dgreen

Look here.

Despite hearing good things about the Great American chain of restaurants from Siestema and others around, I'd never gone until last night due to a lack of a car in the area. Being one of those guys who occasionally likes some of the facets of a chain, I was really pleased with my first visit to Coastal Flats.

First of all, I know its been said before, but those little fried balls of cheese-filled dough... While the rest of the meal was really good, give me a beer and a basket full of these and I'd be good to go. The crab and shrimp fritters had nicely-sized pieces of seafood inside and a sauce that wasn't too timid with the spice. As for the entree, I had the shrimp and grits. A few moments before my food arrived, a waitress walked by with a plate, and I remarked to my companion "hmmm, I'm glad I didn't order that." Well, it turned out I had. I was expecting a more traditional dish of the "wet" grits, what came was more of a polenta cake-style presentation. Luckily it tasted a lot better than I was expecting, and I turned out to really like it. Add in the chocolate waffle for dessert and very good service, and I think I've found my new chain of choice.

I love the shrimp and grits. I believe it's also at Carlyle.

BTW, the dish is named "Sauteed Shrimp & Creamy Grit Cakes", so I'm not sure why you weren't expecting a grit cake.

I'm with crackers on this one. My kids are 10 and 7, we've been at every family friendly restaurant anywhere at one time or another, and I've NEVER seen free refills on milk and juice. If they order a soft drink, yes, but not milk and juice.

My kids are not of soda-drinking age. I think the only thing they ever order is milk, juice, or lemonade. Now, I really can't say where the juice or lemonade come from. Lemonade is almost certainly from a fountain at most places. Juice, not sure. But, I honestly have never paid for a refill. Not sure why my experience is so different from others.

Let's just say I've done more than my share of time in establishments located in suburban shopping malls with animatron rodents and other furry critters as their theme. Chuck e Cheese does not give free milk or juice refills.

Luckily I avoid Chuck e Cheese.

Yes, but that's not really a direct analogy. AF doesn't hand out free anything - no free while-you're-waiting nibbles at the table, and no refills on anything but tap water or iced tea, both of which are things that have an incredibly low per-unit cost.

Oh, I was only using chips and salsa as an analogy about expectations. Mexican places tend to offer complimentary chips and salsa, thus the expectation. AF does not appear, to a first-timer, as anything different than any other restaurant in any other strip mall in any other NoVa suburb. At first glance, I'd expect similar things there as other restaurants of "its kind." At first, "its kind" is defined very broadly for a first-timer.

Perhaps someone who's been to one of the AFs someplace else, or the gentleman who's representing the chain, can speak to this, but I get the impression that it's a company-wide thing that if you want refills, you pay for them.

I think so, too. It may even be a geographical thing. I remember being in Cape Cod about 8 years ago and a few places did not offer free refills on sodas. I found that odd at the time.

Since they don't have a fountain soda machine, this isn't surprising - pretty much anyplace that doesn't serve fountain drinks of any kind has the same policy. If they've got to open a bottle or a can to serve you a drink, then you pay for it, because they've had to pay for it, whether they're way out here in Loudoun County, downtown, Old Town, or wherever.

And I think the only roadblock is in understanding that is their situation. As I said, AF's general appearence is going to be that they are similar to other places until you go there and realize it is different. (Or until you get the bill and realize it is different. ) They seem to want to be different, but that isn't easily recognizable by simply walking in.

Sure, you get free refills at larger, more established, or multi-location chain-type places, because they're doing the kind of volume across the whole chain that allows them to write off the cost of those refills - plus, with a fountain soda delivery system, the cost of the refills is covered by the $2 you've paid for the soda/juice/whatever in the first place. Even with milk, they're writing that cost off against what they're making on the other beverages. At this point, AF's economies of scale are not such that they're going to be able to do that - it literally is going to impact their bottom line if they start handing out free refills to every person who walks in the door, or even every child. Remember, they've barely been open 3 months.

Good points. My only point would be that it's the larger, more established, or multi-location chain-type places that tend to establish expectations. If I drive through Ashburn and eat at a different joint every night, I'm going to mainly hit chain places. Let's say I eat at 10 chain places before coming across AF. All my experience is going to lead me to believe my kid's second milk will not be an extra $2. That comes from the 10 places I just ate at and the fact that AF really doesn't appear to anything different at first glance.

Yes, it's mildly irritating. Should they rethink some of their policies? (Like only having single-serving bottles of water, even if everyone at the table wants sparkling water. Or putting some non-salad appetizers on the menu.) Probably. And when they've got a year or so of business under their belt, they might be able to do that. It's early days. It's good pizza. If the beverage thing is that big of an issue, takeout is always an option.

I can definitely see how I've made some believe otherwise, but I really don't see this as being anything more than mildly irritating either. I'm not looking for them to change anything. They can do as they please. I now understand why they do what they do. Thanks to the conversation here, I get why they charge more for their beverages.

My only real argument here is about expectations.

Like many things in the restaurant business, as in other businesses, the cup of juice doesn't exist in a vacuum. The juice has a cost, the cup has a cost, the employee who must fill it has multiple costs: pay, disability, insurance, social security taxes, the rent and all other associated costs plus the ridiculous amount of liability insurance restaurants are forced to carry have an impact on the price, too. I think the key here is to determine what is a reasonable expectation versus an unreasonable one. A bottomless cup of moo doesn't seem reasonable somehow.

I agree the question is: What is a reasonable expectation? So far, I seem to be in the minority.

Let's try this as an analogy: Do you expect complimentary chips and salsa at a Mexican restaurant?

I think we need to take a step back in this discussion.

I'm new to this MB. (Maybe that explains a lot.) I quickly realized I am different from the frequent posters here. I've never heard of many of the restuarants many of you praise. (I am glad to be learning, though. I wish I found this board when both my wife and I were working and we had no kids and frequently ate out.) However, while I'm not the typical poster on this board, I appear to be much closer to the typical resident in Ashburn than some of you. In fact, I think I've read some posts that would indicate many of you would admit to not representing an average suburbanite. There's an obvious disconnect here when I see several posters have different expectations and one even says that "many places" only offer free refills on ice tea and coffee.

From my experience in NoVa, here is what I expect to be a free refill:

Adult sodas and ice tea. I'm not a big coffee drinker, so I have no expectation there. Certain root beers tend to not be free refills.

All kids drinks.

If I'm in an upscale place, I have no expectations regarding drink refills. If I'm in DC, I'll expect some differences just because things tend to be different "in the city." However, I'm going to guess that the vast majority of restaurants in a typical NoVa neighborhood are going to be along the lines of my above expectations.

I'm curious if the expectations contrary to mine are from a DC or suburban state of mind.

I raised two kids and I'm not sure why anyone would expect anything free. It's nice that some places provide free refills, but that hardly seems like a fundamental right.

"Raised" as in they are grown up now and your experiences are from 20 years ago? If so, things have changed. I'm 31. I can remember a time when even adult sodas weren't free refills in many places. For a while, I had no expectation of receiving free refills on sodas. Today, I'd be absolutely shocked to be charged for my Coke refills. It's now an expectation.

Again, the only reason I expect free refills is because all my experience as a parent is that my kids get free refills. I don't expect a free refill on my flatbread because I have absolutely no experience with free food refills. It's simply not part of the culture. That would be an insanely unrealistic expectation.

Similarly, to bring this all back to AF, I expect to have a great flatbread next time I go to AF. The more I eat there and have good food, the more solid my expectations will be and the more amazed I'll be when my expectations are not met.

Restaurant margins are indeed tight and, with high fixed costs, those few extra dollars of gross revenue are not insignificant. Besides, if they're giving away free drinks, they're dinging you somewhere else to make up for it, so it all comes out in the wash.

On the flip side, by charging $2 for a kids drink and $2 for each refill, they're losing a few extra dollars because I'll order water. And, more importantly, if someday we're going out to dinner and we want to get something other than water, they'll lose the $40 my family would have paid for dinner.

I'm not expecting AF to change to meet my wants. I'm am a HUGE fan of the free market and they can do whatever they want. I just think my opinion on refills and $8 for kids drinks is probably somewhat in line with those of their target customers.

Could someone please enlighten me about this? Are we talking about a single re-fill, which could easily be built into the price of the drink, or unlimited re-fills of milk, juice, etc.?

My EXPECTATION is unlimited free refills on kids drinks. That's my expectation because, in four years as a parent, I've never experienced anything else. Heck, I've been to plenty of places that don't charge us at all for kids drinks, but I certainly don't expect that.

Imagine the damage a family of 6 could do to the bottom line of a place like this.

I really don't think they'd do much damage. When we're talking kids drinks, they come in maybe an 8 oz. cup. My kids rarely drink more than two of those. Are profit margins really that tight at restaurants that an extra 8 oz. of milk per child is going to close the doors?

Now, AF, I believe, only offers organic juices and milk, so that's different. Maybe that is a bigger hit to their bottom line.

In a suburban pizza place, I would expect to see free refills of fountain sodas and ice tea, but I don't recall ever getting free kiddie refills on milk or juices. My kids each could easily down a quart of milk or more at one sitting, so if restaurants are moving toward free refills of milk, I'm all for it! (Disney World just started doing this at their table service restaurants, so maybe it's a bandwagon worth jumping on.)

Interesting. I honestly can't remember one other place I've had to pay for refills for kids.

Clay, thanks for the response. I look forward to more flatbreads (and water ) in Ashburn.

Took the family to AF tonight. First the good...

The flatbreads were excellent. Due to my wife's desire to not eat cute little baby lamb's, we skipped the special (lamb sausage) and went with the Virginia Sausage. Loved the sundried tomatoes and caramelized onions. There was a nice sweetness in certain bites. The sausage and mushrooms were also extremely tasty. As everyone else says, the crust is perfect.

We ordered the kids the "cheap" flatbread (Cheese and Herb). I liked that they brought it out first, when it was ready. The kids were able to get started and it was a nice appetizer for us. It was like a REALLY good cheese bread. With minimal ingredients, you could easily taste each one, especially the garlic oil.

While the prices were high, I thought the flatbreads were certainly worth it. Now the bad...

Drinks. I see Clay addressed this concerning Coke and Pepsi products. That's not my problem. My wife and I decided to order water anyways to save $5. Then there were the kids drinks. We have 3 kids, ages 4, 2, and a few weeks. i'm guessing we aare the target customer.

The waitress asked us what the kids want to drink. I asked what drinks they have for kids. She said apple juice and milk. So, one kid ordered milk, the other apple juice. They came in cute little kids cups with animals on them and we'll have those in our house for a while and get good use out of them. So far, so good.

They were both somewhat thirsty and needed refills. So, we asked for refills. We got refills. Then the bill arrives. Kids drinks are $2? That seems expensive, but not a big deal. Live and learn, I guess What is a big deal, to me at least, is that we were charged for the refills and were not told about it. That's right, we paid $8 for kids drinks! That's ridiculous. If you want to be in Ashburn because of families, then don't charge us for refills on expensive kids' drinks. It's not like their downing 5 cups of juice. I don't think a toddler is going to put you under by taking advantage of free refills.

At the very least, tell us. It is expected, especially in the burbs, that refills are free. If that's not the way you want to run things, that's cool, but tell us. Anything short of having the waiter clearly say so, NOBODY in a community like Ashburn is going to assume they have to pay for kids' refills.

Anyways, rant over. We'll definitely return. But, the kids will have water, thank you.

New Special:

Coming Week of August 4th - Fields of Athenry lamb sausage, Stone Manor Farm organic sweet yellow peppers, Wheatland Farm organic scallions, Oak Spring Dairy derby cheese , Green Alchemy Farms fresh rosemary, our own organic tomato sauce, sundried tomatoes + herbs,

What are the waits like, especially on the weekend? Can I show up around 6:30 and expect to be seated by 7:00?

RaisaB said:

Tony's also has two restaurants in Manassas and one in Centreville. They are all owned by brothers, who are always at work in the kitchen. It is the best pizza in our area.

Ciro's is the Centreville location. According to their web site, they also have a place in Stone Ridge (new community out 50, just past South Riding). I'm not familiar with the Manassas one.

For some reason, my wife likes Ciro's over Tony's, but they're the exact same place as far as I can tell. I prefer Tony's just because I was going to them for years before I found Ciro's. I live right in the middle of both of them, so they each get our business.

The other place I like for pizza is Havabite in Old Town Fairfax.

Additionally, I have Dan's directions to get there from the toll road but am unsure how to head that direction on the toll road from the airport. I know that's a silly question, but the last time I drove to Dulles before this trip was over a decade ago. I tried to identify the route when I was there dropping him off at the beginning of the trip but couldn't figure it out.

I think there's a Dulles Greenway exit before the RT 28 exit. If not, you can exit onto 28N then onto the Greenway. But, that would have you cutting across three lanes of traffic in about 1/4 mile to the exit on the left.

Map: That little road running N/S just west of 28 and between those parking lots is probably what you'd use.

Depending on where you live in Northern VA you should also visit American Flatbread in Ashburn which IS worth the trip or Roberto Donna's Bebo in Crystal City who I believe currently has the D. C. area's best pizza. Unlike MANY others on here I am not a fan of Comet. For myself Two Amys' pizza margherita is their best.

Yeah, I think we'll try AF next. We're in western Fairfax, so it's closer. I picked Amy's for Sunday lunch because I really wanted some donuts. They look really good on the web page.

I've heard AF is really family friendly. Well, I thought the staff at Amy's did a great job of making a family with three young children comfortable. They moved some tables around us to give a little extra space and gladly cleaned up the water I spilled trying to keep my acrobatic daughter from falling out her chair. My kids usually behave fairly well in restaurants, but I'm usually a little nervous going into a crowed urban restaurant because I assume they'd rather not have young kids there. I feel like my kids need to be near perfect. Well, they didn't make me feel that way at all.

Went here for the first time yesterday. We probably had about a 15 minute wait. Not too bad, but not too good either considering we did this with three young kids and they were hungry after the 45 minute drive from NOVA.

Anyways, I had the Norcia. Good stuff. Wife was all ready for a pizza until she saw the soft shell crab panini on the specials. It was good, too. Although, I wouldn't really call it a panini. It was barely grilled.

My master plan was to get some donuts to go at the end of lunch, but they had run out by then. Next time (and there will be a next time), I'll have to get them first.

I'm new to this site (but have lived in NOVA my whole life) and I'm learning a lot.

Paris

I've been to the Ashby Inn in Paris, VA (about 20 minutes east of Winchester at 50 and 17). It was a while ago, so I don't even remember what I ordered, but I do remember liking it. thread

Also, when I'm out that way (Linden, VA - exit 13 on 66), I'll hit The Apple House for apple cinnamon donuts.

My Williamsburg rotation

Cheese Shop: For the sammies. I usually get the VA Ham and turkey combo with cheddar and the house dressing.

Pierce's Pit BBQ

Green Leaf Cafe

Blue Talon Bistro: Went there for the first time my last time down there. It will be part of our rotation.

Whaling Company: Nothing great, but I haven't found any great seafood places.

Casa Maya: Again, nothing great, but I get in the mood for Mexican every once in a while.

Aromas: I've had some decent fondues there and it's one of the few places open on a Sunday night.

Those are my usuals. Haven't been to Captain George's or Trellis in a while. I'd love to try Fat Canary, but I keep forgetting to call far enough in advance to get a reservation.

This week from Great Country Farms in Bluemont, VA:

1/2 pint cherry tomatoes

4 "regular" tomatoes (not sure what they're called)

4 ears of corn

1 squash

2 green peppers

10 smallish peaches

3 beets

1 chive plant to add to our herb garden

That's half a share. We share a full share with some friends.

Not sure how other CSA farms work, but ours allows a certain amount of U-Pick to members each week. This week is a couple pints of blackberries, a few pounds of peaches, and some sunflowers.

Also, what we love most since we have kids, the farm has animals, slides, swings, hay rides, and a big jumping pillow that we can use as part of our membership. It also has a Country Store for the wife. It's almost impossible for me to leave the Country Store without buying some kettle corn.

Wife and I tried Cee tonight. I'm not a huge Asian fan, but my wife raves about Thai so we gave it a try.

First of all, we ordered Thai Iced Tea. That was possibly the worst thing I've ever tasted. Since I've never had it before, I can't tell you whether it's just that I don't like Thai Iced Tea or that they don't make it well at Cee. Either way, I don't think I can ever even try it again. I can still taste it.

For an appetizer, we had the Jacketed Shrimp. We liked it and it was great to have something to start the all-important process of getting that tea out of my mouth.

We ordered Pad Khing Sod with beef and Pad Thai Shrimp. The Pad Khing Sod was really good. The shrimp were overcooked in the Pad Thai Shrimp.

We arrived at 5 and were the only people there. One other couple arrived around 5:15. We left around 6 and still nobody else had arrived. The place was absolutely dead. I know it was early, but I would expect a few more people.