Baking Bread: Knead Help

[mktye]

Possibly more than you'd ever want to know about yeast...

[jparrott]

I have some of this SoggyDough gurgling away. Will make a batard attempt using proofing basket, stone, and good ol'fashioned pan-o-water for steam.

[jparrott]

It's good. It flopped around quite a bit on the peel, but plenty of oven spring produces a squat, but recognizable batard. Great crust, open crumb.

One note: the flavor seems much better after about three hours out of the oven.

One more note: This has to be the mostest excellentest French Toast bread ever. Haven't tried it yet, but I just have a feeling.

[Yentruoc]

I have to say that baking this bread was one of the greatest culinary misadventures I have ever had. I was so excited to try out the NYT recipe for the first use of a recently inherited 40 year old Le Crueset dutch oven.

I consider myself a pretty adequate bread baker; I regularly bake my own bread and have had more good results than bad. I used King Arthur Flour and filtered water, like usual.

After mixing together all the ingredients, I had a flour soup. I added some more flour to get the shaggy consistency desired. And more. And more. I think I probably added about an extra cup of flour when all was said and done, and it still looked more like pancake batter than a bread dough.

So after 18 hours, it was still so soupy that I added more flour to get it to a point where it would form a (very sticky) mass. I liberally floured a kitchen towel (the only one that is not terry cloth) and soldiered on, letting the dough rest on the towel, covered for two hours. I heated up the Le Crueset in the oven. I felt optimistic- this could work out Ok afterall!!

Time to take the Le Crueset out of the oven to flip the bread into. Hmm. Can't get the lid off. After twenty minutes and the use of a screwdriver, I have pried the lid off the dutch oven. That's not a good sign! So back in the oven it goes, this time sans lid.

When reheated, I attempt to turn the dough into the dutch oven. About 1/3 of it sticks to the towel; I pry what I can off with a knife; leaving my towel with very well ingrained hunks of dough.

Soo...into the oven it goes. The result after 45 minutes? A nice looking little boule that has the moisture content of and tastes like wet paper towels (or what I imagine them to taste lik, anyway). the dish towel survived after a nice hot bath in the washer.

I applaud everyone else's successful efforts- the photos are beautiful. For me, I think I'll leave the no knead, no "trouble" method for another time.

[Pat]

I have to say that baking this bread was one of the greatest culinary misadventures I have ever had. I was so excited to try out the NYT recipe for the first use of a recently inherited 40 year old Le Crueset dutch oven.

Oh, I can top this, and I haven't even tried to put what's left of the dough in the oven yet. The dough seemed to be progressing just fine, but when I made it into a ball, it didn't quite hold together well enough. The transfer from work surface to nearby cornmeal-covered cloth resulted in half the dough flopping onto the edge of the counter and, before I could do anything about it, onto the floor. And our floor is not what you would call, uh, clean. So I have a small mass of dough which is not solid enough to be a ball, rising for the 2 hours. I'll see what happens. I can usually deal ok with fairly wet dough, but this dough is so wet that it's really loose. I'll try again and make sure the cloth is immediately next to the work surface and far back on the (clean) counter.

[mdt]

Oh, I can top this, and I haven't even tried to put what's left of the dough in the oven yet. The dough seemed to be progressing just fine, but when I made it into a ball, it didn't quite hold together well enough. The transfer from work surface to nearby cornmeal-covered cloth resulted in half the dough flopping onto the edge of the counter and, before I could do anything about it, onto the floor. And our floor is not what you would call, uh, clean. So I have a small mass of dough which is not solid enough to be a ball, rising for the 2 hours. I'll see what happens. I can usually deal ok with fairly wet dough, but this dough is so wet that it's really loose. I'll try again and make sure the cloth is immediately next to the work surface and far back on the (clean) counter.

You got it! The dough is very slack and care is needed in moving it around.

I have another batch going with 100% APF and it is way more liquid (same flour to water ratio) than the 50/50 WW version. I am also doing a second rise in the fridge to try and develop more flavor. We will see, flour is cheap.

[jparrott]

Yeah, I think the next time, I might try an overnight fridged rise of the formed loaf (in basket) and then bake from cold in the AM. Might hold a more rounded shape that way (and plenty of oven spring).

[Pat]

You got it! The dough is very slack and care is needed in moving it around.

I have another batch going with 100% APF and it is way more liquid (same flour to water ratio) than the 50/50 WW version. I am also doing a second rise in the fridge to try and develop more flavor. We will see, flour is cheap.

Ah. I used all APF. I'll try half whole wheat next time. Thanks for the idea.

[jparrott]

Mine was all APF, but was King Arthur (about 10-15% higher gluten than normal APF).

[mdt]

Mine was all APF, but was King Arthur (about 10-15% higher gluten than normal APF).

That is the only brand that I use and the 100% APF is still very slack. My 50/50 was with KA bread flour. My latest batch would have been 100% bread flour, but I was out. The horror!

[Pat]

That is the only brand that I use and the 100% APF is still very slack. My 50/50 was with KA bread flour. My latest batch would have been 100% bread flour, but I was out. The horror!

I had thought of using bread flour, but I'm low on that and have lots of APF. I have another bread I'm making soon that requires bread flour specifically, so that's why I opted for all-purpose for this. The next attempt I'll try whole wheat and APF.

[jparrott]

By the way, there's something to the crust of this bread that reminds me of the crust of Two Amys pizza. I'm definitely going to use this as pizza dough at some point.

To deal with the splooginess of doughs like this, I tend to coat the (portioned) dough in flour and work it a little bit by hand before rolling it by pin. You can get it paper-thin this way; then just be careful not to over-top.

[Pat]

Not to give a blow-by-blow account, but I baked the portion of the dough that survived . It was hard to get the timing right since it was a smaller amount. I think I may have left it in slightly too long, but it's got a nice crust. It looks like a ciabatta with a crusty crust. When I was tapping on it to see if it was done, I managed to poke my thumb through it, and the inside is nice and soft. I think I managed to salvage something from this project.

(To get it into the cast iron dutch oven I used, I folded the towel back against itself once to get the dough loosened and then picked up the whole thing and dropped it into the pot. This was the easiest time in the process that I had dealing with the dough. No problem with the stickiness at all.)

[jparrott]

A note here on cooking times--because of the wetness of the dough, the loaf gets to 210F internal temperature relatively quickly. I recommend continuing to bake from there to develop a firmer crumb and more complex crust flavors. YMMV.

[cjsadler]

I still haven't been home enough to try this yet, but if you haven't seen it, watch the video. You get a good chance to see just how slack the dough should be. Jim Lahey doesn't seem to bother too much about measuring, but in the video, he's only using 1.5 cups water (measured with dry measuring cups) to 3 cups flour. This is different from the written recipe.

[jparrott]

And there's no reason why you can't play with the slackness a bit. As long as it's pretty slack, the gluten will form with no trouble.

[mdt]

And there's no reason why you can't play with the slackness a bit. As long as it's pretty slack, the gluten will form with no trouble.

But if it is too slack then you get a pretty moist crumb, which is my only complaint with this technique so far. I think I am going to try and make a batch with no more than 40% hydration (based on total weight) and see if the crumb is more like that of normal bread. Other than that the result is pretty damn tasty.

My latest batch (see recipe below) produced a pretty slack dough that smelled great after the fridge ferment. The end product was good, but it did need more salt (say another 1/4 tsp from what is written below). The crust is thin and excellent and produced nice 'ears' from where the seam was when formed into a ball.

------------------

17.5 oz KA APF

15 oz H20

1 1/4 tsp salt

1/4 tsp yeast

Mix--sit at RT for 18 hours--punch down--sit in fridge for 10 hours--punch down--rest at RT for 20 minutes--form into ball and let rise until double--baked in 4 qt pot for 30 minutes with the cover on--then 20 minutes off

[mdt]

I still haven't been home enough to try this yet, but if you haven't seen it, watch the video. You get a good chance to see just how slack the dough should be. Jim Lahey doesn't seem to bother too much about measuring, but in the video, he's only using 1.5 cups water (measured with dry measuring cups) to 3 cups flour. This is different from the written recipe.

Not to mention that he states that the oven should be at 500 or even 550F. His dough was more firm than my last batch, that is for sure.

[Pat]

Not to mention that he states that the oven should be at 500 or even 550F. His dough was more firm than my last batch, that is for sure.

One other thing I noticed from the video is that he scooped the flour into the measuring cup, rather than spooning it in. For baking, I generally spoon the flour into the measuring cup so it doesn't pack down. For bread, since I add extra flour as I'm working with the dough, I don't want to have excess flour to start with. My dough was a little stickier than his but did have a decent amount of stringiness from the gluten. I was pretty impressed that I ended up with a decent loaf even after my mishap . My husband thought the bread was great.

[mdt]

One other thing I noticed from the video is that he scooped the flour into the measuring cup, rather than spooning it in. For baking, I generally spoon the flour into the measuring cup so it doesn't pack down. For bread, since I add extra flour as I'm working with the dough, I don't want to have excess flour to start with. My dough was a little stickier than his but did have a decent amount of stringiness from the gluten. I was pretty impressed that I ended up with a decent loaf even after my mishap . My husband thought the bread was great.

Put a digital kitchen scale on your Christmas list. It will take the guess work out of baking.

[Pat]

Put a digital kitchen scale on your Christmas list. It will take the guess work out of baking.

I have one but generally only use it for recipes that call for ingredients by weight. I don't know how good a job I'd do at converting from volume to weight. (And the one I have is fairly small with a flat top, which means I also need to account for whatever container I put the ingredients in to weigh them.)

[mdt]

I have one but generally only use it for recipes that call for ingredients by weight. I don't know how good a job I'd do at converting from volume to weight. (And the one I have is fairly small with a flat top, which means I also need to account for whatever container I put the ingredients in to weigh them.)

One cup of AP flour is 5 oz.

Does it have a tare button?

[Pat]

One cup of AP flour is 5 oz.

Thanks. Is there much variation between different types of flour in terms of weight?

Does it have a tare button?

Yes, it does, and I forget about that. I'm not really that mathphobic, but it must sound like it

I'll give weighing flour a try when I make bread next.

[mdt]

Thanks. Is there much variation between different types of flour in terms of weight?

Here is the info that I use (all for unsifted flour).

1 cup AP or Bread flour 5 oz.

1 cup Cake flour 4 oz.

1 cup WW flour 5.5 oz.

[Pat]

Here is the info that I use (all for unsifted flour).

1 cup AP or Bread flour 5 oz.

1 cup Cake flour 4 oz.

1 cup WW flour 5.5 oz.

Thanks! (And, I doubt it needs clarifying, but the tare feature is not a separate button on my scale. That's why I forget it's there. I used an analog scale before.)

[phcooks]

I've made the bread twice, using roughly measured cups of flour (stick the cup in the flour bag, shake it level and throw it in the bowl) and the bread has worked beautifully both times. When first mixed, the dough is not slack at all, almost looks like one of those biscuit type doughs where one is admonished to not over mix. I would guess that those who are getting batter like results at first are adding too much water. After 18 hours it becomes quite slack but still holds together when I dump/scrape it out on the surface to to fold. Once folded and shaped I have found it useful to let let it rise on a plate/platter (on a well floured dish towel) that has raised edges that contains the edges of the dough a little, encouraging vertical rise. Obviosly one that mimics the shape of the baking vessel. Since I'm baking an oval loaf I'm using an oval serving platter for the final rise. It also facilitates the final plop into the superheated baking vessel as you can hold the edges of the dishtowel and the platter together and simply tip the dough in.

[jparrott]

Well, I had to do it sooner or later. Like mdt says, flour is cheap.

I've mixed the dough with the normal quantity of flour, ever-so-slightly-less water (scant 1 1/2 cups), and exactly one grain of active dry yeast. I give it about a 40% chance .

And that's an even thousand. Thanks be to Don.

[jparrott]

Well, I had to do it sooner or later. Like mdt says, flour is cheap.

I've mixed the dough with the normal quantity of flour, ever-so-slightly-less water (scant 1 1/2 cups), and exactly one grain of active dry yeast. I give it about a 40% chance .

Well, after 24 hours, there was little if any movement. I'm going to leave it a while longer, but the temperature of the dough has not gone up (evidence of yeastal activity). I may try the experiment again, dissolving the grain of yeast in some warmer water, so the dough doesn't get so cold in my (68 degree) kitchen.

[mdt]

Well, after 24 hours, there was little if any movement. I'm going to leave it a while longer, but the temperature of the dough has not gone up (evidence of yeastal activity). I may try the experiment again, dissolving the grain of yeast in some warmer water, so the dough doesn't get so cold in my (68 degree) kitchen.

With only one grain of yeast as a starting point it may take a bit longer for you to notice any movement. I would keep it for a couple more.

[jparrott]

I will...definitely not throwing it out for another couple of days. Will be interesting to see what kind of flavor it develops if it works.

[mktye]

I will...definitely not throwing it out for another couple of days. Will be interesting to see what kind of flavor it develops if it works.

Have you considered giving the dough one stir (or at least a fold) to help the little yeasties distribute themselves? Poor little yeasties, vainly trying to colonize a vast ocean of hydrated flour...

[RaisaB]

Does anyone know why you are supposed to flip it seam side up when you throw it in the pot? Reason I ask, I just reread the recipe after I threw mine in the pot and guess what I forgot to do!

[jparrott]

Just gave it a fold. Was starting to see a few extra bubbles on the bottom, so there may be some activity. Ahhh, science.

[jparrott]

Just baked off a "normal" version of this dough as two baguettes--super yummy. I took a walnut-sized piece of the dough and "refreshed" it with 1/2 c water and a scant 1 cup of flour to form a poolish. Going to try to make the next batch without added yeast.

[phcooks]

If anybody is interested there is a great bread board? blog? ...place, called "The Fresh Loaf" where amateur bakers and enthusiasts gather to exchange recipees, technique and discuss (and display) results. www.TheFreshLoaf.com. The thread on the NY times article is quite extensive there. It has good practical ideas/advice on sour dough and pretty much all kinds of baking.

[jparrott]

Taking advantage of the relative warmth of my kitchen this evening due to the warm weather, I've attempted the method with a less slack dough: 3 cups water, 1 cup whole wheat, 6 1/2 cups King Arthur AP, 5/8 tsp active dry (dissolved), 1 1/2 Tbsp. salt. We'll see!

[Pat]

Taking advantage of the relative warmth of my kitchen this evening due to the warm weather, I've attempted the method with a less slack dough: 3 cups water, 1 cup whole wheat, 6 1/2 cups King Arthur AP, 5/8 tsp active dry (dissolved), 1 1/2 Tbsp. salt. We'll see!

I'll be interested in the results. I've been using 1 cup ww to 2 cups AP and 1 1/2 cups water, with the original measures of salt and yeast put in with the flour. This is a really hard bread to screw up. No matter what I do wrong, I still get a great loaf of bread.

[jparrott]

The last time I replaced AP with WW 1:1, I got just too wet a dough. So trying something drier now.

[Pat]

The last time I replaced AP with WW 1:1, I got just too wet a dough. So trying something drier now.

My dough is still fairly wet, though not as much so as the first time I made the bread. I've gotten it to a point where it's wet but I can work with it pretty well. I find that the 1 cup ww to 2 cups AP gives a nice whole wheat loaf that's not too heavy.

[jparrott]

I guess I wasn't clear. The last time, I replaced 1 cup AP with 1 cup WW, and got too wet a dough. This time, I basically added 1 cup WW to the basic recipe. Baking it off now (from banetton on to stone), and it's performing very nicely.

[mdt]

I guess I wasn't clear. The last time, I replaced 1 cup AP with 1 cup WW, and got too wet a dough. This time, I basically added 1 cup WW to the basic recipe. Baking it off now (from banetton on to stone), and it's performing very nicely.

Go with 100% WW, works nicely, but you will have to reduce the H20 a bit.

[Pat]

I guess I wasn't clear. The last time, I replaced 1 cup AP with 1 cup WW, and got too wet a dough. This time, I basically added 1 cup WW to the basic recipe. Baking it off now (from banetton on to stone), and it's performing very nicely.

I pretty much deduced that from working with the doubled numbers you gave, but I didn't find it too wet when replaced 1 to 1. Maybe that conclusion is by comparison, since the first time I made it the dough was excessively wet, but I've found that measuring the flour more generously (and when I add flour as I work, it's AP) and cutting the water back a little, produces a good loaf of bread. I've been following people's comments elsewhere too, and it amazes me how much you can play with this and turn out a good loaf of bread.

[cjsadler]

Bittman has a followup article today on the no-knead bread.

[mdt]

Bittman has a followup article today on the no-knead bread.

Good info. Pretty much confirmed much of what I have found or thought.

[The Hersch]

The brioche was greasy

Brioche is supposed to be greasy, although "buttery" is the euphemism usually employed.

[mdt]

Brioche is supposed to be greasy, although "buttery" is the euphemism usually employed.

Um, no it is not. It should be buttery in flavor and crackle when toasting, but not greasy.

[The Hersch]

Considering that brioche should contain at least one part butter (i.e., grease) to two parts flour, I'd say it's supposed to be buttery (i.e., greasy).

[cjsadler]

Considering that brioche should contain at least one part butter (i.e., grease) to two parts flour, I'd say it's supposed to be buttery (i.e., greasy).

It should be buttery in taste, but if it's greasy, as I think Banco originally meant that term, that means it wasn't well made brioche (butter was too warm when incorporated, most likely).

[mdt]

It should be buttery in taste, but if it's greasy, as I think Banco originally meant that term, that means it wasn't well made brioche (butter was too warm when incorporated, most likely).

Correct.

[Pat]

I just started making an olive oil brioche and as I added the yeast into the mixture for the poolish, I realized it was rapid-rise yeast. Is that going to work? I know that's supposed to be added in with the dry ingredients, but is it going to ruin the bread to do it this way?

I went ahead with it because I'm running out of time and have pretty much the amount of ingredients I need for all the bread I'm baking today. Having to start over may mean I have to go out to the store.

I'm really annoyed with myself for not reading the package ahead of time. I thought all the Fleischmann's yeast I had was regular active dry yeast and that all the instant stuff was red star. I just saw the brand and tore open the packet and added the contents, then realized what I had done.

ETA: The bread came out pretty well. I searched around and saw there were some recipes online that called for making poolish with instant yeast, so I guess it's not as big issue as I thought it might be.