jondagle

On 2/21/2018 at 3:57 PM, funkyfood said:

In the same vein as the above, it boggles my mind that there is not, to my knowledge, a single third wave coffee shop in all of downtown Bethesda. First place to open there will print money.

First, I hope that's true... Sadly, based on my casual observations, I suspect the economics of a third wave cafe make business rather challenging. Requires (1) ability to get staff that cares about quality coffee, (2) clientele that is discerning in taste and wiling to pay more for coffee (or simply wants to patronize a place like a third wave cafe), (3) sufficient volume of such customers to cover rent and wages (etc). 

Second, did you eliminate Quartermaine as not "third wave" or not "down town." (Not that I'd rave about them; have only a passing awareness of them)

(I'm obliged to note the sad state of quality coffee in Old Town as well)

PS: posted to the Java Shack thread too based on recent visit. 

I miss Dale, but Commonwealth seems to have taken up the reins of Java Shack successfully. Was there two weeks ago. Very nice espresso (well, macchiato actually). Staff was very pleasant. Still had somewhat neighborhood vibe, which I say as someone who is not from the neighborhood. Also, I think Commonwealth does a great job with their iced coffees. They have at least two different ones on nitro tap--I think 4 total? I used to get them the push carts they operated in Crystal City, before the brick-n-mortar locations. 

Commonwealth seems to have a good training program, but I would agree with DaveO that their drip coffees are not my favorite. I am generally not a fan of the trend in lighter and lighter roasts. (Not all Commonwealth roasts are light by any means!)

4 hours ago, Lydia R said:

In May 2010, Lola007 posted about Il Canale in a couple of threads. She positively compared it to 2 Amys and Luzzo's in NYC.

I can't compare Luzzo's but crust compares with 2 Amy's. 2 Amy's has some more creative items. The antipasti however, is no contest: small plates at 2 Amy's blow away what we had and saw (including a good portion of fried calamari) at Il Canale. Again, the pizza seems quite good at Il Canale -- traditional Italian. I'll go back. 

14 hours ago, DonRocks said:

Jon, go to the Dining Guide - it's there. I just tried a Google search myself, and couldn't find this thread.

Don, no one "goes to links" anymore. That's so 2010.   

4 hours ago, Kev29 said:

Jon, go to the Dining Guide - it's there. I just tried a Google search myself, and couldn't find this thread.

Silly me. I just used the forum search bar when I was on my phone. I should have though of Google. I do that all the time on other sites.  

Dined at the bar for happy hour yesterday. Read about Il Canele in a pizza thread here, but DR’s search let me down! Someone pointed me to this thread.

The pizza was pretty good. I won’t say amazing, but good. It compares favorably with traditional Italian pizzas. Happy hour at the bar is half price draft beer, wine and cocktails. There are some good beers and nice wines. A salad and caprese were marginal — leaning toward terrible for the price. Oddly the mozzarella was both declicous and copious, but the tomatoes were neither very ripe or flavorful. Staff was friendly and attentive.

A nice alternative to “trendy” pizza places.

Thank you, dwt. The pizza was pretty good. I won’t say amazing, but good. Happy hour at the bar is half price beer, wine and cocktails. There are some good beers and nice wines. A salad and caprese were marginal — terrible for the price. Oddly the mozzarella was both declicous and copious, but the tomatoes were neither very ripe or flavorful. Staff was friendly and attentive.

Apparently the mobile search for DR doesn’t work. I tried several times and got no results. 🧐 

Ya know, I’m just so happy there are so many good and even “fair” pizza places in the area. Time was the only options were Paradiso (one location) and 2 Amys. 

I think I’ll try Il Canale tonight. I can’t believe there’s not already a thread. 

On 1/31/2018 at 5:36 AM, porcupine said:

The only places I've tried that make good ones correctly, consistently, are GS, Filter (Dupont location only), and The Wydown. If you try those or know of other places, report back, please! 

I agree that Filter and the Wydown are great—not just for cortados. And I think Eye St Filter is fine too. Perhaps I’m not as demanding? Though I would not have thought it possible...  😬

So I tried Grace St again. The problem’s not so much the preparation, but the roast. They are solidly on the light-roast bandwagon. I contend that trend has jumped the shark. Or should never have been a thing. Light roasts tend to be sour. I once was quite an expert on espresso, but I’ve never pulled, nor indeed “had” a lightly roasted espresso that’s not sour. Maybe that works for an espresso (solo) or latte, but I find it awful as a macchiato or cortado. That’s just my taste, sorry to say. Even Blue Bottle has gone lighter, but I’ve never had a sour pull there. 

Besides, since I am mainly in Alex-Arl I’m generally pleased with the coffee in DC. The better places are a step above what I find west of the river.  

I find that places are not entirely consistent with what they make as cortado, flat white, etc. I would describe a cortado as a very similar to a cappuccino, with milk at a little lower temp and less froth, almost always in a glass of some kind (like a kamakazi glass). This is a good approximation. 

On 2/9/2018 at 11:51 AM, DaveO said:

I had my first cortado the other day.  At its most elemental level what is so special about it and what should I be looking for?? (or did you describe that taste element above?)

Yeah, not to extend the discussion in wrong thread, but....

Grace St seems like it should be better. Looks like they have all the right kit — pricey kit! My cortado looked good but was sour.  This is coming from someone who is not impressed with the recent trend of lighter espresso roasts. Still, I think this was an example of a lighter espresso roast done wrong.

Now, on the other hand, I have never had any coffee beverage at Blue Bottle (any location) that I did not think it was exceptional. (I do find their “Bella Donovan” a bit too dark for my taste.)

Thanks for staring this thread. It's excellent (the coffee and espresso); among the best in the DC area. The vibe is a tiny bit "over-wrought" IMHO, but BB is amazing. I've been to many of their SF locations (most notably the Mint St location) and Oakland roasters (when that was the only roastery, perhaps 7 years ago?). They're also in NYC and have a roastery in Brooklyn, I believe. BB  was founded by James Freeman (when his hair wasn't all grey). He has a great book on coffee, the name of which escapes me. I

I recently went to the new-ish "Grace Street Coffee" south of the canal. I had a cortado which was among the worst I've ever had. Terribly bright, with no sweetness. They seem to be serious about coffee but I couldn't recommend it based on my visit. Baked n Wired or BB would be a much better choice. 

BTW, hidden in that it's not on M or Wisconsin? It's next to (to the right and behind) Dean and Deluca. I think it's been open since November or December. 

I should note that BB was acquired by Nestle at the end of 2017. Still excellent. 

Sometime in the past year Market to Market changed their prosciutto to a marginally adequate domestic brand. Dry and salty with a bland favor, it's negatively affected their subs. Well, the ones with "prosciutto," anyway. We used to buy sliced prosciutto there occasionally. Now I could not recommend it.  

Just two weeks ago, I had a sub, Chinoto, and and a delicious pastry here, but didn't think to post. I'm told the pastry was delivered direct from Milano (I think). All excellent. I'd say the sub was not quite as good as The Italian Store, but better than Del Ray's Market to Market or the Italian deli on Fairfax St (name escapes me). Told me they make the bread in the store. It has sesame seeds, which isn't Italian in my experience, but was still great.

Incidentally, since M2M of Del Ray changed ownership I think the quality has slipped, to wit: they now use a domestic prosciutto which is salty and bland compared to the genuine article (or even well made domestics). 

@justusf81: I am very sorry; I am well aware of that. I meant to say "NRG seems to think that's a good direction, too." That was careless of me.

I look forward to visiting Live Oak and wish you all the best. But, I also wish this "southern inspired" trend passes soon. 

Ok, I have to revise my comments. Today I had the cold-brew nitro coffee at Junction. It was very good. Sadly they don't seem to have glassware for "dining-in" so you just get a standard plastic to-go cup. I sampled some baked goods that were great, too (ham&cheese croissant and chia-something bar). On my next visit I will brave the espresso world. 

I noticed they have 4 or 5 varieties of Commonwealth Joe coffee on display. Maybe they just brew the wrong one. 

Went to the new Junction Bakery & Bistro at Mt Vernon Ave & Monroe in Alexandria. They serve Comonwealth Joe coffee. I had the drip. Do not put on this list! Not terrible, but not good. Will sample the espresso service soon.

I hear many people are buying a baked item here and then going to Swing's for *real* coffee. Not that I endorse this kind of thing....

In other news, over the past two months, I've had good experinces at Killer ESP with both machiattos and lattes. Both very nice. I now endorse them for the list!

Thanks for the info. Just what we need: more pricey "southern cuisine." Very disapointing. NRG seems to think that's a good direction. We lost all the Austin Grills to southern-inspired incarnations. Now this. Meh. 

This trend cannot end soon enough. 

Running by the former Monroe's location at the corner of Commonwealth and Monroe, kinda in Del Ray, I saw a sign hanging out front for the forthcoming restaurant "Live Oak." Don't have any more info. I was surprised not to see any info here!

Hope they do well!

I've not rented commercial real estate, but this situation looks quite unlikely to change. By area, a huge part of this boundary is non-commercial and non-inhabited: The Mall, grounds of The Capitol, The Capitol and other federal offices, Union Station and area, parks, parking lots, etc. This is nothing like the residential and office areas where we see more indie coffeehouses. So not only is much of this area off-limits to a possible coffeehouse, but there aren't people in much of the area. Even people who are there -- in The Capitol and related buildings, would have to schlep a long way for a coffee. Longer than would make for reliable customers. Your boundaries carefully exclude Chinatown and Ebenezers. They're only "just across the street" from offices inside your boundary. I think there are probably coffee-deserts more wanting for a coffeehouse than this area. Food cart or truck is probably the best option, and I'll be that's not allowed anywhere were it would make good sense.

The lack of 3rd wave or other good coffee is always lamentable, however!

I sort of agree with Don about not taking it off, but I'm not sure what bar has to be cleared to get on the list. If it's just an indi shop that isn't bad, I'd keep them on (along with Misha's). If quality consistency has anything to do with it, then not sure...

Misha's makes good, darkly roasted coffee, if you like that kind of thing. I haven't tried an espresso there for years because they were unable to make a decent one between 2001 and 2009. Every one I had there was bitter and unpleasant. Maybe that works in a mocha or caramel latte, but I'd recommend against it.

Now, Misha's is a coffee-house institution for Old Town. Many people swear by it. In the distant past, before the ascendancy of "specialty coffee" -- when espresso was supposed to be bitter and freshly ground coffee was roasted darker, Misha's was the best coffee in OT. But tastes change and in some cases improve. Their roasts haven't changed much, while many other places now make single-origin espressos and pour-overs.... So they probably deserve to be on the list, but I would steer clear of their espresso. (Would love to hear of recent experiences there)

I forgot to say, Happy New Year to all. 

Don,

Very happy to hear of your good experience at the awkwardly named "Virtue Feed & Grain." It's been a fair spell since the Armstrong separation, so they should've had a chance to settle down into a rhythm.

Though I haven't had Elliot Ness in a while (I'd much rather have Edmund Fitzgerald), it's widely respected. Ratings are difficult. The 100-point score you mention on BA is from "the Bros." I presume it's not frequently updated, whereas the continually updated "BA Score" is, well, continually updated. To that point, I see quite a few recent high ratings. It's difficult to draw direct comparisons because individual ratings max at "5" and are incorporated into the rating history and converted into the 100-point scale. But it looks to me like Elliot Ness gets some pretty good ratings. Whereas, at RateBeer, Ness also enjoys excellent ratings, and a 100-point score "in style."

As any foodie might tell you, ratings should be taken with a grain of salt.  However, in a place like a Virtue I'm more suspicious of how the beer was treated before it got in your glass: how long did it sit in the cooler, or rather the storeroom. The problem with today's abundance of craft beer is that in a place like Virtue"“"“not exactly a destination for beer geeks"“"“a lot of beers will sit, and not necessarily with any care. Similar to the situation with old coffee on the shelf in a café, restaurants do not like to throw away their product. Many of these places are stocking too many types of beer, leading to bottles getting old. Unlike wine, almost all beer should be drunk fresh. The sooner the better.

I just returned from Pennsylvania, where a Weis Market's beer department was full of beers "best before" dates in 2014 and early 2015. Some where IPAs. Outrageous!

Ratings might be hard, but so is a real beer program.

Sadly, Killer ESP is rather a crap shoot. It has so much potential, but ends up as a hodgepodge in decor, products, and quality. I've had a decent macchiato and espresso there; better than most places in Alexandria. But service and product are VERY inconsistent and many times poor. It's certainly a training issue because they have excellent equipment. The people working there seem to change often. A year or so ago they all seemed to be high school age and not interested in knowing much about coffee. They do have a pretty interesting cold brew apparatus and I think the pour-overs are generally competent--not great.

They use freshly ground Stumptown coffee and sell it there -- for the most part the retail coffee is pretty fresh. Occasionally I've seen month old bags.

I will forego the lament about how even Swings coffee bar has declined as their staff has changed, leaving Alexandria an espresso wasteland. The city seems cursed to have lousy espresso while DC explodes with cafes. Killer ESP is an independent coffee house, though.

Porcupine, thank you for your wonderful map.

Mr Galy's interview performance certainly wasn't good. But, if you think the president of company being sued is going to apologize for something related to their conduct or product, you don't understand the legal system in the United States. No lawyer would allow it. Boeing doesn't apologize when one of their aircraft crashes. This isn't a defense of Fig & Olive or their response, it's just a statement of fact. You can't get blood from a turnip.