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farmer john

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Curry is the best shooter in history.

Maravich is the best dribbler in history.

Bird is the best passer in history.

Curry is far and away the best shooter I have ever seen.

Maravich is on the fringe of being "before my time" but I have seen no one better in my time.

I'll take Magic over Larry. They are the 2 best I have ever seen though and the game was never better than Magic's Lakers vs Bird's Celtics- greatest team sports rivalry of my lifetime.

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Curry is the best shooter in history.

Maravich is the best dribbler in history.

Bird is the best passer in history.

These lists are subject to much debate:

I find this list of the 15 best passers written in 2010 to be interesting.   Look who populate the bottom positions of "the best":  big men.   Interesting.

I side with Farmer John on best passer.   Also I was entranced by Jason Kidd in his heyday;  the impact of his passing was Magic like, albeit doing it with a different style.  Kidd and Steve Nash's careers overlap a good bit, both were great in this category but they manifested their talents in different ways.

As to Bird it was said that he could get the ball to a teammate in the best position to score.   And he could and did, very often with Kevin McHale.  When Walton joined the Celtics and was healthy that team had Bird, Walton (on the above list) and Dennis Johnson, another great passer.  That team could get the ball to a scorer and they did.  They played against Magic in his heyday as a passer.   OMG:   the ball whizzed around in those series.

For dribblers/ball handlers take a look at these lists:  A list of 25 compiled last year, and a list of 30 written this past Spring.   My, my look who sits at the top of the list of 30.  Interesting.

There are ball handlers/dribblers who can get to the basket and ball handlers such as Maravich or "White Chocolate" or Earl the Pearl, all full of magic in their play.  I prefer the list of 30 if only because it includes some players I watched and they were magical.  I can't comment on best though.  They are all unbelievable.

Shooting is something that is more statistical:  This list of 20 shows # of shots, # of free throws, # of foul shots, # of 3 pt shots;  mades, and percentages.

In the past I'd answer that question with my confident assertion:   BIRD.  He shot all around well and he broke the other team's back with his shooting.   That is what Curry does.  He shoots well....(statistically at the top) and he breaks the other team's back with his shooting, and the Warriors use his "threat" as a shooter to get easier shots for other teammates.

So I'd agree with the choice of Curry.  I'd argue that among great shooters one reason that 3 pt shooting %'s are higher now is simply because they are used more often and thus practiced far more often.

I've been closely watching basketball since the '70's, sometimes obsessively.  Curry's style is different, I'd say evolutionary, and extremely entertaining, and his team is winning.   He is a great.  I hope he stays healthy.

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I should probably split this into a separate thread, but I just wanted to point out that I specifically split "dribbler" and "passer" out from the more generic term "ball-handler."

I can't argue with people who think Magic (who I would put as my #2 passer) was a better ball-handler than Bird because he was better at dribbling through traffic and doling out passes on-the-run - when the Lakers were fast-breaking with Magic carrying the ball (can't you just visualize that in your mind?), the opposing team was doomed. Bird had a spatial perception that I've never seen before or since, not even with Kidd or Nash - the Celtics without Bird simply would not have been a great team (Magic had a *much* better supporting cast - people forget just how good James Worthy was, and even in college Magic had Greg Kelser who was Michigan State's leading scorer and almost surely an all-American; Bird had nobody). The only other thing Bird could really do well *besides* pass was shoot (having both of those skills, which all of these people did, is a lethal combination - one opens up the other). As for Stockton, take away Karl Malone (the NBA's #2 all-time scorer), and Stockton's value is diminished ... or, is it the other way around? There's no way that Malone is #2 all-time without Stockton (the NBA's #1 all-time assist leader). Either way, that was one hell of a symbiotic relationship. In terms of "making your teammates better," Magic, Bird, Nash ... they all did, but nobody more so than Bird, and I think being a great passer is the one thing that does that the most. The beauty of this debate is that people usually like both players, and often have them ranked #1 and #2 in this general category. Damn those were heady times to be an NBA fan.

For dribbling, Curry doesn't make my Top 10 - he was not all that impressive in those warm-up videos (I mean, he *was*, but we're talking "best ever" here). We could also be talking about different things - in a game situation, his quickness certainly doesn't hurt his ability to dribble through traffic, but dribbling is something I'm considering as being "from the shoulders down" - I'm talking more about pure dribbling, which may not be the best way to think about it (I mean, if I was talking about pure shooting - disregarding the game situation - people like Buzzy Braman would have to be considered, as I suspect Braman could have beaten Curry in a game of straight-shooting (no trick shots) H-O-R-S-E). Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, Curry has a longer range than Braman, so that would be his strategy to win - but he'd have to get control of the shot first, and Braman may play the entire game without missing. Anyway, I plead "guilty" to using a mish-mash of criteria for these three categories - I should have been consistent. I'll say that Maravich had the best pure-dribbling *skills*, and I think he's got that by a mile - stealing the ball from Maravich when he's trying to keep it from you would be like trying to take a bone from a dog.

Shooting: "Celtics' Ainge: Stephen Curry, not Larry Bird, is Best Shooter Ever" on foxsports.com, and unless Curry gets hit by a bus or something, I think this is becoming the consensus.

It's interesting that neither Jordan nor Bryant have been mentioned in this conversation.

(In case you can't tell, I'm exhausted today and my brain is mush.)

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Shooter- Curry by a mile- his body control is insane- no matter what his lower body is doing his shoulders square up.

Dribbler- Maravich over Isaiah

Passer- Magic over Bird

Ball Handler- for some reason I find this one the toughest- leaning towards Isaiah though. Phil Ford would be in this conversation were it not for injuries shortening his career. He was the best collegiate ball handler ever.

Rebounder- Moses Malone over Rodman. Barkley was great as well at 6'4" or so.

Dunker- even more subjective than the rest... I'll take Jordan out of many prospects.

Defender- Jordan away from the basket, Olajuwon near. Lebron, Tim Duncan, Kareem, Ewing also deserve mention.

Apologies to Wilt, Bill Russell, and the Big O but they were before my time.

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On 12/13/2015 at 5:07 PM, farmer john said:

Passer- Magic over Bird

I just checked the stats, and Magic averaged 11.2 assists per game; Bird (to my surprise) only averaged 6.3 - that's nowhere near what I would have thought. One thing I wasn't thinking of is: Due to their positions, Magic passed a lot more often than Bird, so that must be a check mark in the Magic column.

Isn't it funny how, if this were a discussion about baseball, nobody would hesitate to talk about Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth, but nobody is bringing up Bob Cousy. I think that, over the decades, really from 1900-on, MLB has done a terrific job keeping the old tied in with the new.

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Defender- Jordan away from the basket, Olajuwon near. Lebron, Tim Duncan, Kareem, Ewing also deserve mention.

Havlicek was a pretty good defender away from the basket. One of the most clutch players ever.

Don't forget Gary "The Glove" Payton.

We can also put in a Shot Blocker category (Dikembe Mutombo, etc.), as well as numerous other categories.

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I just checked the stats, and Magic averaged 11.2 assists per game; Bird (to my surprise) only averaged 6.3 - that's nowhere near what I would have thought. One thing I wasn't thinking of is: Due to their positions, Magic passed a lot more often than Bird, so that must be a check mark in the Magic column.

Both were among the greatest passers.  If not a deceptiveness there is a team makeup and structure, let alone role setting that help to define statistics.

During Magic's first 3 years he was NOT the Laker point guard, that role being occupied by the talented Norm Nixon, who had been Laker point guard for several years prior to Magic.  It was not until Nixon was traded, Magic took over the point, and really had complete control of the ball that his statistics showed over 10 assists a game on average over the remainder of his career.  If Magic had immediately taken over the point guard position his 11.2 average would have been higher.

Bird, on the other hand was always a forward and virtually always played with very competent point guards who had lots of assists and of course many to Bird.  At the very beginning of Bird's NBA career Nate Archibald, an excellent point guard was a teammate.  During the mid to late 80's the point guard was Dennis Johnson, another tremendous point guard and multi talented player.  Simply on a playing basis Bird didn't control the ball like Magic, wasn't called upon in the same role. Sure he had lots fewer assists.

From an entertainment basis the plays represented in the following video, became pretty consistent during the Bird/Johnson era. Those two developed an eye for and an understanding of one another.  Nothing tricky or slick about the passes; it was all teamwork, awareness, eye contact, and lets say teamwork again.

I'd vote for Magic as the greatest passer in the game.  After that I'd stop voting as lots of others are great.  I'm partial to the way Jason Kidd passed as it was so focused up court toward fast breaks and easier baskets, but Kidd could also dish down low and while driving.

Shooting:  I used to say Bird.  He could shoot from afar, mid range and down low.  He hit baskets with men on him.  He extended the game to the 3 point line when 3 pt shooting was in its infancy, and could hit everywhere else on the court.

Curry looks like the best now.  His outside shooting is unmatchable.  He has become deadly on close in shots.  I'd vote for Curry.

Defender:  I watched Russell in the last part of his career.  Of course his reputation preceded him.  I saw on blocks wherein he'd tip the ball to himself.  What a great skill.  I was a  short player but had jumping ability and occasionally could swat balls.  Did I ever tip the ball to myself???   Hell no.  I'd swat that sucker to kingdom come.  Big deal.  The other team gets the ball back.  Too many great defenders continue to do that, and they do it currently.  I have to pass on voting on a defender as I almost always watch from the offensive side and only watch defense when I'm rewinding plays.  There is also tenacious man to man defense, wherein a great defender simply forces an offensive guy to give up the ball, and there is great defense when you overwhelmingly deny a shooter the ball.   I've always found them difficult to assess and only see them in rewatching plays.

I'll pass on a vote.

Rebounding.  I like the offensive rebounding experts.  They add incredible value.  Moses Malone was simply amazing.  Moses got the offensive rebounds and put them back up himself.  Someone of that ilk adds a dimension to a team that nobody else has.  Rodman was great in the 90's.  He was the master of tipping the ball to himself.  That was a huge skill.  Unlike Moses he would give the ball to a teammate for more shots.   Like Farmer John I really enjoyed Barkley.  The ball would be in the paint.  All the "big tall guys" were there, Barkley notably shorter than all of them.  Somebody landed a rebound.  So often it was Barkley, tremendously strong, bulky, overwhelmingly determined.  He was a tremendous jumper for a "big" and had great timing.

But I also saw Wilt.  I think in his younger days he was the best.  Between height, bulkiness, strength and determination, in his younger days when he was somewhat lighter, his legs were stronger, and he could get off quicker.  He grabbed more rebounds than anyone else.  On offensive rebounds he could put them back or pass them off to start over.

Wilt first, Moses second.

Dribbling (or ball handling).  I'm torn.  The Maravich's, White Chocolates, are different than the guys who control the ball, their body, and can outquick anyone.  I thought Iverson was the best at the latter skill.  But I have no "first".   There are many different aspects to the ball handling/ dribbling skill set.

With all these different skill sets where is Jordan???   Well in scoring he ends up being tied with Wilt on a scoring per game basis.

...and he could defend, and he could dribble, and he could pass, and he could grab rebounds, let alone he too had great winning game smarts.  I too am in the Jordan was the best camp.

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Big men post moves:

Two players evoke tremendous admiration, have taught post moves since they retired, and easily define the role and the skill.  Kevin Mchale and Hakeem Olajuwon.  Both great, and quite different in their approaches.  Simply great to watch.

During the 1980's Mchale teamed with Bird to form what still must be the greatest forward tandem in the game.  They were a marvel to watch.  When the Celtics picked up Robert Parish and Mchale in the early 80's through a trade and draft, Bird moved from the inside to the outside, allowing Mchale to team with Parish in the post.  Even with those two "giants" Bird continued as a formidable rebounder, especially on the defensive boards, as he ceded some of his play on the inside.  Mchale and Parish dominated on the inside and Mchale unveiled the greatest post moves the game had seen to that point.

Mchale, such a tricky devil.  He had "every" post move, able to go right and left, over and under defenders:   The following video (sort of longish) shows a variety of his play:  Early in the video there is the jump hook, and plays where he is covered by Kareem.   Then the post moves start popping up; the up and under after the jump hook fake and all the varieties;  all done by a player with a unique scarecrowish kind of physique.   Maybe it was the body type that made him so effective...but here he is at his best and most creative:

Olajuwon, who entered the league around the time Mchale was near his prime,  was dramatically faster, quicker, a better ball handler, and had incredible foot work...better  than anyone he played.  His post moves were so well developed ..frankly nobody got close to blocking his shots after fakes.  At his peak....simply unstoppable.

That peak, btw: might have occurred in the 1995 playoffs; Houston vs San Antonio.  The great Hakeem playing center against the great David Robinson who had won the league MVP that year, both at or near their peaks.

Utterly dominating with plays where he left the "pretty damn quick" (especially quick for a center) Robinson in his dust.  Hakeem at his big game best:

Who had "better" moves???   Pick em.

Now if there was a great team with a big man having those kinds of consistent moves now....that would make for an interesting match up with the current Golden State Warriors.

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An article on Best Finishers in NBA history popped up yesterday.  The topic has been written about many times in the past.  Also this latest article just lists guards.  Interestingly the top five on the list are all playing now.  I wonder if that is a function of the change of rules or the amazing athleticism of some of today's guards, or both.  If only because I am both old and have been watching basketball for a long time I saw the older players.  They also were skilled.  I'll add that imho Westbrook is a freaking human freight train dynamo with astonishing explosiveness.  Today's players are fortunate he is not as bulky as Barkley.  Otherwise I think he'd seriously injure players who get in his way.

Curry is excluded from the list or downgraded, one reason for that for him and others is that he effectively and often shoots from distance.  I'll say one thing for Curry and his finishing though; he has an amazingly high arc down low, puts the ball extraordinarily high on the backboard and very softly and can do so from many different angles.  They go in.  I don't recall that being done so frequently by other guards.  Its simply one more effective shooting/scoring skill he has mastered.  

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On 12/13/2015 at 5:07 PM, farmer john said:

Passer- Magic over Bird

I've been watching some films of Magic, and I have to say, nobody could "thread a needle" like Earvin Johnson - not Larry Bird, not anyone.

Magic could somehow whip the ball through seemingly two-feet of open space, like a baseball, or if he was spinning and running, like a discus. He could also be in mid-air, fully committed, and late in his jump, whip the ball over to a player you (the viewer) didn't even know was open.

He was amazing.

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This is somewhat tangential to "best individual skill sets," but I was just reading about Dave Cowens, and his statistics were *amazing* for a 6'8" center (look at his rebounds per game!)

Cowens is one of only five people in NBA history to lead his team in all five major statistical categories in one season: scoring, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocked shots. (The other four are Scottie Pippen (surprising, right?) Keven Garnett, Lebron James, and just this past season, Giannis Antetokounempo (who is the only player to finish in the Top 20 in the NBA in all five categories in the same season)).  

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On 12/14/2015 at 11:38 AM, DaveO said:

With all these different skill sets where is Jordan???   Well in scoring he ends up being tied with Wilt on a scoring per game basis.

...and he could defend, and he could dribble, and he could pass, and he could grab rebounds, let alone he too had great winning game smarts.  I too am in the Jordan was the best camp.

I've been re-reading through a few of these threads. Now that 2 1/2 years have gone by, I'd have to include LeBron James in the same type of description DaveO used here - I don't think James is "the absolute greatest" at any one basketball skill, but the complete package of his game has vaulted him up there close to Jordan in my eyes. Dave, I'm curious what you think about James in this context, now that time has passed.

I think it is utterly amazing that James almost single-handedly took the somewhat rag-tag Cavaliers to the finals yet again this year - I don't think Cleveland would have even been a .500 team without him (we may get to see this hypothesis tested next season).

My one regret about James this season is that he was *too* selfless - he often (too often, IMO) refused to finish his drives, choosing instead to involve all four other players on the floor, even though they weren't worthy of his unselfish passes. They'd catch a quick pass from a driving James, shoot an open three, then miss, and I think this unselfish aspect of James hurt Cleveland more than it helped them, especially against the Warriors. That said, James seems to be a basketball purist, and maybe he felt that, by damn, no matter what, he was going to get all of his teammates involved, and if it didn't work, then he was going to sink with this ship because basketball is supposed to be a team sport.

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