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Did we really not have a thread on Wilt Chamberlain?

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I'd like to list for everyone Chamberlain's single-season rebounds-per-game average in the playoffs over the course of three different decades:

1959-1960: 25.8
1960-1961: 23.0
1961-1962: 26.6
1963-1964: 25.2
1964-1965: 27.2
1965-1966: 30.2
1966-1967: 29.1
1967-1968: 24.7
1968-1969: 24.7
1969-1970: 22.2 
1970-1971: 20.2
1971-1972: 21.0
1972-1973: 22.5

If I had to name five athletes of the 20th century who had the most imposing statistics, in any sport, Wilt Chamberlain would be on that list.

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I'm convinced there are enough plays of Wilt Chamberlain on film to definitively call him the Greatest of All Time. 

Look how fast he was.

(Feel free to watch the entire video as well.)

People talk about Bill Russell this, and Bill Russell that; the truth is that Chamberlain scored *twice* as many points-per-game as Russell, while maintaining a 54% FG% vis-a-vis Russell's 44%. 

"But what about being a 'team player,' Don?"

Chamberlain out-rebounded Russell, 22.9 to 22.5.

"Yeah, but his teammates?"

Chamberlain averaged more assists than Russell, 4.4 to 4.3.

Chamberlain never once fouled out of a game. There's no comparison.

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21 minutes ago, DaveO said:

Harden is on a hot streak, scoring like Wilt Chamberlain. 

The thing is, just as we need to be careful comparing Russell Westbrook to Oscar Robertson (who averaged a triple-double during his first-FIVE seasons (not each of his first-five seasons, but overall), Wilt Chamberlain averaged 40 points-per-game during his first SIX seasons (and that's with no three-point shot, not that it would have changed anything).

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3 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

The thing is, just as we need to be careful comparing Russell Westbrook to Oscar Robertson (who averaged a triple-double during his first-FIVE seasons (not each of his first-five seasons, but overall), Wilt Chamberlain averaged 40 points-per-game during his first SIX seasons (and that's with no three-point shot, not that it would have changed anything).

True.  I agree about limiting the comparison.  The rest of my post referenced Harden currently as he is in the midst of a great current streak.  We'll see how it evolves as teams try to defense his scoring. 

I don't enjoy his game.  But cripes he is effective.  Last year his team was inches from beating the Warriors in the Playoffs.  After a shaky start his team is going into the playoffs again this season assuming they keep at this pace.  Harden is damn good, I don't like his game, and the two mutually exist.  C'est la vie.

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3 minutes ago, DaveO said:

True.  I agree about limiting the comparison.  The rest of my post referenced Harden currently as he is in the midst of a great current streak.  We'll see how it evolves as teams try to defense his scoring. 

I don't enjoy his game.  But cripes he is effective.  Last year his team was inches from beating the Warriors in the Playoffs.  After a shaky start his team is going into the playoffs again this season assuming they keep at this pace.  Harden is damn good, I don't like his game, and the two mutually exist.  C'est la vie.

I'll go a step beyond your criticisms of Harden and Carmelo Anthony, and say that I don't like what the *game of basketball* has become. Ironically, the three-point shot - which, I originally thought could have changed the game back to how it was in the 1970s, has become this generation's version of the dunk. So, instead of dribbling around, then driving in to dunk, now people dribble around, and step back to hit a three - I don't like it.

It would be interesting to see how Larry Bird would fit into today's game - in theory, he'd  be even better because of the 3-pointer, but I'm not so sure that's true, because he didn't have the personality to hold the ball, trying to get himself open.

Are you familiar with the Grinnell System? I feel like that's where things are headed.

---

Extreme Trivia: Supposedly, Horace Greeley said "Go West, young man" to Josia Grinnell.

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1 hour ago, DonRocks said:

I'll go a step beyond your criticisms of Harden and Carmelo Anthony, and say that I don't like what the *game of basketball* has become. Ironically, the three-point shot - which, I originally thought could have changed the game back to how it was in the 1970s, has become this generation's version of the dunk. So, instead of dribbling around, then driving in to dunk, now people dribble around, and step back to hit a three - I don't like it.

It would be interesting to see how Larry Bird would fit into today's game - in theory, he'd  be even better because of the 3-pointer, but I'm not so sure that's true, because he didn't have the personality to hold the ball, trying to get himself open.

Are you familiar with the Grinnell System? I feel like that's where things are headed.

---

Extreme Trivia: Supposedly, Horace Greeley said "Go West, young man" to Josia Grinnell.

To be specific my "criticisms" of the two players are different.   I never liked Carmelo's game and never thought of him as a game changer or someone who could elevate a team.  Never.  He is a classic great one on one player, with classic moves from the outside, faking, sometimes driving, nice/beautiful shot.  But in that he always slowed down the game, hogged the ball, didn't get other teammates involved I didn't like his game at all.

Aesthetically I don't like Harden's game either.  He is freaking effective....and he DOES get teammates involved.  Big difference.  He is particularly strong at giving out assists, and even when he doesn't get them he is passing the ball when he sees open teammates, even as he is a shooter and ball hog.  He does both.   Harden is EFFECTIVE.   He is a high volume shooter, like Carmelo (probably even higher volume) but he is far more effective:  His true shooting percentage (an advanced NBA shooting stat) is very high hovering at around .600 which is among the best of all-time.  Carmelo's, per NBA stats fall short of the top 250 all time.  Harden draws fouls and adds points at an extremely high rate.  As Carmelo slowly but surely stopped driving he also stopped drawing fouls at a high volume. 

Having said all that...I don't like Harden's game.  But so what.  

Would Bird have been great in this era?  I think he would have.  He was a basketball "genius" and focused on winning.  He would have figured it out in this era;  again my opinion.  So what.

I know nothing about the Grinnell System besides just going to the Wikipedia link.  I do recall Paul Westhead's system which was run, run, run, go, go, go and shoot often and fast.  It too ran up the score.

Man, I played on some teams that pressed and ran all the time.  Boy that tires you out.  A coach does need to substitute players all the time.   Its havoc on the court, but playing it was intense and fun.  Other teams just hate it.  I semi recall watching Westhead's college teams play.  Don't recall if I liked or disliked it.  Frankly old style NBA play, best characterized by the Celtics with Bill Russell, and other teams did a version of this....they ran ran ran and put up tons of shots.  I started watching basketball during that era and that running game grabbed my attention.

In fact one of the reasons why it is not entirely and analytically accurate to compare points per game per player and other stats is that in the old days (say 1960's) there were dramatically more shots.  Hence stats like those of Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, and high scoring averages of players like Elgin Baylor, let alone high rebound totals by Russell and Chamberlain, are all inflated against latter day stats:   Far more shots, higher scores, far more missed shots leading to higher individual rebound totals.

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26 minutes ago, DaveO said:

Harden is EFFECTIVE.   He is a high volume shooter, like Carmelo (probably even higher volume) but he is far more effective:  His true shooting percentage (an advanced NBA shooting stat) is very high hovering at around .600 which is among the best of all-time. 

Harden recently scored 43 points while making 8 shots.

I think it was a young Moses Malone who said, 'Whenever I'm feeling exhausted, I stop and think what the other guy must feel like.'

I would think that Bob Cousy and Bill Russell could play that style of play as well as any two teammates in NBA history.

Coincidentally, I looked earlier today, and Elgin Baylor didn't score quite as many points as I thought he had (he scored plenty; just not quite as many as I thought).

It's going to be interesting to see LeBron James chasing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in a few years (assuming he stays healthy). You *know* he wants it, because he'll never have the championships of a Michael Jordan or a Russell. Jordan might have scored 40,000 points if he hadn't taken four-years off, and it's going to quietly kill him if James does it, but James had the added benefit of coming in out of high school. 

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3 hours ago, DonRocks said:

Harden recently scored 43 points while making 8 shots.

I think it was a young Moses Malone who said, 'Whenever I'm feeling exhausted, I stop and think what the other guy must feel like.'

I would think that Bob Cousy and Bill Russell could play that style of play as well as any two teammates in NBA history.

Coincidentally, I looked earlier today, and Elgin Baylor didn't score quite as many points as I thought he had (he scored plenty; just not quite as many as I thought).

It's going to be interesting to see LeBron James chasing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in a few years (assuming he stays healthy). You *know* he wants it, because he'll never have the championships of a Michael Jordan or a Russell. Jordan might have scored 40,000 points if he hadn't taken four-years off, and it's going to quietly kill him if James does it, but James had the added benefit of coming in out of high school. 

Elgin Baylor has the third highest career average scoring per season 27.4/game

As far as Moses Malone goes...I think in the generally accepted ratings of the all time centers;  Moses is rated below Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq (in no particular order)...but rated above all others.  Moses was a work horse.  Not elegant.  

When asked about competing against those other greats he had supreme confidence.  He asserted he would have gotten them all to foul out against him.  He was great at drawing fouls. 

Good for him.  He was confident....as he should have been.  

Harden--43 points and only 8 baskets?----HOLY CROW!!!

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1 hour ago, DaveO said:

As far as Moses Malone goes...I think in the generally accepted ratings of the all time centers;  Moses is rated below Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq (in no particular order)...but rated above all others.  Moses was a work horse.  Not elegant.  

When asked about competing against those other greats he had supreme confidence.  He asserted he would have gotten them all to foul out against him.  He was great at drawing fouls. 

That would be a tall order against Wilt Chamberlain, who never fouled out of a single game!

Look at that article: Chamberlain had a double-triple-double - I'd never even conceived of such a thing.

Supposedly, he also had a quintuple-double: 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 11 steals, and 24 blocks - if these numbers are true, this must be the greatest individual game in history. This music is annoying, so turn the volume off and enjoy:

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Below is an interesting video commentary with various video.   The commentator is Tommy Hawkins, a former LA Laker and teammate of Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain among others.   When Wilt came to the Lakers controversy ensued.   Interesting insider story.  Who brought Wilt to the Lakers?   Jack Kent Cooke, owner of the Redskins during their Super Bowl days:

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