Radical Changes in a Sport's Technique - Who Has Equaled Dick Fosbury and his "Fosbury Flop?"

[TedE]

I posted this to FB friends because it's been running through my mind most of the morning: is there a current Olympic discipline, Summer or Winter, that is still awaiting its "Fosbury Flop" moment?  Not an advancement in technology or equipment, but a different approach just to technique that is so advantageous that it revolutionizes the sport completely.  It has to be within the current rules of the discipline, just something that nobody has ever thought of trying before.  With all of the advancements in computer modeling and actual research in the the physics of sports you might think something might still be out there.

The most recent I could think of is maybe ski jumping with the spread ski tips to increase wind resistance and keep the jumper aloft longer, but that was also accompanied by the new style of wide skis so equipment played a role there.  Freestyle cross-country (ski skating) had to be split off from classic cross-country because it is so much faster (something I did not know: ski skating was a technique in use in the early 1900s, but freestyle only became separate events in 1986).

Has anybody tried some weird, asynchronous sweeping pattern in an 8-person rowing boat that puts down more consistent power vs. the short bursts in coordinated sweeping?  You'd have the keep the oars from hitting each other, but maybe?  I used to throw discus and shot put in high school, and it's all about achieving maximum angular momentum on release.  There were a few styles in use for us lowly high school amateurs just learning the sport, but every Olympian uses the same spin technique these days.  A lot of freestyle swimmers have adopted a lopsided, loping stroke coordinated with their breathing, but that's a pretty minor tweak to current technique (it was also famously adopted by Katie Ledecky which may partially explain her dominance; it's less common in the women's events for whatever reason).

[DonRocks]

I assume you saw this - I'm going to try to think about this a little bit.

Pudge Rodriguez throwing people out stealing from a sitting position was novel at the time (I think).

I love the story about Wilt Chamberlain dunking his free throws, and of course there's Abdul-Jabbar's sky hook.

Usain Bolt is able to take one less stride in the 100-meters than any other sprinter in the world.

The Loop in table tennis was developed in the past generation (but it's largely due to high-tech, grip-y rubber) - see also The Snake (the first video is hilarious).

Wayne Gretzky may have been the first person to bounce shots off the goalie when he was behind the goal.

Larry Bird may have been the first person to shoot after being knocked on his rear end (likewise, some baseball infielders can now throw from a seated position).

[MC Horoscope]

Pitchers doing so well in 1968 they made it necessary to lower the mound, largely because of Bob Gibson (and perhaps 30-game winner Denny McLain?) IIRC.

Johnny Bench revolutionized catching by doing it one handed and putting his throwing hand behind his back to avoid foul tips.

[Tweaked]

The Underwater dolphin kick changed swimming to the point that the regulating organization FINA had to make rule changes.

[TedE]

12 hours ago, Tweaked said:

The Underwater dolphin kick changed swimming to the point that the regulating organization FINA had to make rule changes.

Good one!  That's the stuff I was thinking about.  A change so dramatic that given roughly equal abilities an athlete using the new technique will *always* have a sizable advantage over an athlete using an older technique.  Adapt or lose.

Don - I think in all of your examples the advancements were due to the individual athletes' incredible skill or potential.  Not every sprinter can take one less stride per 100, because not everybody has Usain Bolt's leg length.  Chamberlain ... well, let's just say he's an outlier.  Bird was one of the greatest shooters the game has ever seen.  Etc.

The table tennis technique could be a good example.  Was that not possible before the advent of the super sticky rubber compounds?  Was it impossible to do, albeit less effectively, on a "slippier" paddle?

Gretzky's behind the net shot is kinda in between.  Goaltenders had to adjust to the possibility, but the entire game of hockey didn't change fundamentally (I would argue that Gary Gait's leaping-from-behind-the-crease goal changed that sport more dramatically).  The impact was probably even more dramatic in football with the advent of shotgun and spread formations.

Back to Olympic disciplines, one of my friends mentioned Ted Ligety's "swivot" turns, but I don't know enough about skiing to know if that was revolutionary.  I don't get the sense that it's the widespread, default technique in downhill, though.

[DonRocks]

1 hour ago, TedE said:

The table tennis technique could be a good example.  Was that not possible before the advent of the super sticky rubber compounds?  Was it impossible to do, albeit less effectively, on a "slippier" paddle?

No, it's mainly due to the thicker, grippier rubber (note also "speed glue"); no top players use those old sandpaper-covered paddles we had in our basements that produced a "wooden" sound (listen to the sound the ball makes, due to thin rubber, in the 1969 world championships) - my coach, even in his late 40s, would beat these people because of his mighty forehand Loop (people were *trying* to hit this in 1969, but look at how much spin can be imparted now) - it causes the ball to hit the table, and then accelerate like a Hot Wheels car going through a Super Charger. This article sums it up nicely:

May 20, 2015 - "How Technology Has Transformed Table Tennis" by Christopher Tai on sporttechie.com

My examples were all pretty lame, and I tried to come up with them on the spot. I don't know why nobody has ever equated The Loop in table tennis to Nadal's Topspin in tennis: Nobody could hit that with an old-style tennis racket, although Tomas Muster did his best (that entire thread is worth reading).

There's one sort-of "hybrid" exception, however: Even though carbon racket technology has been around for 30 years or so, and people *could* have done this 10-20 years ago, Rafael Nadal was pretty much the first to use a "same-side-of-the-body" forehand follow-through, now known as the "Buggy Whip." (Lots of juniors are now doing this, and going to cause their shoulders long-term harm). One important thing to note: the Buggy Whip in tennis was already being used in table-tennis: Watch the video again about the table-tennis Forehand Loop: basically the *exact same follow-through*, extended from table-tennis to tennis.

Bottom line: If table-tennis goes back to "non-sponge paddles," and tennis goes back to "wooden rackets," then the games revert to what they were in 1970 - rest assured, the World Champions in both sports in 1970 were *phenomenal* athletes; just *different* athletes. Compare this rally between Borg and Vilas with this rally between Nadal and Federer (this is a perfect example of Nadal using the "Buggy Whip" forehand (watch Nadal's follow-through; not the ball)).

I do think MC Horoscope's example about Bench is more what you had in mind, because that was a change in technique, not brought on by technology at all.

I actually was going to say something about "turns in swimming," but my memory was foggy, and I thought it had something to do with the actual turn (the way people pushed off the wall), rather than the "dolphin kick" *after* the turn, so I rested mum. <--- That's what happens when you put your mother to bed.

[Tweaked]

2 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

I actually was going to say something about "turns in swimming," but my memory was foggy, and I thought it had something to do with the actual turn (the way people pushed off the wall), rather than the "dolphin kick" *after* the turn, so I rested mum. <--- That's what happens when you put your mother to bed.

I knew about the dolphin kick because I remember when it started to be more widely used.  However, while trying to find info on the kick there were also references to the turns swimmers use, so I would also say that is legit innovation.  Swimsuit technology has also played a big role in swimming.

I swear this is all I know about swimming!  I'm mean, I don't even really like swimming!    

[DonRocks]

48 minutes ago, Tweaked said:

 I'm mean, I don't even really like swimming!    

Just because you don't like swimming, doesn't make you mean.

I'm going to hell one day.

[TedE]

18 hours ago, DonRocks said:

I assume you saw this - I'm going to try to think about this a little bit.

This question was prompted watching the cross country skiing coverage, and I purposefully did not mention any sports that have seen developments in new elements of the sport. I would include figure skating jumps and whatever new tricks aerial skiers and snowboarders keep coming up with.  Those advance the difficulty of the sport, but don't really change how it's competed.  I see them as natural evolutions made available by advancements in training and athleticism: you have to have a certain level of talent to land a triple, and have to progress to another level in order to attempt a quad.  I'm sure somebody will eventually land a quintuple, just like somebody will eventually break 2 hours in the marathon.  Closer would be: is there a brand new figure skating jump style that nobody has attempted yet?  But that is still somebody coming up with a new "trick".  Given the way the judging goes (a totally different topic to debate!) I guess you could argue that everybody would then have to learn that new trick just to prove they could do one.

[DonRocks]

2 hours ago, TedE said:

This question was prompted watching the cross country skiing coverage, and I purposefully did not mention any sports that have seen developments in new elements of the sport. I would include figure skating jumps and whatever new tricks aerial skiers and snowboarders keep coming up with.  Those advance the difficulty of the sport, but don't really change how it's competed.  I see them as natural evolutions made available by advancements in training and athleticism: you have to have a certain level of talent to land a triple, and have to progress to another level in order to attempt a quad.  I'm sure somebody will eventually land a quintuple, just like somebody will eventually break 2 hours in the marathon.  Closer would be: is there a brand new figure skating jump style that nobody has attempted yet?  But that is still somebody coming up with a new "trick".  Given the way the judging goes (a totally different topic to debate!) I guess you could argue that everybody would then have to learn that new trick just to prove they could do one.

Given the physics of skating, there are *absolutely* jumps that haven't yet been done: Look at half-pipe, mountain biking, snowboarding, and skateboarding for your examples - the craziest kids are the ones who will be the inspiration for figure skaters to be standing on the podium in the future.

In parallel: Nadal's Buggy Whip forehand was certainly derived from the Loop in table-tennis, even if by coincidence.

[TedE]

19 hours ago, DonRocks said:

Given the physics of skating, there are *absolutely* jumps that haven't yet been done: Look at half-pipe, mountain biking, snowboarding, and skateboarding for your examples - the craziest kids are the ones who will be the inspiration for figure skaters to be standing on the podium in the future.

In parallel: Nadal's Buggy Whip forehand was certainly derived from the Loop in table-tennis, even if by coincidence.

You would think that somebody would have come up with another one by now.  I guess we could count the backflip, but that was quickly outlawed in competition.  But why hasn't somebody tried an aerial cartwheel (cartwheel with no hands)?  That seems like something that could be developed as the land based trick is pretty standard.  Think of all the crazy things you see in gymnastics floor routines that aren't technically flips.  Are they also outlawed akin to backflips?  Skating seems to be very conservative when it comes to pushing the envelope, and I think it would be much more watchable with more innovation (IMHO of course, I know people love it.  I change the channel to a different competition unless NBC has decided it's the only thing we're allowed to watch that night).  But when your success hinges on basically perfecting the same routine for half a decade or more straight I guess there's not much need to break boundaries.

[DonRocks]

1 hour ago, TedE said:

I guess we could count the backflip, but that was quickly outlawed in competition.  

An interesting piece of trivia: Karen (my late wife) skated with Surya Bonaly (who is from Nice). That's the "enhanced version"; the "real version" is that Karen was a teenager (when I knew her, she could do a single Axel without too much difficulty). One day, she said, some tiny little girl came in on skates with her mother - I was told that even as a pre-teen, Bonaly had obvious natural gifts - her thighs were ridiculously strong -  and so they got to skate in the same rink for a few years. Apparently, everybody at that rink sort-of "knew" that Bonaly had a bright future.

[DonRocks]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:00 AM, DonRocks said:

An interesting piece of trivia: Karen (my late wife) skated with Surya Bonaly (who is from Nice). That's the "enhanced version"; the "real version" is that Karen was a teenager (when I knew her, she could do a single Axel without too much difficulty). One day, she said, some tiny little girl came in on skates with her mother - I was told that even as a pre-teen, Bonaly had obvious natural gifts - her thighs were ridiculously strong -  and so they got to skate in the same rink for a few years. Apparently, everybody at that rink sort-of "knew" that Bonaly had a bright future.

Horseshit on Tonya Harding and her Triple Axel - the film, "I, Tonya," deludes the viewer into thinking that she made history by doing this jump in 1991; she wasn't - fully *3 years before*, in 1988, the Japanese skater, Midori Ito, landed the jump. If you watch (and listen) to the film *carefully*, you'll see that this "history-making" jump was executed 3-years after Ito landed it.

 Now, in terms of whether-or-not "athletic" figure skating - which encompasses Harding being 'the first' female ever to land a triple Axel - is more important than traditional, "ballerina"-type figure skating ... that's another topic entirely. But the first-ever triple-Axel was landed by Midori Itro; not Tonya Harding.