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#1 KMango

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 02:46 PM

"That would include using one of three methods to rid spices of bacteria: irradiation, steam heating or fumigation with ethylene oxide, a pesticide..."

Washington Post Link To The Story

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#2 deangold

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 05:55 PM

Many of the spices you but at retail ae ancient... 5 to 10 years old is not uncommon. If they are not handled properly, there can be lot of room for the little beasties to flourish. Well grown product, with risk reuction at the source, sold promptly is a better answer than bacteria laden spices nuked.

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#3 pizza man

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 07:15 PM

is this really a move for the Codex Alimentarus folks (i.e. Monsanto) to move forward with their plans to control the worlds food supply?

Call me paranoid.

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#4 johnb

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 07:21 PM

Well grown product, with risk reuction at the source, sold promptly is a better answer than bacteria laden spices nuked.

Nobody could argue that "well grown........etc." is better. But how does one guarantee they really are? And why not just nuke them anyway? What's the harm? Then we are at least guaranteed there won't be any bacteria.

Personally I much prefer irradiation to trusting the growers and packers, or the other methods they're talking about, particularly treating them with pesticides---I'm a pest too, and I don't want to be "cided" any more than the next guy.

#5 dcs

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 07:28 PM

Many of the spices you but at retail are ancient... 5 to 10 years old is not uncommon. If they are not handled properly, there can be lot of room for the little beasties to flourish. Well grown product, with risk reuction at the source, sold promptly is a better answer than bacteria laden spices nuked.

Where can I get the fresh stuff in small enough quantities that it will keep until I can get through it? I always try to buy the smallest container in glass, if available. This 5 to 10 years aged product disturbs me. I never knew.

#6 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 05:58 AM

Nobody could argue that "well grown........etc." is better. But how does one guarantee they really are? And why not just nuke them anyway? What's the harm? Then we are at least guaranteed there won't be any bacteria.

Personally I much prefer irradiation to trusting the growers and packers, or the other methods they're talking about, particularly treating them with pesticides---I'm a pest too, and I don't want to be "cided" any more than the next guy.

Every year, people die from improperly pasteurized cheese. The only cases of people who have died from raw milk cheese are a few where there is great doubt if the cheeses are in fact raw milk.

When in our industrial giant driven food supply, a food out break occurs it sickens thousands f not millions because to appease Micky D's need for the $.99 burger, we have mass produced foods where batches are in the tons of foods. We have artificially cheap foods that don't have to pay the cost of their effects on the public.

High Fructose Corn Syrup receives more in subsidy for the US tan the entire organic industry receives in total expenditure. The last time I looked, Gallo and then Mondavi received almost all the export subsidiy provided the wine industry, exceeding their pecentage of the wine market share.

You want nuked foods, eat away. rBST milk? Drink gallons of the stuff and watch the early onset of puberty continue in our children. Irradiate that shit filled hamburger while you are at it. I prefer my little meat grinder and will continue to grind my own. I don't want any of them. Why should your desires make me eat something I don't want. I am not telling you not to irradiate or sanitize the industrial waste that passes for food these days. Just label it accurately and let the market decide. And stop subsidizing the giants. But I will tell you that adding layers of regulation of how to clean our food after the fact will not be 100% perfect because there will be stupid, careless or just unlucky folk who don't follow procedure properly.

I clearly don't believe in the modern food system. I just wish my desires to be a Luddite were not so threatening to those who do.

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

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Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

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#7 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:03 AM

Where can I get the fresh stuff in small enough quantities that it will keep until I can get through it? I always try to buy the smallest container in glass, if available. This 5 to 10 years aged product disturbs me. I never knew.

Someone like Penzey's is a better bet. But I use spices from this tiny operation and their stuff makes Penzey's look and taste like sawdust. When we were transitioning to Trader's Link {Behroush Sharifi}, it took a while for our orders to go smoothly and I ran out of allspice and nutmeg. I went to Penzey's and bout small bags of theirs. They were tons better than what I was using but when the stuff from Behroush came in, we actually gave away the stuff from Penzey's because it was flavorless in comparison.

The Allepo pepper I buy from him stains your hands with its oils, that bought elsewhere does not.

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

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Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

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#8 DannyNoonan

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 08:03 AM

Every year, people die from improperly pasteurized cheese. The only cases of people who have died from raw milk cheese are a few where there is great doubt if the cheeses are in fact raw milk.

When in our industrial giant driven food supply, a food out break occurs it sickens thousands f not millions because to appease Micky D's need for the $.99 burger, we have mass produced foods where batches are in the tons of foods. We have artificially cheap foods that don't have to pay the cost of their effects on the public.

High Fructose Corn Syrup receives more in subsidy for the US tan the entire organic industry receives in total expenditure. The last time I looked, Gallo and then Mondavi received almost all the export subsidiy provided the wine industry, exceeding their pecentage of the wine market share.

You want nuked foods, eat away. rBST milk? Drink gallons of the stuff and watch the early onset of puberty continue in our children. Irradiate that shit filled hamburger while you are at it. I prefer my little meat grinder and will continue to grind my own. I don't want any of them. Why should your desires make me eat something I don't want. I am not telling you not to irradiate or sanitize the industrial waste that passes for food these days. Just label it accurately and let the market decide. And stop subsidizing the giants. But I will tell you that adding layers of regulation of how to clean our food after the fact will not be 100% perfect because there will be stupid, careless or just unlucky folk who don't follow procedure properly.

I clearly don't believe in the modern food system. I just wish my desires to be a Luddite were not so threatening to those who do.


Well said. Provided the appropriate amount of information, consumers would make better choices. The problem is that the status quo is wildly profitable for too many folks so nobody will ever be incented to provide this information.
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#9 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 08:07 AM

Well said. Provided the appropriate amount of information, consumers would make better choices. The problem is that the status quo is wildly profitable for too many folks so nobody will ever be incented to provide this information.

Politics is influenced by money? Say it ain't so! I'm shocked, shocked!! Shocked I say. If elected, put your contributions, in unmarked bills of non consecutive serial numbers to the man at the door!

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#10 lperry

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 08:46 AM

Someone like Penzey's is a better bet. But I use spices from this tiny operation and their stuff makes Penzey's look and taste like sawdust. When we were transitioning to Trader's Link {Behroush Sharifi}, it took a while for our orders to go smoothly and I ran out of allspice and nutmeg. I went to Penzey's and bout small bags of theirs. They were tons better than what I was using but when the stuff from Behroush came in, we actually gave away the stuff from Penzey's because it was flavorless in comparison.

The Allepo pepper I buy from him stains your hands with its oils, that bought elsewhere does not.

So can lowly non-restaurant-owning people buy from this vendor as well?

#11 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 08:49 AM

His stuff comes in 8oz and 16 oz for the most part. Some day if I have the right space, I'd love to have the ability to retail the product in bulk. At current, Behroush pretty much has his hands full with the wholesale trade. I hesitate to say that I would be willing to sell it to you as I only keep small amounts in stock and have an odd assortment. But PM me and I can see what I can do.

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

1914 Ninth Street NW

Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

Dino's Grotto In Shaw
Dino's Grotto on Twitter
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#12 mdt

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:18 AM

His stuff comes in 8oz and 16 oz for the most part. Some day if I have the right space, I'd love to have the ability to retail the product in bulk. At current, Behroush pretty much has his hands full with the wholesale trade. I hesitate to say that I would be willing to sell it to you as I only keep small amounts in stock and have an odd assortment. But PM me and I can see what I can do.

There was an article on him earlier in February, click. Does he only sell the exotic spices?

#13 Pool Boy

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:58 AM

I'd love to find better sources for spices. Anyone sharing resources aside from the obvious would be appreciated!

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#14 lperry

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:24 AM

His stuff comes in 8oz and 16 oz for the most part. Some day if I have the right space, I'd love to have the ability to retail the product in bulk. At current, Behroush pretty much has his hands full with the wholesale trade. I hesitate to say that I would be willing to sell it to you as I only keep small amounts in stock and have an odd assortment. But PM me and I can see what I can do.

It sounds like it will be more of a pain to you than a help to me. I cook with a lot of spices, but I don't think I could ever use such large amounts. I do hope you get space to sell them!

I'd love to find better sources for spices. Anyone sharing resources aside from the obvious would be appreciated!

I'm assuming the obvious are the Asian and Indian groceries, but I will mention that for things like whole nutmegs, the Latin foods section at Shoppers can be good if you hit them when they are turning things over. If you catch the guy when he is stocking the shelves, do not hesitate - you will know because you will be able to smell the spices through the plastic wrap and seal on the jar. I bought some cloves at Christmas (La Fe I think?) that were still oily and smelled stronger than the bottle of clove oil that we used to have in the lab.

The source that Mr. lperry used to get my Christmas saffron for me is here. I found it in the resource guide to Jacques Pepin's "Fast Food My Way" website. The saffron is stigmas only, no styles, is certified from this year's harvest, and they include a chemical analysis of all the volatile compounds. It is sublime. I've used it twice, and compared to others I bought at Trader Joe's and Whole Paycheck, there is no comparison. The vanilla beans from here are so fresh you can squeeze the oil out of them.

#15 ol_ironstomach

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 11:00 AM

The source that Mr. lperry used to get my Christmas saffron for me is here. I found it in the resource guide to Jacques Pepin's "Fast Food My Way" website. The saffron is stigmas only, no styles, is certified from this year's harvest, and they include a chemical analysis of all the volatile compounds. It is sublime.

Seconded - their quality has always been ridiculously good. Before they switched to importing Iranian saffron maybe 7 or 8 years ago, the Greek saffron they were bringing in from the Krokos Kozanis cooperative was testing out at 246 color units. It made even the precious Mancha threads look and smell muted by comparison, much to the consternation of my Spanish paella-making companions.

(They also used to be jaw-droppingly inexpensive...I was paying about $40/oz from them in '98, which is SO much saffron for a home cook that you end up looking for excuses to use it in things. Mancha was about $7 per 0.25 gram at the time at A&H.)

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#16 johnb

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:30 PM

Every year, people die from improperly pasteurized cheese. The only cases of people who have died from raw milk cheese are a few where there is great doubt if the cheeses are in fact raw milk.

When in our industrial giant driven food supply, a food out break occurs it sickens thousands f not millions because to appease Micky D's need for the $.99 burger, we have mass produced foods where batches are in the tons of foods. We have artificially cheap foods that don't have to pay the cost of their effects on the public.

High Fructose Corn Syrup receives more in subsidy for the US tan the entire organic industry receives in total expenditure. The last time I looked, Gallo and then Mondavi received almost all the export subsidiy provided the wine industry, exceeding their pecentage of the wine market share.

You want nuked foods, eat away. rBST milk? Drink gallons of the stuff and watch the early onset of puberty continue in our children. Irradiate that shit filled hamburger while you are at it. I prefer my little meat grinder and will continue to grind my own. I don't want any of them. Why should your desires make me eat something I don't want. I am not telling you not to irradiate or sanitize the industrial waste that passes for food these days. Just label it accurately and let the market decide. And stop subsidizing the giants. But I will tell you that adding layers of regulation of how to clean our food after the fact will not be 100% perfect because there will be stupid, careless or just unlucky folk who don't follow procedure properly.

I clearly don't believe in the modern food system. I just wish my desires to be a Luddite were not so threatening to those who do.


Several points:

I do not feel threatened in the least by your desire to be a Luddite. Luddite away--fine with me! But most people don't wish to be, and don't have the time to be, Luddites where their food supply is concerned. The fact is, to be a Luddite as you say, in today's society one actually needs to be a food elitist, which by definition only a very few can be. Nothing wrong with that, but the lifestyle and practices of the food elite won't work for the vast majority, to whom regulation is addressed.

I'd like to have more information on these people who are dying from pasteurized milk cheese. Are you saying that if we used non-pasteurized milk to make the cheese that most people eat, like sliced American, we'd have fewer deaths?

My basic point about irradiation was apparently lost. Let me be more clear. I do not espouse irradiation as a substitute for good food handling practices. But neither do I trust that food handlers will all do a perfect job. Apparently you feel the same way. I think irradiation is fine as a BACKUP, because human beings don't always do their jobs as well as they should (gasp horrors does that ever happen??--you yourself point out that it does). Further, i think the opposition to the practice is, to state it nicely, not scientifically based. Just because radiation is associated with warfare does not mean that consuming irradiated food is dangerous; this idea is about as scientifically-based as the belief held by many Chinese people that eating ground tiger penises will give them better erections. Similarly, the belief that BHT causes premature puberty is a belief, like believing (as many do) that Obama isn't a US citizen or that handling snakes and not being bitten proves you're not a sinner, or that immunizations cause autism. I'm not promoting BHT in milk, but I am saying that there is no scientific basis for the allegations commonly made against it. I also buy meat that is fresh ground, not in those tubes. But that's not the point. Again, we all can do what we want. If you prefer spices that have been gassed with pesticides, fine, but give me irradiation every time. More importantly, arguments, particularly related to regulatory policy that has to serve the needs of everybody, not just the elite, need to be based on facts, not unfounded suppositions and beliefs.

As to subsidies, there is little doubt in my mind that, based on units of output, small organic farmers are subsidized (through the tax system and all the write-off that are possible) as much as the big boys (I used to be one myself). There are few explicit farm subsidies to growers of fresh produce in any case. Again, I agree we should get rid of all these subsidies, but IMO the current situation does not make the little guys virtuous and the big guys bad. That to me is a superficial understanding of what is going on. As an aside, I've done my calculations and I believe that the total carbon footprint of locally grown food is, frequently if not most often, higher than that of competing products brought from far away. The belief that it has a smaller carbon footprint again shows a superficial understanding, in this case of transportation costs and fuel use. But I'm not going to get further into that one again now.

Bottom line--when it comes to our food supply there are lots of myths out there, and rolling back modern methods and returning to the "good old days" is not the answer to the needs of most people. There are many problems in our system that need fixing, but going back to 1930's agriculture, let alone to the era before refrigeration and antibiotics, when most people lived in the country and grew their own, is not the way to solve them in the 21st century. And BTW lots more folks were getting sick and dying from bad food in those days than now.

#17 pizza man

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:28 PM

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just saying...

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#18 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:57 PM

Several points:

I do not feel threatened in the least by your desire to be a Luddite. Luddite away--fine with me! But most people don't wish to be, and don't have the time to be, Luddites where their food supply is concerned. The fact is, to be a Luddite as you say, in today's society one actually needs to be a food elitist, which by definition only a very few can be. Nothing wrong with that, but the lifestyle and practices of the food elite won't work for vast majority, to whom regulation is addressed.

If I am allowed to be a luddite by the Monsanto folk. And they are not satisfied with most folk going along with their corporate ways. They want us all.

I'd like to have more information on these people who are dying from pasteurized milk cheese. Are you saying that if we used non-pasteurized milk to make the cheese that most people eat, like sliced American, we'd have fewer deaths?

Industrial cheese maker Kraft is behind the Codex Alementaria which would ban un pasteurized cheeses. We currently ban less than 60 days day aged cheeses. All for no scientific reason. Sliced American is not cheese. Cheese is milk, rennet, salt, cultures and maybe some spices or herbs. It is not emulsifiers, vegetable oils, etc etc etc. If you want to feed your kids the equivalent of the fat in orders of Mickey D's French fried, have at it. But please don't call if cheese. Nor cheese food. Cheese, real cheese is food. That crap in plastic is just that: crap in plastic. There are people who can make real cheese slices that have nothing in them but the real ingredients of cheese. Fancy that! In any case, I am not saying that this product or any product should be made from raw milk cheese. It is just if you tell me I have to eat cheese that is pasteurized for my safety, why does pasteurized cheese have a much higher incident of death associated with it?

Right now, there are nearly yearly outbreaks of listerosis and deaths from it from improperly handles fresh cheese, mostly Mexican, made in USDA food code meeting plants. Ball Park Franks killed 17 {nothing says loving like getting killed by Sarah Lee. There are not 17 deaths reported worldwide from raw milk cheese eating. And might I add that the bagged lettuce that killed and sickened was so bad not because it was bagged, but that the batches washed were measured in the tons. One contaminated {cow shit filled ground water contaminated by a CAFO nearby feeding 100% corn based feeds to sick cows turning them into eColi factories} water bath and hundreds of thousands of potential exposures. One bad piece of meat at the fabricator of Jack in the box and 22,000 pounds of burgers making 80,000 or 90,000 bad sandwiches {less if they were doubles}


My basic point about irradiation was apparently lost. Let me be more clear. I do not espouse irradiation as a substitute for good food handling practices. But neither do I trust that food handlers will all do a perfect job. Apparently you feel the same way. I think irradiation is fine as a BACKUP, because human beings don't always do their jobs as well as they should (gasp horrors does that ever happen??--you yourself point out that it does). Further, i think the opposition to the practice is, to state it nicely, not scientifically based. Just because radiation is associated with warfare does not mean that consuming irradiated food is dangerous; this idea is about as scientifically-based as the belief held by many Chinese people that eating ground tiger penises will give them better erections. Similarly, the belief that BHT causes premature puberty is a belief, like believing (as many do) that Obama isn't a US citizen or that handling snakes and not being bitten proves you're not a sinner, or that immunizations cause autism. I'm not promoting BHT in milk, but I am saying that there is no scientific basis for the allegations commonly made against it. I also buy meat that is fresh ground, not in those tubes. But that's not the point. Again, we all can do what we want. If you prefer spices that have been gassed with pesticides, fine, but give me irradiation every time. More importantly, arguments, particularly related to regulatory policy that has to serve the needs of everybody, not just the elite, need to be based on facts, not unfounded suppositions and beliefs.

How about this for clear.... I don't want to eat irradiated foods. I got your points but I clearly disagree with them. I am neither stupid nor un-American, just desirous of having my choices and my ability to choose kept unencumbered by the enrichment of the fat cats at Monsanto, Dean Foods, Kraft etc.

If I am required to buy irradiated foods by law, my rights are being trampled on by a food code not supported by science, but by industry interest. If I cannot have food labeled as irradiated then the label is a lie. If I cannot eat non gmo corn because the cross pollination of gmo corn to non gmo corn is happening and the Monsanto backed companies are suing organic farmers for infringement for something that they never wanted in the first place. If I can't buy milk that is rBST free without rBST users propaganda on the label {and that was quite a battle to wine the right to tell the truth on the label}, then why am I forced to by a label with lies on it? I mean I have to buy oil based plastic cutting boards instead of wooden ones even though studies show the plastic ones harbor bacteria in their cut recesses and wood is a natural antibiotic. My employees wear plastic gloves that also, in practice, harbor more bacteria hand washed hands. The gloves are made of petroleum based products. And most of this nonsense is not a part of the European food codes and they have a longer life expectancy than we do.

As to subsidies, there is little doubt in my mind that, based on units of output, small organic farmers are subsidized (through the tax system and all the write-off that are possible) as much as the big boys (I used to be one myself). There are few explicit farm subsidies to growers of fresh produce in any case. Again, I agree we should get rid of all these subsidies, but IMO the current situation does not make the little guys virtuous and the big guys bad. That to me is a superficial understanding of what is going on. As an aside, I've done my calculations and I believe that the total carbon footprint of locally grown food is, frequently if not most often, higher than that of competing products brought from far away. The belief that it has a smaller carbon footprint again shows a superficial understanding, in this case of transportation costs and fuel use. But I'm not going to get further into that one again now.

Wrongo dongo. As recently as the last administration, organics got less than 1% of USDA funding and accounted for 7 or 8% of sales. No matter how you cut it, that is a lot of moolah for the Monsanto crowd.


Bottom line--when it comes to our food supply there are lots of myths out there, and rolling back modern methods and returning to the "good old days" is not the answer to the needs of most people. There are many problems in our system that need fixing, but going back to 1930's agriculture, let alone to the era before refrigeration and antibiotics, when most people lived in the country and grew their own, is not the way to solve them in the 21st century. And BTW lots more folks were getting sick and dying from bad food in those days than now.

But more people are dying from diabetes now, and the diabetes epidemic that is going to explode on us is so associated with the outputs of big industry. Them govt subsidized 32 oz big gulps are killing us. Thus enriching the big ag forces making HFCF and the medical community who gats fat off those of us lucky enough to have health insurance. The rest die! If you project out the death rates from eColi 0157 {thanks to the beef industry} the numbers can range from a lot of dead folk to a scary lot of dead folk. No eColi 0157 deaths prior to something like the 1980's or 1990's. Most eColi is the result of over feeding of corn to our cattle and poultry supply. Corn based feeds, corn syrup. ... hmmm see a connection?

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

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Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

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#19 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:44 PM

Further, i think the opposition to the practice is, to state it nicely, not scientifically based. Just because radiation is associated with warfare does not mean that consuming irradiated food is dangerous; this idea is about as scientifically-based as the belief held by many Chinese people that eating ground tiger penises will give them better erections. Similarly, the belief that BHT causes premature puberty is a belief, like believing (as many do) that Obama isn't a US citizen or that handling snakes and not being bitten proves you're not a sinner, or that immunizations cause autism. I'm not promoting BHT in milk, but I am saying that there is no scientific basis for the allegations commonly made against it. I also buy meat that is fresh ground, not in those tubes. But that's not the point. Again, we all can do what we want. If you prefer spices that have been gassed with pesticides, fine, but give me irradiation every time. More importantly, arguments, particularly related to regulatory policy that has to serve the needs of everybody, not just the elite, need to be based on facts, not unfounded suppositions and beliefs.

By the way, you tiger penis comment is really insulting and, frankly,not supported by anything I have said. I know the science. I simply don't beleive the risk from the spices I buy are so great that all spices need to be irradiated or gassed. I will be more opposed to gasses spices than the iradiated ones. How about importing spices that have had batchsamples taken and then processing only those that need it as an alternative to gassin or nuking every one. This would be my approach. Then label the farking shit by how it is processed and let me choose. Don't dictate to me what I eat.

By the way, BHT milk and in the meat supply is implicated in the early onset of puberty in girls via epidemiological studies, but the standard of 95% confidence interval has not been met. Many practices in public health are in the same boat. Its not the fact that the rBST is not the equivalent of the natural, it is that there are elevated levels of it in the milk.

And sub theraputic use of antibiotics is clearly a source {and one of the main one, the use of hand sanitizers being another} of the super bugs that are now widespread in our environment.

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

1914 Ninth Street NW

Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

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#20 johnb

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:57 PM

I'm very familiar with your arguments. But they mostly are speculation and conjecture, no factual. Just a few quick points:

My employees wear plastic gloves that also, in practice, harbor more bacteria hand washed hands. The gloves are made of petroleum based products. And most of this nonsense is not a part of the European food codes and they have a longer life expectancy than we do.


You are fond of mentioning shit. Why are you are forgetting that your employees wear those gloves not because of harboring bacteria, but because most of the time they go into toilet, get shit on their fingers, and then don't bother to wash their hands. Do you go in there after them and watch then to make sure they wash their hands? If you do you're in the vast minority of restaurant owners. European life expectancies have nothing to do with gloves.

Wrongo dongo. As recently as the last administration, organics got less than 1% of USDA funding and accounted for 7 or 8% of sales. No matter how you cut it, that is a lot of moolah for the Monsanto crowd.


False comparison. Most of the subsidies are for such things as feed corn, other feed grains, cotton, sugar, and so on. They have little or nothing to do with our choices of organic or inorganic foods. That said, I still agree with you--I'd prefer to get rid of all of them.

But more people are dying from diabetes now, and the diabetes epidemic that is going to explode on us is so associated with the outputs of big industry. Them govt subsidized 32 oz big gulps are killing us.


The causes of the diabetes epidemic are complex and not understood. Once again you are throwing out speculation and innuendo, not facts. And you are very fond of pointing out that everyone should be able to do what he wants ("let the market decide.") Nobody is forcing anybody to drink those 32 oz. big gulps or any of the rest of it. So what's your objection? Are you proposing to substitute your biases and suspicions for scientific analysis, and regulating everybody's behavior accordingly? I thought that's exactly what you said you don't want.

By the way, you tiger penis comment is really insulting and, frankly,not supported by anything I have said. I know the science. I simply don't beleive the risk from the spices I buy are so great that all spices need to be irradiated or gassed. I will be more opposed to gasses spices than the iradiated ones. How about importing spices that have had batchsamples taken and then processing only those that need it as an alternative to gassin or nuking every one. This would be my approach. Then label the farking shit by how it is processed and let me choose. Don't dictate to me what I eat.


The purpose of the tiger penis comment was not to insult, but to point out, strongly, that many beliefs, though honestly and deeply held, are nevertheless wrong. As to not "dictating to you what you eat," the problem is that you are asking for an exemption. Yes, you may know what is going on and can make your own informed decisions, but the vast majority of people are not so situated. There have to be reasonable regulations that protect the public in general. Inevitably some who may not need such protection, in this case what I am calling the food elite, are going to get caught up in those regulations, like it or not. You have two choices. Find a way to carve out an exemption for yourself and like minded folks, but I doubt that is feasible. Or, prove the regulations are bad for everybody. That is in effect what you have been trying to do, but your case is weak. You may truly believe the things you are saying (irradiation is bad....etc.), but I don't buy them and you haven't proven them, and i don't believe you can. And regulation must err on the conservative side, always. Anyone can find things in regulations he doesn't like. But in a complex society that delivers many benefits, we can't have it both ways. Sometimes you just have to suck it up.

Big agglomerations of economic power and wealth, otherwise known as big corporations, are a fact of modern life, and in fact, like it or not, we wouldn't have a modern, comfortable, and yes healthy life absent those big and, I just have to say it, efficient corporations, of all kinds in all sectors. They have their downsides, but your vision is worse. You would have us all behind mules out plowing, not behind computers writing like this, or running restaurants where we sell imported cheeses that are brought in in jet aircraft and efficient containerships. Can we make what we have better? Absolutely. But is it so bad that it can be dismissed as hopelessly corrupt and worthy only of being thrown overboard? Not at all. For all its faults, and you have correctly pointed out some, what we have today is immeasurably better than anything that came before, and IMO we need to keep that in perspective.

#21 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 05:16 PM

You are fond of mentioning shit. Why are you are forgetting that your employees wear those gloves not because of harboring bacteria, but because most of the time they go into toilet, get shit on their fingers, and then don't bother to wash their hands. Do you go in there after them and watch then to make sure they wash their hands? If you do you're in the vast minority of restaurant owners. European life expectancies have nothing to do with gloves.

In real life studies of gloves, they do not offer protection. We ahve more food borne illness since their introduction than before and the gap with Eurrope grows.



False comparison. Most of the subsidies are for such things as feed corn, other feed grains, cotton, sugar, and so on. They have little or nothing to do with our choices of organic or inorganic foods. That said, I still agree with you--I'd prefer to get rid of all of them.

The single most heavily subsidized item iin ou food supply is corn. Wrongo dongo!



The causes of the diabetes epidemic are complex and not understood. Once again you are throwing out speculation and innuendo, not facts. And you are very fond of pointing out that everyone should be able to do what he wants ("let the market decide.") Nobody is forcing anybody to drink those 32 oz. big gulps or any of the rest of it. So what's your objection? Are you proposing to substitute your biases and suspicions for scientific analysis, and regulating everybody's behavior accordingly? I thought that's exactly what you said you don't want.

Large scale epidemiological evidence is hard to get until the death rates become overwealming. See smoking. But in any case, my point is STOP SUBSIDISING HFCS and let the market place decide. I am not asking anyone to stop doing anything./ You are tellimg me to eat irraqdiated foods and RBST milk is no problem. Not according to my reading of the always conflicting science. There are scientific studoes suggesting that cigarette smoking does not cause cancer and I think they are pure bullshit,.


Big agglomerations of economic power and wealth, otherwise known as big corporations, are a fact of modern life, and in fact, like it or not, we wouldn't have a modern, comfortable, and yes healthy life absent those big and, I just have to say it, efficient corporations, of all kinds in all sectors. They have their downsides, but your vision is worse. You would have us all behind mules out plowing, not behind computers writing like this, or running restaurants where we sell imported cheeses that are brought in in jet aircraft and efficient containerships. Can we make what we have better? Absolutely. But is it so bad that it can be dismissed as hopelessly corrupt and worthy only of being thrown overboard? Not at all. For all its faults, and you have correctly pointed out some, what we have today is immeasurably better than anything that came before, and IMO we need to keep that in perspective.

I have a constitutionally given right to rail against themand I often do. If you want to be a party to their practies, go ahead. Don't force me. GMO corn genetic material now infests most of the corn stock, just we us non scientific alarmist said it would when Monsanto bought the congress and the presidency uhhh.... used their dominant wealth uhhhh... exercise their freedom of speach and convinced our hard working government employees altruistically looking out for my wefare and allowed GMO corn with assurances that this would not happen. Roundup ready genes are now found in the weeds surrounding the soy farms making eh weeds no longer suseptable to roundup. Next up, a less begnign form of pesticide you need to buy from roundup's maker, Monsanto.

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

1914 Ninth Street NW

Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

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#22 johnb

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:59 PM

[

The single most heavily subsidized item iin ou food supply is corn. Wrongo dongo!

That's essentially what I said. The corn in question is dent corn, not sweet corn such as is eaten as a vegetable.


Large scale epidemiological evidence is hard to get until the death rates become overwealming. See smoking. But in any case, my point is STOP SUBSIDISING HFCS and let the market place decide. I am not asking anyone to stop doing anything./ You are tellimg me to eat irraqdiated foods and RBST milk is no problem. Not according to my reading of the always conflicting science. There are scientific studoes suggesting that cigarette smoking does not cause cancer and I think they are pure bullshit,.


The difference is that THE OVERWHELMING BODY OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE is that smoking is a major cause of many health problems--actually, cardiovascular more than cancer. In the case of irradiated foods, there is no such overwhelming body of evidence, or even an underwhelming body of evidence. Same thing is true of BHT. The studies are in NO WAY COMPARABLE to the body of evidence concerning smoking. Suggesting they are is misguided at best, sophistry at worst..

I have a constitutionally given right to rail against themand I often do. If you want to be a party to their practies, go ahead. Don't force me. GMO corn genetic material now infests most of the corn stock, just we us non scientific alarmist said it would when Monsanto bought the congress and the presidency uhhh.... used their dominant wealth uhhhh... exercise their freedom of speach and convinced our hard working government employees altruistically looking out for my wefare and allowed GMO corn with assurances that this would not happen. Roundup ready genes are now found in the weeds surrounding the soy farms making eh weeds no longer suseptable to roundup. Next up, a less begnign form of pesticide you need to buy from roundup's maker, Monsanto.

I will defend to the death your, or anybody's, right to rail. But I repeat, we have a complex society that, in its complexity, delivers to us many benefits that you seem to be taking for granted. In order to have such a society function and deliver those benefits, not every individual can have it his way. That's anarchy, and it doesn't work.

If you don't like the proposal, state your case. As a well-known DC restaurant owner I'm sure you can take advantage of the FDA's comment period on any proposed regulation and probably be heard well above most of the others who will be commenting. Go ahead. But IMO your arguments are heavy on bluster but not on science. The "problems" you cite, like the round up weeds, can be solved and IMO don't constitute a material case against GMO's. Everyone has to understand that you get your hearing and then you accept the verdict, whether it's for you or against you. You don't get special treatment and special exemptions, just because you feel strongly. Call that being forced if you want, but that's just how it is. I know of no other way to run a country.

#23 deangold

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 07:41 PM

The difference is that THE OVERWHELMING BODY OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE is that smoking is a major cause of many health problems--actually, cardiovascular more than cancer. In the case of irradiated foods, there is no such overwhelming body of evidence, or even an underwhelming body of evidence. Same thing is true of BHT. The studies are in NO WAY COMPARABLE to the body of evidence concerning smoking. Suggesting they are is misguided at best, sophistry at worst..

John, are you really saying that I posted an equivalence about the current understanding of smoking andhealth and that of HFCS and Diabetes? Since you seem to like putting words in my mouth, and I will take that as carelessness on your part and not a deliberate mistatement of my position, what I sid was

Large scale epidemiological evidence is hard to get until the death rates become overwealming. See smoking.


Implying that I said the evidence of a HFCS diabetes link is on that level is flat out sophistry at best and ,well at woset a lot worse. Attack me personally when you run out of ammunition? SO dfar I am the equivalent of a tiger penis eating Chinese because I have read studies, talked about these issues, worked int he natural foods industry and ahve scepticism of the industry funded research that goes on today. I have diabetes. I go to one of thetop rated endocrinologists in DC and a former lab head at NIH. I have long discussions with him about not only the restaurant business but on the current state of the knowledge of the causes and and treatment of diabetes. He is as convinced by the correlation of processess foods including, and in fact, especially HFCS and the incidence of Diabetes that is following. Roedale puyblishes many natural foods journals which have better and worse levels of science but they have references to many studies that go against the sugar and corn industry sponsored studies that say HFCS is as harmless as the day is long. It is through my carefull reading of these studies and discussions about Diabetes with my former researcher doctor and others I have come into contact with that lead me to beleive this. My belief is that y the time we know about the dangers of HFCS in a statistically significant manner, the rate of Diabetes will be huge, beyond or current projections. This last sentance, let me make clear, is a belief. The associations and studies I refered to in a general fashion are the basis of my personal belief.

I will defend to the death your, or anybody's, right to rail. But I repeat, we have a complex society that, in its complexity, delivers to us many benefits that you seem to be taking for granted. In order to have such a society function and deliver those benefits, not every individual can have it his way. That's anarchy, and it doesn't work.

I am asking for real labeling laws that force people to tell the truth. If you sell me cabernet sauvignon then either it is 100% cabernet or disclose what it is. If you irradiate my foods or give rBST to cows, then tellme. If you don't, then allow them to tell you. I am also saying that there is a better way to food safety than waving the magic want of irradition at the end. Here is the problem: end of game processes like irradiation only offer a seeming protection. If you are not doing risk reduction at every step of the process, people get careless. The food pre radiation, if far dirtier than it used to be. Then the irradiation equipment doesn't work, but we are so convinced that it is a magic bullet that the bad food goes out in worse condition and the food outbreak is worse. This is the principle behind HACCP. You identify each critical step. But the talk of the proponents of irradiation dismisses the need to be careful at the early steps.

If you don't like the proposal, state your case. As a well-known DC restaurant owner I'm sure you can take advantage of the FDA's comment period on any proposed regulation and probably be heard well above most of the others who will be commenting. Go ahead. But IMO your arguments are heavy on bluster but not on science. The "problems" you cite, like the round up weeds, can be solved and IMO don't constitute a material case against GMO's. Everyone has to understand that you get your hearing and then you accept the verdict, whether it's for you or against you. You don't get special treatment and special exemptions, just because you feel strongly. Call that being forced if you want, but that's just how it is. I know of no other way to run a country.

I know that I will not get my way with the FDA. I don't have the millions that the big ag people do to buy off prostitutes congressfolk. But if we lose our sense of outrage, where will we be. In the 1970's, Nixon was brought down finally because a bunch of dope smoking hippies and students {which are greatly overlapping groups} got outraged and then a movement was born. Theissues that I railed against 10 years ago have some degree of traction. I do my part intheway I feel most important. I live my talk thru my restaurant. I try to be local and I don't serve endangered species fish {assuming I can figure out which populations are threatened. There are fish suppliers who call their cod sustainable because it is day boat caught. There are restaurant that ttell you the name of their farmers and then serve cod. The east cod stocks are decimated. Monterey Baty Blue Ocean and NOAA all asy there is no sustainable cod. Same with Bluefin Tuna. I don't serve them and I rail when I get the opportunity.

My view of science is different than yours. I know of many cases of evolving opinions of a foods good or bad effects. Margerine was recognized as a health food and yet we now know that trans fats are harmful. I never supported margerine becaue it was fake {and tastes awful to boot).

My view of what enlightened regulation is is different than yours. I say have different levels of processing but disclose them.

Vegans might be horrified to know that the wine they drink may be very likely treated with fish bladder. The wine industry lobbyists fight to this day to prevent the disclosure of what is in the bottle.

My crusade is based on telling the truth. Scince does not give the cut and dried, black and white answers you seem to think it does.

Gertting down off my soap box and removing myself from further discussion here.

Dean Gold ~ Chef/Owner Dino's Grotto

1914 Ninth Street NW

Metro Green/Yellow Shaw Howard or U/Cardozo

Pay Parking Lots: 7th & T ~ U between 9th & 10th

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#24 johnb

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 08:37 PM

Gertting down off my soap box and removing myself from further discussion here.

Yes, this has gone on long enough.

And you and I are not as far apart as you think. Where we do differ is how to do regulation. I would like to agree with you that if everything were labeled properly that ought to be enough--you shouldn't need to regulate what sellers do, only insist that they disclose. But in the real world of real people that just isn't enough. If it were, for example, lots fewer people would have taken out those bad mortgages and, along with other stupid things that went on, nearly brought down the economy. And if people really understood what's going on we would have real health care by now, not this abomination we have and may be stuck with for lots more years. Most people just don't have the time/expertise/inclination to inform themselves as they should about all the varied decisions they must make. I'm an economist, and if there's one thing I finally figured out its that people aren't "rational," and absolutely can't be expected to do what is in their best interest even most of the time, let alone all. Not that they don't want to or are too lazy. It's just too much for anyone. In a complex economy people need to band together and hire other people and experts to figure out how things should be done and make rules so that's how they are done, so they are protected. This is called government. There needs to be real regulation, not just disclosure. But this is a blunt tool and inevitably will leave some, perhaps most, dissatisfied. But I see no other way that will work.

And you really should go testify before the FDA. I think you would get a far more receptive hearing than you could ever imagine.

By the way, I never used margarine.

Signing off.

#25 Pool Boy

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 10:38 AM

The source that Mr. lperry used to get my Christmas saffron for me is here. I found it in the resource guide to Jacques Pepin's "Fast Food My Way" website. The saffron is stigmas only, no styles, is certified from this year's harvest, and they include a chemical analysis of all the volatile compounds. It is sublime. I've used it twice, and compared to others I bought at Trader Joe's and Whole Paycheck, there is no comparison. The vanilla beans from here are so fresh you can squeeze the oil out of them.

Thanks for the tip. We bought a bunch of stuff while in NYC last month. I'd be looking for a *local* source if possible of some of the better spice purveyors (high quality ideally, with as low as possible prices, of course). Web options are also desired, like this linky. I'll need to also check out the back of my cookbooks for additional inspiration for sources of this sort of thing, too. I'm in Laurel if that helps.

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#26 Arcturus

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 10:44 PM

Posted Image

just saying...

;)

B...but high fructose corn syrup is good for you! Your tax dollars say so!

The sad thing is that we shouldn't need to have this discussion in the first place. With even a modicum of safety training and common sense, spices should be essentially bacteria-free indefinitely.

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