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Greenberg vs. Greenburg, and Other Orthographic, Onomastic Ordeals


DonRocks

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There are no two spelling variants in America that give me more trouble than Greenberg vs. Greenburg, and people with these names get *indignant* if you spell them wrong!

This is, I would think, Ashkenazi in origin, and using my limited knowledge of Russian, I think the "u" would be the most likely letter (*); however, it's often "whatever the guy at Ellis Island decided it would be." 

Is there an easy way to "know" if someone's name is Greenburg vs. Greenberg? Take Mark Furstenberg as an example - I've written his name probably 100 times before, and I have to look it up *every single time*. Just now, I wrote someone a letter about Greenberg Smoked Turkeys, and got that one wrong, too - I guess my natural inclination is to use a "u" because of Russian.

Does anyone have any suggestions, advice, or pearls of wisdom that might keep me from looking this up each-and-every time I use it?

"Ask them" or "look it up" are both inadequate answers.

(*) Then again ... even in Cyrillic, the "e" is used for her name (**). And then there's Strasbourg, France, which should be pronounced slightly differently, but never is.

(**) Yeah, I know, who the hell is Maria Grinberg, but there are a lot of worse ways you could spend the next ten minutes of your life.

 

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I don't know a whole lot about this subject, but I do know that the Yiddish spoken by Russian Jews, while incorporating some Russian vocabulary, descended from Middle High German. It was almost always written using Hebrew orthography, so Cyrillic probably isn't relevant. In German (and I imagine in Yiddish too), "Berg" means mountain and "Burg" means fortress. One element or the other is found in a lot of German place-names.

This doesn't help you know whether someone's surname ends in -berg or -burg, to be sure. I imagine most of them got their spelling at Ellis Island as you suggest, and also that virtually all the "Greenburgs" should have been "Greenbergs"

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4 hours ago, The Hersch said:

I don't know a whole lot about this subject, but I do know that the Yiddish spoken by Russian Jews, while incorporating some Russian vocabulary, descended from Middle High German. It was almost always written using Hebrew orthography, so Cyrillic probably isn't relevant. In German (and I imagine in Yiddish too), "Berg" means mountain and "Burg" means fortress. One element or the other is found in a lot of German place-names.

This doesn't help you know whether someone's surname ends in -berg or -burg, to be sure. I imagine most of them got their spelling at Ellis Island as you suggest, and also that virtually all the "Greenburgs" should have been "Greenbergs"

It might not "help me," but it's one of the most fascinating nuggets of information I've read in awhile.

People might glance at your post, and think, 'not much,' but I think it was terrific.

People see Russian, and it looks like Mandarin to them; nothing could be further from the truth - it is surprisingly English-like, and the transliteration is nearly a one-to-one correspondence, so you just need to memorize 33 characters and a few simple pronunciation guidelines - that's why it doesn't surprise me that it's descended from Middle High German, although I had no idea that was the case. I always thought it was Latin-based: Russian is one of those languages like Spanish, where, even if you don't have any idea what you're reading, you can read fluently - Russians think it's *very* amusing to hear someone reading Dostoyevsky, letter-perfect, not having a clue what they're saying.

Example: p=r, c=s, h=n. Every single reader should now know what this word means: ресtоран (no, it's not "pecked a pa."

Using this pronunciation guide (the audio buttons don't work in this cut-and-pasted version), you should be able to figure out the names of what follows (spelled phonetically). Don't bust my chops if I make a mistake, because I'm winging this whole thing:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group 1: Same look and sound as in English

There are six Russian letters that match their English counterparts by both pronunciation and form -- A, E, K, M, O and T.

А а sounds like "a" in after, ask. In pronouncing this sound, the mouth is open a bit wider as compared to English
Е е sounds either like "ye" in yes or like "e" as in ebony . It is pronounced with preceding y in the beginning of a word or after a vowel.
К к sounds like "k" in kite, making, like. Try to avoid the puff of air after the sound typical for the English language.
М м sounds like "m" in mobile, dome.
О о

sounds like "o" in more (without the 'r' sound). Try protruding and rounding your lips a bit more than you do in English.
In unstressed positions, this letter sounds like "u" in under, but more lax.

Т т sounds like "t" in task, tardy. The tip of the tongue touches the lower teeth, as opposed the upper gum ridge in English.

Group 2: Sound-alikes but different look

There are sixteen Russian letters that do not exist in English but have familiar pronunciation. The include Б, Г, Д, ё, Ж, П, Ф, И, й, Л, Ц, Ш, Щ, Э, Ю and Я.

Б б sounds like "b" in buy, blue. Try to avoid a puff of air after the sound typical in the English language.
Г г sounds like "g" in get, guard.
Д д sounds like d in double, did. In pronouncing this letter, the tip of the tongue touches the lower teeth.
Ё ё sounds like "yo" in York or like "o" in copy, obvious depending on the position in a word.
Ж ж sounds like "s" in usual, pleasure.
П п sounds like "p" in compassion. Try to avoid a puff of unvoiced air after the sound as typical for the English language.
Ф ф sounds like "f" in fasten, fact.
И и sounds like "ee" in free, meet.
Й й sounds like "y" in oyster, soy.
Л л sounds like "l" in lock, chill.
Ц ц sounds like "ts" in that's.
Ш ш sounds like "sh" in ship, crush but with the tongue farther back in the mouth
Щ щ sounds like "shsh" in rush-ship. When pronouncing it, try to place your tongue higher and more forward in the mouth than in English.
Э э sounds like "e" in ebony, edit. When pronouncing this sound, try opening the mouth a bit wider than you do in English.
Ю ю sounds like the word "you" but faster. In some cases it sounds like "oo" in oodles
Я я sounds like "yu" in yummy. In some cases it sounds like "a" in after, ask.

Group 3: Look-alikes but different sound

The following eight Russian letters look like their English counterparts (or even digits) but have different pronunciation--В, З, Н, Р, С, У, Ч, Х.

В в sounds like "v" in voice, visit
З з sounds like "z" in zodiac. This letter might look like the number three (3) but it only conveys a sound and has nothing to do with digits.
Н н sounds like "n" in noon, nose. Like with the Russian letter T, the tip of the tongue touches the lower teeth when pronouncing this letter.
Р р sounds like "r" in "rest" but rolled.
С с sounds like "s" in sun, sale. Unlike in English, the tip of the tongue touches the lower teeth.
У у sounds like "oo" in oodles. This sound is pronounced shorter than in English, with lips more rounded and protruded.
Ч ч sounds like "ch" in church, cheek. Do not confuse this letter with the number four (4).
Х х sounds like "ch" in loch when pronounced in Scottish manner. It remotely reminds "h" in hoopla.

Group 4: New look and sound (or no sound)

The last group includes letters that do not exist in English and either represent unfamiliar sounds or have no sound value (Ы, Ъ, Ь).

Ы ы No English equivalent. To produce "Ы" sound, notice the positions of the tongue when pronouncing English sounds i as in kit and u as in sugar. Then place your tongue in between and emit a voiced sound.
   -- Ь This letter is called the "soft sign" and has no sound value. It is used to modify the pronunciation of the preceding consonant by making it soft (palatalized). A consonant becomes soft when it is pronounced with the middle of the tongue raised towards the roof of the mouth.
   -- Ъ The "hard sign" has no sound value. It occurs only between a consonant and a vowel as in the word "въезд" (entry). It is used to show that the consonant should not be palatalized and that the consequent vowel is preceded by the the "y" sound as in yes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Бaю
Блy Дoк Tавypн 
(some of these need to approximate the sound)
Марсэл'з
Ty Эймиз
Э Byaлa
Кoми
Baйдэйля
Ци Oвyл Pyм 
(there's no perfect way to replicate "th")
Tocкa
Бибиaнa
Джo'c Cтoн Kpaб
Coнтpaл
Фиoлa Mapэ
Cэвэнтин эйти нaйн
Oлд Юpoп
Kaмэт Пинг-Пoнг

and, last but not least:

Бpэд Фypcт :)

---

(Make sure you listen to the 4th Ballade after the 1st (it should start automatically) - it's widely regarded as one of the greatest piano works ever composed. Grinberg's isn't my favorite rendition of either, but they're plenty good enough.)

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1 hour ago, DonRocks said:

It might not "help me," but it's one of the most fascinating nuggets of information I've read in awhile.

People might glance at your post, and think, 'not much,' but I think it was terrific.

People see Russian, and it looks like Mandarin to them; nothing could be further from the truth - it is surprisingly English-like, and the transliteration is nearly a one-to-one correspondence, so you just need to memorize 33 characters and a few simple pronunciation guidelines - that's why it doesn't surprise me that it's descended from Middle High German, although I had no idea that was the case. I always thought it was Latin-based: Russian is one of those languages like Spanish, where, even if you don't have any idea what you're reading, you can read fluently - Russians think it's *very* amusing to hear someone reading Dostoyevsky, letter-perfect, not having a clue what they're saying.

Example: p=r, c=s, h=n. Every single reader should now know what this word means: ресtоран (no, it's not "pecked a pa.")

Don, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Yiddish, including the variety that was spoken in Russia, descends from Middle High German. The Russian language does not, although they have a common ancestor, Indo-European. Neither German nor Russian descends from Latin.

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47 minutes ago, The Hersch said:

Don, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Yiddish, including the variety that was spoken in Russia, descends from Middle High German. The Russian language does not, although they have a common ancestor, Indo-European. Neither German nor Russian descends from Latin.

oic (now).

I added a "Fun with Russian" puzzle in my previous post for your amusement.

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