"Michelin Man"

[DonRocks]

(I don't suppose this would be a good time or place to discuss Dan Savage's essay on page 48, which expounds on that little-known Mexican foodstuff, the shemale)

[bilrus]

(I don't suppose this would be a good time or place to discuss Dan Savage's essay on page 48, which expounds on that little-known Mexican foodstuff, the shemale)

It has been a loooong week here on dr.com hasn't it?

[RaisaB]

I for one am thrilled JoeH is so controversial! I was wondering what happened to all of you!

This must have been great for membership here!

(oneday I will learn to type)

Edited August 12, 2005 by RaisaB

[CrescentFresh]

I for one am thrilled JoeH is so controversial! I was wondering what happened to all of you!

This must have been great for membership here!

(oneday I will learn to type)

Glad you found us. Still making the Paris runs? Tasted any good cheese lately?

[Robert Rymarz]

I have shared a few emails with Joe H. in the past and always found him to be a complete gentleman. I often searched out his post on Chowhound, and had no idea what happened to him. But yet it is not unusual for these things to go over my head unnoticed.

Joes personality may come across strong to some, but I truly believe he means no harm. And unfortunately on many food boards how ones personality is interpreted holds more weight than there knowledge of food.

[Joe H]

Is this the Robert from New York state, who once was in the kitchen at the Inn at Little Washington?

Edited August 13, 2005 by Joe H

[Robert Rymarz]

Is this the Robert from New York state, who once was in the kitchen at the Inn at Little Washington?

Hi Joe. That would be me.

[Joe H]

I cannot tell you how good it is to hear from you. Welcome!!!! I will pour a glass of wine in a few minutes and toast you. I have missed hearing from you.

[jasonc]

Great article, not to mention pretty accurate (barring that half price thing), and isn't it awesome - and slightly scary - that the interworkings of internet message boards has merited its own newspaper article?

About JoeH, I have always thought he was a good guy. He ruffles feathers and doesn't back down, two characteristics I very much respect. I actually got into trouble for defending him on egullet a while back (not with don).

Edited August 14, 2005 by jasonc

[tanabutler]

(I don't suppose this would be a good time or place to discuss Dan Savage's essay on page 48, which expounds on that little-known Mexican foodstuff, the shemale)

You owe me a glass of wine, you bastard. And a new keyboard.

[ScotteeM]

I have to say that I found THIS site by following the link from Chowhounds to Kliman's article.

I was deeply troubled by the post that I think Joe was responding to in his Last Post. His last post was extremely eloquent , well-written, and well-reasoned. The Flame that occurred on the Chowhounds site, to which I think he was responding, was not.

I actually entered a response to something on that thread, and I see that my post was also deleted. Yet the original, offending post remains.

Oh well. I have to say that I'm glad I am here, and I am very glad that Joe H is here, too.

I'm looking forward to fruitful and positive (not necessarily always complimentary) discourse.

[bilrus]

I'm looking forward to fruitful and positive (not necessarily always complimentary) discourse.

Then you won't be disappointed.

[Sthitch]

I have to say that I found THIS site by following the link from Chowhounds to Kliman's article.

I was deeply troubled by the post that I think Joe was responding to in his Last Post.  His last post was extremely eloquent , well-written, and well-reasoned.  The Flame that occurred on the Chowhounds site, to which I think he was responding, was not.

I actually entered a response to something on that thread, and I see that my post was also deleted.  Yet the original, offending post remains.

Oh well.  I have to say that I'm glad I am here, and I am very glad that Joe H is here, too.

I'm looking forward to fruitful and positive (not necessarily always complimentary) discourse.

I had my response to that same post deleted, and left chowhound that day, and have not been back since. I find that the discourse here much better than the ananoumous posts at the other site.

[RaisaB]

I have a question for Mr Rockwell. What is this boards policy on deleting posts? (Besides the obvious, libel, slander and those of a personal nature).or is it already on here somewhere? I certainly became p/o'd on a certain board when my factual posts were deleted by the substitute moderator and actually never felt quite the same about that board again....

Edited to say "Never Mind" I found your policy on deleting posts! I have to tell you Mr Rockwell, I haven't personally met you. but I love the way your mind works!

Edited August 15, 2005 by RaisaB

[dinwiddie]

I for one am delighted that JoeH has decided to come to this board. I always read what he wrote on chowhound and looked forward to his posts. I did not agree with him on a lot of things, but one area in which we are definitely in agreement is that DC is a great dining town.

Joe definitely excited comment by posters on chowhound and egullet. And in fact, he was occasionally the topic of comments on vinocellar.com and the Wine Spectator forums that deal with dining. Anybody who read his posts on a regular basis had an opinion about him, I never met anyone who was neutral in their opinion either.

I would also add that he definitely likes wine, so I would be glad to invite him to join the DC Crü for a dinner sometime. (Boy wouldn't that be interesting considering the opinion some of the Crü have of him?)

[Pappy]

I was a very regular poster on C-hound for many years. Through C-hound, I've met many others who share my passion for food and dining (not always the same thing), including Joe. I dare say he and I and our wives have become good friends. To repeat what many have already said, Joe H the man is much, much more sincere and gracious than some of his posts may hint at.

I've pretty much stopped posting there. It is not so much that I disagree with the need for some moderation. Perhaps, it is as someone mentioned here, that the posters on C-hound are allowed to remain so anonymous and turnover is so high. It makes a real sense of community and trust much more difficult.

I have been lurking on this Rockwell board for months, watching its development. I am hopeful that Don can keep that delicate balance of soliciting any and all opinions, while keeping the discourse polite and respectful.

I look forward to following more closely, participating more often, and meeting some of you in the near future.

-Pappy

[Joe H]

I sincerely thank everyone for their appreciative thoughts. A number have been touching and confirmed my having wanted to share so many experiences with many that I met on CH. I never knew that I was discussed on wine forums. I only remember a handful of posts on CH where I talked about particular bargains that I thought people might want to take advantage of. I don't remember any real excessive hyperbole like some of my posts might have intentionally featured (!).

In fact Shitch is a person who I absolutely revere for his knowledge and experience as well as his ability to maintain a truly awesome level to pull a "daily" wine from. Thanks, Dinwiddie, for the invite. Much appreciated. By the way is your's the same group that John B. is part of? He helped me with the Maestro and Black Salt dinners with a number of his friends coming from his D. C. wine group. John also has an annual open house for 150+ on New Year's Day where he and Janet cook for three days leading up to it. He is an awesome chef and responsible for a fantastic feijoda.

And, on Saturday night in Oklahoma City, for a good friend's 50th birthday celebration we opened a bottle of 1863 Blandy's Malvasia Solera Madeira which I thought was a remarkably full bodied yet surprisingly alcoholic nectar (17%). My wife, who prefers a White Russian, thought it was responsible for a later hoarseness and regretted even having her lips near the glass!

Zora you would have loved it!

[Joe H]

I couldn't help but think of my above "last post" when I saw a magazine this weekend (Food and Wine?) featuring America's five best restaurant cities: NY, SF, CHI, LV and New Orleans. I just can't help but believe that this city does not promote itself as it could. While flying to Oklahoma City I had a connecting flight through Chicago. The current month's issue of Chicago magazine has the "Best of Chicago." Just reading through various lists showed a pride, almost a lust by the writers for their own city's restaurants. This month's Philadelphia magazine also has the "Best of" Philly. The article that stood out was a particularly well written one were the writer was dispatched to ten cities around the country looking for a cheesesteak that might equal "what could be found at home." The same kind of passion and pride was evident in this. No, D. C. wasnt one of the cities he was sent to. The two best cheesesteaks by the way were in Milwaukee and Clearwater. Complimenting this article was a feature noting the best cheesesteaks in each of the surrounding areas of the Philly metro area. While I've seen features/articles/essays here I don't remember anything expressing quite this level of local passion, certainly not since Phyllis Richman or a feature about Horace and Dickey's in the Sunday Post magazine a number of years ago. Both of these seemed to share the same kind of passion that Calvin Trilling wrote about Kansas City with. (Of course Arthur Bryant's still fries hand cut fresh potatoes in pure lard and D. C. in the '50's was famous for fish sandwiches on Maine Avenue, particularly a shack called Benny's, that did the exact same gloriously greasy thing. Benny's was also, for me as a kid, a memory I still have with Krispy Kreme at Georgia and East West for dessert.)

With crab houses like Cantler's, the Drift Inn, Stoney's and Popes Creek I also couldn't help but wonder why Mimi Sheraton chose Virginia Beach and the Tidwater area as her location to write about Chesapeake Bay crabs in this weekend's New York Times?

We've come a long way yet we still have further to go. I think it's the passion found in New Orleans, Chicago, San Francisco and New York which help elevate them along with the food. Somehow there's an image that chicken fried in a cast iron pan in Opelousas will taste better than the same chicken fried in the same pan on U street. Or that crabs taste better sitting at a picnic table in Baltimore than they do sitting at a picnic table on the water in St. Mary's or Calvert County or Woodbridge.

Or that Tex Mex food is better in the Southwest than it is in D. C. It may be but I had some pretty mediocre Tex-Mex yesterday at what was suppose to be Oklahoma City's best. It actually made me long for Rio Grande (yes, I know it's Uncle Julio's in Dallas) or Taqueria Poblano.

I just believe we are better than we give ourselves credit for.

[FunnyJohn]

It's actually in Bon Appetit -- I was wondering when it would engender some discussion on this Board

Edited to include my :

What you find in the aforementioned article is not so much a discussion of foods unique to these iconic 5 cities, but the fact that they all host numerous high quality restaurants which make nice material for food critics to feature. The issue of the magazine also has a little index of I think 180 "fine restaurants" around the country by region. With all such lists one notes the same places get mentioned over and over again in publication to publication -- which to me bespeaks a little editorial laziness. Although in fairness, magazines such as BA, Gourment, F & W do a good job writing about new restaurants they tend to focus on NYC, LA, Paris, and for some variety places like Vegas and Boston.

If Washington could generate its own publication devoted to food, dining and wine, that could secure a national readership ... voila, we would be on the map! I'll save that project for retirement, but if anyone wants to get going on it, allez-y!

Edited August 15, 2005 by FunnyJohn

[bilrus]

But doesn't the constant pumping up the hometown and comparing your city to somewhere else end up making a city sound second-rate? Like they are looking for validation?

[Joe H]

Perhaps it's not the constant pumping up so much as it's just taking for granted that some things here are simply either the best or as good as anywhere else in America. Specifically: crabs, pollo a la brasa (and other central American dishes), Ethiopean, Korean, etc. Right now John B. is hosting weekly Tuesday gatherings at TemptAsian, leading a communal search with as many as 14 at the table through their menu. Point is that this place is worth the search.

And, no, I did not mention Maestro, the Lab (or the Grill) or Citronelle but they would "round" this out, as would several others.

Addendum: Mimi Sheraton, to establish her own credibility for crab eating (as if she needs to do this!) mentions the eight or nine cities around the world where she has eaten crab before proclaiming the Chesapeake Bay as the home of the best in her New York Times article this weekend.

Edited August 15, 2005 by Joe H

[Barbara]

But doesn't the constant pumping up the hometown and comparing your city to somewhere else end up making a city sound second-rate?  Like they are looking for validation?

I think you may be on to something. I've spent my adulthood being somewhat dismayed by what the Washington Post called El Paso's "mindless boosterism."

I have always wondered why, if DC is such a culinary wasteland, so many talented chefs come here. Further, I can't tell you how many tourists I've run into who are only interested in eating at the chains. I hate, hate, hate having to give directions to the McDonalds in Adams Morgan when asked by tourists. There are so many other, better, choices right around the place. And, on another tack, there seems to be a need here for the "power" place, where the food comes in a far second to being seen at an optimal time.

I would not give up Tom Power or Michael Landrum in order to get Thomas Keller. I would never be able to afford to eat at a restaurant like Per Se more than once I my life. I can look forward to Corduroy or RTS at least for special occasions, if not more often.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Identifying a local food icon I think misses Joe's point (someone is bound to vote for half-smokes). His point seems to be that that Washington area has not only world class restaurants, but lots of great restaurants in general, and no one knows it but us. That is the problem, a lack of PR. What is the solution? PR. Who's job is it to promote this area as a restaurant Mecca? I don't see this as the job of the local newspapers as they generally only have local circulation. I think it should be the job of the local restaurant association. They should have someone who's job it is to hound national print publications to include articles on the DC restaurant scene. The local restaurateurs should start chewing the arse of the management of their local association to get on the ball.

[Joe H]

Barbara, I really believe it's the image that people have of D. C. who do not live here. Having travelled 125+ days a year for 24 years in all of North America and Europe for business (and never having been short of an opinion!!!) I believe it's their expectation of what they will find when they get here. I also believe that this expectation has changed over the 24 years I've been travelling.

In the early 1980's Washington was not considered a world class, beautiful city. Certainly, not a clean and safe city especially with all the national press about our murder rate then along with an overall negative impression of some areas of the city. Every city has areas like this but in D. C. we suffered because of the association with crime.

Today, the two words I hear most when I meet people elsewhere-ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE-are "beauitful" and "clean." I have talked to many Europeans who have come here. In the '80's this was not their first choice for an American vacation. Perhaps New York, Miami, California (northern or southern) or Orlando but D. C. really wasn't even included. Today, I believe that the two magic destinations for Europeans are Orlando and Las Vegas, followed by New York and, yes, Washington. Just my impression but I believe this. I also believe we compete with San Francisco for the title of America's most beautiful city. Last I cannot help but add how many people have told me that they expected D. C. to be like New York: "dirty" with "graffiti everywhere." And it is not. It is clean, heavily treed, very European if you will.

Americans love Washington. This year we had 18 million visitors, one of the top five destinations in the U. S. I believe. This is growing-we benefit from a week dollar and, for some, a hesitation to travel overseas.

But when people come here they read books like Frommer's and Fodor's and Michelin (travel guide) and others. All write about Washington restaurants. None write about Washington restaurants in the way they write about restaurants in many other cities. I would draw an analogy here with Barcelona ten years ago where I would make the argument that Parisians fought the ascension of the Catelan city to its level by grudgingly giving it credit. For that matter Parisians only grudingly give any other city credit. Yet today some believe that the most exciting cities in the world are both in Spain: Barcelona and San Sebastian. You won't read this in a paper or magazine in France. But you will read it in a lot of other places.

I don't have the time right now to go into detail (forgive me) but it would be worth a lengthy discussion (a study even) for how Barcelona overcame this. I would complete the analogy to show ourselves and New York. No, we have nothing in common with the Spanish cities and yes, ten years ago they were both ahead of us today. But maybe not as far ahead as one might think. There was another interesting article in the Sunday Times which focused on efforts by Michel, Fabio and others, working with a doctor from Alexandria, to realize a new direction in food preparation that actually involved using (don't laugh) cryovac bags. Apparently, taste can be intensified, concentrated if you will along with texture by a particular technique the doctor has developed and we are in the forefront of this-along with Keller and Boulud. But we're there. And the times gave us major play in the article.

This is a step as are steps taken by some of our chefs to travel to New York and cook where the magazines are located. This is not so much "boosterism" as it can be part of an orchestrated plan to promote the city. Don't think for a second that Barcelona or Las Vegas do not promote themselves. Look how the perception of Vegas has changed? Yet, subtly, the new Wynn is now boasting "chefs in residence" almost an admission that you can have an excellent meal at so many of the celebrity restaurants; but in fact Valentino, Emeril's, Commander's, Il Mulino, etc. THERE may not be as good as the original in the city where it started.

I am suggesting there are different levels of this, only one a board like this where some of the participants, genuinely loving food, find things about here that are unique and worth sharing with each other. Or features of Washington which are on par with elsewhere.

Another level is our press and how the press sees their own city. The press can be the voice of the city. A third level is our own government and its incentive for promotion of the restaurant industry. The goal, I think, for D. C. is to influence some of the writers in Fodor's, Frommer's, Michelin and elsewhere that when they write about the beauty of D. C. they also tell their readers that one of the highpoints of the visit will be our restaurants. Not just the top end (and Ethiopean) but also our kebob and Peruvian chicken places, crab shacks and elsewhere.

There's more but this isn't my job. I'm just someone who was born here 58 years ago and, having travelled far too much, found that we have some things as good as anywhere else. Yet nobody, or at least only a few, were talking about it.

One last point: most of my posts over my four years on CH had nothing to do with this. Rather, I much prefer writing about personal experiences and sharing them. The emphasis in the City Paper article was my promotion of D. C. and two top end restaurants. 95% of what I wrote had nothing to do with either. Yet this was the reason I left because of what happened.

Edited August 15, 2005 by Joe H

[PandaHugga]

Joe and I have had discussions about the relative merits of DC as a restaurant city, especially as compared with my home town, NYC. I continue to think that DC is not at the same level as NYC or even San Francisco when it comes to European style foods, primarily since I have yet to find places in DC that can compare with the middle-of-the-road places one finds so easily in those two cities for Italian, French, Brazilian, etc Western cuisines. Where DC does do well is in the cuisines of countries that have undergone violent political upheaval (such as Ethiopia, El Salvador, etc), since I believe that the representatives of these countries' diplomatic corps wind up staying here after their countries have a coup d'etat, set up restaurants (for lack of anything else to do) and become something of a phenomenon. What else could possibly explain the number of Ethiopian restaurants in DC?

Furthermore, since DC tends to have a transient population (Joe is about the only person I know from the area), people tend to think that the food back home was better.

[JPW]

Joe and I have had discussions about the relative merits of DC as a restaurant city, especially as compared with my home town, NYC.  I continue to think that DC is not at the same level as NYC or even San Francisco when it comes to European style foods, primarily since I have yet to find places in DC that can compare with the middle-of-the-road places one finds so easily in those two cities for Italian, French, Brazilian, etc Western cuisines.  Where DC does do well is in the cuisines of countries that have undergone violent political upheaval (such as Ethiopia, El Salvador, etc), since I believe that the representatives of these countries' diplomatic corps wind up staying here after their countries have a coup d'etat, set up restaurants (for lack of anything else to do) and become something of a phenomenon.  What else could possibly explain the number of Ethiopian restaurants in DC? 

Furthermore, since DC tends to have a transient population (Joe is about the only person I know from the area), people tend to think that the food back home was better.

I think that the cuisines that thrive in various metro areas has more generally to do with "migration magnets". It's well established that migrants from particular countries tend to follow earlier migrants from the same country/area of the world. While it is obvious why Southern California and Texas are centers for Mexican immigrants, this magnet effect helps explain why some ethnic groups don't end up in the port of call closest to their homeland.

NYC has served as a center for Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. Detroit for Arabs. Chicago for Jamaicans. DC just happened to get Ethiopians and Salvadorans (among other groups).

[johnb]

Joe and I have had discussions about the relative merits of DC as a restaurant city, especially as compared with my home town, NYC.  I continue to think that DC is not at the same level as NYC or even San Francisco when it comes to European style foods, primarily since I have yet to find places in DC that can compare with the middle-of-the-road places one finds so easily in those two cities for Italian, French, Brazilian, etc Western cuisines.  Where DC does do well is in the cuisines of countries that have undergone violent political upheaval (such as Ethiopia, El Salvador, etc), since I believe that the representatives of these countries' diplomatic corps wind up staying here after their countries have a coup d'etat, set up restaurants (for lack of anything else to do) and become something of a phenomenon.  What else could possibly explain the number of Ethiopian restaurants in DC? 

Furthermore, since DC tends to have a transient population (Joe is about the only person I know from the area), people tend to think that the food back home was better.

Panda makes good points. I too spent some years of my life in the big wormy apple, doing grad work at that same august institution of higher learning as he. My take on NY vs. DC restaurants is that the differences are mostly rooted in the physical dis-similarities between the two places. I refer to both population and how folks live.

Anyone, even Joe, would probably agree that NY (Manhattan) has a greater number of restaurants at all quality levels than does DC (the District). In part it's pure population difference--Manhattan is three times bigger than DC, and almost certainly has an even greater gap in those who tend to patronize restaurants, ie young, rich, smart, handsome, in other words like me and other Rockwellians, but I digress. More important, however, is the mode of living. Down here, most folks can and do cook at home a lot; restaurant-going tends to be the exception (not true of all I know, but we're talking the big picture here!). Consider on the other hand the typical NY apartment kitchen. Tiny, dark, no waste disposer, no dishwasher, small refrigerator, tiny cooktop, at best erratic oven, trash chute down the hall, long schlepp with groceries from the store, etc. etc. Who wouldn't eat out a lot? And New Yorkers do. This creates a huge restaurant market, and more important an eating out culture, that DC (not to mention the rest of civilized society) just doesn't have.

Does all this make the average quality level of NY restaurants better than DC? Does this make New Yorkers more sophisticated, cool, people than us in DC? I think not. Sure there's more of them, but Joe is right; we can hold our own in quality terms very well thank you. Restaurants and cool people. We just don't have the sheer numbers

Just my thoughts.

Edited August 16, 2005 by johnb

[Heather]

Does all this make the average quality level of NY restaurants better than DC? Does this make New Yorkers more sophisticated, cool, people than us in DC?  I think not.  Sure there's more of them, but Joe is right we can hold our own in quality terms very well thank you.  We just don't have the sheer numbers

I would definitely agree with the above.

Seriously, you raise good points John B, particularly those about home cooking in the big bad apple VS DC. One of the reasons (one of many) that Scott and I didn't move to NYC 5 years ago was the desire for a kitchen we could actually cook in.

[dinwiddie]

johnb makes a good point about dining out in Manhattan. There are several reasons that places like Las Vegas are great restaurant towns, the formost being that there are so many visitors. But DC gets them too, if not as much as LV.

DC is definitely an ethnic restaurant kind of place. That's why the tired old joke that you can always tell where there is trouble in the third world, they are opening restaurants in Adams-Morgan. We have large populations of Salvadorians, Ethiopians, and Thais and their cusines are ubiquitous here in DC, though mainly in the suburbs in the case of Thai and Salvadorian restaurants. Also large populations of Vietnamese, Koreans, etc.

One of the things going aginst DC is the perception that the people here are transatory, staying for 2-4 years and then gone. We know that there are lots of folks like that, but it is not true for the most part. I've lived here over 20 years, not counting the years I lived here when I was a teenager in the 60's.

But the fact of the matter is DC has a plethora of fine dining establishments, and many of them are world class (I don't need to list them.) We have as varied a menu of ethnic restaurants as you will find anywhere except maybe NY and we might give that city a run for its money too.

What we don't have is a "City Dish" like a Philly cheesesteak or a Chicago pizza. (I refuse to call a half smoke the city dish) Regionally we have crabcakes and blue crabs, but that is not a DC speciality.

Joe is also right that the city does not publicize its restaurants the way other cities do. We should, the most important people in the world come here, the median income is very high, we get lots of visitors every year from not just the US but the world. We have something for everyone, not jus the world class (and free) museums and monuments, but a vibrant educational scene, a world class arts scene, and great eats.

Don't let anyone get away with saying the DC is not a world class destination for dining, because it is, regardless what some of those know-nothings on chowhound have to say.

[FunnyJohn]

I agree with the astute observations made in the course of this thread about:

1)DC (and the greater Metro area) being an ethnic cornucopia

2) " " having numerous world or at least national-class restaurants

3) being a major tourist destination

4) lagging in a concerted PR campaign regarding the dining possibilities we are blessed with.

Some additional thoughts I have concern why visitors think of DC mainly in terms of sight-seeing and fast food so as to allow time for more sight seeing. One of these is that people who come to DC for tourism, bring their kids and that mitigates against them going to many of the great establishments we know and love. Ethnic restaurants, however, are an immense educational opportunity for exposure to different cultures -- take your kid to National Geographic and then go eat at someplace in Chinatown, or Jaleo, or Zed's.

There is another large block of people who come to DC because they have government-related business, and this is a block that should be tapped. The Convention Center(s) the one in DC plus other places that host large conferences should tout the dining possibilities available. Congressional offices, too should have information available (RAMW get on the ball and prepare a brochure!). The air carriers who utilize DC airports should carry some more info in their seat-back mags.

Edited August 16, 2005 by FunnyJohn

[Mark Slater]

Here is how the "other" board handled Kliman's article:

Chickenhound

[zoramargolis]

A cousin of my husband's was coming to town for an annual meeting of Orthopedic Surgeons. About two weeks in advance, she asked me to make reservations on a particular night during the meeting, in a good restaurant of my choice. I called at least ten high-end places before I was able to get a table. At each place I called, I was told that there was a convention in town, which was why there were no tables available. I did finally get a reservation at Corduroy, and we had an excellent meal there--it was packed to the walls, mid-week. But the experience was instructive: when 10,000 or more affluent people gather in this town, they don't have any trouble at all finding the many fine restaurants we have here.

[tripewriter]

What we don't have is a "City Dish" like a Philly cheesesteak or a Chicago pizza.  (I refuse to call a half smoke the city dish)  Regionally we have crabcakes and blue crabs, but that is not a DC speciality.

I don't understand what these dishes have to do with the broader culinary picture. Sure, when I visited Philly I spent five bucks on a (cheese)steak. But I spent close to 500 bucks at Morimoto. I have trouble accepting the idea that high-end restaurants or great restaurant scenes are built on the back of slices, sandwiches, clam chowder in a sourdough bowl, etc.

[Sthitch]

The Washington area gets a number of mentions in the new Culinary Arts magazine. The have a short piece on the comings and goings around the city, the size of which is usually reserved for New York, or San Francisco. There are pieces that include the food that Eric Ziebold is serving this fall, a story about cocktails that stars off by mentioning Eve, and a notation of a bread that Mark Furstenberg at the "Worlds of Flavor Baking & Pastry Arts Invitational." This magazine has always done a better job than most of not getting stuck in the Paris-NYC-San Francisco rut of restaurant news.

[brr]

What we don't have is a "City Dish" like a Philly cheesesteak

hopefully this is only slightly off topic - a magazine I subscribe to has started including a free DVD with each issue, with varied content from music videos to sneak previews to short films

One of the short films on last months DVD was a documentary called "The Great Cheesesteak Debate", and amusing and informative look at Philly cheesesteaks and which purveyors native Philly-ians consider to be the best - I enjoyed it for the passion and conviction (and trash talking) displayed by the folks interviewed and suspect most other folsk on the board would as well

and I agree with tripewriter - I don't see why we 'have' to have a regional specialty dish

[DonRocks]

[Actually, this entire thread has gone off-topic, and will be split / reorganized when I find fifteen minutes of breathing room.

As a general guideline, it's always in good form to take a look at the thread title, and ask yourselves whether or not your posting has relevancy to the thread, and also whether or not it would be useful to someone reading it (this saves me a lot of work).]

[dinwiddie]

[Actually, this entire thread has gone off-topic, and will be split / reorganized when I find fifteen minutes of breathing room.

As a general guideline, it's always in good form to take a look at the thread title, and ask yourselves whether or not your posting has relevancy to the thread, and also whether or not it would be useful to someone reading it (this saves me a lot of work).]

Threads have a tendancy to do that, what with someone responding to what someone else said. But you are going to have to put up with it unless you want to become like Jim Leff and the rest of the Chowhound Team.

[DonRocks]

Threads have a tendancy to do that, what with someone responding to what someone else said.  But you are going to have to put up with it unless you want to become like Jim Leff and the rest of the Chowhound Team.

[thx for the advice]