds that way.  It just seems like you have taken a very important concern about serious problems in large systems, and are making an unclear point about how that impacts restaurants and their customers.

If the point is just "No really, I know that Centrolina does use much better ingredients and that justifies the $7 differential between it and Momofuku on a dish of pasta with some meat in it" then I will defer to your knowledge and completely agree with the limited point.  (But would still add: "Yeah I can't wait to see how people react when somebody offers a $24 bowl of ramen that is made with quality, humane, sustainable-agriculture ingredients."

 

[Marty L.]

1 hour ago, sheldman said:

At this point maybe someone should split off a lot of this from the Momofuku thread, because it has gone much broader than any one restaurant and even much broader than restaurant pricing. 

Let us assume that your implication is correct, that Momofuku is not using ingredients that are raised with care and humanity and sustainability - i.e, ingredients that are no better than one can buy at the average grocery store.  Let us even assume that Centrolina is using "quality" ingredients, by contrast, and that it is setting prices reasonably.  So what's the take-away for personal action (as opposed to large-scale political action)?  That only those people should go out to dinner who can afford a $24 plate of pasta with really good non-commodity ingredients, as opposed to a $17 plate of pasta at Momofuku or PF Changs or an $8 plate of crap at Panda Express?  And therefore others should eat at home but should not actually eat unless they can afford vegetables raised on small organic farms?  I don't mean to be pissy, though I guess it sounds that way.  It just seems like you have taken a very important concern about serious problems in large systems, and are making an unclear point about how that impacts restaurants and their customers.

If the point is just "No really, I know that Centrolina does use much better ingredients and that justifies the $7 differential between it and Momofuku on a dish of pasta with some meat in it" then I will defer to your knowledge and completely agree with the limited point.  (But would still add: "Yeah I can't wait to see how people react when somebody offers a $24 bowl of ramen that is made with quality, humane, sustainable-agriculture ingredients."

I tried that earlier on this thread, Sam!  I, too, would rather the discussion here simply be about whether your (our) $18/tip/tax is well-spent, rather than on whether Chang is ill-motivated or whether he makes more or less profit than others.  And on that question -- is this a good use of your dining dollars? -- it surely does matter that (i) I tend to think of ramen as a quick, affordable meal (usually lunch or very late-night) and (ii) although Momofuku's ramen is perfectly good, it's not better than several other bowls in town that are lower-priced.  Therefore, my modest advice would be, if you're at Momofuku and have a hankering for ramen, by all means order it.  But if you're looking for the best ramen value, without sacrificing on quality, go elsewhere--such as Daikaya, which is still my ramen of choice, and Sam's.  (On the other hand, for instance, I'd never order Bantam King's fried half chicken for $33--because, again, I can get fried chicken that's as good or better for one-third the price.)  

[MichaelBDC]

Brunch begins this weekend. Here's a sneak peek at the menu...

[chefgunshow]

(Softly says to himself) but, I like Sean Brock.

On 9/23/2016 at 2:20 AM, Poivrot Farci said:

*whom I admire, envy and had a drink with a long time ago after he bought the kitchen a drink.  He’s a top notch globetrotter and hosts a captivating show, minus the 42 crapulous minutes wasted with Sean Brock.

 

[sandynva]

Interesting article from wapo:

"Why So Many of America's Sushi Restaurants Are Chinese-Owned" by Ana Swanson on washingtonpost.com

"Some — but not all — of the difference in the price of Japanese and Chinese offerings has to do with food itself. Ray argues that Chinese food has earned a reputation for being cheap in large part because of the historic poverty of the country and its immigrants. “Foods we associate with poor immigrants tend to be cheap, and we are generally not willing to pay a higher price for it,” he says.

He argues that the cuisine’s reputation could change as China’s economy grows and its people become wealthier. Already, more upscale Chinese restaurants are popping up to cater to a new wave of wealthy Chinese migrating to the United States. But others are skeptical that most Americans will ever pay top dollar for Chinese food."