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DonRocks

Mike Mussina (1968-), Future HOF Pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles and New York Yankees

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On 1/25/2019 at 8:10 AM, Keithstg said:

Mike Mussina played his *entire* Orioles career alongside Cal Ripken - but somehow was the main attraction?! Uhh...

The Orioles were under .500 for the final three years of Mussina's career with them. While his departure didn't help, it's not like the O's weren't already in the "morass of mediocrity", or whatever.

Finally, a very charitable reading of the O's from '97-2012 as mediocre. No single star pitcher, Moose or not, pitching every fifth game, tops, was going to help that mess.

Postscript: And all Showalter did was break a 14 year streak of not making the playoffs, taking them to the playoffs three times in 7 years.

I agree.  Okay... somewhat overstated on my part.  From my experience and from speaking with others; people traveled to Camden Yards to watch Mussina pitch  (okay maybe old farts like myself--Mussina was sort of the reincarnation of Palmer and gave us old farts a sense of bringing back the old O's.)  Cal was certainly the Oriole star.  Mussina "out performed" him in my estimate but Cal was the star, certainly the name star.  I think Mussina gave them more shots at winning more games than anyone else on the team during his stretch and while overlapping with Cal Ripken. 

Your analysis of the O's from the late 90's to when they finally got back in the playoffs is also on target...and the fact that they weren't in the playoffs even while he was there gives that credence.  But you remove him from the team and it gets worse.  You eliminate an ace/stopper--you lose more games. 

On 1/25/2019 at 8:18 AM, Keithstg said:

Manny Machado is the last great Oriole.

I agree.  The sad part is the Orioles didn't/wouldn't/couldn't try and keep him.  It says to me the team can't compete.  They have to play consistently lousy/tank quality baseball to get high draft choices and then hope those draft choices become stars...for a while at least, before the Orioles have to pass on them b/c they become overpriced for Baltimore.     That sucks!!  (Welcome to Kansas City!)

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Two things:

1- re: Camden Yards.  I have seen 3 Yankee games since our new stadium was built.  All 3 have been at CY.  Beautiful place to see a game.  And a statue of Yankee great Babe Ruth outside as a welcome to us New Yawkers.

2- re: Manny Machado.  Great talent, but I think his attitude sucks (at least what I’ve seen of it).  Would’ve been nice if he had more Ripkin in him (or Jeter or Gregarius).  I’m just as happy that we didnt get him.

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8 hours ago, Steve R. said:

Two things:

1- re: Camden Yards.  I have seen 3 Yankee games since our new stadium was built.  All 3 have been at CY.  Beautiful place to see a game.  And a statue of Yankee great Babe Ruth outside as a welcome to us New Yawkers.

2- re: Manny Machado.  Great talent, but I think his attitude sucks (at least what I’ve seen of it).  Would’ve been nice if he had more Ripkin in him (or Jeter or Gregarius).  I’m just as happy that we didnt get him.

Next time you visit CY add the Babe Ruth museum to your itinerary.  Okay, it’s really not scintillating but it will add breadth to your perspective.  

re:  Machado.  I haven’t put weight to Machado’s comments and reputation but he has a remarkable cannon of an arm that is also singularly accurate to first base.  It is going to win some games over a long season and is one of the more awesome sights on a baseball field.  Now whether he is worth $300 million for 10 years or so I don’t know but that rocket launcher is a sight to behold.

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I love this:

"Mike Mussina Opts for Hall of Fame Plaque without Cap Logo" by Jon Meoli on therecord.com

This is the way it should be, it's why Moose should be in the Hall, and it's why he's not a Mount Rushmore Oriole - correct on all counts.

And I love that Cal RIpken, Jr. was the last Oriole to go into the Hall; there won't be another one for the next generation (certainly not Manny Machado, who is a great ballplayer, but not a great Oriole).

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16 hours ago, DonRocks said:

I love this:

"Mike Mussina Opts for Hall of Fame Plaque without Cap Logo" by Jon Meoli on therecord.com

This is the way it should be, it's why Moose should be in the Hall, and it's why he's not a Mount Rushmore Oriole - correct on all counts.

And I love that Cal RIpken, Jr. was the last Oriole to go into the Hall; there won't be another one for the next generation (certainly not Manny Machado, who is a great ballplayer, but not a great Oriole).

It's fascinating to me that (a) this has happened before and (b) Halladay is also going in with no logo. Had no clue, and what are the odds of two in the same class!

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2 hours ago, MC Horoscope said:

I didn't realize Mussina spent half his career in NY! His one-hitters came in Baltimore, IIRC.

One one-hitter, and near perfect-game, was for NY against Boston on national tv.

This aside, IMO if Moose stays in Baltimore he doesn’t make the hall of fame. He needed the big stage and platform that NY afforded.

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54 minutes ago, Keithstg said:

One one-hitter, and near perfect-game, was for NY against Boston on national tv.

This aside, IMO if Moose stays in Baltimore he doesn’t make the hall of fame. He needed the big stage and platform that NY afforded.

Hmm.

Mussina's record when he left Baltimore was 147-71 (.671) - I think I mentioned this above, but no pitcher in MLB history has 100+ more wins than losses, and isn't in the Hall, Assuming Muusina stayed in Baltimore, and won 24 more games than he lost, he would have been +100 - that isn't a Hall Pass (get it?), but it would be setting a very blatant precedent, easily chantable and protestable, if he didn't get in.

Moose's winning percentage at that point was hovering around Top 10 of All-Time; his time in New York dropped him down to about #40. In New York, his record was 123-82 (.600) - you can argue the math, and make the case for his 20-win season putting him over the top, but I think the W-L record would have been enough by itself - Mussina was about five decent seasons away from the Hall when he left the Orioles - this is also around the time the Orioles started their Angelos-induced decline, so maybe Moose couldn't have done it; I think he could have, and I think his having been "The Last Great Career Oriole" would have helped his cause, in a down-home sort of way.

Also wondering if Al Spaulding is the only player in history to be shipped off to another team after back-to-back 50-win seasons.

There's a strange parallel between Mussina-McDonald and Scherzer-Strasburg.

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20 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

Hmm.

Mussina's record when he left Baltimore was 147-71 (.671) - I think I mentioned this above, but no pitcher in MLB history has 100+ more wins than losses, and isn't in the Hall, Assuming Muusina stayed in Baltimore, and won 24 more games than he lost, he would have been +100 - that isn't a Hall Pass (get it?), but it would be setting a very blatant precedent, easily chantable and protestable, if he didn't get in.

Moose's winning percentage at that point was hovering around Top 10 of All-Time; his time in New York dropped him down to about #40. In New York, his record was 123-82 (.600) - you can argue the math, and make the case for his 20-win season putting him over the top, but I think the W-L record would have been enough by itself - Mussina was about five decent seasons away from the Hall when he left the Orioles - this is also around the time the Orioles started their Angelos-induced decline, so maybe Moose couldn't have done it; I think he could have, and I think his having been "The Last Great Career Oriole" would have helped his cause, in a down-home sort of way.

Also wondering if Al Spaulding is the only player in history to be shipped off to another team after back-to-back 50-win seasons.

There's a strange parallel between Mussina-McDonald and Scherzer-Strasburg.

Of course, that assumes that his win-loss and era remained the same through the worst of the Angelos years (they wouldn’t have) and that the bbwa care about career Orioles, writ-large (they don’t). If Moose stays an Oriole, he’s Jack Morris, and eventually gets elected by the veterans committee.

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On 1/24/2019 at 11:56 AM, Kibbee Nayee said:

I say again, Mussina is a Greg Maddux who pitched his entire career in the AL East. Maddux was smart enough to realize that working 8-hitter lineups was far easier than trying to pitch in AL East bandboxes in the steroids era against 9-hitter lineups.

For a variety of reasons, Mussina is one of my favorite pitchers of all-time, but he's nowhere near Maddux level.

The AL East argument doesn't hold water with me when Maddux had to pitch during the steroids era at even bigger hitters' parks in Colorado, Arizona, and Wrigley.  Once you factor in league and park, Mussina's best season (164 ERA+ in 1994) doesn't come close to any of Maddux's best (five times ERA+ over 170, including 260 and 271 in 1994-95).

Plus, Maddux was an above-average hitter for pitchers.  He's comfortably top 10 all-time among SPs, whereas Mussina (while clearly deserving of the HOF) is at best top 25.

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1 hour ago, silentbob said:

For a variety of reasons, Mussina is one of my favorite pitchers of all-time, but he's nowhere near Maddux level.

The AL East argument doesn't hold water with me when Maddux had to pitch during the steroids era at even bigger hitters' parks in Colorado, Arizona, and Wrigley.  Once you factor in league and park, Mussina's best season (164 ERA+ in 1994) doesn't come close to any of Maddux's best (five times ERA+ over 170, including 260 and 271 in 1994-95).

Plus, Maddux was an above-average hitter for pitchers.  He's comfortably top 10 all-time among SPs, whereas Mussina (while clearly deserving of the HOF) is at best top 25.

Maddux always faced 8-hitter lineups, and he knew how to work those lineups so he could play soft-toss with the catcher for 2 or 3 innings of every start. 

He turned down more money from AL teams like the Yankees so he could sign with the Braves when he was a free agent. He feared what 9-hitter lineups would do to his humbers.

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ERA+ already adjusts for whether you pitch in the NL or AL.

ETA: The difference between AL and NL ERAs is quantifiable. On average, pitchers going from AL to NL see their ERAs drop by about .4 runs.  Also, contrary to popular belief, Camden Yards does not rate out as a particularly strong hitters park historically, certainly not in comparison to Coors or Wrigley.

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