Neapolitan Pizza

[darkstar965]

This makes me want to go there even more. And that's saying something because I've sort of tired of charcuterie plates.

2Amys is a local treasure for most reasons (except maybe service, which can be pretty indifferent at times). Every now and then, I do a benchmark visit to other spots but, with the possible exception of Orso, I think 2Amys is at the top of the local Neapolitan heap even after all these years.

[mdt]

2Amys is a local treasure for most reasons (except maybe service, which can be pretty indifferent at times). Every now and then, I do a benchmark visit to other spots but, with the possible exception of Orso, I think 2Amys is at the top of the local Neapolitan heap even after all these years.

Have to disagree, Pupatella is easily better and more consistent than 2Amys these days when talking about Neapolitan pizza.

[darkstar965]

Have to disagree, Pupatella is easily better and more consistent than 2Amys these days when talking about Neapolitan pizza.

Interesting! There's another thread better to discuss this but, not knowing where it is....can you elaborate a bit? I can't speak to Pupatella's consistency since I'm not there often enough. I do know the 2Amy's offerings well. On the merits, the Pupatella pie is sliced into quarters--though fine, that's not authentic. They did tell me they always do that. And, with a soupy middle typical of Neapolitan pizzas, that'd be very problematic and messy. But, the Pupatella pie doesn't have a middle much different from its perimeter so, with consistent texture and moisture throughout, it can be sliced as they do it. Is an excellent pie but those were the reasons why I gave 2Amys the nod on authenticity. Would love to get your view. Thanks!

[DonRocks]

2Amys is a local treasure for most reasons (except maybe service, which can be pretty indifferent at times). Every now and then, I do a benchmark visit to other spots but, with the possible exception of Orso, I think 2Amys is at the top of the local Neapolitan heap even after all these years.

Have to disagree, Pupatella is easily better and more consistent than 2Amys these days when talking about Neapolitan pizza.

darkstar, Choirgirl (use the Snapback Button on the top-right of Choirgirl's post to regain context!) was referring to Range, not 2Amys. Also, make sure to ask for your crust "well-done" at 2Amys. None other than Johnny Monis even recommends this (he loves 2Amys pizza, and he mentioned this when I last saw him there).

mdt, I agree *with the caveat* that Enzo is no longer manning the oven 100% of the time. Between the expansion, the offspring, and the doughnuts , Super Enzo finally gave in and is taking days off here and there. I think Pupatella's pizza is only 90% as good as it used to be (which is still pretty darned good).

There was mention of Neapolitan pizza on Tom Sietsema's chat today. So far, *everyone*, including Tom, has forgotten to mention this guy named Edan Macquaid making the pizzas at Range (although Tom is reviewing Range this coming Sunday, so he probably just didn't want to "scoop himself," as he sometimes says).

[darkstar965]

darkstar, Choirgirl (use the Snapback Button on the top-right of Choirgirl's post to regain context!) was referring to Range, not 2Amys. Also, make sure to ask for your crust "well-done" at 2Amys. None other than Johnny Monis even recommends this (he loves 2Amys pizza, and he mentioned this when I last saw him there).

mdt, I agree *with the caveat* that Enzo is no longer manning the oven 100% of the time. Between the expansion, the offspring, and the doughnuts , Super Enzo finally gave in and is taking days off here and there. I think Pupatella's pizza is only 90% as good as it used to be (which is still pretty darned good).

There was mention of Neapolitan pizza on Tom Sietsema's chat today. So far, *everyone*, including Tom, has forgotten to mention this guy named Edan Macquaid making the pizzas at Range (although Tom is reviewing Range this coming Sunday, so he probably just didn't want to "scoop himself," as he sometimes says).

Confused. There's no choirgirl post on this (new) thread to "snapback" from? I was replying to mdt. And are you (Don) saying you agree that Pupatella's is the more consistently Neapolitan pie over 2Amys? I'd think the slicing alone makes that near impossible by authentic standards?

[DonRocks]

Confused. There's no choirgirl post on this (new) thread to "snapback" from? I was replying to mdt. And are you (Don) saying you agree that Pupatella's is the more consistently Neapolitan pie over 2Amys? I'd think the slicing alone makes that near impossible by authentic standards?

Go to the topmost quoted post in the thread (Choirgirl's) - your first post was a reply to her. The great thing about the Snapback Function is that it cuts across threads. That's why there's always a backwards audit trail when I split off posts - it's a wonderful feature.

Yes, I've thought Pupatella had superior pizza to 2Amys from the day it first opened (but I still like 2Amys very much and would consider it the better restaurant).

[darkstar965]

Go to the topmost quoted post in the thread (Choirgirl's) - your first post was a reply to her. The great thing about the Snapback Function is that it cuts across threads. That's why there's always a backwards audit trail when I split off posts - it's a wonderful feature.

Yes, I've thought Pupatella had superior pizza to 2Amys from the day it first opened (but I still like 2Amys very much and would consider it the better restaurant).

Ah, gotcha on snapback. That is a cool feature.

If okay, would LOVE for you, MDT or anyone to make the case for Pupatella's pie being more authentic (versus "better," though that'd be interesting too) than 2Amys if you're willing. I'm surprised by that view but thinking I might learn something here. Thank you.

[DonRocks]

Ah, gotcha on snapback. That is a cool feature.

If okay, would LOVE for you, MDT or anyone to make the case for Pupatella's pie being more authentic (versus "better," though that'd be interesting too) than 2Amys if you're willing. I'm surprised by that view but thinking I might learn something here. Thank you.

I think Edan would be the one to answer this intelligently. I don't have enough expertise or specific knowledge of either restaurant to say one is more "authentic" than the other.

[darkstar965]

I think Edan would be the one to answer this intelligently. I don't have enough expertise or specific knowledge of either restaurant to say one is more "authentic" than the other.

I see. So when you write that you think P is "superior" you just mean that you like it better? Again there, and only if okay obviously, I'd be really interested to know why. Authenticity aside, you must have reasons why you personally prefer one over the other. Totally fine and, as I wrote, I like both. But I tried to explain why, for me, the 2Amy's pie is both preferred and, I think, more authentic.

[thetrain]

On the merits, the Pupatella pie is sliced into quarters--though fine, that's not authentic. They did tell me they always do that.

FWIW I've asked them not to slice it in the recent past and they've complied. If I remember correctly, they didn't slice it at first, people complained often enough that the default switched to slicing it. I know they've gone back and forth on cutting the pizza's at Orso too for the same reason and I usually specify there I'd like my pizza uncut.

[darkstar965]

FWIW I've asked them not to slice it in the recent past and they've complied. If I remember correctly, they didn't slice it at first, people complained often enough that the default switched to slicing it. I know they've gone back and forth on cutting the pizza's at Orso too for the same reason and I usually specify there I'd like my pizza uncut.

Not surprising. They do seem very nice and accommodating. But, the slicing is just symptomatic of a key attribute which, I think, gives 2Amys the edge on authenticity (will be interesting to hear what Edan says if he weighs in) and, at least for me, preferred more generally. If you pre-sliced a 2Amys pie, it wouldn't really work because the center is a wetter, soupier middle than the one at Pupatella. This is what I remember from Naples, having had a few pies there. The idea being that you either eat the pie with knife and fork or roll it up to capture than middle part. The Pupatella pie doesn't at all have that kind of center; it's a consistent and drier consistency throughout the pie.

Just because I have an interest in this, I'm hoping to hear why some (like Don) prefer the Pupatella pie just in their own words and irrespective of authenticity since they assert that they do (though using a word like "superior" sounds more objective than just about personal preference). And, separately, hope to hear from an expert (like Edan) on the authenticity question.

[DonRocks]

Just because I have an interest in this, I'm hoping to hear why some (like Don) prefer the Pupatella pie just in their own words and irrespective of authenticity since they assert that they do (though using a word like "superior" sounds more objective than just about personal preference). And, separately, hope to hear from an expert (like Edan) on the authenticity question.

I have to go get Matt, but what makes Pupatella superior to 2Amys to me is the crust, both in it's uncooked state as dough, and also cooked, with the near-perfect char that Enzo manages to obtain. Toppings-wise, I may have to go with 2Amys (they have such a high volume of business that it's easier for them to procure outstanding toppings).

I also think Edan stands alone among area pizzaiolos, and he will be famous one day.

[darkstar965]

Interesting. The Pupatella pie does have a more evenly distributed yet marked char. Perhaps oddly, that's less "perfect" to me because I think it's less consistent than the "standard" (though could be horribly wrong). To me, the less evenly distributed, less predictable char with bigger popped bubbles from baking are more interesting, I think more authentic and, most of all for me, preferred.

This may help a bit on the authenticity question separate from personal preferences. Associazione Verace Pizza napoletana, AVPN is the nearly 30-year-old, Naples-based non profit dedicated to "promote and protect in Italy and worldwide the “true Neapolitan pizza“ ". If you click on "international regulations" to the right of the page, it'll launch a pdf that I think makes clear the difference between the two pies we're discussing and gives a definite edge to 2Amys on authenticity. Key excerpt from there as follows:

The end product of the “Verace Pizza Napoletana” - (Vera Pizza Napoletana) should be as follows:

The consistency of the " Verace Pizza Napoletana " - (Vera Pizza Napoletana) should be soft, elastic, easy to manipulate and fold. The centre should be particularly soft to the touch and taste, where the red of the tomato is evident, and to which the oil or for the ‘Pizza Marinara, the green of the oregano and the white of the garlic has perfectly amalgamated; In the case of the Pizza Margherita, the white of the mozzarella should appear in evenly spread patches, with the green of the basil leaves, slightly darkened by the cooking process.

Less helpfully, both Pupatella and 2Amys are members of AVPN but that can likely be explained by this other bit from the regs:

The association reserves the right to accept variations of the product and recognise their authenticity if they are informed by the Neapolitan tradition of pizzas and are not in contrast with the rules of gastronomy, with judgment reserved to the Association's committee as stipulated in the first “disciplinare” of the “Verace Pizza Napoletana” - (Vera Pizza Napoletana) Association on 14 June 1984.

I'd imagine the Pupatella pie, as delicious as it is, is more a "variation of the product....informed by the Neapolitan tradition" whereas the 2Amys pie may exemplify the tradition more closely.

I also have a TON of respect for Edan. Whether he is truly "alone" at the top of the pyramid for the region I'm not sure but doesn't matter. He rocks and will be interesting and educational to read what he has to say.

[Jonathan]

The doughnuts at Pupatella are not made by Enzo and never have been. They are made (along with the other bread and pastries) by Chris Deutsch (aka Hot! Hot! Bakery).

Chris was a civilian with a real job for many years, but started baking when living in France a few years ago. His stuff is very good and will be sold wholesale soon.

[Jonathan]

And for what it's worth, my pizza (which can be seen in the avatar), while not Neapolitan, will hopefully give the areas best a run for its money in the coming months. I look forward to all of your opinions and feedback.

[darkstar965]

The doughnuts at Pupatella are not made by Enzo and never have been. They are made (along with the other bread and pastries) by Chris Deutsch (aka Hot! Hot! Bakery).

Chris was a civilian with a real job for many years, but started baking when living in France a few years ago. His stuff is very good and will be sold wholesale soon.

Cool avatar, Jonathan. I'm curious. The photo in your avatar doesn't look a pie from around these parts. Would I be right guessing it's a photo that was taken in Naples?

Edited: our posts crossed. Even cooler. Your own pie. Looks great. When do you open? And what about yours makes it "not Neapolitan?" Looks Neapolitan. Coverage from Eater here.

[pizza man]

2a's pizza is not authentic Neapolitan, so far from it in fact, that it calls into question the credibility of AVPN America.. Not to say that it is a bad pizza, (although I do think there are better to be had in the area). The rest of 2a's food is fantastic and the quality of the products they use cannot be called into question. What's more Italian than using good ingredients?

I do not know enough about Ptella to say for sure how strictly they adhere to the Disciplinaire, but I have been there. The oven is awesome, and the mixer is one of the 3 approved varieties. I've had better pizza in the area, but it resembles what I've eaten in Naples more than at 2A

Having said all that, I believe that the Disciplinaire is not the end all method to making a good pizza. Taste, smell, texture, digestibility, and appearance are the qualifiers in my mind.

and that's all I have to say about that.

Don,

Thanks fer putting it out there!

[darkstar965]

Thanks Edan...and Jonathan.

Have to say, re-reading this thread, I'm totally unclear on how to define and thus identify "authentic" Neapolitan pizza if the AVPN regs aren't reliable either. Is there a standard written down anywhere? Can one assume that the pies served in most (or some) pizzerias in Naples are authentic? I have no idea why 2Amys wouldn't be close but of course take you (Edan) at your word that it isn't.

Of course, personal preference trumps all. If you like it, that's what matters. But for those, like me, who love learning about what defines "real," this is a fascinating but difficult puzzle to piece together.

[Jonathan]

Cool avatar, Jonathan. I'm curious. The photo in your avatar doesn't look a pie from around these parts. Would I be right guessing it's a photo that was taken in Naples?

Edited: our posts crossed. Even cooler. Your own pie. Looks great. When do you open? And what about yours makes it "not Neapolitan?" Looks Neapolitan. Coverage from Eater here.

My pizza is baked at a lower temperature than Neapolitan (675 degrees vs. 950 degrees) and so it cooks longer (roughly 3 and a half minutes). The dough doesn't use 100% caputo 00 flour and the pies are a bit thicker (a wee bit). They are what would be considered a NY-Neapolitan hybrid pie in the dorky world of pizza fanatics. More similar to what the classic coal oven places of New York City were making back in the very early 1900s. Still using great ingredients and a wood-burning oven though.

Should be open by mid April.

[darkstar965]

My pizza is baked at a lower temperature than Neapolitan (675 degrees vs. 950 degrees) and so it cooks longer (roughly 3 and a half minutes). The dough doesn't use 100% caputo 00 flour and the pies are a bit thicker (a wee bit). They are what would be considered a NY-Neapolitan hybrid pie in the dorky world of pizza fanatics. More similar to what the classic coal oven places of New York City were making back in the very early 1900s. Still using great ingredients and a wood-burning oven though.

Should be open by mid April.

Really interesting. Safe to say your version reflects what you think the market more demands? And, inasumch as ingredients are one key part of the authenticity equation (though now I'm unsure given Edan's post about 2Amys), will you be using buffalo mozzarella, san marzano tomatoes? Whatever the answers to those queries, will be looking forward to your opening!

[Jonathan]

I will be using an uncooked sauce of crushed san marzano (or other, depending on a taste test I'm doing this week) tomatoes. Mozzarella di Bufala on some pies, fiore di latte on others. There might even be a bit of a dusting of low-moisture mozzarella for coverage.

[pizza man]

The Disciplinaire is readily available to download. It does allow some leeway in method of production, but is very precise in it's definition. Down to pH levels in fact. Napolitan pizza is a real, defined product.

The question is; how much leeway is allowed and which restaurant is following the Disciplinaire? Their are real monetary dues paid for AVPN certification, and classes can be purchased as well..

Incidentally, one of the most popular famous pizzeria in Naples, Pizzeria Da Michele, is not certified by VPN. Da Michele has been in the same location for over 100 years, and is one of the original Napolitan Pizzerie.

I don't think the Napolitans know for sure, or care as much as you might think..

The best pizze I have ever had were in Naples. The worst pizze I had in Naples were easily topped by some pizza I've had in the US..

Jonathan,

congratulations!

[Jonathan]

But Darkstar, I'd say my version more reflects what I like more than the market. I've cooked Neapolitan at Franny's in Brooklyn and I've cooked a different style at Palena. This is my opportunity to cook the type of pizza I have been craving to make for many years.

In terms of the actual cooking process, nothing is more fun than cooking Neapolitan pizza though. The speed and heat and the need to work with an imperfect thing like a wood-burning oven is such an amazing challenge and experience. It can make for a memorable Saturday night.

[DonRocks]

Thanks Edan...and Jonathan.

Have to say, re-reading this thread, I'm totally unclear on how to define and thus identify "authentic" Neapolitan pizza if the AVPN regs aren't reliable either. Is there a standard written down anywhere? Can one assume that the pies served in most (or some) pizzerias in Naples are authentic? I have no idea why 2Amys wouldn't be close but of course take you (Edan) at your word that it isn't.

Of course, personal preference trumps all. If you like it, that's what matters. But for those, like me, who love learning about what defines "real," this is a fascinating but difficult puzzle to piece together.

The Pizzamaking Forum should keep you busy for awhile as you piece together your puzzle.

I must caution you, however, that the level of geekdom in that forum makes us look like amateurs - there are 23,000 posts *just* on Neapolitan Pizza.

And I *know* it's burning a hole in Edan's stomach that I titled this thread "Neapolitan" instead of "Napolitan."

[Jonathan]

The Pizzamaking Forum should keep you busy for awhile as you piece together your puzzle.

I must caution you, however, that the level of geekdom in that forum makes us look like amateurs - there are 23,000 posts *just* on Neapolitan Pizza.

I'm a member already. And have been for a while. The level of geekdom and knowledge of pizza is very impressive.

[darkstar965]

The Pizzamaking Forum should keep you busy for awhile as you piece together your puzzle.

I must caution you, however, that the level of geekdom in that forum makes us look like amateurs - there are 23,000 posts *just* on Neapolitan Pizza.

Maybe. The first thing I always check with any source is who's behind it. In this case, very cool and comprehensive site run by this guy. He has been baking pizzas (in Chicago) for a long time; upwards of 40 years. But he's American. Clearly someone to be respected and someone who has a ton of expertise to share. But maybe not "The Authority" as much as there may even be one.

I think the "disciplinaire" I linked to upthread (I called them the "regulations" but they're titled both ways the two languages) is the same "easily downladed" doc that Edan referenced. Reading that, still a bit of a mystery to me why 2Amys is so far off the mark. Must have to do more with the chemistry (ph levels, etc.) than the ingredients or characteristics of the finished pie.

[pizza man]

Many of those "geeks" have gone on to open Pizzerie in the past few years..Cane Rosso, Paulie Gee's, Varasano's , etc.. etc..

of the ones I've had, none have been exceptional, or better than some of the local spots.

[pizza man]

Peter Taylor in Tampa, Fl. , However, is making an amazing hybrid wood fired pie at his pizzeria -Wood Fired

I must correct myself.

[Jonathan]

Paulie Gee is apparently opening up a place in Baltimore in the very near future.

The best pies I've seen on that site are by a home cook with an amazing oven in his garage in Texas.

And thanks, Edan. We are all excited to open and start cooking.

[darkstar965]

...

And I *know* it's burning a hole in Edan's stomach that I titled this thread "Neapolitan" instead of "Napolitan."

Both AVPN and your 'dough doctor' website with the zillion posts label it "Neapolitan." So whatsa problem?!

This kind of reminds me of the bagel wars already waged in other threads. But there, it seemed easier to define that there were two standards (based on historical precedent) with definite criteria and then assess local bagels against that whether NY/Water or Montreal. Again brings me back to less visible (and maybe less perceptible by taste unless truly expert) chemistry since AVPN (whether or not credible) does define the science behind the standard much more than I've ever seen done for a bagel, which I know more about.

[mdt]

Ah, gotcha on snapback. That is a cool feature.

If okay, would LOVE for you, MDT or anyone to make the case for Pupatella's pie being more authentic (versus "better," though that'd be interesting too) than 2Amys if you're willing. I'm surprised by that view but thinking I might learn something here. Thank you.

I was just responding to your comment that you thought 2Amys was the top with regard to Neapolitan pizza. I was just commenting on better since I did not realize that you were just talking about authenticity. Personally I couldn't care less if it's more/less authentic, I rather have a pie that tastes better. If I want authentic I will go back to Napoli.

[MMM]

In a discussion of Neapolitan pizza, I have to bring up Pizza CS ( Napoletana, come sempre). Can't compare them directly to 2 Amys (got annoyed with them a few years ago and haven't gone back) or Pupatella (which I had only once, at their cart), but the CS crust is made following the VPN rules and their pizzas taste like da Michele's to me. Am looking forward to trying pizza at Range soon.

[darkstar965]

I was just responding to your comment that you thought 2Amys was the top with regard to Neapolitan pizza. I was just commenting on better since I did not realize that you were just talking about authenticity. Personally I couldn't care less if it's more/less authentic, I rather have a pie that tastes better. If I want authentic I will go back to Napoli.

Have been talking about both through the thread. Personally (and likely just a function of my own genetic defect), I'm interested to know not just what defines "authentic" but why people prefer whichever local pie they do. I think I prefer 2Amys because I thought (seeming wrongly) that it hewed more to the standard for which I've developed a pref since experiencing great pies in Naples. But fully realize and respect that, for many or most people, authenticity and personal pref are two totally different things. And, in any case, the latter always matters more than the former whatever ones interest.

And, MMM, where on the below? Link maybe? molte grazie

In a discussion of Neapolitan pizza, I have to bring up Pizza CS ( Napoletana, come sempre).

[MMM]

And, MMM, where on the below? Link maybe? molte grazie

I've never figured out doing links, but here's a try - pizzacs.com/

[pizza man]

And I *know* it's burning a hole in Edan's stomach that I titled this thread "Neapolitan" instead of "Napolitan."

Napoletana!

[Chris Cunningham]

2 Amy's pizza is either perfect or a soggy mess... Never in between, so at least consistent between the two. And the lighting is always so bright , it's like eating in a bathroom. But the children do rule the roost

[Kev29]

I've never figured out doing links, but here's a try - pizzacs.com/

This - http://pizzacs.com/

And, of course, this - http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/16990-pizza-cs-rockville-near-twinbrook-metro/

[Will Artley]

I just want to say thank you for being mentioned in this group. Neapolitan pizza has its guidelines but one of its best attributes is that its truly the fruit of interpretation and creativity .....I've personally trained with the VPN and I adapted the philosophy that there isn't a master or inventor....just your Interpretation. I've learned to admire and appreciate others expression and not compare myself, We don't have the same wood!...we dont have the same oven!....we dont have the same yeast/sour!...we dont have the same facilities!....we do have one thing in common ...the love for pizza....just my humility talking.....Once again thank you guys for being included in such a great group! cheers y'all!

Will

[AnkurCS]

I'd have to agree with both Will and Edan on their points above and am also extremely flattered to have Pizza CS mentioned in this thread!

While I've trained with the VPN as well, I would not say that they are the definitive word on pizza napoletana. Now, that's not to say that they weren't incredibly helpful to me personally. Because of them, I was able to meet and learn from some incredible pizzaioli - who taught me the most important ingredients are your own passion and respect for the traditions of pizza napoletana: specific sourcing of ingredients, making and handling the dough with care, cooking at at the proper temperature, and always going by your own feel and taste throughout the process.

Many of my favorite Neapolitan pizzerias here in the US are not VPN and they slice their pies, but I'd be hard pressed to find faults in their renditions.

Best,

Ankur

[pizza man]

oops trying to add a photo

[DonRocks]

oops trying to add a photo

read the FAQ about how to write your first post! it's all there, step-by-step. PITA, I know, but doable.

[pizza man]

still haven't read the FAQ.. However, here is a quote from Pizzeria Salvo

piuttosto che discernere su chi è bravo e chi no, su chi ha ragione e chi no, non si può far nulla in maniera sistemica affinché, come dice il buon Manuel Lombardi Le Campestre, i giovani avventori di oggi, clienti di domani, la smettano una volta e per tutte di chiedere "robaccia" tipo wurstel e patatine fritte? non si può far nulla tutti assieme per educare tutti al mangiare sano, affinché tutti, ma proprio tutti, sappiano finalmente distinguere autonomamente una pizza di qualità da una scadente?

rather than discerning about who's good and who's not, about who is right and who does not, you can not do anything systemic in that, as the good Manuel Lombardi The Campestre, the young people of today, customers of tomorrow, stop once and for all to ask "crap" type sausages and fries? You can't do anything together to educate everyone to eat healthy, so that everyone, but everyone can finally distinguish themselves a pizza from a shoddy quality? (Translated by Bing)

[ol_ironstomach]

Culture is more usefully defined, I think, by how a community does a thing individually (and over time), than by how one thing is done collectively. The latter path is frequently and repeatedly subject to foolish pitfalls of ego, politics, and failure to see beyond a particular moment in time in a particular place, often of no lasting significance.

Blogger and foodie par excellence Vaughn Tan recently quoted a 2011 piece by WSJ's Lennox Morrison that seems apropos of this conversation:

Now, he says, "Dominique Saibron is one of the best three or four bakeries in France, but there are so many different factors involved in baking bread. It's different each time." ... When asked to sample one of Dominique Saibron's baguettes, Professor Kaplan turns somber. "I worry about tasting because I want it to be good and on many occasions, it's disappointing."

lennox morrison, "the best baguette in paris"