Drive-by Critic

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Before leaving this board, I will explain one more time and hope that some of you will actually read it:

It isn't that I don't care to know what is authentic and what isn't. It is that it doesn't make a difference in whether a dish tastes good or not. Judge food by the taste, not the label.

Is that clear enough?

Now, as to the freaking bones. Cooking bone on the meat makes sense if you are cooking slowly. If cooked slowly, flavor and body can be imparted by the marrow. If you throw the pieces into a wok and cook them quickly, that does not occur. So nice try, but no cigar. I'm sure someone knows why the Chinese cut chicken this way, but does it matter? If it doesn't contribute to the flavor of the food, and if it requires the diner to perform surgery on the meal before eating it (or spit bones, or swallow a sharp bone), then perhaps they could try something new?

Don - I can't find an unsubscribe option? Would you be so kind as to perform the honors? I'm going back to eating in blissful ignorance. Thanks for the hospitality and for the time you and HillValley put into this venture.

It is possible you were at HEOB on a bad night.  Maybe you just don't get "authentic Chinese food.

Actually, I don't know - for most of the items on the HEOTB menu - which items are authentic or not (or more or less authentic). That's why I didn't understand the responses. Some implied that I'd ordered authentic (but shouldn't have) and others implied that I'd ordered American Chinese (but shouldn't have). In addition to the chili insignia for spicy dishes, maybe they should also have a little character for authentic vs. Western. I recognize some of the items as traditional Chinese delicacies (sea cucumber, for instance) but how am I supposed to know if spicy shrimp wonton are authentic or not? And why should I care? It is my mouth. If it is good, great. If not, I won't like it, no matter how many Chinese seals of authenticity it has. This insistence on authenticity over quality smacks of massive food snobbery.

Maybe you ordered the "wrong things."  But your posts, except for the first, on two threads, seem to me not to just be a recap of your experience but a hostile attack on HEOB for serving the style cuisine they serve. 

How could I possibly criticize them for the kind of cuisine they serve, when it isn't clear which of those dishes the experts consider to be authentic/ersatz?

If you don't like it, fine.  But when your criticism seems to show a lack of understanding of what they are trying to do at HEOB, then you might get some flack, as you obviously did.  In my case, I feel you are attacking them for their authenticity.

Again, I can't attack them for authenticity or lack thereof when I don't know which of the dishes we ordered is considered authentic and which is not?

Nothing you wrote seems to imply they are doing authentic badly.  Just that you think dishes which sound mighty authentic in your descriptions are "authentic done badly".

One last time. Whether authentic or not, the food was not very good. That's why I explained in exactly so much detail what we found objectionable. I don't like critiques that don't give details. They are neither fair nor useful. I stated exactly what we didn't like. You are the first one to say, "but that's the way it is supposed to be" as to the properties that bothered us.

To answer your specific points:

Point 1 c)... yep thats exactly how it comes.  Schezuan dishes often have a layer of "orange grease" due to their use of hot oil: peanut oil is heated till almost smoking and crushed chilis are tossed in.  The chilis are turned almost black and all the heat winds up in the oil.  The oil winds up bright orange.  Some cooks add sesame oil to this which makes it thicker.  More rustic cooking used the oil with the flakes, more refined tends to use just the oil.  In a dish like spicy won tons, the usual recipe would call for a tablespoon of hot oil added to the dish.  In fact in Schezuan cooking, the typical dish is cooked so the sauce separates into a pool of oil and a thick, intensely flavored sauce.  This is a sign of good cooking in that culture.

Thank you for the first informative response I've received. I though this place was charactereized as Cantonese?

Point 2... never had this dish so I will keep my mouth shut.

As to your point 3.... authenticty is authenticty.  Chinese birds and meats are often served chopped up in small pieces bones and all.  So are the ribs.  That's the honest, proper, traditional way to do it.  If you don't like getting bits of bones in your chicken, you should not order anything but boneless chicken dishes.  So in this case, with your repeated insistence that something clearly authentic is bad, yes you are showing off your lack of experience with authentic Chinese food.

OK, so here's where it gets confusing again. I know this is traditional. But again, I didn't know or care if it was authentic. All I know is that it is an unpleasant experience for the eater. Well, neither one of us has to worry about it. Sooner or later, someone will choke on the bones (or have a bone perforate the esophagus or the stomach) and will sue. And in this great country that won't let us eat runny eggs or medium rare burgers, a law will be enacted that prohibits serving chicken with small bits of bone.

Point 4... Duck tongue, to me, has a greasy character that I don't particularly care for.  I much prefer the beef tendon.  Or the rabbit in spicy sauce.  But be careful, because it is served chopped into little pieces with bits of bone.  And their spicy wontons come with about a 3/8 inch layer of orange hot pepper oil on top. 

So basically, Chinese restaurants, especially those in areas that are not predominantly Chinese, have to serve Westernized foods.  While I have dined at HE & HEOTB perhaps 50 or more times, I have encountered a few off dishes.  Most of the food is equal to what I used to get in Monterey Park in Southern California, an area with more authenticity in Chinese food than any other I have encountered.  I put in a lot of time at the table, asking about the food to learn Chinese food.  When I go to a restaurant that actually has authentic food, I do not expect the westernized food to be good and do all I can to avoid it.

Still don't understand you. Whether western or so authentic that no one except a native-born Chinese person from one town in China would recognize it, it should be well-prepared. YOu are telling me that with regard to the wontons, they were well-prepared. I acknowledge that you obviously have more knowledge about this and thank you for sharing it with me.

HEOB to me has some of the best dim sum around: here, Monterey Park, LA, San Francisco, Chicago or New York.  Their fresh seafood is spectacular (the razor clams are amazing in black bean and garlic sauce).  Their cold meats are superb.  They make one of the best pressed 5 spice beancurds around!.  They do a fantastic job with greens and Chinese vegetables.  I do think you have to be careful when ordering a stir fry... what I do is ask my waiter to recommend a pork or scallop or whatever dish and then I usually get something pretty darned good. 

I wasn't there for dim sum.

Don't like it... fine.  But please don't imply that we are wrong for liking HEOTB.

You are within your rights to like HEOTB. But don't take what others said - a group of contradictory and confusing responses that confounded authenticity and quality - put those words in my mouth. I explained clearly and carefully what I liked and didn't like about the food. I really don't know or care if it is authentic or not. That's a nonissue for me.

Do you find it infuriating that the Invision Software converts your "b )" to a smiley face with sunglasses on it, thus lessening the dramatic impact of your post? 

You mean it isn't some subversive DR programming to make those who disagree with the mavens look like idiots? Man, it is a good thing I love [can't mention other restaurant in this thread, but you all know what I mean - the holy of holies - over in Arlington, soon to be in Silver Spring...]. Actually, I am having a rare streak of good days (two weeks, minus one day - an ALL-DAY faculty meeting this past Saturday canyabelieveit?) and counting, and it is a gorgeous day and I have had TWO good nights of sleep in a row, so Invision wasa probably just sensing my mood!

Ellen

Trying again.

Food can be:

authentic and good

authentic and bad

unauthentic and good (except for pastrami)

unauthentic and bad

Foong Lin - unauthentic but always well-prepared. I never said it was flown in from China. I said it didn't turn our stomachs, as did the food at the restaurant over at the other thread. Any why Foong Lin and not other places? Convenience. Ironically, the place in the other thread is MORE convenient and even has some parking, but that doesn't trump bad food (authentic or not).

And by the way, my husband spent six weeks in the Yunnan province. I'm guessing that most of you who seem to think that authenticity is all that matters wouldn't get within a mile of a place that serves the kinds of foods he was served in those six weeks.

OK, so folks have continued to comment about my inability to order off a Chinese menu over in a different thread, so I am going to refer to their comments here. You all seem so dedicated to defending HEOTB that none of you have bothered to respond to the very specific comments I've made about the food.

Even more confusing, some of you have implied that I ordered Westernized Chinese food (as though that's an excuse for bad food) and some have implied that I ordered authentic Chinese dishes that I couldn't appreciate because I don't understand authentic Chinese cooking.

So let's sort it out.

1. Are you all telling me that the spicy shrimp wontons are:

a) only for people who have sophisticated Chinese palates and I should have stayed with egg rolls? - OR -

only for stupid Americans who can't be bothered to learn about Chinese food?

c) And in either case, the wontons are supposed to come in a greasy glop, and I'm just too uneducated in proper Chinese cooking to know that and to appreciate a thick film of orange grease all over my plate?

d) Why is Chinese grease good and American grease bad (many of you have commented on grease with regard to American good, and clearly think it is a bad thing).

2. Are you all telling me that chicken with scallions and ginger that has no ginger in it is:

a) only for people who have sophisted Chinese palates and I should have stayed with General Tso's chicken? - OR -

only for stupid Americans who can't be bothered to learn about Chinese food and know that Chinese ginger has no flavor?

3. Are you all telling me that because it is authentic, you LIKE having bits of bone in every bite of food? Just because something is authentic doesn't mean it is better. Foot binding is authentic, too, but I don't see you running around with mangled feet.

4. If you are all so enamored of authentic Chinese food, why aren't you all at Joe's Noodle House, eating duck tongue?

Authenticity is one thing, and if you like it, regardless of the drawbacks, more power to you. But authentic food can be prepared poorly, and I think that's the case at HEOTB. I would fully expect the Westernized food at HEOTB to be poorly prepared, too.

I've been to Foong Li in Bethesda twice, and I can't imagine spending money there again. It's mediocre Americanized chinese food at best, but at Bethesda prices.

Try going to Tony Lin's in Rockville, and asking for the Chinese menu.

I've been to HEOTB a couple of times and ordered off the regular menu, and had fabulous meals there - it's not just dim sum they do well.

I SWEAR I DID NOT ADD A SPACE AFTER THE "QUOTE" BEFORE ADDING MY REPLY ON THAT PREVIOUS POST BUT IT STILL LOOKS LIKE A TRIPLE SPACE...? I STARTED THAT ONE (AND THIS ONE) IMMEDIATELY BELOW THE WORD "QUOTE."

Well, I've been here 20.5 years and Tony Lin has gone up and down and up and down and up and down...we miss the House of Chinese Chicken. That place was quite good. And I acknowledge that Foong Li is nothing special, but it is reliable and nothing there turns my stomach.

Ellen

It seems to me, even based on your own comments, you should try HE again only order right this time.  I don't know about Fong Li, but based on reputation it's hard to imagine you couldn't do better at HE with a little care.

There is no Chinese restaurant I know of where you can get reliable help from the staff, at least not until they know you.  Having been burned so many times in the past by non-Chinese ordering the authentic dishes (by accident or whatever) and then rejecting them, they just won't suggest the good stuff to a Westerner they don't know.  They assume (correctly most of the time) that Westerners just don't like the authentic dishes.  You're only real hope is to do your research before you go, such as here on this board.  Otherwise it's hit or miss, and too often the latter.

Foong Li is not great, but it isn't nauseating. We've been all over the menu at Foong Li, trying the familiar and the not-so-familar and while we have had dishes we didn't like, none were as bad as those at HEOTB. Are you telling me that we shouldn't order spicy shrimp wonton (and if so, why?) or that they are supposed to served in a greasy glop? Are you telling me that a dish that is supposed to have ginger and scallions, but has no ginger is the fault of the Westerner who ordered? Maybe I am supposed to know that authentic Chinese ginger is flavorless? Sorry - I really think this was bad cooking, not bad choosing.

Wow. Wish I had taken the time to read DR before going to Hollywood East last night. I'd read Sietsema's review, and obviously, he is better at ordering off a Chinese menu than we are. It was an extremely disappointing meal.

Appetizers: Spicy Shrimp Wontons. The wontons and the filling were fine, but they arrived in a VERY greasy broth - very unappetizing. Crispy pork was disgusting. Big, room-temperature chunks of pork that were mostly fat with small bits of pork. Mixed in were little pieces of the crispy batter, but it is hard to imagine that this pork was ever cooked.

Main courses: Chicken with scallions and ginger. Allegedly. None of the four of us could taste any ginger whatsoever. Chicken was prepared Chinese style (put the entire chicken on a cutting board, skin, bones and all, and whack at it with a cleaver). Result is chunks of chicken with bits of bone of varying sizes. Not fun to eat. I am no fan of chicken strips, but I am also no fan of having to pick little bits of bone out of my meal (or my mouth in front of others). Together with the very pale skin remaining on the chicken (making me wonder if it had been adequately cooked), virtually all of it remained on the plate. Husband had crispy duck with pineapple. It was like eating candy, it was so nauseatingly sweet. Friend one had chicken and scallops with mango. Utterly flavorless. Friend two had something we think was called crispy chicken with sesame. I didn't try that one. She said it was good.

Result: will never return. Will stick with Fong Li (Bethesda) for sit down and Cheong's (Bethesda) for delivery.

Ellen

Bloody hell. That is a pisspoor way to end the week. Well, better warned than to suffer the agony of driving up there on Sunday only to discover the bad news for myself. Not that I thought it would last forever.

Ellen

I don't think anyone is claiming that they are the greatest burger.  Merely a decent option if you are in the mood for a regular burger. I tend to get good fries at the Springfield location, but that is only 7 out of 10 times.

]Out of curiosity which location did you go to?  It unfortunately makes a difference.

Oh, dear. It was in Virginia. I have lived in the DC metro area for 20 years. Virginia is that terrifying place across the river where Glebe crosses itself and they shut down access to major roads at rush hour, and you can't get anywhere at all from the Parkway without going all the way down to the airport and returning via the northbound lanes. And where they don't tell you that you are getting into an HOV only situation until you can't turn around or exit. So I can't really say where we were. I THINK we were on Rte 1 south of Alexandria. We were going towards Barnes Furniture.

Whose burger are you comparing it with? BTW, speaking for myself, greasy is good. The opposite is dry.

To me, the opposite of dry is juicy. I have had a very good burger at Black's Bar and Kitchen. And a stupendous burger at a little dive just north of Johns Hopkins University in Roland Park (Baltimore's answer to Chevy Chase, hon), called Alonso's. I happen to love dives (RTS is too upscale for me!)

EYHO: Since 1938 Alonso's has catered to stressed-out executives, party-hearty college students, and everyone in-between. Its very essence screams nostalgia; Alonso's is history personified. Wood-paneled walls evoke '70s-style club basements; the servers' beehive 'dos take you back to stereotypical Bawlmer gals who crack wise and call you "Hon." A wide array of interesting curiosities decorate the entire establishment: the "original" Jurassic Park dinosaur egg, Civil War paraphernalia, handwritten letters from Martin Luther King Jr. For nostalgia alone, Alonso's is a great place to throw back a few drinks with friends at the end of the day. Unfortunately nostalgia doesn't change the fact that the food is not very good.

We opted to eat in to sample the tavern's famed meal-in-a-basket ($9.25), which features Alonso's jumbo bacon cheeseburger with French fries. Baltimore has heaped praise on this beef-on-a-bun classic for eons--City Paper named it "Best Hamburger" last year (Best of Baltimore, 9/17). I thought it worthwhile to find out how other food fares as well.

Regarding the burger: First of all, its size is alarming--the jumbo is too gigantic for human consumption. With bacon, cheese, lettuce, tomato, onion, and other garnishes on top of the huge beef patty, the sandwich can't even be picked up, let alone bitten. Make sure you use a fork and knife--we saw a few idiots using their hands and apparently trying (unsuccessfully) to inhale the damned thing. (One man lost control, and his fresh burger ended up square in the middle of his khakis.) Another hint: Bring along a group of people to share the burger-eating experience. Our party of four made ingesting the jumbo beef sandwich I ordered a group project, and we still had some left over.

However hard the burger is to handle, the critics are right: It is delicious. For the life of me I will never understand how Alonso's cooks a burger that big perfectly to order while maintaining the succulent, juicy beef flavor. Alonso's truly does have the best burgers in town.

We were eager to try Five Guys several years ago, before they showed up in Maryland. We happened to drive past one in Virginia, made a quick u-turn.

What on earth is all the fuss about? We had a greasy burger with very little flavor, and limp, soggy fries. We didn't finish the burger or the fries.

This place is barely mediocre.

Ellen

Bo Brooks, hon. Even though they are now in chi chi Canton (just below Baltimore's Inner Harbor, in an old warehouse district that is now upscale), and not up on "Bulare" (Belair) Road in the truest bluest collar haven you ever saw, and even though you don't squeeze thru the narrow, smoky bar serving Natty Bo on tap to get to the dining room, they still have big, meaty crabs steamed to perfection and the most ethereal, batter-dipped onion rings in the world.

I've heard great things about A-1 in Crab Haven in the Essex area of Baltimore, but have never been there.

Ellen

Maybe before Classics opens officially to the public, there might be a shake-down night or two, and we DRs can offer to be the guinea pigs...I mean really, it would be such a sacrifice, but for such a good cause.

Ellen

OK. I can't take any more of this. At first, I was really happy for all of you, but now I am just in absolute agony. I had to go to freaking Boston for a freaking stupid meeting on Sunday.

So a pox on all of you. I am going over to Colesville Road RIGHT NOW. I am going to take a tent, an iPod and a hibachi. I will be first in line when Classics opens.

Ellen

PS - you all know I am kidding, right? Except for the part about camping out on Colesville Road. Come by and visit me. Take pity! Bring your leftovers from Sunday.

All dates good for us.

Ellen

I'd like to ask a question that seems pertinent to this thread.

We are not campers, in part because I find most restaurants too noisy for conversation and relaxation, and in part because it isn't right to overstay our welcome.

However, I do like to have an after-dinner drink or dessert. More often than not, the waiter never asks if we'd like to have one or the other. The waiter just brings the check.

That makes me feel awkward. Should I ask to see the dessert menu (did he get a call from my mother telling him that I don't "need" that dessert?)? Am I inconveniencing him by ordering an after-dinner drink, and forcing him to re-total the check? Or do they think that the extra tip they would get from the slightly larger bill isn't as much as they would get from turning the table over? All I know is that it can mar a very nice meal to feel that the waiter has determined that I should eat or drink no more...

I would be very interested to know how the restaurant owners feel about this. Do they know that their waiters are doing this?

Ellen

Le Lion D'Or. Ate there twice - once for lunch, once for dinner. Just incredible. I can't walk out of the DuPont Circle metro without thinking about those two meals...

Tanh Tahn (Wheaton). But you all knew that because I mention it every chance I get.

And while I can't honestly say I ever ate there...the Crow Bar.

Ellen

Since our beloved Tanh Tanh (Wheaton) disappeared, we have been going to My Le on Georgia Avenue in Silver Spring. It is good and satisfying but lacks the magic of Tanh Tanh (oh please. someone find out where the Tanh Tanh chef has gone!). Anyway, My Le's broth is a bit too beefy and somewhat too salty.

As for downtown, if you know anyone who works at the World Bank, try the WB cafeteria for pho. It is pretty good.

Ellen

The WashPost is undergoing all sorts of angst about circulation, including discussions of what I call "dumbing down" ala NYT. They deny that's what it is about, but hey - if the public is dumbing down, what choice do they have? OTOH, the dumbed-downs aren't reading the paper or caring about the news, full stop.

I like some aspects of the Food Section. Particularly Robert Wolke's column. As a scientist (though not a chemist), I love when he debunks some silly food claim. Though I sure wish he'd support the "calories leak out of broken cookies" theory!

Ellen

This has been a valuable history lesson for me. I likely wouldn't have seen Joe's excellent essay had this thread not come up.

Last I looked, the U.S. Constitution says CONGRESS shall make no law...this is Senor Rockwell's dining room. He makes the rules.

I've been here only short time, but long enough to form the impression that this is a great board, which is a tribute to the owners/moderators (who are indeed moderate) and the members, who are knowledgeable and wicked funny.

Ellen

I regularly commit a felony (or is it a misdemeanor?) by driving the 2 miles into the District to buy wine (though now that I know where Jake and Rick sell their stash of fine South African wines, I'll be crossing the bridge on a regular basis). Yes, I know there are some shops in MoCo that sell wine and beer, but then I still have to make a separate trip to buy spirits.

I don't get it. One of the richest, most sophisticated counties in the country, and they have this arcane government-controlled system of selling liquor.

I have no idea if the Advisory Board is even tasked with assessing this idiot policy. I guess the County Council doesn't get enough complaints to worry about it, and that in turn is probably because we're all driving into DC, VA, or other Maryland counties. I have to go to Arlington anyway (I hear a steak calling my name...).

Ellen

After years of "on my list" I finally went to La Colline a few weeks ago. The food was wonderful. I won't bother going into detail, since it won't do anyone any good now.

The service - at the table - was quite nice.

HOWEVER, talk about making guests feel unwelcome. We waited and waited and waited at the front hallway, looking into the dining room and the bar for a maitre d' (boy, that looks so funny - but I think it is right). No one showed up.

Eventually, we walked into the bar and asked the bartender if anyone could seat us. A man standing at the bar, yakking to others as though he was a customer, said rather sarcastically that he would. I sarcastically asked him "well, if you are sure you want us to have dinner here...we were beginning to think that perhaps you weren't interested in our business."

It was a Tuesday night and the place was dead.

Maybe we just weren't important enough? I don't usually eat out on Capitol Hill, so I don't know if this is typical.

Ellen

Definitely the pho at the much-missed Tanh Tanh in Wheaton (oh, why did you leave us?). We called it "magic soup." Cured WHATEVER ailed you...I mean, I grew up with the original, home made Jewish chicken soup, but the pho at Tanh Tanh - no drugs could come close to the bliss and well-being of the Tanh Tanh pho. I will offer a million bowl reward to anyone who can tell me where the Tanh Tanh chef has gone.

OK, now I am really sorry to torture all of you, but for my father's 80th birthday, I picked up the phone and ordered from Russ and Daughters:

A pound of the most sublime salmon (nova, of course)

A half pound of melt-in-your mouth sable

3 nice-sized pieces of smoked, peppered mackerel flavored with orange and lemon

A pint of kippered herring in cream sauce

REAL, fresh cream cheese (not the white gummy stuff they sell in stores)

Make-you-cry-they are so good ruggelach

Now this is comfort food...takes you back to the days when smoked fish was cheap, not a delicacy, and you had this every Sunday....

(OK, well, if you were a New Yorker...for all the great food in DC, there is one ethnic gastronomy that is sorely lacking)

Can't believe no one has mentioned Kraft mac-and-cheese, which of course you eat right out of the pot...

Wow. The people on this board are just great. I knew I'd found a home when I saw all the rants about adding an "e" to words like "grill" - that drives me batty! I too have often joked about pronouncing the "e" just to show people how silly it is.

So, on Black's Market and Bistro - when I called, I spoke to someone who sounded like a teenager and the hostess was a teenager. I doubt it was Christine, as it sounds, from your description, as though she is an adult.

I did call the next day, and I left my name, number, and a phone message saying that I'd like to talk to the manager, briefly explaining why. I never got a call back.

On the steak sauce - at the risk that Michael Landrumm will never let me in the door again, let me explain that I would NEVER put steak sauce on a steak. Any steak, not that I would ever eat a steak that wasn't blessed by Michael Landrumm anyway. No, steak sauce goes only on burgers, and I've never had Heinz 57. We have a variety of steak sauces in this house - I actually love to put a little bit of Busha Brownee's Jerk Sauce on my burgers.

I just can't fathom why they don't banish catsup...if they are so committed to having the food eaten the way they want it eaten. Surely catsup is at least as vile as steak sauce? I mean, it is sugar (actually high fructose corn syrup), vinegar, and tomatoes.

If anything can mask the taste of food, surely that can?

By the way, we've also been told at Black's Kitchen that we can only have the burgers if we sit outside. They aren't on the menu (at least they weren't at the time we stopped eating there). We were told that they won't serve them inside. So, if it is too cold or too hot to eat outside, you better want to order something else.

To leave you all with a happy food idea - try the Tropical Forbidden Black Rice at Whole Food Market. Happy mouth! Happy mouth!

This is related to a post of mine on the thread for Black's.

"I wanted to let the owners here know that I have tried speaking up about a problem, but I'm now reluctant to do so. Why? Because I don't WANT a freebie. I want to get the sense that the management actually cares about the problem and will do something about it."

As long as you mention the problem/concern after you pay it is clear that you are not asking for anything.  On some issues, not every of course, management or the owner (s) may be totally unaware that a problem even exists.  When it is a restaurant that you otherwise like or have had good experiences at in the past I believe it is always worthwhile to bring it to their attention.  At least let them-the owners and/or managers-be the ones directly responsible for your not returning.

Hi, Joe -

We left Black Market Bistro and went elsewhere. The next day, I phoned, but got only an answering machine. I left my name and number and a brief message, explaining that I wanted to speak to a manager. Never got a call back. I disagree that talking to the manager after you pay tells them that you don't want a freebie. They might think you are hitting them up for a gift certificate for your next meal.

OK, I have to run - I now have a long list of restaurants to try, thanks to all of you!

Ellen