Keithstg

I am all in with the concept that corkage is a privilege and not a right, but if you are going to permit corkage don't complain when someone takes advantage of it.  As we have noted in numerous posts on the topic, there is an etiquette to corkage (call ahead, don't take anything from their list, etc.) however . . . while $40 is not usury, it is higher than the norm for DC.  (and in fact until the law was changed a couple of years ago, higher than was legal)  The norm in DC for corkage is $15-25 per bottle.

I don't necessarily refuse to patronize restaurants that don't permit corkage, but I do refuse to patronize restaurants that have high markups and don't permit corkage.  There are too many other places to go.  I chose Proof because I wanted to eat there, I asked about the corkage because I have dined there with wine groups in the past, as well as just with my wife, and paid less than $40 for corkage.  Proof is a wine bar, and they are justifiably proud of their wine list, but it can be high priced.  Yes there are some gems available, and there are wines on the list that most folks never see except on a really good list.  But if you are like me, and have some very small production, highly sought after wines, and want to drink them while dining on a special occasion at a very nice restaurant, you will pick one that has a reasonable corkage fee.  I've eaten at many very fine restaurants, including Per Se, but I won't buy from their list and won't pay $100 to be able to drink my wine.

I am still going to go there this weekend, and I think I will bring a either a 2012 Radio-Coteau Chardonnay Savoy or a 2012 Kosta-Browne Chardonnay One Sixteen Vineyard and a 2009 Black Kite Pinot Noir Angel Hawk Reserve.

   

I don't know what prior DC law has to do with current corkage fees/ law, and don't think that anyone is complaining about taking advantage of corkage where permitted. As someone who also has wines like you describe, I'll sometimes pay corkage. I'll often buy off a list. I won't bring (and ask to open) three bottles when the policy is for one, complain when corkage isn't waived if I share a taste with the chef, etc, etc etc. I'd imagine you, Pool Boy and others do the same. Just reacting to attitudes continually expressed on another board - as I mentioned.

Keith, I'm not sure if you're in the industry but I'm very curious to learn if the above is always true, usually true or more the exception.  It seems  a huge part of understanding markups.  I'd need to better understand what most restaurants do with corked or bad wine and also how often that even happens (whether it's a material risk for an average-sized restaurant cellar). I'm a bit skeptical about this risk but also admit to being largely uninformed about it.  It'd be great to hear from Mark Slater and others on it if they're willing.

In my experience always true, but probably usually true.

Thanks Keith. I understand the risk with age idea since applies to most things and have had that large bummer of an experience even with the smaller number of bottles (some pricier) I keep at home. But, reimbursement/return agreements with distributors and/or insurance may mitigate this significantly if it is even a material issue for a restaurant? Again on those things, count me as skeptical but admittedly ignorant.

Insurance for wine (which I have and highly recommend) will not cover "flawed bottles". Breakage, theft, cooling unit failure - yes. Heat Damage, TCA, etc - no. Standard whether through Chubb, Fireman's fund, or one of the online options.

Reimbursements/ returns are much easier for new/ recent release wines like the 2012 Chards dinwiddie is talking about, but often not on older bottles.

Keith, I'm not sure if you're in the industry but I'm very curious to learn if the above is always true, usually true or more the exception.  It seems  a huge part of understanding markups.  I'd need to better understand what most restaurants do with corked or bad wine and also how often that even happens (whether it's a material risk for an average-sized restaurant cellar). I'm a bit skeptical about this risk but also admit to being largely uninformed about it.  It'd be great to hear from Mark Slater and others on it if they're willing.

I'm not in the industry. And, I'm not suggesting that corkage is something that one shouldn't "take advantage of", but rather that many in the wine community expect more out of corkage policies than is reasonable - and that reflects poorly on the hobby as a whole.

Regarding "bad bottles", seems that as with many things, the risk increases with age. I was at Bern's in Tampa a few weeks ago and had a bad bottle - it was replaced without a second thought. Were I to have walked downstairs and pulled a similar bottle at my home (if I had the same bottle), it would have been a large, large, large bummer and I would be out my initial investment.

You see, you're going to be helpless in responding to this because I know you don't want to find out what happens when you make your 667th post (you might want to take a screen shot before you do, because it's going to be a letdown).

I don't buy into the "corkage is a privilege" argument. Well, I do, but pretty much *anything* that isn't guaranteed by law is a privilege, so I think it's largely irrelevant. I have the opposite attitude: "If you're going to charge me 2.5 times as much as the liquor store down the street for the exact same thing, i.e., $100 for a $40 wine, you'd *better* have a corkage policy if you want my business."

So yes, a restaurant's corkage policies are a privilege to me, but my business is a privilege to them, and I'm more than happy to take it elsewhere (I haven't bought a bottle of wine at Proof in years). Sorry for the blunt talk, but I resent restaurants marking up their wines much higher than retail. Yes, there is stemware, ice buckets, service, etc., and that absolutely justifies a small markup. However, unlike what I could do with their miso sablefish, with a bottle of wine, I could simply walk down to my basement and get the exact same thing, and instead of paying $100 for it, I paid $25. Now, what am I expected to do?

Quite honestly, I don't see how restaurants sell *any* wine that's priced over $30-40, because anyone who knows enough to appreciate it, should know enough not to pay that much for it. Proof's Gamay list is a good example of the upper-end of what I can tolerate: It's a *great* list of Beaujolais - fantastic vineyards, great importers - just the absolute best-of-the-best, and yes, there is significant value-added because they went to the trouble of expertly sifting through and selecting those world-class beauties so that I can pretty much just throw a dart and be guaranteed something special. Plus, if the wine is corked (or whatever), the financial risk is theirs; not mine - that, too, is significant, albeit mitigated if they can return it to the distributor. All that justifies, in my mind, a substantial markup from retail - from $20 to $45, for example. They absolutely deserve $25 for the work they did in selecting that bottle. But (you knew there was a but coming), Beaujolais is one of the last regions in the world that makes world-class red wine at prices so low - it's the best-of-the-best region that produces Gamay, just as Champagne is the best-of-the-best region that produces sparkling wine, and is without peer. I can tolerate a 2-2.5 times markup for inexpensive wines such as these, but I couldn't tolerate paying $150 for a $60 wine no matter what hoops they went through in procuring it.

Lest anyone think I'm cheap, I gave Mark a bottle of 1966 Lafite as a thank you for inviting me to his soft opening dinner (if there are any doubts remaining, start Googling). I considered Mark a dear personal friend, and mourn his loss in various ways every single day. I know how much he loved Max, and he always beamed with paternal pride when he talked about how much Max had learned about wine over the years (and from what I hear, he knows quite a bit). The fact that someone as talented as Adam Bernbach is *not* the wine director speaks volumes about Proof's beverage program. Michael James is one of only a handful of truly great GM's in this city, on a par with the very best when it comes to working the dining room. I love Haidar's cooking, and Proof has always been on the verge of being in Bold in the Dining Guide, and has been ranked as the #1 restaurant in the Verizon Center neighborhood since the day it opened (Asia Nora, in fact, *was* in Bold for a brief time during Haidar's stint there). Proof is one of only several outstanding restaurants in the Washington, DC area. But I'd be anti-consumer if I didn't point out how expensive Proof's wine program has become - yes, it still has fantastic wines, and is one of the tip-top wine programs in the city (Mark would have argued, not without some justification, that it was *the* best wine program in the city). But damn you sure have to pay dearly for that quality, and wines are a unique restaurant commodity in that they're not a unique commodity at all. Well, caviar service is the same, I guess - if someone doesn't mind paying $200 for 30 grams of beluga caviar, when they can get the exact same thing at Dean & DeLuca for $100, then they probably don't mind paying double-retail for wines either (when you have that much money, things take on a different perspective; I don't have that much money). The irony here is that I have a palate that genuinely, truly, wildly, passionately appreciates the nuances in caviar, and damned if I wouldn't love to be able to enjoy it on a regular basis, but, I can't, and so it gets consumed by some rich philistine, shoveling it down while gulping glasses of Le Romanée-Conti, not caring, or even noticing, that the two completely ruin each other. Do I sound jealous here? I do? Well ... I *am*!  I couldn't care less about money except when it comes to things like this, and this makes me wish I was a billionaire so I could support those poor fishermen, toiling on the Caspian sea, sweating and grimacing and laboring to harvest those 500-pound beluga sturgeon. They need my help.

[Maybe instead of damning Proof by association, I should move these last two posts into a separate corkage thread?]

And before anyone lambasts me, please understand that this post intentionally devolved into parody. But God, I do love great caviar. Hackleback, my ass.

Fair enough, as this isn't really about proof, Per Se (which has either $95 or $150 corkage now). I completely agree that corkage is a privilege, as is your patronizing a business. What I react to is when folks (and this is absolutely more about wineberserkers than it is here) want corkage on their terms, with their parameters, and think that anything less is an insult.

You mention risk briefly, but I don't think you are valuing it highly enough. As you note, If you open a corked or maderized bottle at a restaurant, they assume risk. If you take that same bottle from your home cellar, who assumes that risk? Sure, you can try and bring the bottle back through the supply chain and may well be able to do so with a recent release - but with a bottle bought at auction or on release and then aged for 15 years? Good luck, and good luck to the restaurant as well. Businesses have been charging premiums for absorbing risk for centuries - why should wine be any different (in addition to glassware, breakage, storage, and other costs that the restaurant absorbs)?

I get that everyone has some sort of internal value system re: markups, but to complain about wine markups AND corkage fees? Just eat at home with that middling bottle of Cali pinot...

Makes me glad I sold off my stash 6 years ago at $100 per. It was not a favorite and an easy sell. I can see why people love it though. $40 corkage is almost userous.

Please don't take this the wrong way Pool Boy, but not only is $40 corkage not usurious, it's a privilege. I'm not taking issue with your post, but with the attitude toward corkage in general (and certainly not your attitude in particular ). I understand it to some degree - I enjoy wine and have about 1k bottles sleeping in my home cellar. What I don't enjoy is the sense of entitlement that comes with many who enjoy our hobby that corkage is a right and that right should come cheaply. It's even worse on the wine board I follow, where some guy just took Corduroy to task for following their house policy on corkage and not allowing another bottle to be consumed. Apparently sticking to a corkage policy isn't "gracious" or something.

The most frequent comments I see regarding wine and corkage relate to restaurant markups vs. retail - what astonishes me is that nobody seems to acknowledge that a restaurant isn't a retail setting in the sense that Schneider's is. I mean, what's next - am I going to walk into some steakhouse with either my local pastured beef from Martin's or with Bryan Flannery's excellent prime beef and demand it be cooked because it's superior to what I can purchase on-site?

Anyway, rant over. Maybe I'll understand corkage one day...

ETA: funny that this was my 666th post...

Five-Star, Five-Diamond restaurants ... (AAA and Mobil were the measuring sticks at the time) - I also went to another one in Bar Harbor, Maine where they put rose petals in the toilets. Seriously, every time you left the restroom, someone would go in immediately afterwards, and drop rose petals in the toilet. Does anyone remember what this might have been?

When was this? Could have been Michele's, or possibly Burning Tree.

The two are unrelated (also speculation, but informed rather than semi unless huge changes have occurred).

Do the math....if Founding Farmers is doing $350K a week, and he average cover is $50, they're doing 7,000 covers a week?

Do bar tabs count as covers? I doubt it, and think that's a significant portion of revenue that isn't showing up in their per check averages - potentially anyway. And sure, over 19 meals a week, I could see that.

How can that be sustainable? It can't be anything more than early buzz....

There are 265 seats in the restaurant, so they are doing more than $1000 per seat each week? Where else in Washington is this happening?

Maybe at Old Ebbitt? That's the only place that I could think of...

Well man, that is too bad. Randy's a great guy and I wish him well, I wonder if there is still any wine left to buy. I placed an order successfully just now, but I wonder if it is all gone now.

Agreed. There is still wine to buy - if it's on the website, it should be available.

WHAT?! Really? No! What's your source of info?

My source is the horse's mouth, sadly...

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=110257

What a difference a few years makes....!

I currently only buy from the following lists with any regularity -

Match

Bressler

Peay

Littorai

You know that Match is closing, right?

Anyway, I've consolidated my lists, so now just multiple case buys per year from the following:

Copain

Littorai

Radio Coteau (solely Las Colinas and La Neblina - don't find their single vineyards to have the sense of place that, say, Wells's do)

Realm

RdV (though not technically an email list)

FF pulling in $250K-$300K per week (Sorry Kibbee).

Was just coming here to post this link. Totally unsurprising. The numbers may (will?) drop as FF ages, but this was an obvious hit from the get-go.

Had a Littorai chardonnay (sonoma coast 2012 I think), a 2011 Littorai Savoy Pinot Noir, a 2006 Radio Coteau Savoy Pinot Noir, a 2002 Dehlinger Goldridge Estate Pinot Noir (ever so faintly corked, but it still worked), a Karl Lawrence Cab (not sure on the year - 2007?), a 1999 Vietti Barolo (wow), a 1995 or 1997 or 1998 Brunello of a sort that was DOA (tasted like an old band aid), and a 2003 Kosta Browne Pinot (forgot the vineyard).

Standouts for the wine for me were the Littorai Chard, Littorai Pinot and especially the 1999 Barolo.

Wow - infanticide on the 2011 Littorai. I still have half my '06 R-C's, need to taste through them soon. Very interested to know what you thought of the K-B. My impression of older K-B's ('04) was that they were hot, alcoholic messes and not made to age - kind of like a Martinelli or Brewer Clifton "pinot". How was your experience?

On 3/5/2015 at 7:10 PM, darkstar965 said:

Shouldn't have to defend kitchen supply choices but, as defenses go, that's a pretty good one.  Thumbs up here. 

+600. After having a cheaper Revereware stockpot and waiting forever for it to heat up, I went to the 8 quart All Clad and have been happy ever since. I would highly recommend, although I would avoid the "ltd" line if you ever envision using induction in your kitchen as they are incompatible...

This confuses me. Le Chat Noir is in Tenleytown, not Van Ness. The movie theatre that used to be nearby was not next to it, but the next block down, and was the Outer Circle 1 and 2, and not an independent cinema, although it was mostly programmed as an "art house". There used to be some crappy little multiplexes in Van Ness, but never an independent that I can recall. The Outer Circle was next to the venerable Round Table restaurant on Wisconsin. Both buildings were eventually torn down and replaced by a bank and its parking lot. Such is progress.

Yep, you are correct - Tenleytown it is. Sorry for the confusion. 

I'm sure Rye is an excellent restaurant (which is why I'm moving this post *way* far away from the New York City Forum), but if I see another menu like this anytime in the next month, I'm going to scream.

I can't call this "New American," because it's not new; I'm going to call it "Young American" (with apologies to David Bowie), because the chefs are *always* under 35, have some degree of talent, but trot out all the hackneyed saws on their menus - I don't even have to list them; all you have to do is go look at the menu.

Last night, I got home from a week in the Bay Area in California, and even in the "good" restaurants (and let me tell you, I ate *well*) the menus all started to look alike, and they looked a lot like this one, with their own regional twist, of course.

Where has originality gone?!

I understand what you are saying - heck, I eat at least 8-10 restaurant meals a week so I feel your pain, or palate fatigue. That said, there is a fine line between "originality" and keeping the lights on and the staff paid - everything is a compromise.

Does anyone remember the "Visions DC Bistro Cinema" that was at Florida and 20th in North DuPont from 2000 until 2004? Evidently it was the Embassy Theater before that dating back to the 60s.

http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/8050

And, yes, these last few posts should be moved into the fine arts history or film forums. :-)

Absolutely! Loved it there. Also, the independent cinema in Van Ness, next to where Le Chat Noir is now. Saw a great documentary on Hank Greenberg there...

I don't remember "Vivo!" (Did it really have the exclamation point in the name?) Where and when was it?

Where Komi is now! Used to be a trattoria owned (or managed, but it was called Vivo! by Roberto Donna) by Roberto Donna back in his salad days. It closed in 2004.

Born in Hartford, CT. Split time in between the Hartford area and NYC growing up until I left for high school in Windsor, CT. Fun fact: both Jeremiah Tower and Frank Bruni are fellow Loomis alums. Next stop was four years in upstate NY for college (shout out to youngfood, who is also a Hamilton alum and DR.com member). Moved to Alexandria after graduation - lasted there about four months before I got the heck out of the 395 corridor and into the District proper. Spent four years in Dupont - the back door to my condo building opened basically across from Vivo! tratorria at the time (anybody know what restaurant is in that space now?). Left for a year in NYC due to work (back on weekends), came back and moved to Capitol Hill. Spent seven years in Capitol Hill at Lincoln Park and watched a near complete transformation of the neighborhood. Spent a year in Boston (back on weekends), then another year in NY (same deal). Now I split time between NYC (Tribeca) and Paris, VA, where we moved two and a half years ago. The one constant over the years - every summer (37 and counting) spent on a tiny island off of the coast of Maine.

I also enjoyed this feature (and am late in replying to the thread). I very surprised that not a single caterer came in on budget, and one exceeded the 1k budget by 30%?!?!

It's real. Vittorio Testa used to run another Italian restaurant in either Vienna or McLean prior to opening La Perla. The name of it escapes me (as does the location, apparently), but I did eat there once - it was fine. Food was in the style of upscale Italian restaurants in the 80s... Like nearly everyone else here, I haven't been to La Perla.

As valid a speculative point as any. Maybe the downtown and higher end Harbor East? A city that can support Woodberry Kitchen, a Four Seasons, and some serious coffee shops (e.g., Spro, Artifact)? Not sure but maybe right up there with all the pundits now claiming the Nats are a lock for the World Series this year with Scherzer? And we know how that turned out when Manager Davey Johnson predicted it in 2012. :-)

I also doubt Baltimore can support a Four Seasons long term. I have stayed at that property approx 10-15 nights a year since it opened and while nice, it's never more than 1/2 full, to say nothing of the goat rodeo that has been the condo project there. While I agree that Harbor East is affluent, it's what, a three/ four block radius? I also agree that the Four Seasons location was likely not a help versus a "neighborhood" location.

Not to say that Baltimore can't/ won't get there, just that the dining scene there is in its infancy compared to Washington (apologies to Spike Gjerdje and Cindy Wolf).

Baltimore not ready for an Izakaya? I suspect the last line about mismanagement is closer to the truth given the success of great spots like Seki in DC.

I'm speculating just as much as you are, but Baltimore and DC are vastly different markets despite their proximity. Not super surprised that Baltimore couldn't support an izakaya.

Anyone know of a local source (DC or VA, no MD) for piment d'espelette?