Latkes

[Ilaine]

Throwing down the gauntlet here: my family recipe, also from several generations (was your family perhaps from somewhere other than Belarus?) insists on matzo meal. Several generations of really good cooks, by the way. (I come by it honestly.) And as much as I have rebelled against the traditions of my past, I would never consider making potato latkes in the Germanic style, with flour.

FWIW, my husband's German Lutheran family makes potato pancakes with flour. Until you guys started the discussion it never occurred to me that potato pancakes and latkes are not necessarily the same thing with different names.

We've never used matzo meal but now I want to try that.

(I do have one Jewish great-great-grandfather circa 1790s but he married a young French refugee from the Haitian revolution and they assimilated in South Louisiana. Kids were brought up Catholic. Nothing at all to do with the Acadian diaspora, one reason I remain a bit prickly on the distinctions.)

[DanielK]

Since I am 100% White Russian on both sides of my family (all my great-grandparents and grandparents emigrated from small villages near Minsk), I am guessing that the "latkes with flour" recipe in your family came from elsewhere in the Pale. Poland, perhaps, since the others are Litvaks. Wait, are Ukarainian Jews also Litvaks? I know that the Belarussians and Lithuanians are. I do know that Polish Jewish food can be very different.

Yes, Ukrainian Jews are also Litvaks, as are those from NE Poland. My family is from small towns near Kiev, Minsk, Vilnius, and NE Poland.

The sweeter versions of dishes are definitely not the ones in my family. Holishkas are savory, not sweet, and noodle kugel doesn't have cottage cheese or raisins.

Hope the rest of you are enjoying this.

[leleboo]

Yes, Ukrainian Jews are also Litvaks, as are those from NE Poland. My family is from small towns near Kiev, Minsk, Vilnius, and NE Poland.

The sweeter versions of dishes are definitely not the ones in my family. Holishkas are savory, not sweet, and noodle kugel doesn't have cottage cheese or raisins.

Hope the rest of you are enjoying this.

Kiev and Riga (Latvia) here, plus Alsace and some unknown German something-or-other. So yes, I am enjoying, indeed. (FWIW: latkes in my family use flour OR matzoh meal OR just egg OR do whateverthehell works for you, just fry some damn potatoes for Hanukkah. So, you know, mazel tov.)

[monavano]

Kiev and Riga (Latvia) here, plus Alsace and some unknown German something-or-other. So yes, I am enjoying, indeed. (FWIW: latkes in my family use flour OR matzoh meal OR just egg OR do whateverthehell works for you, just fry some damn potatoes for Hanukkah. So, you know, mazel tov.)

I'm enjoying the back and forth over latkes too! In my family, Mom just took leftover mashed potatoes, added egg and flour and fried patties up in her old Revere Ware skillet. She could really turn those leftovers into something special. Me-I've tried but usually end up making a greasy mess

I've read through threads from here and CH, and taken pointers from those with Jewish ancestry to tinker with my Polish recipes.

[squidsdc]

So nice to know we are not the only ones eating latkes in January. With my niece in town from her college break, and too many schedules to coordinate, we are having a very delayed get-together on Sunday. My father is always in charge of making the latkes and they always taste great, even though I know he's changed the recipe from year to year. Fried potatoes...what wouldn't be good about that! Hope to compare notes if I can wrangle the recipe from him.

[mame11]

Since I am 100% White Russian on both sides of my family (all my great-grandparents and grandparents emigrated from small villages near Minsk),

Zora, I'm one-upping you here. I am a descendant of Jews from Germany on all sides. Claiming the mantle of which recipe is more "Jewish" than any other interpretation of a recipe is inappropriate. Because your family prepares latkes one way does not make it the only, or even the most authentic, way to do so. In fact Joan Nathan, Claudia Roden and Marcie Cohen Ferris have all written beautiful cookbooks that incorporate recipes from across the spectrum of the Jewish experience because each recipe and experience is "authentically" Jewish.

But good for you for being "White Russian." I am happily a Yeke. One of the best things about being Jewish is the diversity among us. I'm always jealous of Sephardic Jews at Passover because their food choices blow us Azhkenaz out of the water...

[zoramargolis]

Zora, I'm one-upping you here. I am a descendant of Jews from Germany on all sides. Claiming the mantle of which recipe is more "Jewish" than any other interpretation of a recipe is inappropriate. Because your family prepares latkes one way does not make it the only, or even the most authentic, way to do so. In fact Joan Nathan, Claudia Roden and Marcie Cohen Ferris have all written beautiful cookbooks that incorporate recipes from across the spectrum of the Jewish experience because each recipe and experience is "authentically" Jewish.

But good for you for being "White Russian." I am happily a Yeke. One of the best things about being Jewish is the diversity among us. I'm always jealous of Sephardic Jews at Passover because their food choices blow us Azhkenaz out of the water...

I agree with you about Sephardic food being much more interesting, but I have to disagree with you that it is inappropriate for me to point out that the potato pancake recipe with flour is "less Jewish"--I actually think I said it is more goyish, which it is. The Jews who migrated to Eastern Europe from the Middle East weren't making potato pancakes until they began to move into Germany. As Joan Nathan points out, the original Chanukah dish was cheese fried in olive oil. Since olive oil wasn't available as a cooking fat in Europe and schmaltz, chicken or goose fat, was the necessary frying medium, it wasn't possible to make fried cheese--it wasn't kosher. The Germans were already making potato pancakes and the Jews adopted it, along with many aspects of German culture, including their language. (Yiddish is about 85% "low" German and 15% Hebrew and other languages that were added along the way, like Polish and Russian.) The Jews who later migrated to other areas of Eastern Europe, including Belarus, Lithuania and the Ukraine modified the Germanic potato pancake recipe to utilize a culturally syntonic ingredient available to them, matzo meal. German Jews, who often considered themselves of a higher caste, as it were, than the Jewish peasants of Eastern Europe, stuck to the traditional German-style potato pancake which used wheat flour as a binder. So the recipe, if made with flour, is the same as the original German version. The one made with matzo meal has been modified to use an ingredient that predates the Ashkenazi Jews' arrival in Eastern Europe. There's no need to get your feathers ruffled, NCP. Any traditional Jewish holiday dish prepared by a Jew is Jewish food. And as a White Russian Jew, I wouldn't dare consider my traditions superior to a German Jew's...

[mame11]

I agree with you about Sephardic food being much more interesting, but I have to disagree with you that it is inappropriate for me to point out that the potato pancake recipe with flour is "less Jewish"--I actually think I said it is more goyish, which it is. The Jews who migrated to Eastern Europe from the Middle East weren't making potato pancakes until they began to move into Germany. As Joan Nathan points out, the original Chanukah dish was cheese fried in olive oil. Since olive oil wasn't available as a cooking fat in Europe and schmaltz, chicken or goose fat, was the necessary frying medium, it wasn't possible to make fried cheese--it wasn't kosher. The Germans were already making potato pancakes and the Jews adopted it, along with many aspects of German culture, including their language. (Yiddish is about 85% "low" German and 15% Hebrew and other languages that were added along the way, like Polish and Russian.) The Jews who later migrated to other areas of Eastern Europe, including Belarus, Lithuania and the Ukraine modified the Germanic potato pancake recipe to utilize a culturally syntonic ingredient available to them, matzo meal. German Jews, who often considered themselves of a higher caste, as it were, than the Jewish peasants of Eastern Europe, stuck to the traditional German-style potato pancake which used wheat flour as a binder. So the recipe, if made with flour, is the same as the original German version. The one made with matzo meal has been modified to use an ingredient that predates the Ashkenazi Jews' arrival in Eastern Europe. There's no need to get your feathers ruffled, NCP. Any traditional Jewish holiday dish prepared by a Jew is Jewish food. And as a White Russian Jew, I wouldn't dare consider my traditions superior to a German Jew's...

Wow. Telling a Jew that their tradition is "more goyish" might be worse than saying something is "less Jewish." Jews always adopt things from the cultures in which they live, like Sephardic food reflects North Africa and Mediterranean cultures, and even why Hasidic Jews wear the black hats that were popular with the gentiles among whom they lived. Just because your ancestors altered the recipe to reflect the place in which they lived doesn't mean other recipes are more Goyish, or that your tradition is more Jewish.

Interestingly the symbiotic relationship between cultures is reflected in many places... including the Christmas tree. Apparently non-Jewish Germans adopted the idea of putting lights (candles) on trees from their Jewish neighbors who had menorahs in their windows. Or so I saw on a documentary many years ago.

Regardless, though, it is not accurate that any one way of making a dish is more Jewish than any other... unless of course you cook the latkes in lard. Then that would not be cool.

[Mark Slater]

Viel Lärm um nichts

[zoramargolis]

Many people do not realize that latkes have the ability to divide families:

And posters on DR.com.

In making potato latkes with flour, German (and other) Jews are using the same recipe as potato pancakes made by non-Jewish Germans. The Jewish and goyish (non-Jewish) recipes are identical.

FWIW, my husband's German Lutheran family makes potato pancakes with flour.

Potato latkes made with matzo meal are using a different ingredient, matzo meal, that is used pretty much exclusively by Jews. Thus this latke recipe is different when made by Jews than the potato pancake that is made in the Germanic style, whether that is made by Jews or non-Jews. This is not a slur or a canard, it is a fact. Why it is the case that German Jews make their Chanukah potato latkes with flour and Russian Jews make them with matzo meal is an interesting subject. So is the way that "traditional" recipes get handed down in families. It's less clear in regionally blended families like Daniel's and leleboo's than it is in 100% White Russian families like mine or 100% German families like NCP's.

My family is from small towns near Kiev, Minsk, Vilnius, and NE Poland.

Kiev and Riga (Latvia) here, plus Alsace and some unknown German something-or-other.

My guess is that the Jews who remained in Germany were more highly educated, possibly more affluent and were able to assimilate into the broader German culture unlike those who migrated to Russia, where they lived a more segregated life in shtetls... or something like that.

[Anna Blume]

Almost a year later, just wish to add the following notes:

• Tried mixture of two small sweet potatoes and two Yukons (no Russets at home) and really like them, so thanks to traditionalists who tweak tradition.
  
• And Zora, cranberry sauce as condiment is great, too!
  
• Since my food processor has to be brought out of storage, it's not worth the hassle for a small batch, especially when it comes to clean-up. Happy medium is to shred the onion w mandolin before chopping.
  

[The Hersch]

Yiddish is about 85% "low" German

A belated note: Yiddish is descended from Middle High German, not Low German. English is Low German, along with Dutch, Frisian, and Plattdeutsch.

On topic: I love potato pancakes made all kinds of ways. Can the kind that are basically just shredded potatoes and onions fried up into cakes ever be called latkes?

[Ilaine]

OK I am not Jewish so what do I know from latkes? But the first latkes I ever ate were just grated potato, grated onion, and egg. No?

[hillvalley]

When I was hired it was with the stipulation that I would help host the annual Channukah party and overseeing the making of enough latkes for 40 staff and students or about 300 latkes.   The party takes place in the grade 10 boy's dorm so that increased the amount of latkes needed by about 100.  And no, I'm not exaggerating.

We pulled it off using local, thin skinned potatoes (you can't get russets around here), onions, eggs and flour (family tradition and the kitchen would have no clue where to get matzoh meal) and fried them up in olive oil.  The only major hurdles we had to overcome were my weak and therefor limited in usefulness hand and the fact that I blew out my friend's Cuisinart with one third of the potatoes left.  This caused a mad dash to the other side of campus to a friend's apartment to borrow her box grater but the crisis was diverted. Oh, and we forgot to order sour cream and the Mexican kids were disappointed we didn't have cinnamon and sugar.

Here's my question for this year's debate: why bother peeling thin skinned potatoes?  We didn't, partly because we didn't have the time (and partly because my friend who hosted didn't have a peeler.  It made no difference at all.  The latkes were fantastic.  Some batches were greasier than others but that's what happens when you are frying to order and don't always have time to get the oil to a proper temperature.  Not one person noticed that the skin hadn't been removed and it did not affect the taste at all.

Let the debate begin....

ps I highly recommend topping your latke with two day old eggs fried in olive oil topped with siracha.  Divine.

[Barbara]

ps I highly recommend topping your latke with two day old eggs fried in olive oil topped with siracha.  Divine.

Clarification, please: were the eggs fried two days before or laid two days before? Inquiring minds want to know.

[hillvalley]

Clarification, please: were the eggs fried two days before or laid two days before? Inquiring minds want to know.

If they were fried two days ago I would have written eggs fried two days before.  The eggs were two days old when fried.

[jayandstacey]

I'm not Jewish.  I didn't grow up on latkes.  I just love potatoes.

So to me, the great divide is Crispies vs. Cakes.  I like the cripsies.  To that end, when I make latkes at home using the "Joy of Cooking" basic recipe with flour and some egg on the shredded potatoes, I spoon them loosely into the hot oil in the pan. I don't pack them at all.  That allows the shreds to 'spread out' into the oil.  I cook them just to point of burnt and carefully extract from the oil.

The result is a mouthful of crunch, with a small but discernable soft center.   They sometimes look like softshell crabs or bird's nests.

I've had friends say that in families bound by latkes, the cripsy vs. cakey debate is what divides.  I find the cakey ones to seem generally oily to me, but they also tend to allow the onion to be tasted - as the crispies seem to obliterate most onion flavor, sadly.  But when adding sour cream or applesauce, the crispies float my boat.

Would mine even be considered latkes?  Am I doing it wrong?

[saf]

I'm not Jewish.  I didn't grow up on latkes.  I just love potatoes.

Would mine even be considered latkes?  Am I doing it wrong?

I am not Jewish. I am a bit more than half German. So I grew up on potato pancakes, not latkes. Same thing, but we used flour rather than matzo meal.  Oh, and they are always served with applesauce, sour cream, and sausage. (breakfast sausage). And my grandfather always sprinkled them lightly with sugar. So I do that too.

We always grated on the screen grater, but now I use the food processor. Also, I have never bothered to peel the potatoes.

More crunch than cake, and lots of onion.

A very good friend of mine is Czech. He makes potato pancakes, and I can't spell what he calls them. His are FULL of garlic and marjoram. They are good, but not the same. And there is no applesauce involved.

[Ilaine]

Latkes fried in goose fat are marvellous things.  Used the video recipe from America's Test Kitchen,  which is somewhat different than the written version that accompanies the video.  It has an excellent premise, squeeze the liquid out of the shredded potatoes and onion into a big bowl or measuring cup, heat the mixture in the microwave to change the structure of the starch, pour off the water on top of the accumulated starch (we squeezed into a two quart pyrex measuring cup), incorporate the potato starch into the mixture rather than something like matzo meal, add eggs, fry at 350.

I determined that the recipe has a flaw.  Nuking the mixture caused the potatoes to release more liquid, which should have been squeezed out after nuking it.  My body builder son squeezed the first time, and they were plenty dry, but after I incorporated the eggs and the starch, the mixture was very runny.  I put it in a colander and squeezed some more, and still had to squeeze every individual latke before frying.  I grabbed a small handful, squeezed it by hand, shaped it and fried them in hot goose fat.

I used the induction cooktop I bought from Dr. Xmas, because it is very good at maintaining a set temperature.  I selected the very deep cast iron pan designed for frying chicken because I thought that would hold the heat best.  I did not wait long enough for the entire pan to heat up, but eventually the heat was even and the latkes cooked evenly.  Even so, I found I could only fry three at a time in the very center of the pan, and only by making them smallish, less than three inches across.  Next time I will use a shallow cast iron frying pan, probably the ten incher, because that is less metal to keep hot.

We don't own an electric fry pan, which, as I understand it, is ideal for making large batches of latkes.  It would be a unitasker for us.

The latkes were, indeed, crisp, and, thanks to the goose fat, transcendent, if I may say so myself.  The texture from using a box grater was, in my opinion, superior to that when using the food processor.  Bodybuilder son did the grating but I would do it myself rather than use the food processor again.

The goose fat came from steaming a 12 pound goose the night before Christmas, which rendered out almost a quart of beautiful goose fat.  The goose, roasted the next day, only rendered between a quarter inch and a half inch of fat.  We are saving that separately.

[KeithA]

The latkes were, indeed, crisp, and, thanks to the goose fat, transcendent, if I may say so myself.  The texture from using a box grater was, in my opinion, superior to that when using the food processor.  Bodybuilder son did the grating but I would do it myself rather than use the food processor again.

Processor vs. grater - I vote processor if you have a ribbon shredder grater insert.  So depending on how you like your latkes - a pile of shredded crispy strips or crispy on the edges but more of thick patty you need to adjust your grating.  I grew up on the pile of crispy shredded strips that are found in many recipes and it is very good - essentially fried hashbrowns.  However, I married into a family with a very particular focus on making thicker latkes from an almost completely grated to bits mixture. They had always done this by grating potatos on a box grater on the smallest holes and then adding egg, vinegar, salt, and matzah meal (and some grated onion depending on who in the family was cooking).  This year, I finally got the approval from my mother-in-law that you could get the same result by using a processor - step 1: shred potatos in processor with grating insert and step 2: pulse chop shreds with standard processor blade till mostly, but not completely blitzed to bits.  It is much faster, less tiring and same result.  I even had the chance to compare because we had processor assisted latkes at my house and then a few nights later hand grated latkes at my brother in laws (they don't have a processor) - same exact taste.

BTW - we don't strained the water or reuse the potato starch.  Just cut/grate/mix in other ingredients and fry. As long as the oil is lot enough - they come out crispy and great. Happy belated chanukkah!