Baking Bread: Knead Help

[Jonathan]

anyone out there bake bread? if so, what types? where do you get your recipes? any secrets?

i have been baking this weekend; and have been making a rustic boule, mostly white flour, but some whole wheat flour. my secret is the la cloche i bought at william-sonoma. it works. really. beautiful crust.

[Ferhat Yalcin]

I`ve tried many times and different recipes of bread , so far I have no success. mktye is an expert with bread baking , you should talk to her.

[mdt]

For recipes I go to Carol Fields' Italian Baker or Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread. Both are excellent sources and have great tips for the beginner.

[Jonathan]

I HAVE BEEN USING THE BREAD BAKERS APPRENTICE BOOK.

what types of loaves you make, mdt?

[mame11]

I HAVE BEEN USING THE BREAD BAKERS APPRENTICE BOOK.

what types of loaves you make, mdt?

A must for anybody baking bread is James Beard's bread book. It is a slight little book with perfect recipes. A classic.

[mktye]

For recipes I go to Carol Fields' Italian Baker or Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread.  Both are excellent sources and have great tips for the beginner.

I second these two books.

Also Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes by Jeffrey Hamelman is a great book if you really want to get into baking bread.

anyone out there bake bread? if so, what types? where do you get your recipes? any secrets?

I bake bread at least once a week, alternating between S.F.-style sourdough and a "healthy" whole wheat/oat bran/oat/pecan/maple bread. Other favorites I regularly bake are pain a l'ancienne & deli rye, both from Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice, and a pain de mie using a recipe that came with my pullman pan from King Arthur Flour (which I think is the same as the recipe in Hamelman's book).

Not a yeasted bread, but last night I made some Brown Butter Soda Bread to accompany dinner. I came out really well using the recipe as written and will be something I'll make again.

The one thing that has made the biggest difference in my baking is to use two baking stones in my oven -- place the bread on one and put the other one on a shelf above the bread (as close a possible, but not so close that the bread will rise into it while baking). Doing this increased the oven-spring in nearly all of my breads by 50%. It is similar to your using la cloche but allows for more flexibility in loaf shape.

[ol_ironstomach]

I'm having equipment frustration today. After only having used my KitchenAid Artisan on soft mixtures, I gave Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne recipe a go last night. 325 watts bogged down pretty early with the mixing paddle, and much to my surprise it stalled hard and jammed barely a minute after I switched to the dough hook as directed. I finished the kneading by hand, and then set about to unjamming the KitchenAid.

Should this have been enough power? Would a Kenwood/DeLonghi/Hamilton-Beach 700 or 800 watt mixer have breezed through this task?

[mktye]

I'm having equipment frustration today.  After only having used my KitchenAid Artisan on soft mixtures, I gave Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne recipe a go last night.  325 watts bogged down pretty early with the mixing paddle, and much to my surprise it stalled hard and jammed barely a minute after I switched to the dough hook as directed.  I finished the kneading by hand, and then set about to unjamming the KitchenAid.

Should this have been enough power?  Would a Kenwood/DeLonghi/Hamilton-Beach 700 or 800 watt mixer have breezed through this task?

That is a good question. I've kneaded a lot of stiff doughs with my circa-1992 KA KSM90 (300 watts) and have never had it stop. Ever. On the other hand, my sister burned up two KSM90's right after I bought mine, so she switched to a Kenwood (I think) and never had an issue kneading anything again.

As to pain a l'ancienne specifically, I always mix it in a Cuisinart (an ancient DLC-70) to try to keep the dough as cool as possible (if it actually accomplishes that or not, is certainly open to debate ), but I would not consider it a particularly stiff dough or one that should tax a mixer overly much.

And while we're talking about mixers... last Christmas, I received a KA Pro600 (575 watts) and was quite surprised to discover that it does a noticably better job of gluten development than my smaller KA. It has a the newer-design dough hook, but I still wonder if it is not more a function of the bigger bowl.

[Jonathan]

my kitchenaid artisan does fine work on the reinhardt recipe for pain de campagne. i havent tried the ala ancienne, but if i do try it, iw ill let you know.

[AlliK]

KitchenAid users might enjoy reading this post on davidlebovitz.com (click) about touring the KitchenAid factory. And it sounds like you could call KA with your mixing issue to have them diagnose the problem. My mom got so excited reading about the reconditioned appliances, that she ordered a blender for about $50 ($129 originally) and is very happy with it.

[The Hersch]

Another wonderful source for bread-baking is the section devoted to it in volume 2 of Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child and Simone Beck.

[Pat]

A must for anybody baking bread is James Beard's bread book.  It is a slight little book with perfect recipes.  A classic.

That is my favorite bread book. I have not baked much bread lately, but I can look through my recipes over the weekend for favorites. The last bread I baked, in fact, was Beard's whole wheat soda bread for St. Patrick's Day. There's a walnut onion bread in that book that's excellent, and a water-proofed bread that I used to try to simulate a type of Armenian bread. (I'm usually the bread baker for my husband's family's Thanksgiving meal.)

[giant shrimp]

That is my favorite bread book.  I have not baked much bread lately, but I can look through my recipes over the weekend for favorites.  The last bread I baked, in fact, was Beard's whole wheat soda bread for St. Patrick's Day.  There's a walnut onion bread in that book that's excellent, and a water-proofed bread that I used to try to simulate a type of Armenian bread.  (I'm usually the bread baker for my husband's family's Thanksgiving meal.)

i used to follow his recipes all the time, but haven't been baking much bread lately. reading this thread, however, i realize that has got to change. i know you're not supposed to eat it this way, but you can't get home baked bread hot out of the oven and slathered with butter at a restaurant. i have never used a mixer and don't believe you need one.

[Pool Boy]

OK, maybe I know even less than I thought! So, what is the official definition of proofing? I had thought it meant allowing time to pass to allow the yeast to do its thing on the dough before you actually are able to work it out to the shape you want and then thus make-a-the-pizza. But I guess that is wrong?

As for warm places in the house, we only live on a single level and when we redid the kitchen, the cabinets go to the ceiling so I can't stick a bowl up there. I guess just stick it in the laundry room (no AC there) on a warm summer day, eh?

By the way, thanks for the King Arthur's tip. My wife had just thought of that yesterday and so we'll give that a whirl. But why keep it in the freezer? And that vacuum-packed brick of yeast, is it in packets? Or do you just break some off to use every time you need some (and do you keep it stored in the freezer too)?

[mktye]

OK, maybe I know even less than I thought! So, what is the official definition of proofing? I had thought it meant allowing time to pass to allow the yeast to do its thing on the dough before you actually are able to work it out to the shape you want and then thus make-a-the-pizza. But I guess that is wrong?

As for warm places in the house, we only live on a single level and when we redid the kitchen, the cabinets go to the ceiling so I can't stick a bowl up there. I guess just stick it in the laundry room (no AC there) on a warm summer day, eh?

By the way, thanks for the King Arthur's tip. My wife had just thought of that yesterday and so we'll give that a whirl. But why keep it in the freezer? And that vacuum-packed brick of yeast, is it in packets? Or do you just break some off to use every time you need some (and do you keep it stored in the freezer too)?

"Proofing" in baking can mean a few things:

1. Initially dissolving the yeast in liquid and, typically, a bit of sustenance for it (flour and/or sugar) and then allowing it to sit for a bit to see if it gets bubbly, thus getting proof that the yeast is viable.

2. Letting the dough rise, usually covered in a bowl. This is for better texture and/or flavor in the finished bread.

3. Letting the dough rise after forming into the desired shape. Also sometimes referred to as the "final proof".

Unless I am using yeast that I suspect of being abused (being kept in very damp or warm conditions or is past its expiration date) or if I am using fresh yeast (which is not granulated, but comes in a little disc and is only found in the refrigerator section of the store because it is very perishable), I never bother with proofing the yeast as in #1. It is rare to get a bad batch of dry yeast.

As to proofing as defined in #2 and #3, that is all dependent on your recipe and what type of taste and texture you want in your finished product. Most recipes call for a couple of rises, some a half-dozen and a few only one. If you have no proofs, you are probably making some type of flatbread -- crackers, pita, and such -- where the yeast is more responsible for flavor than leavening. Most thin-to-medium-crust pizza recipes do not call for a final proof (but they may need a "rest" for 10-15 minutes during forming so the gluten in the dough can relax and you don't have to fight it to get it rolled/stretched to the desired shape).

You probably don't need to find a warm spot to proof your bread in during the summer or possibly even the winter. Like adding sugar to a dough, warmth will speed up the action of the yeast. This is good if you are in a hurry, but you will generally not end up with as much flavor in your bread once it is baked. Your dough will rise in a cool spot, just not as quickly.

Lastly, I like to keep my yeast in the freezer because it protects it from both heat and humidity. Why? Warmth and moisture encourages granulated yeast to come out of "hibernation", but if they do that before you are ready for them and there is nothing around to eat, they will quickly starve to death. The KA yeast comes in vacuum-packed bricks and are around 2 cups of yeast once you open them -- that is a lot of yeast. I bake weekly and I still only go through about 4 bricks total in a year. I bought some tupperware containers with a tightly-sealing flip top, so it is simple to just scoop out the amount of yeast needed and dump it in the mixing bowl (and KA also sells a handy 2.25 teaspoon measuring spoon that just happens to be the amount of yeast contained in one packet ).

[mktye]

It's granulated, just like the packets and jars, and measures easily with a spoon. I store mine in a cold part of the refrigerator, but that's a leftover habit from brewing days...would it be better off in the freezer?

I like to store my yeast in the freezer because I think it controls the exposure to humidity better. I always kept my yeast in the refrigerator until I started using the large bricks, but if you are using individual packets of yeast, it probably makes no difference since they are well sealed.

[ol_ironstomach]

Good point; I keep a small working quantity in a Fleischmann's jar (with its gasketed lid) and the rest of the bag stays tightly wrapped and Ziplocked.

Yeast that have been wetted and starved to death can be worse than inactive - the yeast organism's digestive enzymes are barely contained when alive, and will autolyze the cell when dead, which can release all sorts of unusual flavors.

[DanCole42]

I confess I didn't know what "wild yeast" was (it's in the bread), so I looked it up. It's sourdough made out of thin air! It's capturing the yeast molecules that are everywhere in the air.

Whatever--the bread was delicious in the sneak previews--along with everything else.

That's how they did it in "days of yore."

One of the neater things about using a sourdough starter to capture wild yeast is that, along with the yeast, you also get local bacteria in the mix (good bacteria).

When I say "local" I mean that the sorts of airborne bacteria that would be attracted to a sourdough starter in, say, Silver Spring, are different species from the sorts of airborne bacteria you'd find in, say, San Francisco (which produces a well-known San Francisco sourdough thanks to the efforts of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis).

This means that any bread made from wild yeast will have a distinct and utterly unique regional flavor.

Not sure if the Michaels harvest their own or not.

Maybe this should more properly go in the bread thread.

[dcdavidm]

That's how they did it in "days of yore."

One of the neater things about using a sourdough starter to capture wild yeast is that, along with the yeast, you also get local bacteria in the mix (good bacteria).

When I say "local" I mean that the sorts of airborne bacteria that would be attracted to a sourdough starter in, say, Silver Spring, are different species from the sorts of airborne bacteria you'd find in, say, San Francisco (which produces a well-known San Francisco sourdough thanks to the efforts of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis).

This means that any bread made from wild yeast will have a distinct and utterly unique regional flavor.

Not sure if the Michaels harvest their own or not.

Maybe this should more properly go in the bread thread.

Wild yeasts are sort of a "science fair" experiment, I suppose, for us amateurs. One evening at RTS I asked Michael Landrum for advice on making natural yeast breads, and he gave me much enthusiastic encouragement and basic instructions, which I supplemented with some Internet research. I had a good starter going for a few days, when it inexplicably died. Subsequently, he gave me some more suggestions, which I am going to try as soon as I have a few weeks I can devote to the task. Oh, Michael told me that he just harvests the yeasts that are naturally present in the yeast-rich environment of his kitchen. I'll be happy to come even remotely close to the flavors he develops!

[cjsadler]

Absolutely fascinating article on bread baking without kneading in the NYT Food section today. Gotta give this a try this weekend.

"The loaf is incredible, a fine-bakery quality, European-style boule that is produced more easily than by any other technique I've used, and will blow your mind."

[mktye]

Suzanne Dunaway is a big proponent of a similar method in her book: "No Need to Knead". It is her recipe that I use for our everyday focaccia and pizza crust.

[cjsadler]

I've read about the no-kneading approach before, but the most interesting thing to me about this article is the method of cooking the bread in a covered pot for part of the time, which solves the biggest problem/PITA in home bread baking: trying to get a good crust by various methods of introducing steam.

[jparrott]

I guess the only next step is optimizing this method for different loaf shapes.

[xcanuck]

What about recipe modifications? For example, using different types of flours, adding cheese/seeds/whole grains, etc.

At any rate, it's a fascinating concept and I'm going to put it to the test next week. I'll be adding it to the Thanksgiving menu if it works out.

[mdt]

What about recipe modifications? For example, using different types of flours, adding cheese/seeds/whole grains, etc.

At any rate, it's a fascinating concept and I'm going to put it to the test next week. I'll be adding it to the Thanksgiving menu if it works out.

It should not be that hard to add/modify types of flour into the recipe. As a starting point take your normal mixed/alternate flour recipe and make sure that the hydration level is at least 42%. Based on how things turn out you can adjust as necessary. I think a batch will be mixed up tonight!

As for adding other items like cheese/seeds/etc., I wonder if most would sink to the bottom while it sat for such a long period of time since the dough is more lax. There is the possibility of folding it in after some long period of time and then letting it rise again.

And because I am curious, what other types of flour are you thinking about?

[edenman]

I've read about the no-kneading approach before, but the most interesting thing to me about this article is the method of cooking the bread in a covered pot for part of the time, which solves the biggest problem/PITA in home bread baking: trying to get a good crust by various methods of introducing steam.

Ditto, the steam production method definitely seems to be the most interesting thing here. The article doesn't mention specifics, but it would seem that his method lets the 12-18hr rise happen at room temperature, which is different from what I had read in "Bread Baker's Apprentice", where Peter Reinhart waxes poetic about the joys of a long, slow, cold fermentation. I guess the room temperature approach would help the "gluten molecules [be] more mobile in a high proportion of water"? At any rate, definitely worth more investigation, especially since I still haven't tried the long/slow/cold approach from that book even though I bought it months ago.

[mdt]

Ditto, the steam production method definitely seems to be the most interesting thing here. The article doesn't mention specifics, but it would seem that his method lets the 12-18hr rise happen at room temperature, which is different from what I had read in "Bread Baker's Apprentice", where Peter Reinhart waxes poetic about the joys of a long, slow, cold fermentation. I guess the room temperature approach would help the "gluten molecules [be] more mobile in a high proportion of water"? At any rate, definitely worth more investigation, especially since I still haven't tried the long/slow/cold approach from that book even though I bought it months ago.

There is a recipe link on the left side of the page that gives the exact info. It states to let it rise at around 70F.

[xcanuck]

---snip snip snip---

And because I am curious, what other types of flour are you thinking about?

I was mostly thinking of cracked whole wheat. I love the flavour and texture of it.

Also, I'd want to add rosemary and garlic to the dough (maybe not with whole wheat flour....just regular). I do that with my pizza dough and it comes out delicious.

[cjsadler]

The article doesn't mention specifics, but it would seem that his method lets the 12-18hr rise happen at room temperature, which is different from what I had read in "Bread Baker's Apprentice", where Peter Reinhart waxes poetic about the joys of a long, slow, cold fermentation.

It does specify room temperature for that whole time. This is interesting, as it runs contrary to why I thought cold fermentation was important when doing that long of a rise: because dough can be 'overproofed' by letting it rise too much/too long (the cold slows the rising). Seems that either 'overproofing' is BS or I don't understand it right.

[mktye]

I've read about the no-kneading approach before, but the most interesting thing to me about this article is the method of cooking the bread in a covered pot for part of the time, which solves the biggest problem/PITA in home bread baking: trying to get a good crust by various methods of introducing steam.

For more on various steam methods, there is also a lot of dicussion on the rec.food.sourdough newsgroup. Many of those bakers use covered pots and such. But the really avid ones retrofit their home ovens with steam (usually using metal tubing and a modified pressure cooker).

Not sure if this link will work, but here is a discussion, also from rec.food.sourdough, that covers just about all the methods of producing steam for the home baker (the 17th post down by "williamwaller" talks about using a covered pot).

Personally, I've gotten a bit spoiled about this issue since we've moved to the new house. Although tiny, the oven is a convection oven. However, there is something amiss with the ventilation in the non-convection mode and all of the moisture seems to be trapped in the oven (I still forget and end up with a face full of steam on occasion). So, for breads, I've been running it non-convection for the first 20 minutes, and then convection for the rest of the time. Now I'm not suggesting folks go plug up the venting of their ovens, but I am happy to take advantage of my current situation.

[mdt]

It does specify room temperature for that whole time. This is interesting, as it runs contrary to why I thought cold fermentation was important when doing that long of a rise: because dough can be 'overproofed' by letting it rise too long (the cold slows the rising). Seems that either 'overproofing' is BS or I don't understand it right.

I don't think overproofing is complete BS. When you overproof regularly kneaded dough the result lacks the structure to hold the bread into the form that is desired.

In this case there is no kneading and the gluten has not had a chance to form yet, which is what is happening during the long warm rise. Then you have to consider that the amount of yeast used in this new technique is about 1/6th of a normal recipe which produces a slower and less vigourous rise in the dough, therefore no overproofing. If you stuck this no-knead dough in the fridge with the small amount of yeast it would take a very long time to get the initial rise out of the dough. IIRC most cold fermentation is done for the second (or later) rise.

[cjsadler]

Then you have to consider that the amount of yeast used in this new technique is about 1/6th of a normal recipe which produces a slower and less vigourous rise in the dough, therefore no overproofing.

Ah, I forgot the crucial fact that so little yeast is used in this recipe.

[mktye]

It does specify room temperature for that whole time. This is interesting, as it runs contrary to why I thought cold fermentation was important when doing that long of a rise: because dough can be 'overproofed' by letting it rise too long (the cold slows the rising). Seems that either 'overproofing' is BS or I don't understand it right.

With that small amount of yeast in that volume of flour, the yeast should not be able to eat itself out of house and home in that length of time at that temperature.

I think you get a different flavor profile using a cold rise versus a warm rise, even when using commercial yeast (as opposed to wild yeast/sourdough). But this subject is also open to a lot of debate. However, in my opinion, the Pain a l'Ancienne in Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice" seems to definitively prove what a difference fiddling with the proofing temperatures can have on a finished bread.

(That crafty mdt! Distracting me with emails while I am replying... )

[mktye]

I don't think overproofing is complete BS. When you overproof regularly kneaded dough the result lacks the structure to hold the bread into the form that is desired.

But with a lot of breads, especially straight-method (non-sponge, biga, starter, whatever) doughs, if you let them go too long and they deflate on the way to the oven, you can often (but not always!) re-knead for a bit, reshape the loaves, let them rise again and then bake.

Overproofing and gluten degradation become much more of an issue with sourdough breads. Because the doughs tend to get more acidic during proofing (due to the bacterial, not yeast, activity), the pH level can get to the point where it greatly affects the gluten structure. An over-proofed sourdough loaf is not a pretty thing and there is no way to save it.

[phcooks]

I made this bread immediately. Total labor: 3 minutes, 10 minutes if you include clean up. It really is great bread, complex flavor and a truly crispy/delicate crust. Mixed it Wednesday, baked it yesterday, ate 1/2 last night, eating 1/2 tonight. Other than scheduling around the 12-18 hour sitting time and 2 hour final rise it was a piece of cake. I used an oval covered clay roaster that somebody gave me eons ago (it has finally found it's function in life, i was a little worried that it would crack when I dropped the room temp dough into the 475 degree clay-- but no worries) so I got a nice oval loaf. I think that the overproofing is avoided because of the relatively small amount of yeast: 1/4 tspn for 3 cups of flour and the lack of easy food source for the yeast (no sugar, no oil). Basically the yeast has to live off flour alone so its growth is not as quick. These are the classic ingredients of french bread: flour, water and yeast and the results are truly astonishing considering how easy it was to make.

Tough to make more complex breads because of the distribution issues--this is not a kneaded bread! Obviously different flours, nut flours, maybe finely grated hard cheese could be used as long as everything is thouroughly blended before the water is added.

[mdt]

I think that the over-proofing is avoided because of the relatively small amount of yeast: 1/4 tspn for 3 cups of flour and the lack of easy food source for the yeast (no sugar, no oil). Basically the yeast has to live off flour alone so its growth is not as quick.

The low initial yeast amount causes the yeast to grow in a more controlled manner. The lack of sugar, while an easier food source, does not make a huge difference. Make a plain white bread recipe and you will see how a larger amount of yeast will literally 'explode' the dough. Oil as far as I know does not contribute as a food source to yeast.

Another point is that the author mentions that his hydration level is around 42% he means based off of total weight of all ingredients, not with the flour as 100%. This calls for 3 cups of flour (15 oz.) and 1 5/8 cups of water (13 oz. water), which is about 46% hydration. I have a batch going (almost ready to fold and shape and rise) and it looks pretty good.

[jparrott]

If one is not particularly worried about exact loaf shape, do you think this bread would do OK baked free-form on a stone?

[mdt]

If one is not particularly worried about exact loaf shape, do you think this bread would do OK baked free-form on a stone?

It is pretty loose dough but should work putting it directly on a stone. You will have to flip it onto the stone unless you have it rise on a peel. If you do flip, be careful.

[mktye]

It is pretty loose dough but should work putting it directly on a stone. You will have to flip it onto the stone unless you have it rise on a peel. If you do flip, be careful.

Or let your dough rise on a piece of parchment paper and move the loaf (still on the parchment) to the stone with a peel or an inverted baking sheet (which takes a bit more dexterity). About halfway through baking you should be able to remove the parchment if you'd like, but I've not found that it makes much difference in the finished bread.

[jparrott]

Can't flip it onto a peel? Or will the double agitation cause it to snuffleuphagus all over the place?

[mdt]

Can't flip it onto a peel? Or will the double agitation cause it to snuffleuphagus all over the place?

You could do that too.

If you use bran flakes make sure not to use too much as the extra gets a bit burnt in the pots.

And another note, the recipe said to use a 6-8 quart pot for the 3 cup of flour recipe. My Le Crueset are only 3.5-4qt so I split the dough in half. In looking at them when I took the lids off there would have been no problem putting the full batch in a smaller pot.

The mini loaf and a closeup of the crust.

[mktye]

To continue with the bread porn...

The combination of a semi-malfunctioning oven, the drop in ambient humidity and good baking karma have lead to some really pretty loaves lately. Here are some pics of the sourdough I made on Thursday. I was really happy with the ears. I would have liked the crumb to be a bit more open, but I got distracted that afternoon and did not shape the loaves until later than planned, so I had to bake them a bit sooner than I would have liked (I was tired and wanted to go to bed! ).

Close up of the "ears":

[Pat]

My silly question is, when the recipe calls for instant yeast, does that mean regular granulated yeast in a foil packet (as opposed to a yeast cake)? I figured that, since the point is a slow rise, instant doesn't mean fast-rising.

[mktye]

My silly question is, when the recipe calls for instant yeast, does that mean regular granulated yeast in a foil packet (as opposed to a yeast cake)? I figured that, since the point is a slow rise, instant doesn't mean fast-rising.

Not a silly question at all! As I understand it, instant yeast is in smaller granules than regular yeast and it is meant to be mixed with the flour and other dry ingredients first and then the liquid added later. In other words, you skip the traditional "proofing" of the yeast.

Instant yeast is also "designed" to be more tolerant of higher temperature liquids. Since the yeast is mixed with the flour which will absorb a good deal of heat, use hot-from-the-tap water. If you add too cool of water (the traditional lukewarm), it will not active it as well.

Another issue to be aware of with instant yeast is that, if traditionally proofed (such as in a cup of water with a teaspoon or so of sugar or flour), it can eat up its food source very quickly (under 10 minutes) and starve to death.

Instant yeast is sometimes called "fast-rising" because it gets activated more quickly than traditional granulated yeast. The actual metobolic cycle of the yeast is not really any faster (as far as I know), but it just gets to work eating and producing gas more quickly.

Ooops, forgot to add: If you want to use regular granulated yeast instead of instant, you can do so. For best results, you will need to dissolve it in a some of the liquid (with a bit of the flour added) first, let it sit for 10 minutes or so and then add the rest of the dry ingredients and liquids.

[Pat]

Ooops, forgot to add: If you want to use regular granulated yeast instead of instant, you can do so. For best results, you will need to dissolve it in a some of the liquid (with a bit of the flour added) first, let it sit for 10 minutes or so and then add the rest of the dry ingredients and liquids.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Instant made me think fast-rising, but that didn't seem to go with the super slow process. This makes more sense. Thanks for the information. I had noticed recipes not calling for proofing but hadn't pieced that together.

After seeing fast-rising yeast everywhere for a while, I've been having trouble finding it lately. I'd try 3 or 4 stores a time before I'd find any, and the supply would be almost gone. If anyone else is having this problem (maybe it's just me ), I hit the mother lode at the Shoppers Food at Potomac Yards. I've got enough to last me quite a while now.

[mdt]

Here is a picture of the crumb.

The bread is very moist, but that will be easy to fix in the next batch. BTW I used a 50/50 mix of bread and whole wheat flours.

I used the regular granulated Active Dry Yeast and did not proof it and all turned out well.

[mktye]

Here is a picture of the crumb.

That looks great mdt!

And I knew we'd talked yeast before... the discussion starts approximately here (which includes a link to my favorite mail-order source for yeast).

[Meaghan]

Speaking of ears, this loaf has implants.

[voodoo if you delete me]

[mktye]

Speaking of ways to get steam into your oven... I just ran across this.

[phcooks]

From Reinhart, BBA, p. 32: "There are 25% more living yeast cells per teaspoon than in an equal amount of active dry yeast, and there are 3 times (300%) more living cells than in an equal amount of fresh compressed yeast" and "The reasons I [Reinhart] prefer instant yeast are simple: It's more concentrated than fresh or active dry yeast, it has a longer shelf life, and it can be added to the flour [directly] instead of hydrating first."

[mktye]

Possibly more than you'd ever want to know about yeast...

[jparrott]

I have some of this SoggyDough gurgling away. Will make a batard attempt using proofing basket, stone, and good ol'fashioned pan-o-water for steam.

[jparrott]

It's good. It flopped around quite a bit on the peel, but plenty of oven spring produces a squat, but recognizable batard. Great crust, open crumb.

One note: the flavor seems much better after about three hours out of the oven.

One more note: This has to be the mostest excellentest French Toast bread ever. Haven't tried it yet, but I just have a feeling.

[Yentruoc]

I have to say that baking this bread was one of the greatest culinary misadventures I have ever had. I was so excited to try out the NYT recipe for the first use of a recently inherited 40 year old Le Crueset dutch oven.

I consider myself a pretty adequate bread baker; I regularly bake my own bread and have had more good results than bad. I used King Arthur Flour and filtered water, like usual.

After mixing together all the ingredients, I had a flour soup. I added some more flour to get the shaggy consistency desired. And more. And more. I think I probably added about an extra cup of flour when all was said and done, and it still looked more like pancake batter than a bread dough.

So after 18 hours, it was still so soupy that I added more flour to get it to a point where it would form a (very sticky) mass. I liberally floured a kitchen towel (the only one that is not terry cloth) and soldiered on, letting the dough rest on the towel, covered for two hours. I heated up the Le Crueset in the oven. I felt optimistic- this could work out Ok afterall!!

Time to take the Le Crueset out of the oven to flip the bread into. Hmm. Can't get the lid off. After twenty minutes and the use of a screwdriver, I have pried the lid off the dutch oven. That's not a good sign! So back in the oven it goes, this time sans lid.

When reheated, I attempt to turn the dough into the dutch oven. About 1/3 of it sticks to the towel; I pry what I can off with a knife; leaving my towel with very well ingrained hunks of dough.

Soo...into the oven it goes. The result after 45 minutes? A nice looking little boule that has the moisture content of and tastes like wet paper towels (or what I imagine them to taste lik, anyway). the dish towel survived after a nice hot bath in the washer.

I applaud everyone else's successful efforts- the photos are beautiful. For me, I think I'll leave the no knead, no "trouble" method for another time.

[Pat]

I have to say that baking this bread was one of the greatest culinary misadventures I have ever had. I was so excited to try out the NYT recipe for the first use of a recently inherited 40 year old Le Crueset dutch oven.

Oh, I can top this, and I haven't even tried to put what's left of the dough in the oven yet. The dough seemed to be progressing just fine, but when I made it into a ball, it didn't quite hold together well enough. The transfer from work surface to nearby cornmeal-covered cloth resulted in half the dough flopping onto the edge of the counter and, before I could do anything about it, onto the floor. And our floor is not what you would call, uh, clean. So I have a small mass of dough which is not solid enough to be a ball, rising for the 2 hours. I'll see what happens. I can usually deal ok with fairly wet dough, but this dough is so wet that it's really loose. I'll try again and make sure the cloth is immediately next to the work surface and far back on the (clean) counter.

[mdt]

Oh, I can top this, and I haven't even tried to put what's left of the dough in the oven yet. The dough seemed to be progressing just fine, but when I made it into a ball, it didn't quite hold together well enough. The transfer from work surface to nearby cornmeal-covered cloth resulted in half the dough flopping onto the edge of the counter and, before I could do anything about it, onto the floor. And our floor is not what you would call, uh, clean. So I have a small mass of dough which is not solid enough to be a ball, rising for the 2 hours. I'll see what happens. I can usually deal ok with fairly wet dough, but this dough is so wet that it's really loose. I'll try again and make sure the cloth is immediately next to the work surface and far back on the (clean) counter.

You got it! The dough is very slack and care is needed in moving it around.

I have another batch going with 100% APF and it is way more liquid (same flour to water ratio) than the 50/50 WW version. I am also doing a second rise in the fridge to try and develop more flavor. We will see, flour is cheap.

[jparrott]

Yeah, I think the next time, I might try an overnight fridged rise of the formed loaf (in basket) and then bake from cold in the AM. Might hold a more rounded shape that way (and plenty of oven spring).

[Pat]

You got it! The dough is very slack and care is needed in moving it around.

I have another batch going with 100% APF and it is way more liquid (same flour to water ratio) than the 50/50 WW version. I am also doing a second rise in the fridge to try and develop more flavor. We will see, flour is cheap.

Ah. I used all APF. I'll try half whole wheat next time. Thanks for the idea.

[jparrott]

Mine was all APF, but was King Arthur (about 10-15% higher gluten than normal APF).

[mdt]

Mine was all APF, but was King Arthur (about 10-15% higher gluten than normal APF).

That is the only brand that I use and the 100% APF is still very slack. My 50/50 was with KA bread flour. My latest batch would have been 100% bread flour, but I was out. The horror!

[Pat]

That is the only brand that I use and the 100% APF is still very slack. My 50/50 was with KA bread flour. My latest batch would have been 100% bread flour, but I was out. The horror!

I had thought of using bread flour, but I'm low on that and have lots of APF. I have another bread I'm making soon that requires bread flour specifically, so that's why I opted for all-purpose for this. The next attempt I'll try whole wheat and APF.

[jparrott]

By the way, there's something to the crust of this bread that reminds me of the crust of Two Amys pizza. I'm definitely going to use this as pizza dough at some point.

To deal with the splooginess of doughs like this, I tend to coat the (portioned) dough in flour and work it a little bit by hand before rolling it by pin. You can get it paper-thin this way; then just be careful not to over-top.

[Pat]

Not to give a blow-by-blow account, but I baked the portion of the dough that survived . It was hard to get the timing right since it was a smaller amount. I think I may have left it in slightly too long, but it's got a nice crust. It looks like a ciabatta with a crusty crust. When I was tapping on it to see if it was done, I managed to poke my thumb through it, and the inside is nice and soft. I think I managed to salvage something from this project.

(To get it into the cast iron dutch oven I used, I folded the towel back against itself once to get the dough loosened and then picked up the whole thing and dropped it into the pot. This was the easiest time in the process that I had dealing with the dough. No problem with the stickiness at all.)

[jparrott]

A note here on cooking times--because of the wetness of the dough, the loaf gets to 210F internal temperature relatively quickly. I recommend continuing to bake from there to develop a firmer crumb and more complex crust flavors. YMMV.

[cjsadler]

I still haven't been home enough to try this yet, but if you haven't seen it, watch the video. You get a good chance to see just how slack the dough should be. Jim Lahey doesn't seem to bother too much about measuring, but in the video, he's only using 1.5 cups water (measured with dry measuring cups) to 3 cups flour. This is different from the written recipe.

[jparrott]

And there's no reason why you can't play with the slackness a bit. As long as it's pretty slack, the gluten will form with no trouble.

[mdt]

And there's no reason why you can't play with the slackness a bit. As long as it's pretty slack, the gluten will form with no trouble.

But if it is too slack then you get a pretty moist crumb, which is my only complaint with this technique so far. I think I am going to try and make a batch with no more than 40% hydration (based on total weight) and see if the crumb is more like that of normal bread. Other than that the result is pretty damn tasty.

My latest batch (see recipe below) produced a pretty slack dough that smelled great after the fridge ferment. The end product was good, but it did need more salt (say another 1/4 tsp from what is written below). The crust is thin and excellent and produced nice 'ears' from where the seam was when formed into a ball.

------------------

17.5 oz KA APF

15 oz H20

1 1/4 tsp salt

1/4 tsp yeast

Mix--sit at RT for 18 hours--punch down--sit in fridge for 10 hours--punch down--rest at RT for 20 minutes--form into ball and let rise until double--baked in 4 qt pot for 30 minutes with the cover on--then 20 minutes off

[mdt]

I still haven't been home enough to try this yet, but if you haven't seen it, watch the video. You get a good chance to see just how slack the dough should be. Jim Lahey doesn't seem to bother too much about measuring, but in the video, he's only using 1.5 cups water (measured with dry measuring cups) to 3 cups flour. This is different from the written recipe.

Not to mention that he states that the oven should be at 500 or even 550F. His dough was more firm than my last batch, that is for sure.

[Pat]

Not to mention that he states that the oven should be at 500 or even 550F. His dough was more firm than my last batch, that is for sure.

One other thing I noticed from the video is that he scooped the flour into the measuring cup, rather than spooning it in. For baking, I generally spoon the flour into the measuring cup so it doesn't pack down. For bread, since I add extra flour as I'm working with the dough, I don't want to have excess flour to start with. My dough was a little stickier than his but did have a decent amount of stringiness from the gluten. I was pretty impressed that I ended up with a decent loaf even after my mishap . My husband thought the bread was great.

[mdt]

One other thing I noticed from the video is that he scooped the flour into the measuring cup, rather than spooning it in. For baking, I generally spoon the flour into the measuring cup so it doesn't pack down. For bread, since I add extra flour as I'm working with the dough, I don't want to have excess flour to start with. My dough was a little stickier than his but did have a decent amount of stringiness from the gluten. I was pretty impressed that I ended up with a decent loaf even after my mishap . My husband thought the bread was great.

Put a digital kitchen scale on your Christmas list. It will take the guess work out of baking.

[Pat]

Put a digital kitchen scale on your Christmas list. It will take the guess work out of baking.

I have one but generally only use it for recipes that call for ingredients by weight. I don't know how good a job I'd do at converting from volume to weight. (And the one I have is fairly small with a flat top, which means I also need to account for whatever container I put the ingredients in to weigh them.)

[mdt]

I have one but generally only use it for recipes that call for ingredients by weight. I don't know how good a job I'd do at converting from volume to weight. (And the one I have is fairly small with a flat top, which means I also need to account for whatever container I put the ingredients in to weigh them.)

One cup of AP flour is 5 oz.

Does it have a tare button?

[Pat]

One cup of AP flour is 5 oz.

Thanks. Is there much variation between different types of flour in terms of weight?

Does it have a tare button?

Yes, it does, and I forget about that. I'm not really that mathphobic, but it must sound like it

I'll give weighing flour a try when I make bread next.

[mdt]

Thanks. Is there much variation between different types of flour in terms of weight?

Here is the info that I use (all for unsifted flour).

1 cup AP or Bread flour 5 oz.

1 cup Cake flour 4 oz.

1 cup WW flour 5.5 oz.

[Pat]

Here is the info that I use (all for unsifted flour).

1 cup AP or Bread flour 5 oz.

1 cup Cake flour 4 oz.

1 cup WW flour 5.5 oz.

Thanks! (And, I doubt it needs clarifying, but the tare feature is not a separate button on my scale. That's why I forget it's there. I used an analog scale before.)

[phcooks]

I've made the bread twice, using roughly measured cups of flour (stick the cup in the flour bag, shake it level and throw it in the bowl) and the bread has worked beautifully both times. When first mixed, the dough is not slack at all, almost looks like one of those biscuit type doughs where one is admonished to not over mix. I would guess that those who are getting batter like results at first are adding too much water. After 18 hours it becomes quite slack but still holds together when I dump/scrape it out on the surface to to fold. Once folded and shaped I have found it useful to let let it rise on a plate/platter (on a well floured dish towel) that has raised edges that contains the edges of the dough a little, encouraging vertical rise. Obviosly one that mimics the shape of the baking vessel. Since I'm baking an oval loaf I'm using an oval serving platter for the final rise. It also facilitates the final plop into the superheated baking vessel as you can hold the edges of the dishtowel and the platter together and simply tip the dough in.

[jparrott]

Well, I had to do it sooner or later. Like mdt says, flour is cheap.

I've mixed the dough with the normal quantity of flour, ever-so-slightly-less water (scant 1 1/2 cups), and exactly one grain of active dry yeast. I give it about a 40% chance .

And that's an even thousand. Thanks be to Don.

[jparrott]

Well, I had to do it sooner or later. Like mdt says, flour is cheap.

I've mixed the dough with the normal quantity of flour, ever-so-slightly-less water (scant 1 1/2 cups), and exactly one grain of active dry yeast. I give it about a 40% chance .

Well, after 24 hours, there was little if any movement. I'm going to leave it a while longer, but the temperature of the dough has not gone up (evidence of yeastal activity). I may try the experiment again, dissolving the grain of yeast in some warmer water, so the dough doesn't get so cold in my (68 degree) kitchen.

[mdt]

Well, after 24 hours, there was little if any movement. I'm going to leave it a while longer, but the temperature of the dough has not gone up (evidence of yeastal activity). I may try the experiment again, dissolving the grain of yeast in some warmer water, so the dough doesn't get so cold in my (68 degree) kitchen.

With only one grain of yeast as a starting point it may take a bit longer for you to notice any movement. I would keep it for a couple more.

[jparrott]

I will...definitely not throwing it out for another couple of days. Will be interesting to see what kind of flavor it develops if it works.

[mktye]

I will...definitely not throwing it out for another couple of days. Will be interesting to see what kind of flavor it develops if it works.

Have you considered giving the dough one stir (or at least a fold) to help the little yeasties distribute themselves? Poor little yeasties, vainly trying to colonize a vast ocean of hydrated flour...

[RaisaB]

Does anyone know why you are supposed to flip it seam side up when you throw it in the pot? Reason I ask, I just reread the recipe after I threw mine in the pot and guess what I forgot to do!

[jparrott]

Just gave it a fold. Was starting to see a few extra bubbles on the bottom, so there may be some activity. Ahhh, science.

[jparrott]

Just baked off a "normal" version of this dough as two baguettes--super yummy. I took a walnut-sized piece of the dough and "refreshed" it with 1/2 c water and a scant 1 cup of flour to form a poolish. Going to try to make the next batch without added yeast.

[phcooks]

If anybody is interested there is a great bread board? blog? ...place, called "The Fresh Loaf" where amateur bakers and enthusiasts gather to exchange recipees, technique and discuss (and display) results. www.TheFreshLoaf.com. The thread on the NY times article is quite extensive there. It has good practical ideas/advice on sour dough and pretty much all kinds of baking.

[jparrott]

Taking advantage of the relative warmth of my kitchen this evening due to the warm weather, I've attempted the method with a less slack dough: 3 cups water, 1 cup whole wheat, 6 1/2 cups King Arthur AP, 5/8 tsp active dry (dissolved), 1 1/2 Tbsp. salt. We'll see!

[Pat]

Taking advantage of the relative warmth of my kitchen this evening due to the warm weather, I've attempted the method with a less slack dough: 3 cups water, 1 cup whole wheat, 6 1/2 cups King Arthur AP, 5/8 tsp active dry (dissolved), 1 1/2 Tbsp. salt. We'll see!

I'll be interested in the results. I've been using 1 cup ww to 2 cups AP and 1 1/2 cups water, with the original measures of salt and yeast put in with the flour. This is a really hard bread to screw up. No matter what I do wrong, I still get a great loaf of bread.

[jparrott]

The last time I replaced AP with WW 1:1, I got just too wet a dough. So trying something drier now.

[Pat]

The last time I replaced AP with WW 1:1, I got just too wet a dough. So trying something drier now.

My dough is still fairly wet, though not as much so as the first time I made the bread. I've gotten it to a point where it's wet but I can work with it pretty well. I find that the 1 cup ww to 2 cups AP gives a nice whole wheat loaf that's not too heavy.

[jparrott]

I guess I wasn't clear. The last time, I replaced 1 cup AP with 1 cup WW, and got too wet a dough. This time, I basically added 1 cup WW to the basic recipe. Baking it off now (from banetton on to stone), and it's performing very nicely.

[mdt]

I guess I wasn't clear. The last time, I replaced 1 cup AP with 1 cup WW, and got too wet a dough. This time, I basically added 1 cup WW to the basic recipe. Baking it off now (from banetton on to stone), and it's performing very nicely.

Go with 100% WW, works nicely, but you will have to reduce the H20 a bit.

[Pat]

I guess I wasn't clear. The last time, I replaced 1 cup AP with 1 cup WW, and got too wet a dough. This time, I basically added 1 cup WW to the basic recipe. Baking it off now (from banetton on to stone), and it's performing very nicely.

I pretty much deduced that from working with the doubled numbers you gave, but I didn't find it too wet when replaced 1 to 1. Maybe that conclusion is by comparison, since the first time I made it the dough was excessively wet, but I've found that measuring the flour more generously (and when I add flour as I work, it's AP) and cutting the water back a little, produces a good loaf of bread. I've been following people's comments elsewhere too, and it amazes me how much you can play with this and turn out a good loaf of bread.

[cjsadler]

Bittman has a followup article today on the no-knead bread.

[mdt]

Bittman has a followup article today on the no-knead bread.

Good info. Pretty much confirmed much of what I have found or thought.

[The Hersch]

The brioche was greasy

Brioche is supposed to be greasy, although "buttery" is the euphemism usually employed.

[mdt]

Brioche is supposed to be greasy, although "buttery" is the euphemism usually employed.

Um, no it is not. It should be buttery in flavor and crackle when toasting, but not greasy.

[The Hersch]

Considering that brioche should contain at least one part butter (i.e., grease) to two parts flour, I'd say it's supposed to be buttery (i.e., greasy).

[cjsadler]

Considering that brioche should contain at least one part butter (i.e., grease) to two parts flour, I'd say it's supposed to be buttery (i.e., greasy).

It should be buttery in taste, but if it's greasy, as I think Banco originally meant that term, that means it wasn't well made brioche (butter was too warm when incorporated, most likely).

[mdt]

It should be buttery in taste, but if it's greasy, as I think Banco originally meant that term, that means it wasn't well made brioche (butter was too warm when incorporated, most likely).

Correct.

[Pat]

I just started making an olive oil brioche and as I added the yeast into the mixture for the poolish, I realized it was rapid-rise yeast. Is that going to work? I know that's supposed to be added in with the dry ingredients, but is it going to ruin the bread to do it this way?

I went ahead with it because I'm running out of time and have pretty much the amount of ingredients I need for all the bread I'm baking today. Having to start over may mean I have to go out to the store.

I'm really annoyed with myself for not reading the package ahead of time. I thought all the Fleischmann's yeast I had was regular active dry yeast and that all the instant stuff was red star. I just saw the brand and tore open the packet and added the contents, then realized what I had done.

ETA: The bread came out pretty well. I searched around and saw there were some recipes online that called for making poolish with instant yeast, so I guess it's not as big issue as I thought it might be.