Book Club

[jpschust]

We brought up the possibility of a a new place for the next meeting, but the group picked BP. It is not my favorite pizza, but they do have a very good selection of beers. Nothing says that it has to be a beer place so toss out some suggestions folks and we can decide at the next meeting when we pick the next book. All we need is a place with space that is flexible with seating that allows for a good discussion.

I'll attempt to not get bogged down by work this time. Ordering the book from amazon today- I have amazon prime if anyone else wants in on my order to not pay shipping. You can just pay me back when you pick up the book. I live in Adams Morgan or you can pick up from my work in Reston, VA.

[mdt]

Book: How to Read a French Fry by Russ Parsons

Date: Tuesday April 17th

Place: Birreria Paradiso (meet at the bar downstairs)

Time: 630p

As usual, PM me if interested in attending.

Bump! The next book and location will be decided at the meeting.

[jpschust]

Does anyone have their copy near by, by chance? If so, can you tell me if the author attributes that whole section on "how to read a french fry" to anyone else or if he claims it as his own?

[Pat]

Does anyone have their copy near by, by chance? If so, can you tell me if the author attributes that whole section on "how to read a french fry" to anyone else or if he claims it as his own?

Michael Blumenthal of Rutgers University?

[jpschust]

Michael Blumenthal of Rutgers University?

Is that who he claims the sourcing to?

[Pat]

Is that who he claims the sourcing to?

He names a large number of people as sources for scientific information, but that's the person he specifies as the one "who handed me practically everything I needed for the frying chapter and, indirectly, gave me the title for this book." [p. vii]

[jpschust]

He names a large number of people as sources for scientific information, but that's the person he specifies as the one "who handed me practically everything I needed for the frying chapter and, indirectly, gave me the title for this book." [p. vii]

I'm reading Herve This' book right now (called Mollecular Gastronomy) and he includes a passage on frying that is almost word for word what I remember reading in "How To Read a French Fry" and it's cited to the book Physiology of Taste, Meditation 7, section 48 by Brillat-Savarin translated by MFK Fisher. If you all want I can retype it but I can't do it untillater. It says exactly what Parsons says, at points seeming very close to word for word and only using different examples (bread instead of a french fry for example). I know that Brillat Savarin didn't plagarize this from Parsons since Physiology of Taste was written in 1825

[Pat]

His acknowledgments are chock-full of source names, but I don't see Brillat Savarin. Given how many people he acknowledges (I just picked the name that seemed most obvious for what you were asking instead of typing them all), it's possible some of this information could have gone through many hands over that time. He cites a food science writer from the 1930s named Belle Lowe as well as Margaret McWilliams as helpful older sources. (He divides the 3 main sources into cooks, food writers, and scientists.)

ETA: There aren't many proper names in the index and there's no bibliography, so I could be missing something in my scanning through, but I don't see Fisher mentioned either.

[Heather]

If any of you are members of Mouthfuls you could ask Russ about the chapter yourself. The book has been discussed in depth for several years now, Jonothan, and I think you're the first I've read to accuse him of plagiarism.

[jpschust]

His acknowledgments are chock-full of source names, but I don't see Brillat Savarin. Given how many people he acknowledges (I just picked the name that seemed most obvious for what you were asking instead of typing them all), it's possible some of this information could have gone through many hands over that time. He cites a food science writer from the 1930s named Belle Lowe as well as Margaret McWilliams as helpful older sources. (He divides the 3 main sources into cooks, food writers, and scientists.)

It just seems odd to me that he wouldn't directly cite an author whose section is the core focus of the book.

Here was an example that I found remarkably similar from the Brillat-Savarin piece in This' book:

For instance, you could dip your finger with impunity into boiling spirits-of-wine, but you would pull it out as fast as you could from boiling brandy, faster yet if it was water, and a rapid immersion in boiling oil would give you a cruel injury, for oil can become at least three times as hot as plain water.

Now I don't have my book sitting in front of me- but that section of Brillat-Savarin's piece strikes me as very very close to what we were seeing in How To Read a French Fry.

[jpschust]

If any of you are members of Mouthfuls you could ask Russ about the chapter yourself. The book has been discussed in depth for several years now, Jonothan, and I think you're the first I've read to accuse him of plagiarism.

Do you know what his SN is on there? I'd love to ask him. I should step back a moment and say that this might be a misperception of mine, but these passages seem strikingly similar to me.

[Heather]

He's Russ Parsons over there. I just sent him a PM alerting him to this thread, and asking if he's a member here. I don't think he is. He's not shy about participating online, so maybe he'd be willing to come and chat about it here.

[Pat]

It just seems odd to me that he wouldn't directly cite an author whose section is the core focus of the book.

Here was an example that I found remarkably similar from the Brillat-Savarin piece in This' book:

For instance, you could dip your finger with impunity into boiling spirits-of-wine, but you would pull it out as fast as you could from boiling brandy, faster yet if it was water, and a rapid immersion in boiling oil would give you a cruel injury, for oil can become at least three times as hot as plain water.

Now I don't have my book sitting in front of me- but that section of Brillat-Savarin's piece strikes me as very very close to what we were seeing in How To Read a French Fry.

If we're talking about an original source that's close to 200 years old, that example could have been used over and over in chemistry classes, culinary training, and other written and oral materials during that time. It might be disseminated far enough that it's essentially common knowledge.

[jpschust]

If we're talking about an original source that's close to 200 years old, that example could have been used over and over in chemistry classes, culinary training, and other written and oral materials during that time. It might be disseminated far enough that it's essentially common knowledge.

That may very well be, and I very much hope the case is something similar to that, but the structure, the phrasing and the examples seem very very close to me.

Edit to add: Just to be very very clear, I am not accusing Parsons of plagarizing, but I'd like to reconcile these two authors and figure out what's going on here. Again I don't want to make that accusation- I'm very sensitive to it.

[jpschust]

FYI- I got a very fast well written response from Parsons that is pasted here with his permission as you will see. I'm satisfied with it, but it points out the coincidence well.

Hi Jonathon,

I'm replying to you personally, but you can feel free to post this to the board (I'm not a member and since it does seem so DC-centric, there doesn't seem to be much sense long-term in signing up.

This is just the weirdest thing and this is the first time I've heard about it. The coincidence between "French Fry" and "Brillat-Savarin" is amazing (as is the coincidence between This and "French Fry"), but I can guarantee you that there was no plagiarism involved, at least not consciously. Of course I read that book many years ago, as has almost every food writer (though, in another coincidence, I'd just posted yesterday on E-Gullet that I had skipped most of the technical parts because a) it was such slow going and most of the concepts were outdated! Maybe I'd better go back and read again). Is it possible that something I'd read 10 to 15 years before stuck in my brain? Certainly, but I tend to think not.

On the other hand, maybe it's not so surprising, as the reflection that one can stick a finger in boiling water but not in hot oil is surely one that every cook has shared at one point or another, usually following a period of extended cursing.

As proof of my innocence, I will offer up the single most embarrassing thing that happened with "French Fry": In trying to explain in that same chapter why oil heats hotter than water, I had mumbled on about electron bonds, etc. and my editor asked for a cleaner explanation, maybe a clearer word. In grabbing for it, I offered "denser" (bound tighter, right?), without even thinking that the word had a specific chemical definition and that what I was then saying was that oil was denser than water, which is patently untrue as every schoolkid knows (and, seemingly, most e-mailed me about).

To clear up Blumenthal's contribution, I had several extended interviews with him while I was working on a story for the Los Angeles Times. Those interviews and the texts he pointed me to were key in piquing my interest in frying and to my reaching an understanding of how frying works. But he did not write any of that chapter and it certainly is not based directly on anything he wrote.

I'm grateful for your interest in "French Fry". It is truly astonishing to me that it is still in print six years after publication (most cookbooks fade within the season). I would also like to make clear that what I was striving for with the book was not a food science text, but a cookbook that borrowed from science to explain cooking techniques. My model for the book was much closer to Beard's "Theory and Practice" than to Hal McGee (and certainly Brillat-Savarin).

I can only hope for similar success for my next book "How to Pick a Peach", which will be out next month (and just got a starred review from Publisher's Weekly … forgive the self-promotion).

Best,

rp

[crackers]

Bump! The next book and location will be decided at the meeting.

Is anyone coming besides me, or am I going to be sitting there mumbling to myself?

[jpschust]

Is anyone coming besides me, or am I going to be sitting there mumbling to myself?

I know mdt is coming and I think I'll be there as well.

[porcupine]

Is anyone coming besides me, or am I going to be sitting there mumbling to myself?

I'll be there. Mr P was kind enough to buy me the book yesterday. It's a quick read and I had a lot of sitting around and waiting today, so I'm halfway though already.

[Pat]

I will also be there.

[jpschust]

crap, now i'm out. GMAT tutoring calls more than my love of beer and discussing food science.

[zoramargolis]

I just finished a terrific book, _Alice Waters and Chez Panisse, the Romantic, Impractical, Often Eccentric, Ultimately Brilliant Making of a Food Revolution_ by Thomas McNamee.

On the back cover is a blurb from Danny Meyer: "In his landmark book on Alice Waters and Chez Panisse, Tom McNamee has written compelling layers of complex flavor and rich texture to explain a topic that has to be the cornerstone of any serious discussion of why we eat the way we do in America. <snip> and it explains in black, white and lots of gray how Chez Panisse came to mean so much more than just about any other restaurant in this country."

You may want to put this at or near the top of your list.

[crackers]

Our gathering tonight is being postponed until we can find a date that works better.

[RaisaB]

Our gathering tonight is being postponed until we can find a date that works better.

I only work a couple of times a month, and the meetings seem to be on those days! So, when you reschedule, (I am subcribing to this subject as I don't read everything on board), post it quick!

[jpschust]

Our gathering tonight is being postponed until we can find a date that works better.

Thank you so much for postponing this. I'd really still like to come to this.