Steve R. Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 On 7/3/2014 at 11:17 AM, DonRocks said: It's possible that Nadal's early exit from Wimbledon will quiet the GOAT (Greatest Of All-Time) murmurings for a short while - this is the third year in a row he hasn't made the quarter-finals. Remember, Federer made the finals in a Grand Slam (the four Grand Slam events being the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon, and the U.S. Open) 18 out of 19 times in a row (this means he was in the finals of almost every Grand Slam for 5 years!) Also, the semi-finals 23 consecutive times with a total of 35. It's easy to look at these numbers on a page, but very difficult to actually comprehend just how amazing these stats are. Both Nadal and Djokovic have legitimate claims as GOAT, but they're not there yet. Right now, if all three got struck by lightning, it would be Federer. That said, Nadal probably has more than one French Open title left in him; this, unless his body breaks down from his unprecedented physical style of play. In case anyone can't tell, I love all three players, and consider this the greatest age of Men's Tennis in history (yes, the equipment is *much* better, the training regimen is better, the athletes are better, *everything* is better than it was a generation ago, but World #4 Andy Murray - who many readers here have probably never heard of - would have beaten the snot out of just about everyone else who ever played the game). I cannot over-emphasize just how much racket technology has changed tennis - go to a random spot of this Borg-McEnroe match, for example - it was physically impossible to do the things that new technology has allowed for (today's 110-mph forehands were yesterday's 70 mph forehands - both are nearly equal feats of athletic excellence, given what they had to work with). Amazingly, Nadal is currently only in 11th place on the all-time clay-court wins list (but look at his winning percentage, and how is Bjorn Borg not on this list?) My goodness, how did Vilas win 644 clay-court matches playing in the same era as Borg? On the other hand, his 163 losses indicates that he didn't win 163 clay-court tournaments he entered (assuming he didn't play any round-robin events). Unless Nadal picks up the pace over the next several years, I fully believe that Federer has to be considered the better all time player. It will be hard for me to think of Djokovic as a potential #1 of all time but, as you say, the book's still open. The players just keep getting better and better and it becomes unfair to compare one generation against another. As someone old enough to have seen Laver et al play (in person), then to continue thru the Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi eras, I am continuously amazed at how each "new" great player is so much better than the ones before them. And I expect this to continue. I have some perspective on this issue. Having converted from tennis to squash in college & graduating in '74, I played NYC league squash in '81-'83 while I was ranked in the top 100 (amateurs) nationally. I played on a co-ed team and played #1 for a season, with the #2 player being the #2 women's pro. in the country. I could beat her in a match, barely, but I could (the #1 woman's player at the time could roll over me like I was hit by a train, but that's another story). At any rate, a # of years later, by the time Venus was coming up in the tennis ranks and I was playing tennis again (at a much lower pedestrian level), I remember standing court side and having a revelation that, in my prime, I wouldn't stand a chance against the then current top 50 women squash players and would be lucky to win a game (okay, 2 points) against a top woman's tennis player. Not even a tough analysis. They were just that much better. I cannot fathom how good these current players are. Yes, as you (Don) say, the training is better, the equipment much better and everything else is a better environment to produce better athletes. But, the bottom line remains -- these are the best ever. And soon there'll be better. By the way, I still have my Tad Davis Imperial wood racquet & the "new" racquet I replaced it with"¦ the Wilson T-2000. Both are strung and usable. Neither can be used effectively & I'll stick with my current Head Radical. Too bad I didn't keep a container of white balls.
DonRocks Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 On 7/3/2014 at 5:36 PM, Steve R. said: Unless Nadal picks up the pace over the next several years, I fully believe that Federer has to be considered the better all time player. It will be hard for me to think of Djokovic as a potential #1 of all time but, as you say, the book's still open. The players just keep getting better and better and it becomes unfair to compare one generation against another. As someone old enough to have seen Laver et al play (in person), then to continue thru the Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi eras, I am continuously amazed at how each "new" great player is so much better than the ones before them. And I expect this to continue. I have some perspective on this issue. Having converted from tennis to squash in college & graduating in '74, I played NYC league squash in '81-'83 while I was ranked in the top 100 (amateurs) nationally. I played on a co-ed team and played #1 for a season, with the #2 player being the #2 women's pro. in the country. I could beat her in a match, barely, but I could (the #1 woman's player at the time could roll over me like I was hit by a train, but that's another story). At any rate, a # of years later, by the time Venus was coming up in the tennis ranks and I was playing tennis again (at a much lower pedestrian level), I remember standing court side and having a revelation that, in my prime, I wouldn't stand a chance against the then current top 50 women squash players and would be lucky to win a game (okay, 2 points) against a top woman's tennis player. Not even a tough analysis. They were just that much better. I cannot fathom how good these current players are. Yes, as you (Don) say, the training is better, the equipment much better and everything else is a better environment to produce better athletes. But, the bottom line remains -- these are the best ever. And soon there'll be better. By the way, I still have my Tad Davis Imperial wood racquet & the "new" racquet I replaced it with"¦ the Wilson T-2000. Both are strung and usable. Neither can be used effectively & I'll stick with my current Head Radical. Too bad I didn't keep a container of white balls. All the proof anyone needs is the second point of this video featuring an older Rod Laver (playing with a wooden racket) against a younger Jimmy Connors (playing with a steel Wilson T-2000 - *extremely* primitive technology by today's standards). To paraphrase Sean Connery, it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight (this is something of a Laver highlight reel - Connors beat him badly him in this match). For a more representative video, look at this 1980 match between Chris Evert and Tracy Austin: Their precision is fantastic, but by today's standards, there's just no power. Incidentally, I'm not sure there has *ever* been a better wooden-racket tennis player than Rod Laver, and that includes John McEnroe. Harold Solomon, ranked #10 in the world in the 1970s, would play Eddie Dibbs (ranked slightly higher than Solomon) on clay, and they would get into rallies with shots called "moon balls" that went 20-30 feet over the net because the person on the receiving end was incapable of generating enough power to hit a winner. Points would routinely last 30-40 shots on clay, and the players would barely even be running. Today, the person on the receiving end of a moon ball would stroll into the net and smash a swinging volley at 100 mph, and that would be the last moon ball hit in the entire match. Lest anyone think Steve is exaggerating, he isn't. Technology has helped the women's game even more than the men's. Today, a talented 13-year-old girl (say, top 100 in the world for her age group) can routinely hit 80 mph groundstrokes which is far more velocity than any male in the world could have ever generated in the 1970s, and that includes the best players in the world such as Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall. Think about that for a minute - I am not exaggerating when I say "13 years old."
The Hersch Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 It has seemed to me for a long time that the current tennis equipment isn't so much "better" as it is "cheating" -- bat-corking, as it were. The greatest tennis player of the open era, by far, is Martina Navratilova. Her lifetime titles record leaves everyone else a long, long way behind in the dust. The greatest male player of the open era is John McEnroe, whose beautiful, subtle, nuanced serve I'd much rather see than one of these cannonballs that the current players are able to deliver thanks not to their ability but to their racquets. And when I say greatest male player, I obviously don't refer to McEnroe's singles record in grand slam events. He has 148 career titles, which doesn't even include mixed doubles or any of his Davis Cup success. Roger Federer has 87 titles. Rafael Nadal has 72.
DonRocks Posted July 4, 2014 Posted July 4, 2014 It has seemed to me for a long time that the current tennis equipment isn't so much "better" as it is "cheating" -- bat-corking, as it were. The greatest tennis player of the open era, by far, is Martina Navratilova. Her lifetime titles record leaves everyone else a long, long way behind in the dust. The greatest male player of the open era is John McEnroe, whose beautiful, subtle, nuanced serve I'd much rather see than one of these cannonballs that the current players are able to deliver thanks not to their ability but to their racquets. And when I say greatest male player, I obviously don't refer to McEnroe's singles record in grand slam events. He has 148 career titles, which doesn't even include mixed doubles or any of his Davis Cup success. Roger Federer has 87 titles. Rafael Nadal has 72. Yes, but. The emphasis has shifted at the highest level to "collecting Grand Slams" as opposed to winning the most tournaments - this pretty much started with Pete Sampras. Jimmy Connors used to go out and win a tournament every week, it seemed. You also included doubles in your McEnroe tally, and none of the top players play doubles anymore (because they're too busy trying to win Grand Slam singles titles). Before this week, I would have named the Williams sisters as an exception to this (but I'm too busy saying WTF? (*)) If you want to argue for McEnroe over Laver as GOAT in the wooden racket era, I won't disagree. And yet, there was Borg - last generation's prototype of Nadal - who was not nearly the doubles player McEnroe was, but was a much better clay-court player, so choose your priorities and go from there. In the chaos of technology, it's also easy to forget that today's generation of players are *much* better athletes than yesterday's. Players today are out there doing wind sprints for five hours while swinging the racket as hard as they can nearly every shot - there's no such thing as "throwing up a few high balls to give yourself time to suck in some air" anymore. Lindsay Davenport is being enshrined (deservedly) into the Tennis Hall Of Fame next Saturday night - she was a fine player, but she's also a perfect example of someone who could not survive the rigors of the modern game. Player's today have six-pack abs; Babe Ruth's idea of training was going out and drinking a six-pack. (And yes, there was an intentional pun on "high balls" and "six-pack.") (*) That said, Serena Williams has an autoimmune disease (which is, incidentally, a "viral illness" just as she's claiming), and probably takes medication for it - yes, it could be drugs, depression, or dehydration (if you have a stomach virus, it *is* possible to be that disoriented from dehydration, but you'd think she would have gotten IV fluids before the match) - regardless, I would be careful about jumping to conclusions. --- Edit - I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but seven weeks later, Martina Navratilova may be right. The only thing other than a mental meltdown it could have been is an adverse drug reaction - it was not a virus.
Steve R. Posted July 4, 2014 Author Posted July 4, 2014 On 7/4/2014 at 3:12 PM, The Hersch said: It has seemed to me for a long time that the current tennis equipment isn't so much "better" as it is "cheating" -- bat-corking, as it were. The greatest tennis player of the open era, by far, is Martina Navratilova. Her lifetime titles record leaves everyone else a long, long way behind in the dust. The greatest male player of the open era is John McEnroe, whose beautiful, subtle, nuanced serve I'd much rather see than one of these cannonballs that the current players are able to deliver thanks not to their ability but to their racquets. And when I say greatest male player, I obviously don't refer to McEnroe's singles record in grand slam events. He has 148 career titles, which doesn't even include mixed doubles or any of his Davis Cup success. Roger Federer has 87 titles. Rafael Nadal has 72. No offense, but yours are exactly the arguments that I couldn't disagree with more. To think that everything that came after McEnroe is "cheating" just disregards all the advantages that he had over those before him. Do you think that playing in shorts gave an unfair advantage? How about the sneakers that he had"¦ not significantly better than those a generation before him? How about those real wood racquets he used"¦ you don't think that they held the string pressure better than the ones used by Kramer et al? Or that they were lighter? Or that the strings were made of a better material? Or that the racquet was strung by a machine that did a better job? Really? He played in a context just like everyone before and after him. Simple as that. And, let's go to your last point. Granted, McEnroe's serve was a thing of beauty. Still is (I saw him play sets during the last few years, one against Borg, another against Agassi"¦ part of a pro league benefit at the club I played at (Sportime, which he co-owns)). But he combined that finesse with the power that his advanced equipment gave him"¦ he was a product of his environment & times. But let's compare apples to apples here and not compare his finesse serve with cannonball servers of the current time. There were hard serving non-finesse players during his time and there are finesse players now. You think Federer isn't every bit as smooth & is a cannonballer? Just because his racquet gives him more power than McEnroe had (as McEnroe's racquet did compared to previous generations) doesn't make Federer a Roddick. We'll never know if McEnroe would be as good as Federer if he grew up now, just as we'll never know if Federer would've been able to use his talents to equal or surpass McEnroe back then. But to dismiss Federer's talent as due to improvements in the equipment and not the athlete is disrespectful & just plain wrong. I love Martina & would never deny her greatness. But the argument is the same. Let her, as she actually was in her 20s, try to win a set from any of the top 10 women players of today. There's just no comparison in strength, agility, conditioning, power and maybe even precision. Even she'd admit that. Bottom line: you can argue that you enjoyed the old game you knew better than the current game. It's a statement I make all the time vis a vis basketball & I appreciate the part of your post that says "I'd rather see." But trotting out the same "they don't make 'em like they used to" argument that every older generation makes about "the kids today" misses the reality that they really are better. It pisses me off, but its true.
The Hersch Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Well, Steve R., you seem to want to compare McEnroe's technical advantages to players of the pre-open era, and I was talking only about the open era. But even granting all of your points, which are mostly fair enough--indeed, comparing players of one era playing with their physical gifts, their training regimens, their competitors, their equipment, with players of another, with all of their comparative advantages or otherwise, is ultimately useless--and even ignoring mine, that, for example, a McEnroe serve is a prettier thing to watch than even Federer's prettiest serve, the fact remains that McEnroe has a better lifetime record, by far, than any other male tennis player in the open era. Don's rejoinder, that the top players nowadays don't play doubles and mostly try to collect grand-slam singles titles at the expense of everything else, basically concedes the point: That today's players don't even try to match McEnroe's accomplishment doesn't diminish McEnroe's accomplishment, it diminishes theirs. (It also indicates, to me, that today's players are motivated more by the pursuit of money than by the pursuit of tennis.)
DonRocks Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Well, Steve R., you seem to want to compare McEnroe's technical advantages to players of the pre-open era, and I was talking only about the open era. But even granting all of your points, which are mostly fair enough--indeed, comparing players of one era playing with their physical gifts, their training regimens, their competitors, their equipment, with players of another, with all of their comparative advantages or otherwise, is ultimately useless--and even ignoring mine, that, for example, a McEnroe serve is a prettier thing to watch than even Federer's prettiest serve, the fact remains that McEnroe has a better lifetime record, by far, than any other male tennis player in the open era. Don's rejoinder, that the top players nowadays don't play doubles and mostly try to collect grand-slam singles titles at the expense of everything else, basically concedes the point: That today's players don't even try to match McEnroe's accomplishment doesn't diminish McEnroe's accomplishment, it diminishes theirs. (It also indicates, to me, that today's players are motivated more by the pursuit of money than by the pursuit of tennis.) "Roger Federer Heads Tennis Channel's List Of Top 100 Greatest Players Of All-Time" on tennis-x.com
DaveO Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Recently Agassi changed his mind, now suggsting Nadal is the greatest tennis player. Even these experts can't agree and as time goes on they are apt to change their minds. Me...I don't change my mind. Mickey Mantle is still my fave baseball player of all time, and I still think Babe Ruth is the best...and I never saw Ruth...so what the H do I know? (ooooops...we're talking tennis) sorry.
DonRocks Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Recently Agassi changed his mind, now suggsting Nadal is the greatest tennis player. Even these experts can't agree and as time goes on they are apt to change their minds. Me...I don't change my mind. Mickey Mantle is still my fave baseball player of all time, and I still think Babe Ruth is the best...and I never saw Ruth...so what the H do I know? (ooooops...we're talking tennis) sorry. I think if Federer had won Wimbledon yesterday, it would have really solidified his case for GOAT. That said, I'm on record saying that I'm suspicious about nearly everyone (and just because you're not heavily muscled doesn't mean anything - when I went to Clemson, a cross-country runner, thin as a beanpole, was found dead in his dorm room - although the Wikipedia article says he had a heart deficiency, what it doesn't say is that he tested positive for massive doses of steroids), so there's that extra "x-factor" that might never be known, even with players you might not suspect. Based sheerly on statistics and "dominance in his era," I would also go with Ruth - his pitching clinches it. That said, we *all* know what would happen if Ruth - without any preparation - stepped into the modern era. And so the classic argument goes on ...
Steve R. Posted July 7, 2014 Author Posted July 7, 2014 Well, Steve R., you seem to want to compare McEnroe's technical advantages to players of the pre-open era, and I was talking only about the open era. But even granting all of your points, which are mostly fair enough--indeed, comparing players of one era playing with their physical gifts, their training regimens, their competitors, their equipment, with players of another, with all of their comparative advantages or otherwise, is ultimately useless--and even ignoring mine, that, for example, a McEnroe serve is a prettier thing to watch than even Federer's prettiest serve, the fact remains that McEnroe has a better lifetime record, by far, than any other male tennis player in the open era. Don's rejoinder, that the top players nowadays don't play doubles and mostly try to collect grand-slam singles titles at the expense of everything else, basically concedes the point: That today's players don't even try to match McEnroe's accomplishment doesn't diminish McEnroe's accomplishment, it diminishes theirs. (It also indicates, to me, that today's players are motivated more by the pursuit of money than by the pursuit of tennis.) We can agree about the prettiness of McEnroe's serve. But it's not diving and there aren't style points. So, let's talk about the main point & here, once again, I think you conveniently leave out context and ascribe motivations that may or may not be there with the current players. I don't think that McEnroe would deny his own pursuit of money. However, in his time, the money came with playing as many events as he could. Today's players have a much harder grind with many more tournaments needed, 12months/year to get the computer points needed to earn a living. There's no way that McEnroe would have played as many doubles tournaments if he had to be on the current men's tour. That Serena & Venus (& several other top women players) do it is a mystery to me and probably also puts a hole in your argument about them chasing the big bucks. Nothing diminishes what McEnroe accomplished and I recognize it. But nothing should diminish Laver or others' accomplishments either. We build on history but don't try to argue, without context, that life was better in the old days"¦ the life span difference alone makes me appreciate living in this day and age. Not to mention the internet Federer would kick Johnny Mack's ass"¦ case closed!
DaveO Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 On 7/7/2014 at 11:24 AM, Steve R. said: ......... Federer would kick Johnny Mack's ass - case closed! What I have a difficult time imagining is how you can compare these or any other players of different eras. The game, based on technology is dramatically different. How would McEnroe fare with today's equipment. Similarly how would Federer fare with the equipment of McEnroe's day? We don't know how either player would play and how they would alter their games...either these players or any of the other greats of differing eras and extremely different rackets. Could McEnroe play a net game today??? Essentially nobody does. Would Federer, one of the few players who ventures to the net these days, do so more or stay back virtually all the time as he does now? How would either player cope with vastly differing pace of play? I can't even conceive of the argument for comparing players from different eras head to head against one another.
DonRocks Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 On 7/7/2014 at 11:13 AM, DonRocks said: Based sheerly on statistics and "dominance in his era," I would also go with Ruth - his pitching clinches it. That said, we *all* know what would happen if Ruth - without any preparation - stepped into the modern era. And so the classic argument goes on ... I read this article the other day which says that there are two athletes in American history that "transcended and transformed" their sport: Babe Ruth and Wilt Chamberlain. I can't disagree with this - not even Gretsky had the impact those two had. Back on topic, this may not help with the GOAT argument, but it's fun to watch: "Rod Laver Hitting with Rogerer Federer" on YouTube
DonRocks Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 The excellent tennis columnist, Jon Wertheim, has this to say in his Feb 18, 2015 "Mailbag" on si.com:"An argument against Federer being the GOAT is that he was not the greatest player in his own era"”Nadal was. But can't the same be said to argue that Nadal is not the greatest player in his era"”Djokovic is? What say you Jon?-- David, Urbana, IllinoisI say: Let's take inventory when all three are retired. Right now, it's like obsessing over stock options that don't vest for several more years. O.K., I'll bite a little"”for each point, there is a counterpoint. For every serve, there is a riposte. (Why, it's almost like ... tennis.) Federer has a lousy head-to-head against Nadal, but he's won more Slams, more titles and is more well-rounded on surfaces. Djokovic acquits himself well against Nadal, but has half as many Slams as Nadal does and lacks the Career Slam. We should also weight the "prime years" of a players' careers. And around we go. We all enjoy this is as a thought exercise. But it's a little circular, no? Part of the beauty of the GOAT discussion is the absence of hard, fast criteria. And yet this absence makes it difficult to arrive at real conclusions.
Tweaked Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 Having my first tennis memories from the late 1970s and being a tennis fan from the early 80s forward, i would vote for Federer, on the basis that he played with the grace of the wooden era while playing in the composite era.
Al Dente Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Here's a strike against Federer being the GOAT. 1
DonRocks Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Thought: Novak Djokovic might turn out to be Roger Federer's best friend when it comes to being named GOAT (Greatest Of All-Time). Federer is pretty much done. It's possible he could eek out 1-2 more Grand Slams in his career, but even that's becoming more-and-more unlikely as time goes by. At this point, Nadal would be in hot pursuit of Federer's legacy, either until someone else came along, or he got injured, or he got caught. But Djokovic has the tools to stop Nadal from this point forward, French Opens notwithstanding. And Djokovic will most likely not catch Federer - so, in essence, he's playing the role of spoiler. "Novak Djokovic Entering Rarefied Air With Recent Dominance" by Joe Kennard on bleacherreport.com
The Hersch Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Federer is pretty much done. It's possible he could eek out 1-2 more Grand Slams in his career, but even that's becoming more-and-more unlikely as time goes by. At this point, Nadal would be in hot pursuit of Federer's legacy, either until someone else came along, or he got injured, or he got caught. But Djokovic has the tools to stop Nadal from this point forward, French Opens notwithstanding. And Djokovic will most likely not catch Federer - so, in essence, he's playing the role of spoiler. "Novak Djokovic Entering Rarefied Air With Recent Dominance" by Joe Kennard on bleacherreport.com I thought we'd already established that John McEnroe is the greatest male tennis player of the open era. 1
DonRocks Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I thought we'd already established that John McEnroe is the greatest male tennis player of the open era. McEnroe might be in the Top 10; then again, he might not be, depending on what type of criteria you were using. I have a picture in my mind of him stiff-arming his forehand, raising his entire body upwards as he hits it - a waste of motion, and a loss of power by not utilizing hip rotation.
bookluvingbabe Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 My mother had a thing for Jimmy Connors. So I remember watching Connors and Borg and the rest of the tennis players of the 70s. Boring, boring, boring. And then there was John McEnroe. He made tennis interesting and exciting. I appreciate the skills of players before him and since, but the pleasure of watching the game starts and ends with John McEnroe. 1
Al Dente Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 On 4/28/2015 at 12:48 AM, DonRocks said: McEnroe might be in the Top 10; then again, he might not be, depending on what type of criteria you were using. What?
DonRocks Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 My mother had a thing for Jimmy Connors. So I remember watching Connors and Borg and the rest of the tennis players of the 70s. Boring, boring, boring. And then there was John McEnroe. He made tennis interesting and exciting. I appreciate the skills of players before him and since, but the pleasure of watching the game starts and ends with John McEnroe. I'm not going to let you get away with this comment. You cannot deface the sport of tennis by saying that only one person is worth watching. Nobody is saying that McEnroe wasn't an all-time great; I'm merely saying that he's not the all-time greatest, no matter how you measure it. Genius? Yes. Artist? Yes. Virtuoso? Yes. Champion? Yes. By definition, one must say that either Wilt Chamberlain or Michael Jordan is not the men's basketball GOAT. Is that disrespecting the one you don't choose? Absolutely not. The only credible "out" is by saying you refuse to participate in this silly bar game, which is probably the smartest thing to say.
The Hersch Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 I'm not going to let you get away with this comment. You cannot deface the sport of tennis by saying that only one person is worth watching. Nobody is saying that McEnroe wasn't an all-time great; I'm merely saying that he's not the all-time greatest, no matter how you measure it. "No matter how you measure it" is quite simply incorrect. As I pointed out up above somewhere, McEnroe is indisputably the greatest male tennis player of the open era measured by total career titles. But I agree that there have been other players well worth watching--to me, most notably, Boris Becker.
DaveO Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 Some entertaining shots by one of the magicians of tennis
DonRocks Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 The above threads got me thinking... as to the reference to Jim Brown and lacrosse, I'd simply like to add that probably the greatest athletes are NOT in lacrosse. (If they are that great and motivated they'll probably migrate to a sport with big money and big time professional sports.). Brown played lacrosse in the 1950's probably before most of the lacrosse commentators could have seen him. I'd bet he was so extraordinarily physically dominant over others it wasn't close. Having watched a couple of the other so called "greatest ever" in the sport, including Frank Urso a former 4 time first team all american in lacrosse, it was so obvious Urso was extraordinarily dominant over all the competition. He seemed like a threat to score on EVERY play. I think there was a huge and significant difference between his speed, strength and explosiveness versus the competition. Its visible every so often in lacrosse. I just don't think it attracts the elite of the elite. Try and transition this line of thinking into tennis circa 1980. 20,000 pounds in prize money in 1980 vs. 1,760,000 pounds in prize money in 2014. Connors, McEnroe, and Borg were about 5'10"; Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic are about 6'2". McEnroe had a career record of 16-21 vs. Lendl. Was Lendl a superior athlete? No, but he was *the very first* top player to use carbon racket technology, and developed a monster forehand that nobody could handle. Lendl was *the* prototype of the modern player. This line of thinking is exactly why tennis players of yesteryear just couldn't compete with the players of today (and every single one of them, with the possible exception of a proud and stubborn Pete Sampras, admits it).
Steve R. Posted May 1, 2015 Author Posted May 1, 2015 Hell, Sharapova is 6'1" and Venus is 6'2". It must be nice to be Isner height and serve from so many feet higher than the net. Just gotta make sure you earn enough money so you don't have to take the subways and can ride in a high ceiling'ed car.
DonRocks Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 The greatest male player of the open era is John McEnroe, whose beautiful, subtle, nuanced serve I'd much rather see than one of these cannonballs that the current players are able to deliver thanks not to their ability but to their racquets. And when I say greatest male player, I obviously don't refer to McEnroe's singles record in grand slam events. He has 148 career titles, which doesn't even include mixed doubles or any of his Davis Cup success. Roger Federer has 87 titles. Rafael Nadal has 72. And Rod Laver has 200. Several very credible old-timers say Pancho Gonzales was the greatest player ever to pick up a racquet, and that Lew Hoad was right up there with him. I've probably mentioned this in the past, but if I haven't, it's as good of a time as any: when I was 12 years old, I went to Don Budge Tennis Camp at the McDonough Campus in what is now Owings Mills, MD. My parents dug deep into their pockets to send me there for three weeks, to buy me clothing, equipment, etc., and I'll never forget that they did that for me - it was more expensive than our family could afford (and damn, I wish they were around right now so I could thank them again). Anyway, at the end of the three-week session, there was an exhibition doubles match with Don Budge and three of the counselors (this was in 1974, and Budge was 59 at the time). As part of the festivities, every camper got to play a few points against Don Budge (with a couple hundred parents in the audience), Budge being only player besides Rod Laver to win a calendar-year Grand Slam (Laver did it twice, once as an amateur, and once as a professional). Budge being eight years older than my parents, it was as thrilling for them to experience as it would be for one of us watching our kid hit tennis balls with Björn Borg. There was no "achievement" involved in doing this - every single camper got to participate - but in terms of "Holy Shit!", this ranks right up there with Shirley Povich having being friends with Walter Johnson. Budge won his Grand Slam in 1938 - almost 80 years ago; Laver won his in 1962 and 1969. I'm borderline ashamed to say that the campers put on a play for the parents - a parody of The Tonight Show - and I was, um, Ed McMahon, and at one point went over to the piano and played "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown." I remember doing Carnac The Magnificent, and as McMahon, I was the sidekick. The kid who played Carson/Carnac answered one unseen question (in a mystical accent), "And zee answer eez ... Dohn Budge!" then opened the envelope and read the question: "What do you do when a stampede is coming towards you, with the running cattle narrowly missing you by mere inches on both sides?" (Hey, part of this website is a chronicle of my life for my son to read in future years, so I apologize for including these silly anecdotes - rest assured, I'm the only person in the world who remembers such minutiae.)
The Hersch Posted February 4, 2016 Posted February 4, 2016 And Rod Laver has 200. No, Rod Laver does not have 200 open-era titles. He's probably the overall best male tennis player of all time, including the pre-open and open era, but he has only 102 open-era singles plus doubles titles, while McEnroe has 148, far and away the most for the open era (Jimmy Connors is 2nd with 124).
DonRocks Posted February 5, 2016 Posted February 5, 2016 Despite my recent postings about Djokovic - who has just recently emerged as "The Best of The Best" in terms of The Big 3 - if everyone were to drop dead, right now, right this second, it would be Federer. Djokovic is now, just now, conceivably being projected (by me) as a legitimate, future candidate for GOAT. Nadal is done, and Federer needs to hope Djokovic gets hit by a bus - it's *got* to be killing him, knowing he's *inches* away from staving off Djokovic, but he can't do it, at least not right now. Djokovic will need to win a half-dozen more Majors to earn the title - the thing is ... he can. Maybe. How can Rafael Nadal *possibly* be considered the *Third Best Player* of his era? Well, guess what: It's happening. 9 out of 10 French Opens. Damn. 1
DonRocks Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 On 6/24/2014 at 2:46 PM, Al Dente said: Not as exciting as I had hoped, but still kind of cool: Federer through Google Glass How about this? (I thought it was computer-generated, but apparently it was a real exhibition match). The Battle of Surfaces, 2007: Federer vs. Nadal
DonRocks Posted July 16, 2017 Posted July 16, 2017 Now that some time has passed, I'll take a shot at this (I'm not including players before 1960 because I just don't know): Absolute Greatness 1. Federer 2. Nadal 3. Djokovic 4. Sampras (I'm not sure if any pure serve-and-volley player should be on this list) Relative to Their Time 1. Federer 2. Laver 3t Borg 3t Sampras (I wouldn't know which to choose)
DonRocks Posted July 16, 2017 Posted July 16, 2017 On 7/4/2014 at 4:23 PM, DonRocks said: Yes, but. The emphasis has shifted at the highest level to "collecting Grand Slams" as opposed to winning the most tournaments - this pretty much started with Pete Sampras. Jimmy Connors used to go out and win a tournament every week, it seemed. You also included doubles in your McEnroe tally, and none of the top players play doubles anymore (because they're too busy trying to win Grand Slam singles titles). Before this week, I would have named the Williams sisters as an exception to this (but I'm too busy saying WTF? (*)) Now, Federer has taken this "Grand Slam-only" concept a step further, and made it "selected Grand Slams-only," as he deliberately skipped the clay-court season in 2017. It turns out (after he won Wimbledon this morning) that this was a move of absolute brilliance, as he has now won 2 out of the 3 Grand Slams played this year (he would have gotten killed by Nadal in the French, and that might have made him tired for Wimbledon; now, he has a legitimate shot at the U.S. Open). If I were Nadal, I'd play about five tournaments a year, and make them all on clay - he could win another 2-3 French Opens if he did this. What in God's name has happened to Djokovic? I just read through this entire conversation, and it's really interesting.
DaveO Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 I'm not sure how I happened on this video but here is an entire playoff basketball game from 1981 featuring the Celtics vs the 76ers, with Larry Bird, Dr J and a cast of 2 dozen. In watching I was struck by how different the game is now vs then with the biggest difference being the importance of the 3 pt line spreading out the game and necessitating players with different skills and strengths. Shooting is of course one skill but the ability to fly around out to the 3 pt line rotate and race back inside requires different types of players now vs then and vice versa. i think the same is true for tennis--actually more so. It makes it hard for me to join the "who is best debate" The game is radically different and the practice and then skills Borg displayed so long ago were based on the technology of the time and his ability to raise his skills within that environment. Which tennis payers of the different eras would adjust to the game in different periods and dominate the most? Well I don't know but I sure liked Johnny Macs style and touch in his era. Federer displays a grace that seems to indicate an ability to transcend eras at least in my mind. i'm not jumping in on the GOAT debate but I wish the technology would allow more net play so as to revisit the days when Johnny Mac displayed touch genius and others could strive to match or better it. It was a fun period to watch
Steve R. Posted July 17, 2017 Author Posted July 17, 2017 Just thought that this would be an opportune time for me to re-state my opinion on the answer to this thread's question: Federer. I've now been playing/watching tennis for over 50 years, started with front row seats for matches involving Laver et al (our H.S. tennis team was taken to MSG for pro tennis matches in '67-69 with courtside seats) & cannot remember being awed by anyone as much as by Federer. That's really saying something, as it's much easier to awe a 15 year old than a 65 year old. 1
DaveO Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 40 minutes ago, Steve R. said: Just thought that this would be an opportune time for me to re-state my opinion on the answer to this thread's question: Federer. I've now been playing/watching tennis for over 50 years, started with front row seats for matches involving Laver et al (our H.S. tennis team was taken to MSG for pro tennis matches in '67-69 with courtside seats) & cannot remember being awed by anyone as much as by Federer. That's really saying something, as it's much easier to awe a 15 year old than a 65 year old. Opinions are great. They merit respect. An opinion backed up by substance of one sort or another merits more respect (or is subject to debate with with different substance) One thing bothered the bejeebies out of me. I'm your contemporary and I played high school tennis. (I was lousy-though I played doubles competition as a soph--no big deal) My high school never got nuttin'. No front row seats anywhere. Not in tennis, baseball, football, etc etc etc. Nuttin'. I guess that is the difference between New York City and Jersey!!!! As a junior and already established as high school newspaper sports editor (in the final month of that year) I got to interview Willis Reed who spoke at our school sports awards ceremony. I heard we had to pay him to get out there. (Regardless a great thrill) Another example of NYC vs Northern NJ
DonRocks Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 I had a disturbing realization today: In the Open Era, one of these players, by definition, is not in the Top 5: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Djokovic, Nadal, Federer As an aside, all six of these players are still alive (not all that surprising, but pretty awesome considering the Open Era began nearly 50 years ago).
DonRocks Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 On 7/31/2017 at 6:45 PM, DonRocks said: I had a disturbing realization today: In the Open Era, one of these players, by definition, is not in the Top 5: Laver, Borg, Sampras, Djokovic, Nadal, Federer As an aside, all six of these players are still alive (not all that surprising, but pretty awesome considering the Open Era began nearly 50 years ago). This is an intelligent and thoughtful commentary on The Big Three (Plus One): That said, McEnroe's final shot was "PhotoShopped" - he *clearly* hit that backhand down the line (which would be to Cash's forehand based on where McEnroe was standing), but when they showed the result, it was zinging cross-court: It was two separate shots edited into one. Busted! --- John McEnroe (DonRocks)
DaveO Posted June 1, 2018 Posted June 1, 2018 I'm not sure how this popped into my head (must be French Open related), but I was curious about different players on different surfaces and found this article comparing Federer, Nadal and Djokovic on Clay, Grass, and hard surfaces They are all great on all surfaces, obviously Nadal is supreme on clay, and what isn't mentioned is that as fantastic as their records are on all surfaces they would each do better if they didn't have to face one another. Anyway it had me think about this thread and discussion. I skimmed through it. Far be it from me to vote for a best. Frankly I liked watching Johnny Mac play. That doesn't make him best. But the article above aligns with some of the above commentary above related to how different technologies and racquets clearly had an impact on how the game is played and probably needs to be factored into a discussion of "all time best". Racquet technology dictated styles of play and then during different periods certain players were supreme on certain surfaces; that has been the case for decades and continues to this day.
DaveO Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 21 hours ago, DonRocks said: for those of you who think Johnny Mac was the pinnacle of tennis genius, Peter Fleming was a noted pro tennis player during the late ‘70’s and into the ‘80’s. His fame was rooted in doubles where he often teamed with McEnroe to win championships. His great line during that period was something along the lines of (paraphrased) “The Best doubles team in the world is Johnny Mac and anyone.” (parenthetically I was aware of and paid attention to Fleming in that he played high school tennis in the same conference that I played in. I’m older than him and while I played doubles as a soph I didn’t love it and did not compete in the following years. Undoubtedly had I continued and kept improving by massive amounts and then met Fleming on the court he would have beat me love and love with both hands tied behind his back) In any case I don’t want to jump into “the best ever” discussion but MAC was great to watch and his doubles skills were even better.
DaveO Posted July 12, 2018 Posted July 12, 2018 On 7/17/2017 at 11:11 AM, Steve R. said: Just thought that this would be an opportune time for me to re-state my opinion on the answer to this thread's question: Federer. I've now been playing/watching tennis for over 50 years, started with front row seats for matches involving Laver et al (our H.S. tennis team was taken to MSG for pro tennis matches in '67-69 with courtside seats) & cannot remember being awed by anyone as much as by Federer. That's really saying something, as it's much easier to awe a 15 year old than a 65 year old. I happened to run into an article that cites the opinion of another old old viewer and player and commentator on tennis. He may have almost as much perspective and experience as @Steve R.. This guy has also seen it all. He listed his top 5 of all time time. I was surprised by one of his omissions: Johnny Mac’s top five
Steve R. Posted July 12, 2018 Author Posted July 12, 2018 Of course I gotta add another 2cents here. There are players who I think are the best and there are players that I love watching. Federer is at the top of my list on both. For me, Johnny Mac is much more one of those I love watching, but who I don't think showed as one of the greatest players ever. And Sampras is the opposite for me, although I admit that during his reign I wasn't watching as much tennis, since I was fully engrossed in squash. Lupica's article is nicely written. Thanks.
DaveO Posted July 12, 2018 Posted July 12, 2018 4 hours ago, Steve R. said: Lupica's article is nicely written. Even though I’ved lived outside NY for decades I still like to pick up a copy of the Daily News on occasion. Between headline writers, front page pictures, acerbic columnists and Lupica and the sports coverage it’s still a fun read. Are they any good on dining? I’ve never even looked for that topic. I’d think they would be great for pizza
DonRocks Posted July 12, 2018 Posted July 12, 2018 5 hours ago, DaveO said: I was surprised by one of his omissions: Johnny Mac’s top five In case you're referring to Borg (and not McEnroe himself), he's probably accounting for longevity.
DonRocks Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 This is a fantastic highlight reel to watch, for those who miss the classic, old-school "serve-and-volley vs. all-court" matchup: Arthur Ashe vs. Ilie Nastase. Ashe was so good - he was a straightforward, come-at-you player; Nastase was an artist with the racket who could produce a jaw-dropping shot at any time. 1
DonRocks Posted July 27, 2018 Posted July 27, 2018 Boy, here's a shot you don't see on many highlight reels - look at this backhand overhead by Federer at 2:20 in the video. It's fascinating to see a relatively raw - but insanely talented - Roger Federer pitted against tough-as-nails Michael Chang, whose game is good enough to bring out the best in Federer.
DaveO Posted August 18, 2018 Posted August 18, 2018 On 7/12/2018 at 9:33 AM, Steve R. said: Lupica's article is nicely written. Thanks. Lupica is no longer with The Daily News Quite sad. Print journalism in newspapers and magazines is taking an horrendous beating. It’s tragic imho
DonRocks Posted August 18, 2018 Posted August 18, 2018 1 hour ago, DaveO said: Lupica is no longer with The Daily News Quite sad. Print journalism in newspapers and magazines is taking an horrendous beating. It’s tragic imho Furthermore, Jon Wertheim - perhaps the best tennis writer in the country - is now doing pieces for 60 Minutes. https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-leaning-tower-of-san-francisco/
DonRocks Posted September 10, 2018 Posted September 10, 2018 Think about this for a moment: The winners of the 8 Grand Slam Men's Singles events over the past-two years (2017 and 2018) have been: Roger Federer (3) - first Grand Slam, 2003, current total: 20 Rafael Nadal (3) - first Grand Slam, 2005, current total: 17 Novak Djokovic (2) - first Grand Slam, 2008, current total: 14 This is the greatest moment that Men's Tennis will experience for a long, long time, and it has been going on for almost this entire century: The three men have been responsible for 51 Grand Slam Men's Singles titles, which is just shy of 13-years worth (that's the equivalent of one of them winning every single Grand Slam, for 13 years). Since Federer won his 1st Wimbledon in 2003, there have been a total of 62 Grand Slam Men's Singles FInals: 57 out of the 62 have featured at least one of these three men.
DonRocks Posted January 28, 2019 Posted January 28, 2019 Advantage Djokovic. Djokovic is 31-years old, with 15 majors. He has won the last three, all in straight sets! Nadal is 32, with 17 majors. He won the French last year. Federer is 37, with 20 majors. He won the Australian last year. Pete Sampras, with 14, is the one who made winning majors a "thing," as he pursued Roy Emerson's record of 12 - who would have thought that THREE people would have beaten Sampras' record in the past twenty years?!
DonRocks Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 I got caught up in this article, and realized it should probably be here: "No One Better than Novak Djokovic at his Best: Andre Agassi" on timesofindia.indiatimes.com
Keithstg Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 42 minutes ago, DonRocks said: I got caught up in this article, and realized it should probably be here: "No One Better than Novak Djokovic at his Best: Andre Agassi" on timesofindia.indiatimes.com Andre has an interesting perspective. As a huge Sampras/ Fed guy this bums me out, but I can see his point. Thought about waking up early to watch the Australian open final but didn't as I don't care for Djokovic or Nadal. Then had to go back and watch once I saw the scores. What a systemic beat-down! Never see Nadal get handled like that. Makes me think Andre has a solid point. 1
DaveO Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 I'm not enough of a fan or tennis historian to name all these players, but per the blurb I saw on my FB feed all of the men in this photo were at one time ranked #1 in mens tennis. Can you name them?
DonRocks Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 3 hours ago, DaveO said: I'm not enough of a fan or tennis historian to name all these players, but per the blurb I saw on my FB feed all of the men in this photo were at one time ranked #1 in mens tennis. Can you name them? Left to right: Mats Wilander, Ivan Lendl, Jimmy Connors, Stefan Edberg, Ilie Nastase, Gustavo Kuerten, Novak Djokovic, John McEnroe, Rafael Nadal, Bjorn Borg, Roger Federer, Jim Courier, Andy Roddick, Lleyton Hewitt Interestingly, just yesterday I looked up Marcelo Rios - he’s the only player in the open era to be ranked #1 without ever having won a Grand Slam. 1
DaveO Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 29 minutes ago, DonRocks said: Left to right: Mats Wilander, Ivan Lendl, Jimmy Connors, Stefan Edberg, Ilie Nastase, Gustavo Kuerten, Novak Djokovic, John McEnroe, Rafael Nadal, Bjorn Borg, Roger Federer, Jim Courier, Andy Roddick, Lleyton Hewitt Interestingly, just yesterday I looked up Marcelo Rios - he’s the only player in the open era to be ranked #1 without ever having won a Grand Slam. I know that for at least part of one year Boris Becker was ranked #1 in tennis. He isn't in the photo. How many other pro's going back to the earliest #1 in the photo (I'm guessing Conners or Nastase) were ranked #1 at some point and are not in the photo?
DonRocks Posted April 23, 2019 Posted April 23, 2019 On 4/23/2019 at 7:02 PM, DaveO said: I know that for at least part of one year Boris Becker was ranked #1 in tennis. He isn't in the photo. How many other pro's going back to the earliest #1 in the photo (I'm guessing Conners or Nastase) were ranked #1 at some point and are not in the photo? Nastase is the earliest #1 in the photo; Laver is the first #1 in the Open Era (1968 and after) - I think the only one on this list no longer alive is Ashe, and that was just due to terrible luck [DaveO's reply here] - note that the list is for year-end #1s only; people like Rios, Safin, etc. were #1 mid-year, as the rankings were updated on a rolling basis.
Tweaked Posted July 11, 2019 Posted July 11, 2019 A classico in the making? Wimbledon 2019 Men's Semifinal Who: Roger Federer vs. Rafael Nadal When: Friday, July 12, 2019 Time: 8 a.m. EDT TV: ESPN, BBC One and BBC Two (UK) Livestream: WatchESPN
Steve R. Posted July 12, 2019 Author Posted July 12, 2019 Absolutely. And then, most likely followed 2 days later by another classic with the winner vs. Djokovic.
DonRocks Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, Steve R. said: Absolutely. And then, most likely followed 2 days later by another classic with the winner vs. Djokovic. "Enjoy these while you can - there won't be many more."-- Don Rockwell, 2008 1
Tweaked Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 looks like Djokovic is playing now (8am) followed by Federer v Nadal, with an estimated start time of 10:30am.
DonRocks Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Tweaked said: looks like Djokovic is playing now (8am) followed by Federer v Nadal, with an estimated start time of 10:30am. Watching Djokovic serve at 3-1 in the first set, it seems almost unfathomable that Roberto Bautista Agut beat him twice this year on outdoor hard court. That said, despite the score, Djokovic is missing a lot of shots he normally doesn't miss. Want to know what's cool? Djokovic lives - for the moment - in Monte Carlo (gee, I wonder why?) - 2 1/2-years ago, I ate at the restaurant he opened there. Some interesting details about it (and him) here.
Steve R. Posted July 12, 2019 Author Posted July 12, 2019 Still watching? Can you now see how this guy can beat him? I’d be surprised if Djokovic doesn’t win, but he better figure out a way to keep up his rhythm & concentration over the long haul in order to do it.
DonRocks Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 33 minutes ago, Steve R. said: Still watching? Can you now see how this guy can beat him? I’d be surprised if Djokovic doesn’t win, but he better figure out a way to keep up his rhythm & concentration over the long haul in order to do it. Yep, it's 1-all in sets now - Bautista Agut upped his game in a big way, and Djokovic is playing as poorly as I've seen him play in quite awhile. It's interesting that Djokovic doesn't seem to match up well with Bautista Agut: Djokovic's flat baseline game plays right into Bautista Agut's strengths; Nadal's topspin would give him more trouble, and Federer's net threat would also get him out of rhythm, but Djokovic's ball machine-like style isn't hurting Bautista Agut (who is hitting a *lot* of short balls, but Djoker refuses to come into net). These two look very different, but they're actually playing a very similar style of tennis, and Bautista Agut seems perfectly willing to go toe-to-toe with Djokovic, hustling after shots, and getting a lot of balls in play - I'm certain Djokovic is hitting the ball deeper into the court, but he's not taking advantage of it. Should Djokovic lose this match (and it's currently on-serve in the third set), the next match will essentially be the finals, and will take on an even greater importance.
Steve R. Posted July 12, 2019 Author Posted July 12, 2019 As I said, I’ll be surprised if Djokovic doesn’t win. And, unfortunately (since I’m a Federer fan and like Nadal just fine), I think that Djokovic comes out of this stronger, having had to play real grass court tennis today.
DonRocks Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 Now all Federer needs to do is beat Djokovic. Glad I don't have any heart problems.
DaveO Posted July 12, 2019 Posted July 12, 2019 39 minutes ago, DonRocks said: Now all Federer needs to do is beat Djokovic. Glad I don't have any heart problems. So Sunday Federer has to take on still ANOTHER all time great--Djokovic. OY But wait-Djoker also has to take on an all TIME GREAT. Looking forward to the match.
DonRocks Posted July 13, 2019 Posted July 13, 2019 The race to be the 'GOAT' Grand Slam titles year-by-year Federer Nadal Djokovic
Steve R. Posted July 14, 2019 Author Posted July 14, 2019 Interesting. Am I to infer that you closely correlate Grand Slam titles with the GOAT designation?
DonRocks Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 44 minutes ago, Steve R. said: Interesting. Am I to infer that you closely correlate Grand Slam titles with the GOAT designation? Well. Ever since Pete Sampras went on a mission to surpass Roy Emerson's record, that has become the benchmark of "greatness." The Hersch would stubbornly disagree if he were still here, but it's true that there's a definite pre-Sampras and post-Sampras measuring stick in the mainstream tennis media. Do I think Margaret Court is Serena Williams' equal because they each have 23 Grand Slam singles titles? *Hell no*. And I think Rod Laver would still be ahead of Roger Federer, had he been eligible in the amateur-only years - he has 11; he was ineligible for 20 more - if he'd won half of those (and I think he would have, because he was healthy and in his prime), he'd be the Babe Ruth of tennis, if he isn't already. Of course, if they'd started the Live Ball Era in 1915 instead of 1920, Babe Ruth would never have pitched, and he'd have 850 home runs (amazingly, that might have tarnished his legend, since we'd never have known about his superb pitching statistics).
Steve R. Posted July 14, 2019 Author Posted July 14, 2019 Okay. I wasn’t really going after #s of Grand Slams being more important, but unattainable for others (like Laver). I was more wondering why your “Race To Be The GOAT” title wasn’t followed by more than one graph (comparing Grand Slams won), like one of weeks ranked as #1, record/titles in secondary tournaments, # of titles on different surfaces, etc. Not asking you to do the research.... just suggesting that stats other than Grand Slam titles would go into my definition of the GOAT.
DonRocks Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 As Djokovic struggles mightily to hold serve at 1-2 in the first set, it's obvious that Federer has caught him off-guard by hitting that damnable, low, slicing backhand to him. --- ETA: So, as Djokovic prepares to serve at 5-6 in the first set, without any breaks, I ask myself the same question as I did when I saw Jimmy Connors, Bjorn Borg, John McEnroe, and Pete Sampras, but this time *I really mean it* ... how will tennis possibly achieve a higher level than this? One time, Jon Karl and I went to the finals of the DC tournament, and saw Andre Agassi barely defeat Yevgeny Kafelnikov - I distinctly remember saying to him that we'd perhaps just seen the finest tennis ever played, and he agreed. I think players are up against human limits at this point. As I type this sentence, both players are on-serve in the first-set tiebreaker. We may need Anton Chigurh to come toss a coin - this is ridiculous. --- ETA: Djokovic just won the first set - the forehand miss by Federer when he was up 3-5 in the tiebreaker was enormous - he would have had two serves of his own being up 6-3. At this point, I don't see Federer being able to come back and win three sets against the younger Djokovic. --- ETA: Federer just went up 4-0 in the second set, and Djokovic looks dejected and exhausted - his energy level has plummeted, and he needs some adrenaline, or something ... things are going to be very interesting. --- ETA: Wow. Federer totally guessed which side Djokovic was going to, in order to go up 8-7 in the fifth set. --- ETA: How on earth did Djokovic break Federer to tie it at 8-8?! --- ETA: Greatest match in history? 1
Tweaked Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 The ebb and flow of tennis is one of the sport's more remarkable and fascinating aspects.
DonRocks Posted July 14, 2019 Posted July 14, 2019 I am *so* glad these two lost in the finals - they pull this crap, and then they're *laughing* about it back at the baseline. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHsOkBl1wRE
Steve R. Posted July 15, 2019 Author Posted July 15, 2019 Over 50 years of watching tennis & I have never seen a better match. As aFederer fan, it will take a while for me to get over him unsuccessfully serving at double match point - so damn close to winning another major - but all credit to Djokovic for hanging in there and breaking. They are both truly great players in every way. I just wish that I could like Djokovic more. But I don’t. 1 1
DonRocks Posted July 15, 2019 Posted July 15, 2019 Here's a thought I've never heard of anyone proposing before: When all is said and done, if I was forced to bet at gunpoint, I would put my money on Djokovic to come out on top in terms of "Number of Grand Slam Singles Championships Won." Nevertheless, it's highly unlikely - but not impossible - that all 3 of the Big 3 could retire with the exact same number, perhaps 20 or 21. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head! I had an ever-so-slight preference for Djokovic in yesterday's Wimbledon final; I'm going to be pulling hard for Federer in the U.S. Open.
DonRocks Posted June 17, 2021 Posted June 17, 2021 On 7/15/2019 at 1:57 PM, DonRocks said: Here's a thought I've never heard of anyone proposing before: When all is said and done, if I was forced to bet at gunpoint, I would put my money on Djokovic to come out on top in terms of "Number of Grand Slam Singles Championships Won." Nevertheless, it's highly unlikely - but not impossible - that all 3 of the Big 3 could retire with the exact same number, perhaps 20 or 21. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head! I had an ever-so-slight preference for Djokovic in yesterday's Wimbledon final; I'm going to be pulling hard for Federer in the U.S. Open. For those who consider "Number of Major Singles Titles" to be the benchmark in determining the GOAT: "Rafael Nadal's Decision To Miss Wimbledon, Olympics, Part of Larger Gambit To Prolong Career" by Steve Tignor on tennis.com I'm not one of these people, but it's impossible to deny that the Big 3 are surely the three-greatest men's singles players in history, on absolute terms. It's also becoming easier to see how Djokovic (19 Majors) will slide past both Federer (20) and Nadal (20) as the two elder statesmen are now skipping tournaments in order to prolong their careers. For awhile, it seemed like the reign of the Big 3 would never end, but it's ending - or, at least, it will end when Djokovic steps down, probably in a few years: Nole is going to find it very, very quiet at the top if he has 21+ Majors, and Federer and Nadal have both retired. Although it seems like "20+ Majors" is a number that may never be reached again, I suggest that it's since Pete Sampras when that statistic became important, and the Big 3 have divied up (currently) 59 Majors amongst themselves - sometime in the future, when there's one dominant player instead of three, it's easy to see someone getting 30. One thing that has always favored Djokovic that nobody ever mentions: Nadal is the King of Clay, Federer is the King of Grass, but 2 out of the 4 Grand Slams are on Djokovic's favorite surface, hard court.
Steve R. Posted June 18, 2021 Author Posted June 18, 2021 On 7/14/2019 at 8:08 PM, Steve R. said: Over 50 years of watching tennis & I have never seen a better match. As aFederer fan, it will take a while for me to get over him unsuccessfully serving at double match point - so damn close to winning another major - but all credit to Djokovic for hanging in there and breaking. They are both truly great players in every way. I just wish that I could like Djokovic more. But I don’t. Djokovic is really annoying me. I just don't want him to be this good. He actually seemed to wear Nadal down in the French semis (another of the greatest matches I've seen) and then came from 2 sets down to calmly win the finals. It would be nice for Federer to win Wimbledon and I wouldn't mind if Djokovic lost an early rounder. It would also be nice if I lost 50lbs overnight and grew a full head of hair. 1
DonRocks Posted June 19, 2021 Posted June 19, 2021 On 6/17/2021 at 11:13 PM, Steve R. said: Djokovic is really annoying me. I just don't want him to be this good. He actually seemed to wear Nadal down in the French semis (another of the greatest matches I've seen) and then came from 2 sets down to calmly win the finals. It would be nice for Federer to win Wimbledon and I wouldn't mind if Djokovic lost an early rounder. It would also be nice if I lost 50lbs overnight and grew a full head of hair. Timing has meant a lot also - Federer came first, then Nadal stymied Federer. Both men are now worn down - Federer mostly by age, and Nadal by his extreme style of playing. Djokovic is not only a bit younger, but also seems built for longevity with both his rivals now at the end of their careers. Why *not* Djokovic? I love all three of these guys, and am content for history to take me wherever it may lead. Again, I must emphasize the fact that 2 out of the 4 Grand Slams are on Djokovic's favorite surface. It's not impossible that the U.S. Open will have three 20-Grand Slam winners playing (and this doesn't even include Serena). I think it's so cool that I dined at Djokovic's (now-closed) restaurant in Monaco, Eqvita, almost surely conceived so he could fine-dine outside his doorstep with raw, vegan, gluten-free cuisine.
Keithstg Posted September 10, 2021 Posted September 10, 2021 This US Open has been interesting on a lot of levels, not least of which is that Djokovic is going to win and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Really bums me out. Solid showing by Francis and Reilly Opelka though, so some reason to hope for the future. Very distressing that Felix A-A is now coached by Uncle Tony. Not looking forward to seeing his beautiful, nuanced game changed and having to listen to him explain how he added 20 lbs of muscle a year from now...
DonRocks Posted September 11, 2021 Posted September 11, 2021 9 hours ago, Keithstg said: Djokovic is going to win and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Really bums me out. I honestly don’t understand why it bums you out.
Keithstg Posted September 11, 2021 Posted September 11, 2021 1 hour ago, DonRocks said: I honestly don’t understand why it bums you out. Because I’m not a fan? Pretty much as simple as that.
DonRocks Posted September 11, 2021 Posted September 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Keithstg said: Because I’m not a fan? Pretty much as simple as that. Fair enough! For the record, I’m a *huge* fan of Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic - pretty much equally. That said, you’ll *never* hear me say who’s the “greatest ever” based on the total number of majors (*). That’s a new “thing” that started with Sampras in the late 1990s. (*) Take away any one of the Big 3, and one of the other two would have 30 majors. It isn’t inconceivable that a single dominant player (think: Lance Armstrong) might have 40 before 2050.
Keithstg Posted September 12, 2021 Posted September 12, 2021 And then medvedev pulled through, in a match that will look easier over time than it actually was. The tennis equivalent of “it’s a line drive in the paper”, if you will. thank heavens.
Keithstg Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 On 9/11/2021 at 12:18 AM, DonRocks said: For the record, I’m a *huge* fan of Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic - pretty much equally. This still the case? Novak is, and has been, a bad guy. ETA: not specifically talking about his personal decision re: vaccination, but rather his actions after being infected for the second time, and near total disregard for Australian policy....combined with all the other nonsense over the past 24 months. 1
zgast Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 2 hours ago, Keithstg said: This still the case? Novak is, and has been, a bad guy. ETA: not specifically talking about his personal decision re: vaccination, but rather his actions after being infected for the second time, and near total disregard for Australian policy....combined with all the other nonsense over the past 24 months. Every time you think this story has reached its nadir of insanity, Djokovic hands over his beer one more time. 1
Steve R. Posted January 15, 2022 Author Posted January 15, 2022 10 hours ago, Keithstg said: This still the case? Novak is, and has been, a bad guy. ETA: not specifically talking about his personal decision re: vaccination, but rather his actions after being infected for the second time, and near total disregard for Australian policy....combined with all the other nonsense over the past 24 months. We live in tough times for "fandom". I really wish that I could separate his all too public craziness/personality from his ability to play great tennis, but I cant. I have the same wish vis a vis Michael Jackson's music, Mel Gibson's acting, Mario Batali's restaurants & Woody Allen's movies. On the one hand, I'm glad that we now see more than 2 dimensional characters but, on the other, I really wish I didn't see so much of the person behind the curtain. Oh well. 2
Tweaked Posted January 15, 2022 Posted January 15, 2022 If he hadn't posted on social media that he had received a medical exemption, would anyone have noticed? Perhaps questions would have eventually been asked since he has been outspoken about getting vaccinated. But it seems to me the bravado of that IG post is what led to the double fault (and yes I had to 😁)
Keithstg Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 9:14 PM, Tweaked said: If he hadn't posted on social media that he had received a medical exemption, would anyone have noticed? Perhaps questions would have eventually been asked since he has been outspoken about getting vaccinated. But it seems to me the bravado of that IG post is what led to the double fault (and yes I had to 😁) Agreed. Also peak Novak “I’m uncomfortable that all the attention has been focused on me” - while causing said attention. Would have been interesting to see the crowds reaction. 1
Tweaked Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 4 hours ago, Keithstg said: Agreed. Also peak Novak “I’m uncomfortable that all the attention has been focused on me” - while causing said attention. Would have been interesting to see the crowds reaction. Apparently there is a small but vocal Serbian ex-pat community in Melbourne who show up for all his matches. He would have had some support.
Keithstg Posted January 16, 2022 Posted January 16, 2022 36 minutes ago, Tweaked said: Apparently there is a small but vocal Serbian ex-pat community in Melbourne who show up for all his matches. He would have had some support. Of course, but the prospect of a tennis player, let alone the best in the world, being booed has been unthinkable over the last twenty odd years.
Steve R. Posted January 17, 2022 Author Posted January 17, 2022 Well, there was Medvedev, but he decided to leave the Dark Side. Hope his career goes better than Kylo Ren's did.
DonRocks Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 10:42 AM, Keithstg said: This still the case? Novak is, and has been, a bad guy. ETA: not specifically talking about his personal decision re: vaccination, but rather his actions after being infected for the second time, and near total disregard for Australian policy....combined with all the other nonsense over the past 24 months. On 1/14/2022 at 1:02 PM, zgast said: Every time you think this story has reached its nadir of insanity, Djokovic hands over his beer one more time. On 1/14/2022 at 8:59 PM, Steve R. said: We live in tough times for "fandom". I really wish that I could separate his all too public craziness/personality from his ability to play great tennis, but I cant. I have the same wish vis a vis Michael Jackson's music, Mel Gibson's acting, Mario Batali's restaurants & Woody Allen's movies. On the one hand, I'm glad that we now see more than 2 dimensional characters but, on the other, I really wish I didn't see so much of the person behind the curtain. Oh well. On 1/14/2022 at 9:14 PM, Tweaked said: If he hadn't posted on social media that he had received a medical exemption, would anyone have noticed? Perhaps questions would have eventually been asked since he has been outspoken about getting vaccinated. But it seems to me the bravado of that IG post is what led to the double fault (and yes I had to 😁) On 1/16/2022 at 8:18 AM, Keithstg said: Agreed. Also peak Novak “I’m uncomfortable that all the attention has been focused on me” - while causing said attention. Would have been interesting to see the crowds reaction. On 1/16/2022 at 12:49 PM, Tweaked said: Apparently there is a small but vocal Serbian ex-pat community in Melbourne who show up for all his matches. He would have had some support. On 1/16/2022 at 1:26 PM, Keithstg said: Of course, but the prospect of a tennis player, let alone the best in the world, being booed has been unthinkable over the last twenty odd years. On 1/17/2022 at 12:03 PM, Steve R. said: Well, there was Medvedev, but he decided to leave the Dark Side. Hope his career goes better than Kylo Ren's did. Is this the time where your humble moderator is supposed to chime in with something intelligent to say? I have nothing. Although I don't think Djokovic's recent actions should affect peoples' judgment about who is the GOAT, it just might in the short term (and let's not forget: Between the 2020 US Open (when he accidentally hit the ballgirl and got DQd), and the 2022 Australian Open (when his personal beliefs have infuriated a majority), this tennis genius we call the Djoker may have cost himself two Grand Slams, while potentially handing Nadal one. I'm personally not a big Grand Slam counter when it comes to determining the GOAT, and I'm also one of very few people that like Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic pretty much equally. But the court of public opinion is going to come down hard on Nole in the short term. and he's going to be feeling the heat (Djokovic cares very much what people think about him). Having lived through the vicissitudes of having a beloved spouse with cancer, I'm perfectly comfortable with uncertainty, not knowing anything definitive, and potentially never knowing, a GOAT when it comes to something as unimportant as tennis - I don't feel the need. Especially when you consider that Djokovic had both Federer and Nadal to build on (Nadal changed his game to have a chance against Federer on grass, and Djokovic changed his game to have a chance against Nadal on clay, as well as against Federer on grass - plus Nole is younger, and yes, it matters, although perhaps not for the reasons you think). Sampras, with his 14 Grand Slam titles at the turn of this century seemed unbeatable, BUT, that's when "Grand Slam Titles" started to become a "thing" in the determination of the GOAT; it never used to be anything more than a minor component before Sampras chased down Roy Emerson. Now, in 20 years, THREE people have demolished Sampras' record by almost 50% each! What are the odds of that happening again? Well, I'd say that, only because the cumulative Grand Slam titles just became a "thing" this century, the odds are almost overwhelming of it happening again. We've had a total number of four players that based their GOAT case on this peculiar statistic: Sampras, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. Fully 50% of the Grand Slams are on hard court, which is Djokovic's favorite surface; 25% are on clay (Nadal's favorite surface), and 25% are on grass (Federer's favorite surface). We've had three co-equal dominators this century, but what if, sometime in the next 20-30 years, there are only two, or even one? These three players have 60 Grand Slams between them. What's to prevent a smaller pool of dominant players from winning an even bigger share? Could 2 dominant players win 30 each? Could 1 dominant player - a Lance Armstrong type - win 40? If not, then why not? I think Djoker will probably emerge atop this three-man heap with the highest number of Grand Slams, but so what? It will last for ... 10 years? 20? Is that going to make him the GOAT? Or will that make him the GOAT in the eye of the hoi polloi for the next 20 years only? What if the strings and equipment take yet another quantum leap forward? Maybe the baseline game will become obsolete, or maybe it will become even more dominant. Don't think short; think long. There will probably be a satisfying answer within these three players in the next ten years, but it isn't going to mean much in the long term. These are heady times to be a tennis fan, so we might as well enjoy it. All of it. I sure do; there's no reason not to.
Steve R. Posted January 22, 2022 Author Posted January 22, 2022 7 hours ago, DonRocks said: Don't think short; think long. There will probably be a satisfying answer within these three players in the next ten years, but it isn't going to mean much in the long term. These are heady times to be a tennis fan, so we might as well enjoy it. All of it. I sure do; there's no reason not to. Not so much the "think long" part. As an almost 70 year old, I need to think (& plan) a little shorter than the 20 years it may take for this to ever come around again. The "enjoy it" part I got covered. 3
Keithstg Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 On 1/22/2022 at 3:41 AM, DonRocks said: (Djokovic cares very much what people think about him). Now, in 20 years, THREE people have demolished Sampras' record by almost 50% each! What are the odds of that happening again? Don't think short; think long. There will probably be a satisfying answer within these three players in the next ten years, but it isn't going to mean much in the long term. These are heady times to be a tennis fan, so we might as well enjoy it. All of it. I sure do; there's no reason not to. Djokovic's concern about his image is what makes all of this so interesting. He truly cares, but can't cross over. I won't say never to someone coming along and demolishing the big three records, but having three people come along at the same time with the skill, desire and long-term health (relatively speaking) to equal or surpass 20 grand slam titles will be a tall order. Definitely a great time to be a tennis fan.
NiceDocter Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Djokovic is the only guy ever out of a tournament after only missing 2 shots. Ba Da BUM! 1 1 3
Steve R. Posted August 21, 2023 Author Posted August 21, 2023 On 7/14/2019 at 8:08 PM, Steve R. said: Over 50 years of watching tennis & I have never seen a better match. As aFederer fan, it will take a while for me to get over him unsuccessfully serving at double match point - so damn close to winning another major - but all credit to Djokovic for hanging in there and breaking. They are both truly great players in every way. I just wish that I could like Djokovic more. But I don’t. Okay, let me update this. Today's final in Cincy between Alcaraz & Djokovic has now become my #1. Well, maybe it wasn't the "best" match (people have different definitions) but it was, to my eyes, the most talented twosome I've ever seen play the game & battle each other. I've still not decided that I can say that I like Djokovic (his COVID stance and actions didn't help). He's definitely sounding more likable to me as the years roll on, but I now have infinite respect for his ability.
Keithstg Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 12 hours ago, Steve R. said: Okay, let me update this. Today's final in Cincy between Alcaraz & Djokovic has now become my #1. Well, maybe it wasn't the "best" match (people have different definitions) but it was, to my eyes, the most talented twosome I've ever seen play the game & battle each other. I've still not decided that I can say that I like Djokovic (his COVID stance and actions didn't help). He's definitely sounding more likable to me as the years roll on, but I now have infinite respect for his ability. That match was riveting. Was never a Djokovic fan, though he has been persecuted enough for his COVID stance. Feel like barring injury the next 6-8 men's finals could be Alcaraz/ Djokovic.
DonRocks Posted August 22, 2023 Posted August 22, 2023 14 hours ago, Keithstg said: That match was riveting. Was never a Djokovic fan, though he has been persecuted enough for his COVID stance. Feel like barring injury the next 6-8 men's finals could be Alcaraz/ Djokovic. Before Sampras there was nobody except the relatively unknown Roy Emerson, and "Grand Slam Tournaments" weren't a thing of importance. Neither Borg, Connors, nor McEnroe cared about total number of "Grand Slam" tournaments. Federer stood on the back of Sampras. Nadal stood on the back of Federer. Djokovic stood on the back of Nadal. That's the way incremental greatness works. Now, "Grand Slam Tournaments" are the measuring stick of greatness, but only since the beginning of this millenium.
Keithstg Posted August 22, 2023 Posted August 22, 2023 9 hours ago, DonRocks said: Before Sampras there was nobody except the relatively unknown Roy Emerson, and "Grand Slam Tournaments" weren't a thing of importance. Neither Borg, Connors, nor McEnroe cared about total number of "Grand Slam" tournaments. Federer stood on the back of Sampras. Nadal stood on the back of Federer. Djokovic stood on the back of Nadal. That's the way incremental greatness works. Now, "Grand Slam Tournaments" are the measuring stick of greatness, but only since the beginning of this millenium. Agree with the second part, but regarding the first - the "Open Era" began in the late 60s and changed tennis completely and the Slams became even more important as travel became far easier. To think that Borg, Connors, or McEnroe didn't care about the number of Grand Slams they won seems silly. Grand Slams were ALWAYS more important than other tournaments. Do you think Arthur Ashe cared more about winning the US Open, the Perth Amboy Invitational, or the Caribe Hilton International?
Steve R. Posted August 22, 2023 Author Posted August 22, 2023 I think that I'm more in agreement than disagreement with the idea that Grand Slams define greatness in our current era. However, for me at least, that's an easier conclusion on the women's side. The fact that the men's Grand Slams are "best of 5 sets" significantly changes the game for me by rewarding some qualities (longer concentration, consistency, fitness) more than the other tournaments do and, therefore, creating the possibility of some folks winning more Grand Slams (& not "lower" tournaments, where the sprinters might excel). There's also my need to include, in the term greatness, the ability to win on all surfaces. So, for both the men and women, I'd want to see their Grand Slam titles reasonably distributed over hard, clay, red clay and grass surfaces. That being said, on the men's side, one would still be hard pressed to deny who the best players have been over the last 10-15 years. On the women's side, a no-brainer until you get to #2 🤔. btw: the US Open Quals started today. Couldn't get there, but will definitely prowl the grounds tomorrow and Friday. Then, tickets to 3 days next week when it officially begins. Anyone else?
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