The Wine Library, Springfield, NJ

[Joe H]

Over the past few years I have bought a lot of wine over the internet without ever having been to most of the stores that I have bought from. Over time and curious, I have tried to visit some of the stores which have consistently offered me low prices for wine, lower than what I can find here, even with shipping factored in. On Friday, driving back from New York, I detoured to Springfield, NJ, about 25 miles south of Manhattan. I have been buying from the Wine Library, over the internet, for the last year. I had to go there. It seemed that across the board they were 20, 25, 30% cheaper than anyone else for wine. I should also note this is for wine that is hard to find or difficult to find at a competitive price. IThe Wine Library is the largest store I have ever been in. I have been in probably every significant wine/liquor store in America from Applejack's in Denver to Zachy's to the New Hampshire state stores to State Line in Elkton, to Verona, Milan and Alessi in Florence, etc. For years when travelling I would stop in wine shops if I had time. I've been in a LOT of wine shops.

The Wine Library is about 50,000 square feet or more on three floors. It is also new, having moved to their new building in the past year. It is beautiful! The main floor is three stories high wth balconies surrounding it. The wraparound balconies have wine racks in the style of bookcases you would find in a library. There is a temperature controlled room that is about 3,000 square feet. The greatest collection of large bottles I have ever seen. An incredible selection-fifty or more barolos, 100+ Spanish reds, 50+ South African, etc.

Everything in the store is around 20-30% off!

Take a look at their internet operation. www.winelibrary.com I have consistently found that if they ship on Monday I will receive it on Weds. The internet prices are the SAME prices as the ones in the store. (I had assumed they would be more expensive; I was wrong.) They have seven cash registers and all seven were open with a line when I was there. An incredible selection. Chilean, South African, Australian, Italian-simply as wide and deep of a selection as I have ever seen in a store anywhere. All at a remarkable discount.

For all the I've loved about Calvert Woodley, MacArthur, Schindler's, State Line and others in the past this just blows them away. Anyway travelling north or south on the Jersey Turnpike who is into wine should give this place a ten minute detour.

I spent two hours in there. I'll go back again.

And, no, I have no relatiohip or financial arrangement with them. I am just indebted to them. Literally.

[jparrott]

Only if you like wines with points. At least that's how the old store was.

Edited January 15, 2006 by jparrott

[Joe H]

This is a real plus of their's: almost every wine had a rating from Parker, the Wine Spectator, Decanter or another source. Rather than just a plain bottle on a shelf there was some information about it. Yes, the information could have been biased, fractured, wrong, misleading, etc. But still there was information. Yes, I'm guilty of buying based on some of Parker's and the WS and others' recommendations. The 93 point Umbrian Montiano which retails for as much as $60 was $29.99. I bought three bottles. The 94 point Cims De Porerra which sells for $80 at Zachy's was $35.99. The 95 point Mas Doix (another outstanding Spanish red) was $31.99, not $45 as offered elsewhere. Perhaps the one that really stood out was 2001 Torre Muga, 95 points from Parker and a great Spanish wine for $49.99-not $65 or more if it could be found.

Did I mention 2003 Altos de Luzon for $12.99? 93 points from Parker. Yes, I agree, it's not a 93 point wine. Probably 90. But worth every penny of the $12.99 or even the $18 which is what area stores sell it for.

Or did I mention the 2003 Henry's Drive Reserve Shiraz that I stupidly paid $89.99 for at the Wine Cabinet in Reston? I am looking at the receipt as I type this: $39.99 at the Wine Library yesterday. That's FIFTY DOLLARS MORE AT THE RESTON STORE!!!! Or the $49.99 I paid for the 2002 '93 point Clio at the Wine Cabinet which was $31.99 at the Wine Library in New Jersey? $18 more at the Reston store. For the four six bottle cases I bought from the Wine Library that's a difference of $432 minus the $50 for shipping. Still four hundred dollars!

More realistic prices on either of these might have caused me to ask them if they would match or even come close to the internet price. But paying double (more than double for the Henry's Drive!) or significantly more has caused them to lose a customer: me. If the Wine Library is poison to area stores then so be it. But I spend a lot of money on wine and I am going to buy it for the best price I can. When I am ripped off I will and do go elsewhere. When I find a source for extremely competitive pricing with an incredible selection I will tell everyone I can.

Some wines I buy on recommendation, some from employees whose opinions I trust (i.e. Pepe at Calvert Woodley). But over time I've found that Parker and the Wine Spectator are as good of an index as any to buy a bottle and see what I think of it. If I like it then I'll buy a case.

For this I am indebted to the Wine Library. They are the best I have found. I should also note that I believe this is the highest volume "internet" store in America. Someone has the system down. Perhaps local stores could benefit from this.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Joe H

[jparrott]

Nice to know some things haven't changed.

[Joe Riley]

This is a real plus of their's: almost every wine had a rating from Parker, the Wine Spectator, Decanter or another source. Rather than just a plain bottle on a shelf there was some information about it. Yes, the information could have been biased, fractured, wrong, misleading, etc. But still there was information.

**Bangs head against nearest wall...**

Please tell me that they have an educated staff that is willing to tell you what they REALLY think, and don't engage in "groupthink"?

I had a salesperson (actually, a rep from one of California's largest, most heavily-marketed wineries) this past week who rattled off their wines "scores" like chapter and verse to us.

I wanted to scream.

If those scores are so wonderful then why even bother to try us on the damned things? Don't the almighty SCORES speak for themselves? Why didn't we fall to our knees and genuflect in the direction of Monkton, MD? ARGH!

That posted information on the shelves of that store could have been prepared by anyone. Did you know who prepared it? Was it a marketing company? Was it the head wine buyer? Or was it boilerplate from a publication?

Maybe this is why their prices are so low. They don't have a wine staff, they have clerks who cut and paste magazine doggrel. Ask any one of these people about a particular wine and their eyes will glaze over and you'll get a blank stare, or they'll go wide with fear and anxiety.

It's a trade-off, I'll grant you that: low prices and zero expertise vs. a service-oriented business who remembers your name, preferences and earns your loyalty and trust.

Sorry for the late-night rant. The Redskins lost and I'm cranky.

[jparrott]

Naw, Joe R., your musings reflect the six or seven times I've shopping at the Wine Library. It's pretty much a pile of points, with a few DIs or pseudo-DIs thrown in (with "ratings" from the store) to bump up the margins. It's Carolina Wine Company with less Burgundy/Austria and more graphics in the points-chasing e-mails.

For real depth and breadth of selection and staff knowledge, it's hard to beat Astor Wines in New York City (best Loire, Germany, Austria, Rioja selections I've seen anywhere and very good spirits), Chambers Street Wines in NYC (smaller store, but not a bottle is there without a damn good reason, including spirits), WineSellar just north of San Diego (no Burgundy to speak of, just because California is doofy like that; the store doesn't match my palate but it's got a metric buttload of gems and the prices are fair; no spirits), Wine Exchange in Orange County (yes they push the points as much as anyone, but their champagnes, burgundies, bordeaux and spirits are top-notch) and J&B in London (probably my favorite shopping experience).

[Joe H]

I acknowledged in my post that there are stores that I've been to where I've found the taste of a particular sales person to be similar to mine; in short I trust him or her. I used Pepe as an example. At the Wine Library approximately 2/3 of all their wine had printed cards with ratings and descriptions of the wine from the source, i.e. Parker, WS, even Gary ?, the owner. (No clippings-consistent appearance in the presentation of the various sources.) But what is the difference between this and a salesperson's opinion? Essentially they are taking the place of a salesperson and this is a problem-they are eliminating the need to pay for this kind of overhead. They provide the ratings in place of them. I believe this is the highest volume internet operation in the industry. ALL of that is done without a salesperson. What is important to me is that I've bought from them a dozen or more times over the past year and every time the wine arrived in perfect condition within 48 hours of placing the order (i.e. Monday to Weds.). Having said this have either of you been to their new store which opened within the past year? I understand their old store was much, much smaller. They had a lot of staff in the new one. The several that I talked to seemed very knowledgeable. This is NOT a Total kind of operation. In fact there were at least two on their staff who seemed to be in their 60's or '70's and worked there to suppliment their retirement. Both were enthusiasts and very knowledgeable. They both also liked to talk wine. Each had several "specialties." One seemed to know as much about Spanish wine as Pepe does at Calvert Woodley. He had lived in Spain and been to many of the wineries in different regions of the country.

But coming back to Parker et al. I buy "new" wine for a lot of reasons. He/they are only one just as the recommendation of, say, Pepe at Calvert Woodley is only one. I buy a case about every two months which will have 12 bottles that I have not tried before. Probably half of the 12 bottles will be my surveying ratings, three will be a salesman's recommendations and three will be a friend's recommendation, something I read, or a "feeling." I've also found that often the later reasons tend to confirm the first. Based on my sampling of the mixed case I'll buy another 5 or more cases over the two month period. (I have about 750 bottles with about two thirds stored @55 degrees.) For these five cases it is ONLY about price-I am going to go where I can find the best I can. If a salesperson introduced a wine to me that I liked I am willing to pay 5 or even 10% more than the best price because I believe it was his "idea" or opinion and he should be rewarded with that part of my business. But, using the examples I offered in my second post, if it is going to cost me significantly more then I will not buy from him. I will give him the chance to match or come close to a price; if he can't I won't buy it.

I found a wine in a store in Atlanta that they described as "best red under $25." Sierra Cantabria Cuvee Especial 2001. It also noted 91 points from Parker. The combination of the two and a selling price of $18.99 caused me to buy two bottles. When I returned to Reston I opened it and loved it. A GREAT wine for the price. I like the Wine Cabinet here. I called them and asked if they could get it. Yes-for $27.99 with a 10% case discount. I went into WineZap and found, as usual, that the Wine Library (who I trust to ship me wine) was the lowest price at $16.99. With two dollars a bottle for shipping that was $18.99. X three cases = $683.64 plus tax. The Wine Cabinet was $916.92. A difference of $233.28.

For that difference I could have bought FOUR CASES AT THE WINE LIBRARY FOR THE PRICE OF THREE CASES AT THE LOCAL WINE CABINET. I bought the wine from New Jersey.

Have either of you been in their NEW store? It is remarkable-it blew me away. The selection is unreal, the ambience especially upstairs was similar to what I've found in stores in Europe. They have the largest collection of large bottles I've seen on display anywhere. Warehouse operations like Orange County's Wine Club have done extremely well with their narrow margins. But it IS a warehouse. This was not. The complete opposite. The Wine Club has some very knowledgeable salespeople. But so does the Wine Library.

But I understand where you are both coming from: the Wine Library (and the Wine Club) do not place EMPHASIS on the kind of style and opinion found in stores like your own. For those reading this, again, I am NOT talking about a Total kind of operation. I am talking about a store which probably attracts those who are more serious about wine, those who are already more knowledgeable when they walk in. Price caused me to go there but, now, knowing what it is like, it is selection, ambience, size, style, the helpfulness and courtesy of their employees. I found everything there that I've found at MacArthur, Schneider's and others. And much, much more with everything on sale for at least 20% off.

The Wine Library (and OC's the Wine Club) do not target the casual buyer although I am certain they get plenty of them. They're going after someone like myself who is fairly sophisticated and buys a lot. Frankly, if I lived on the West Coast I would probably buy most of my wine from the Wine Club or a similar operation. Here, on the East Coast, I feel more comfortable buying from a store that is three hours away. Given the population density within a 200 mile ring of Springfield, NJ the Wine Library is only going to get larger.

I also understand that a primary problem with ratings is that there is an awful lot of good wine that doesn't score very high with a particular person. Because of the emphasis on ratings it gives Parker and the WS and others a disproportionate amount of power. Much like stars and points do with Sietsema, Michelin and Gault Millau. Or a list in a publication where many worthy restaurants are not included in the 100 best. For wine this is the value of tastings, promotions, wine festivals like the one D. C. did for four or five years at the Convention center or Reagan building. This is also the value of a distributor in getting the wine out there and promoting it. For all of this discussion about ratings I go to these wine events and will taste more than 100 wines looking for new bottles. Just as restaurants go to them, looking also.

But when I leave the convention center and intend to buy a case, guess where I am going to buy it: the store which has the best price.

[RaisaB]

Jake and Joe Riley,

I agree with JoeH on this. When you are going for price, I would rather shop on the internet and save some money. I don't care whom they have working at the store. I appreciate their ratings on their website. If I am trying new things I am not familiar with, it is great to know that you like a certain persons style and ratings. Ex: I love Parkers' bold in your face taste, I still haven't found too much of Tanzer I like.

There is another thread here in which we also discussed this. I still patronize my local wineshop (quite a bit), but it saves alot of time and travel not having to go into town from shop to shop to get the variety this and other websites offer

[DonRocks]

Ex: I love Parkers' bold in your face taste, I still haven't found too much of Tanzer I like.

I hate Tanzer because he doesn't have the point scores lined up in a column for quick scanning.

[jparrott]

At the Wine Library approximately 2/3 of all their wine had printed cards with ratings and descriptions of the wine from the source, i.e. Parker, WS, even Gary ?, the owner. (No clippings-consistent appearance in the presentation of the various sources.)

It's Google wine sales. You ask a question, the sales guy appears interested, then ushers you to your top Google result. Those guys are really good at mental Google.

[jparrott]

BTW, how is the spirits selection?

[Joe H]

Honestly, I didn't even look. Part of the store has a gourmet section which they were still stocking although the vast majority of floor area was wine and this was finished. I'm guessing there's an enormous storage area also given the size of the building.

[jparrott]

So how can you say it's the best liquor store in America?

[zoramargolis]

Let's face it. Small wine retailers hate Parker/WS et al because widely disseminated reviewer scores make it harder to sell bottles that don't get reviewed or get low scores. And they hate big low-margin retail outfits for the same reason that neighborhood grocers (the few that are left) hate Costco--the big box stores siphon away business.

But a lot of the angst being expressed and echoed by those in the wine trade may be somewhat disengenuous. There are lots of high income folks in this town who are much too busy making deals and money to research the lowest price for wines they don't have enough time to read about. They're still going to buy expensive bottles from local retailers who provide boutique service. Lots of rich women still shop at ritzy little boutiques and Neiman Marcus, though some will go to the garment district in NY to find the same designer duds at a discount. It all depends on time and priorities...

As for me, I have time but no money and inadequate storage. I buy wine on a regular basis, but I'm small potatoes compared to Joe Heflin. I can't take advantage of case discounts or case purchases on the net because I have no place to put the stuff. But, like Joe, I consider myself a savvy shopper and I buy on sale or from wine merchants who will meet other merchants' advertised price.

The capitalist system is stacked against us little guys in so many ways; we all need to find any little edge we can. That includes small retailers, of course. So why don't you guys get creative and think about ways you might attract buyers like me, if you really want my business as much as you say you do? Clearly, that means more than just giving "good advice" or special ordering things that aren't on the shelf.

[jparrott]

Do you drink much top-notch Muscadet? Ever experienced the joy of a delicate, filigreed Riesling Kabinett? How about the nervy whites of the Sudtirol? The bright, orange/rose/clay-infused Nebbiolos from Ghemme, Spanna, Valtellina (if you want more power), or Gattinara? The sweet earth and herb undertones of the perfectly-balanced fruit of great Cornas? You're never going to, either, if all you're looking to buy is the stuff the big guys discount. And most of that list is going to be under $20. Need under $10? How about Domaine de la Pepiere muscadet (which, admirably, Wine Library carries)? Or the exuberant-but-balanced Andre Iche "Les Heretiques" that the same person imports. Or QbA rieslings from the Cellars International portfolio? Or the bright and fresh, but rich Beaujolais-Villages (and even better Beaujolais Blanc) from Jean-Paul Brun?

If a wine gets a great review, it only gets discounted if it's (a) verrry large production or ( the retailer happened to secure a sweetheart deal. For those guys that are able to make those deals, more power to them. And here's a non-secret: some of the best small guys do that very well, and it's how they can stock the more interesting wines. But in either case, chances are the wine isn't going to be nearly as interesting as a single-taste note on a shelf-talker will let on. And let's face it, nobody's giving big points to the kinds of wines I've listed above. Matter of fact, some reviewers (this is pre-Schildknecht at the Wine Advocate, so we'll see, but they're not the only one) have said that there is an upper limit to what score they'll give a Kabinett.

But do you eat steak every day? Do you care about matching food and wine? Do you care about wines being well-made in a style reflective of soil and cepage, not toasted wood? Do you care about knowing anything about what you're drinking other than what kinds of berry jam and spices it smells and tastes like and that you can't drink more than two glasses because it's 15% alcohol? Do you care about learning more about wine with each bottle you buy? Do you care about trying new wines in new styles with new foods? You're a well-established, valued member of this board, so chances are that, if I asked any of the above questions about restaurants, you'd say yes. Why hold wine to a lower standard? Why stunt your development as a wine drinker? Because if you buy Google wine, that's what you're doing.

ETA: We live in the DC area. This area gets the best selection of wines in the country, because of the permissive DC import laws and the relative ease (compared to NYC and Chicago) of delivering wine. You, Rockweilers, have no excuse to buy Google wine.

Edited January 15, 2006 by jparrott

[jparrott]

[in this and the preceding message, please think of "you" as referring to any of you, not the particular people in this thread.]

I want to clarify a little bit. I don't want anyone to buy the kinds of wines I cite because they're "helping out the little guy." Buy them because they are the soul of wine. Buy them because you can't vinify melon de bourgogne anywhere other than the Clos des Briords to get that nervy edge and immense aromatic depth. Buy them because you think it's cool than the Brauneberger Juffer and Brauneberger Juffer-Sonnenuhr vineyards have been appreciated for their differences through the centuries. Buy them because you want to know what happens when you rack sauvignon blanc into a little used wood. Or when you don't try to artificially restrain how chenin blanc takes in oxidation during fermentation. Buy them because these observations are the soul of wine. They are what separates vinification from distillation, or chemical engineering. They are what separates winegrowing from canned tomato-growing. They are natural beauty, in a handy carrying case, that tastes good, that inspires you as a cook, that celebrates its diversity and inability to be cast along single-dimension measures such as "hedonism" or "fruitiness."

So here's the non-secret behind why I'm saying this. The more you care about what's in your glass, the more you engage with your wines, the better we little guys do. We little guys can't win on Google wine. We're not after market share. We're after customer share. We feel that, if we pique your interest just a bit, you'll pour our wines for your friends, and talk about what you've learned. Maybe that piques their interest a little bit. Now we've got another person who cares, and you've got a friend to help you explore the world. Symbiosis! And since no one sees the total wine market in the US contracting any time soon, our syllogism goes, the rising tide will gather all boats, and our revenue will increase. And whilst that tide does its thing, your friend is sharing bottles with you and their other friends, and the cycle goes again. You and your friends drink better wine, you and your friends care more about your wines, you and your friends become more demanding of your wines, and our wine culture improves. As time goes by, a larger and larger critical mass of people who see through the Google wine edifice emerges, and we will demand more of our wine critics, our wine shops, and our fellow wine drinkers, and the culture will continue to improve. Sure, we'll do a little bit better, but the wine world will be a lot better place.

</soapbox>

[zoramargolis]

Do you care about matching food and wine?  Do you care about wines being well-made in a style reflective of soil and cepage, not toasted wood?  Do you care about knowing anything about what you're drinking other than what kinds of berry jam and spices it smells and tastes like and that you can't drink more than two glasses because it's 15% alcohol?  Do you care about learning more about wine with each bottle you buy?  Do you care about trying new wines in new styles with new foods?  You're a well-established, valued member of this board, so chances are that, if I asked any of the above questions about restaurants, you'd say yes.  Why hold wine to a lower standard?  Why stunt your development as a wine drinker?  Because if you buy Google wine, that's what you're doing.

ETA:  We live in the DC area.  This area gets the best selection of wines in the country, because of the permissive DC import laws and the relative ease (compared to NYC and Chicago) of delivering wine.  You, Rockweilers, have no excuse to buy Google wine.

The only thing, in my estimation, that stunts my development as a wine drinker, friend, is my pocketbook. And frankly, I buy more often on the basis of importers I trust than I do based on Parker scores. But I value Parker reviews, because I trust him not to tout lousy wine. I've had too many disappointments based on the recommendations of wine salesmen, over the years that I've been drinking wine.

I used to drink a lot of Muscadet back in the 1970's and 80's because it was the best cheap white wine I could find at that time. And I read books about wine, read wine discussion boards and explore different regions, grapes and styles to the extent that I can, based on my budget. But there's a lot of crap with Muscadet labels on the bottle. If I'm going to buy Muscadet these days, I read reviews to try to suss out the good ones. And I taste wines that are offered in wine shops, when I can.

Comparatively, I don't buy a lot of white wine. Kabinett riesling, occasionally. Prefer dry muscat, viognier or torrontes with dishes where a riesling would be appropriate. Recently, curiosity about cab franc led me to explore Chinon and Saumur Champigny. Drink a fair amount of Cotes de Rhones and Languedocs--I'm afraid that Cornas and the best CNdPs and the Northern Rhones like St. Joseph and Hermitage are beyond my budget. Beaujolais is my poor man's pinot-equivalent, for roast chicken and salmon. I stocked up on 2003 Fleurie and Julienas when they were on special, based on WA reviews. I have been getting into Italian wines more, enjoy aglianico a lot, chianti classico, dolcetto and barbera not so much, at least not the ones in my price range. I've been reading about Nebbiolo lately, and would love to explore Ghemme, Gattinara and Valtellina not to mention Barolo, but they are out of my price range--although I just drank a wonderful 2000 Seghesio Barolo for my birthday dinner, on the recommendation of Tom Hanna at MacArthur's (YES, I DO OCCASIONALLY LISTEN TO WISE WINE CONSULTANTS OTHER THAN ROBERT PARKER).

But I definitely read Parker for Australian and Spanish recs. I certainly don't like everything he recommends, but there is just so much cheap swill coming out of these two places that it definitely pays to be cautious. And there have been occasions when I have had an opportunity to buy a wine that Parker loves (Torbreck Woodcutter's Shiraz, for example, which is delicious) via mail order at a per-bottle price, including shipping, that no local retailer could match. On a couple of occasions I have ordered and split a case of Australian wine with Joe Heflin. But mostly I buy local. Usually, but not always, if the bottle is also discounted.

So back off the high horse, just a little. This is not about blindly following a herd mentality. We are each on our own odyssey of exploration in the vast world of wine, to the extent we are able. Just because we are interested in getting the best value for our hard-earned money does not make us simple-minded or unadventurous.

[jparrott]

So I had a long post, but DR.com ate it. Zora, it's clear that you are miles above a Google wine buyer. And anyone that drinks Chinon is a friend of mine. But there are plenty of people out there that are. And the guys that discount the Google wines are trying to keep those people right there. They want Google wine buyers to only view wine in one way--the Authorized Critic's number and the particular blend of jammy berries, vanilla, and smoke that this particular barriqued clone exhibits. If the Google wine suppliers keep the Google wine buyers thinking that way, the Google wine suppliers' job is easy and they make money. And the Google wine critics make more money because Google wine buyers tell their beer-drinking friends that the Google wine critic is the only thing you need to know to get through buying that gift bottle of wine. But the Google wine buyers never progess as wine drinkers.

I'm not going to speak for Riley. But when I pour you (the general you) a wine at a tasting, the last thing I want to do is take an iron grip over how you think about the wine. I'll throw out a few different kinds of facts--food match, flavor profile, soil, personality stories, all the while looking for verbal and non-verbal cues as to what sticks. Now, I can help you think about my wines in a way that makes sense to you. And, I'll also throw in a few extra things to see if they pique your interest. A focused firehose, as it were. But when I encounter a Google wine buyer and I begin this dance, all I get is a blank stare and "this wine is too dry. I like my wine sweeter." Note that said Google wine buyer need not be a consumer. I get plenty of that from retailers and distributors too. But if I do make that connection, then that person's going to buy some wine, pour it for their friends, and begin a process of expanding the circle of non-Google wine drinkers.

So there are two competing cycles here. We non-Google suppliers are trying to draw people and their friends out of the stranglehold of the Google wine critics and Google wine suppliers, and the Google wine critics and Google wine suppliers are trying to get the Google wine buyers to spread that Google gospel. Of course it's in my self-interest and in the interest of our wine culture as a whole to break the stranglehold of the Google wine suppliers over the wine psyches of consumers. You've gotten there, Zora. But plenty of people haven't.

[Barbara]

The only thing, in my estimation, that stunts my development as a wine drinker, friend, is my pocketbook.

Just because we are interested in getting the best value for our hard-earned money does not make us simple-minded or unadventurous.

This is it in a nutshell. We drink wine with dinner EVERY night. For us, a glass (or two) with a meal is a requirement. We fancy that we are misplaced Europeans in that regard--nevermind that our ancestry is Swedish, Irish and British: all places known for their wines! {How many of you reading this have ever had Welsh, I said, Welsh, wine? }

I don't even want to know what wine that costs $500 a bottle tastes like, unless I win the lottery and can forgo worrying about the price.

We are on a hunt for delicious stuff to drink with meals which doesn't cost very much. The wine experts here may consider this a fool's errand, but I don't. Serendipity has played the greatest role in coming up with a list of our "go to" wines with this exception: Jake picked out a wine at a DR.com event which was better and $10 cheaper than the same type of wine someone else recommended some time ago. There is NO way we would have discovered this otherwise. So, Thank You Jake!

Most of us need help. I am fortunate that in the city there are a few places where this kind of help is sometimes available. I find the wine columns and other published advice to be too subjective to really be that helpful. However, there doesn't seem to be much else out there.

[jparrott]

I nominate Barbara's post as the first draft of the "Rockwellian Wine Creed" and offer no edits. Except for the bit about my picking out a wine--'cause all credit for that goes to Tom Power.

[cjsadler]

Just FYI: Wine Library has some free shipping codes out there from time to time. You can usually find them on the forums at a place like fatwallet.com. I ordered from them a couple times last year when they were offering it (currently they haven't done it this year yet). If you know what you want and they have it, the prices with free shipping can be way too low for some of us to ignore.

[Joe H]

Wasn't aware of that. I read the various posts on fatwallet and noted at least three different codes over a period of months last year. Factoring that into the already remarkably low price puts this way over the top. Last week their #1 selling wine was the 2003 Altos de Luzon for $12.99. I saw this at MacArthur a few weeks ago for something like $18.99. It's fantastic! At this price raises the standard for everyday wine to a new level! Also interesting to read that they market heavily in New York-one code was 1050 from advertising on a radio station at that part of the dial. They've got to have an awfully small margin but the volume they are doing must be just incredible! For those who are able to visit this new store (at this location) it is just incredible-I'd expected a cinderblock warehouse and its the complete opposite.

To be honest, I do not believe I would buy from them during the summer. I'm still not convinced that wine can be protected from extreme heat in shipping. I wonder if their sales fall down certain months because of this?

[jparrott]

Most stores that routinely ship will hold wine over the summer free of charge. But there is a service element to scheduling the eventual shipment, and some places fall flat on their faces then.

[B.A.R.]

My trusted wine outlet (Rick's wine and gourmet, Alexandria) consistently provides me with great service, educated suggestions, and interesting selections. They will always be my go to shop for most of my purchases. They give a 10% discount on all mixed cases, and a 15% discount on full cases. Their prices are reasonable and I appreciate them, especially now that I live in Fairfax. I wouldn't feel right if they turned me on to a wine I was unfamiliar with, and then buying from someone else.

To me, it breaches the trust of my relationship.

However, if I went to a restaurant and found a bottle of wine I enjoyed, you bet I'm checking to see if it is available at the Wine Library first. Price, in this instance, is paramount.

A big thank you to Joe H., as I hadn't heard of this place and you probably just saved me a few hundred bucks over the next 12 months.

[Joe H]

I had the same loyalty, respect and trust as you to a local shop called the Wine Cabinet in Reston. I really like the two owners, relate to them and felt that they were flexible in their pricing policies. Several times I've "assembled" a group of neighbors to "qualify" for a 20% discount by buying X number of cases. I've also spent a fair amount of money there over time.

I paid $89.95 for a bottle of Elderton Reserve Shiraz at the Wine Cabinet. $39.95 at the Wine Library. When I asked how much Altos de Luzon was for a case the answer I was given told me that I could buy four cases from the Wine Library (or a half dozen other stores on Wine Zap) for the price of three from the Wine Cabinet. When I asked how much for Sierra Cantabria Cuvee Especial the answer was almost double for what I paid from New Jersey.

I could go on.

But I've never bought "only" from the Wine Cabinet. For years-many years-I've bought off the internet, drove monthly to C/W, Magruder's/Schneider's/MacArthur/etc., even stopped at State Line and, because I spend 30-40 days a year in Europe on business, ALWAYS brought back at least 8 to 10 bottles in my luggage because of the exchange rate which several years ago ranged between .83 to .89 to the dollar. Today it is 1.21 and rarely worth carrying anything back. Also, for over twenty years, when travelling I would visit wine shops and liquor stores around the U. S. and Europe.

I also cannot tell you how many bottles of wine that I bought from the Wine Cabinet which were promoted by them that I did not return to buy a second bottle of. Yes, they turned me on to Clio at $49.95 with a 10% case discount bringing it down to a few cents under $45. On winezap.com there is not a single LIST price this high! And, I can buy it from a half dozen stores for $31.99 or so plus $2.00 shipping.

How much do I pay for loyalty and the occasional bottle that I really like when I am being ripped off? What percentage of bottles do I buy that are not on someone else's recommendation? Rather, on a hunch, points, knowing the winery, something I read, had a different year and liked it, know the area where the grapes are grown, etc. 90%? 95% There are only a handful whose taste and opinions seem to approximate mine. Frankly, one is Parker and I pay for his opinions; still, they are only a guide as are other printed sources. Gambero Rosso categorizes particular wineries and their wines. This is as trustworthy as any reference. And this is a book that I buy in Italy.

Still, having said all this, at some point the percentage of wine that I bought from "other" sources fell dramatically and the amount that I bought from the Wine Cabinet rose to, perhaps, the majority of my wine purchases.

I spend more money on wine than perhaps I should. I am willing to pay an extra 5, even 10% because of personality, store, my source for the wine, they turned me on to it, etc. But I also am not going to let someone take advantage of me. All I am doing is returning full time to what I did for several decades before this one store opened: going to where I can get the best price for wine that is in excellent condition.

A 15% discount on a mixed case seems eminently reasonable. But if that mixed case has "list" prices 20% + higher than what the list price is noted as elsewhere, well, so much for my buying wine from them. I've found that not all "list" prices are the same. I also respect that this is an extremely-ferociously-competitive market. But I've never had "only" one store that I bought from. Until recently never even came close. Now, I am merely returning to the same judgments and values that I had before.

Anyway, all I wanted to do (as I did for four years on Chowhound) was pass along an occasional wine that I really liked at a price and source that was worth pursuing it. I've had a lot of private e-mails over the years thanking me for this and I just want to share with others. Please note my post about "three Spanish wines at three price points.." I have no loyalty to the Wine Library other than their pricing and REALLY liking their store. For the moment, I trust their shipping and their pricing. Of course like the local Wine Cabinet this is subject to change...

Having said all this, if Zora didn't like the Altos.....

[zoramargolis]

Having said all this, if Zora didn't like the Altos.....

I have a glass of it in front of me as I am writing this. And there was some concern on your part that I wouldn't like it? I am having a hard time keeping my nose out of the glass. Perhaps a bit heavy on the vanilla/oak when I first poured, but is opening up with a little time and air and revealing intense plum, blackberry and spicebox characteristics. Sweet tannins and a long finish with a measure of sour cherry in it. It is a gorgeous, rich red and in the immortal words of the Big Bopper: "YOU KNOW WHAT I LIKE"...

Thanks for the rec, Joe.

[Joe H]

Wow! The Big Bopper! J. P. Richardson and 1962, even KLIF in Dallas, his home station....well I digress and many on this thread won't understand/relate to a bit of my coming of age. (Who WAS Jerry Blavat? Or Robert W. Morgan? What IS a geator with a heater? Or Barry Richards?) But He would have liked Altos de Luzon 2003! I am certain of this.

Coincidentally, I have my own bottle of Altos '03. I toast you, Zora!

Edited January 21, 2006 by Joe H

[ctay122]

I have a glass of it in front of me as I am writing this. And there was some concern on your part that I wouldn't like it? I am having a hard time keeping my nose out of the glass. Perhaps a bit heavy on the vanilla/oak when I first poured, but is opening up with a little time and air and revealing intense plum, blackberry and spicebox characteristics. Sweet tannins and a long finish with a measure of sour cherry in it.  It is a gorgeous, rich red and in the immortal words of the Big Bopper: "YOU KNOW WHAT I  LIKE"...

Thanks for the rec, Joe.

I am on the wine library website now looking at this wine because of you and Joe. I am wondering why they don't ship to VA. I thought VA allows shipments of out of state wine now. Heck, I guess I need to move to DC.

[Joe H]

They DO ship to VA. You just have to pay tax and answer the phone when they call the next day for confirmation. And, don't forget the 2001 Sierra Cantabria Cuvee Especial Rioja which is $16.99 along with the 2003 Altos at $12.99 and the 2001 Clio at $31.99 which may be gone by now....

Time to open another bottle....

....An aspirin bottle....

and, Ctay: if you do order a bottle or two please post your thoughts on here when you open it-good or bad. Thanks.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Joe H

[jparrott]

revealing intense plum, blackberry and spicebox characteristics.

I'm sorry, this is a wine that is allegedly mostly monastrell (mourvedre) and tempranillo? Doesn't sound like it to me.

(Sorry, hanging curve ball. Had to swat.)

[zoramargolis]

I'm sorry, this is a wine that is allegedly mostly monastrell (mourvedre) and tempranillo?  Doesn't sound like it to me.

(Sorry, hanging curve ball.  Had to swat.)

Chacon a son gout, baby. No sweaty saddles here. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[zoramargolis]

I'm sorry, this is a wine that is allegedly mostly monastrell (mourvedre) and tempranillo?  Doesn't sound like it to me.

(Sorry, hanging curve ball.  Had to swat.)

Hi Jake:

When I responded to this post, late last night. I had not examined the bottle or read the label. This morning I read the back label, which indicates that the wine is 50% monastrell, 25% CABERNET, and 25% tempranillo.

It also says: "...The results of this struggle between vine and nature is a wine with tremendous saturation of color, round rich flavors of ripe plums, blackberries and cassis, balanced with notes of warm spices...The long, well developed finish...blah blah gifted winemaking, etc."

I was just describing what I smelled and tasted in the glass. Okay, I got sour cherry instead of cassis in the finish. But otherwise, my palate seems to agree with the folks who make the wine, or at the very least, the marketers who wrote the label copy.

But your statement above is dissing me, by presuming you know and I don't, what a wine that you haven't tasted SHOULD taste like, versus what I got in the glass. That attitude could use some adjustment, as I say to my teenager now and again.

(Hanging spit ball. Had to swat back.)

[jparrott]

I'm not dissing you AT ALL. I'm dissing the wine. I have no doubt that that is what you smelled. And I also have no doubt as to why that's what the wine smells like....

[zoramargolis]

And I also have no doubt as to why that's what the wine smells like....

Is this, by any chance what you are hinting at?

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=80974

[jparrott]

Well that's one of several things. I wasn't referring to that in particular, but it's certainly a candidate.

[Escoffier]

Without intending to muddy the waters (mull the wine?)...I have found winezap.com to be a very good source of hard to find, esoteric, fine wines.

They allow you to compare wine prices from wine stores across the US. I've found the Jindalee that I was looking for in NJ via Winezap so for me, it works.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Escoffier

[Joe H]

I found the Wine Library from Winezap. There is another excellent one, www.wine-searcher.com which is international while winezap.com is American.

[Escoffier]

I found the Wine Library from Winezap.  There is another excellent one, www.wine-searcher.com which is international while winezap.com is American.

always glad to add another resource to my search for good wines. Thanks.

[zoramargolis]

Just a note to add here-- I ordered a case of wine via the website on a Thursday. No tax charged (I'm in the District). No follow-up phone call to confirm the order, but did receive e-mails regarding acceptance of the order and shipping info. Delivered by UPS on the following Tuesday. Shipped in an unmarked box with a custom-fitted, two piece styrofoam insert to hold the bottles securely, in an upright position. Bottle temp was quite cool but not ice cold. Count me as a satisfied customer.

[Joe Riley]

Just a note to add here-- I ordered a case of wine via the website on a Thursday. No tax charged (I'm in the District). No follow-up phone call to confirm the order, but did receive e-mails regarding acceptance of the order and shipping info. Delivered by UPS on the following Tuesday. Shipped in an unmarked box with a custom-fitted, two piece styrofoam insert to hold the bottles securely, in an upright position. Bottle temp was quite cool but not ice cold. Count me as a satisfied customer.

That's excellent news, Zora. Glad to hear it. I do have to ask you this though: What is your recourse if any of your wines are corked or otherwise flawed? Or if you just plain don't like something that you ordered? Are you forced to write it off as a trade-off for the price you paid? If you'd purchased them from a retailer such as myself, I would, of course, immediately credit you or swap out the bad bottles, or otherwise find a way to satisfy you.

[Joe H]

The advent of the internet and, recent state and Supreme court decisions, have changed forever how I and many others buy wine. To use an example, if my wife and I drink 10 bottles a week (including entertaining) and the average bottle is $15 a bottle that's $8,000 a year wine. Include in this an occasional $30 bottle and a very occasional $50+. We're now over $10,000 for wine.

I'm using prices from the Internet and competitive stores. Using 20% as a guideline that's $2,000 more that I am paying if I buy all this from a local store. Yes, sometimes I can get a 10% case discount locally but sometimes I get 30, even 40% buying through the internet. With shipping, especially on a bottle that lists $25 or more (Sierra Cantabria 2001 Cuvee Especial this morning was $24.99 at Calvert Woodley-I've bought three cases for $16.99 from the Wine Library.) the cost of this becomes almost negligible especially when you factor in 9% D. C. sales tax versus no sales tax when shipping into D. C.

I am not going to give you $2,000+ each year.

Your alternatives for buyers like me? I bought two cases of 2003 Altos de Luzon this morning from Paul's for $13.99 a bottle. The extra dollar plus the D. C. sales tax equals the $24 per case shipping I pay out of the Wine Library (or Sparrow or a half dozen others in New York and New Jersey).

Paul's will match the internet price if I am buying multiple cases. Of course I then have to drive from Reston to upper Northwest and bring it home. As opposed to typing on a computer and moving the boxes in from under the mailbox in front of my house.

I will give Paul's a chance because I respect their efforts.

But I've found that I can buy a mixed case of wine-12 individual bottles-from the Wine Library/Wine Club/Sparrow/Woodland Hills, etc. and use my own curiosity and research to turn up bottles certainly as good, if not better, than what anyone in any store can recommend for me.

This changes your life and everyone in the retail wine business, a second blow coming after wholesale warehouses like Costco. I type this because rather than defend and/or debate this I believe you are wasting time. A year from now there will be more people IN THE HABIT or WHO FEEL COMFORTABLE buying off of the internet and buying in volume (especially with internet merchants now shipping 3 and 6 bottle packs in addition to 12 bottle cases) that you will not make up the ground. The cost difference is tremendous. I am more than willing to throw away a bottle that is bad.

For $2,000 + I can throw away a lot of bottles.

The Wine Library and a number of others are at the forefront of this. MacArthur and Calvert Woodley are in it. Why don't you advertise (Wine Library is on WINS) and let people know that someone living in the 3 million populated Northern Virginia suburbs can buy from your website and you will ship to them via Fed Ex ground. Buying wine off of the internet from D. C. is a helluva lot more preferable than buying from New Jersey. Or California which I rarely do anymore.

There's a very real opportunity if you will accept volume and a substantially lower margin. But for the reason that more and more American manufacturing AND ENGINEERING is going offshore (no one has begun to talk about engineering-that's huge, huge (($80-100,000 a year jobs are being lost right and left)) ) there are a lot of adjustments coming to industries and livelihoods because of the internet and globalization. Wine is one of them.

I am not unsympathetic; this affects me in my business, too. My industry is different today than 5, 10 or 25 years ago when I started. I've had to learn to adjust. All those on this board who complain about out of state wine-this is only beginning. Rather than complain, take the oportunity to go after this market.

[Joe Riley]

(above post)

I'm sorry Joe, but were you responding to me? It looks as though you were addressing that post directly towards me, but I wasn't sure. My post previous to yours was asking an honest question of Zora, I'd truly like to know the answer to it.

If that system works for you, more power to you. I think that there's room for everybody. I've shopped online before, and if you know precisely what you're looking for, it can be quite a boon.

Even you must admit though, that it can be fraught with peril. Where is your wine being stored before it is shipped? How is the shipper treating it? Is it sitting on some loading dock somewhere in the sun being baked? What if it gets the Samsonite treatment, is your order insured? Unless some shippers have changed their policies, wine is not insured. The Internet store doesn't offer virtual tasting, do they? So many stores have tastings where you can decide for yourself on the spot if you want that wine.

And you're fooling yourself if you think that Congress is done with the issue of sales tax on Internet shipments. I forsee a day when every online merchant will be required to collect all sales taxes per jurisdiction.

Right now, I am in the process of working with some good customers on their 2001 Brunello pre-orders. Do the Internet wine shops have pre-arrival offerings that you can secure pre-arrival wines with?

You say, "Rather than complain, take the oportunity to go after this market."? I'm not complaining. There will ALWAYS be a significant portion of the marketplace that puts a premium on service vs. potential savings - heck, there are personal shoppers, for goodness sake - and we are here to help them.

[Joe H]

"Complain" was too strong of a word and I do apologize for that. But I DO believe that there is a very real LOCAL market waiting there for someone to capture. A D. C. store can be in the position to go after the suburban customer in the same way that the NJ or NY store can with the one great advantage I mentioned: you are so much closer. My guess is that the Wine Library/Sparrow/PJ/etc. are focusing on the metro NY market. There's 6.3 million people now in the D. C. area with half of them across the river from you. Someone is going to "mine" this. I am really surprised that unlike the NY area store no one has really gone after it yet. Especially with all the competition on Monday morning in the Post and fighting off Total, etc.

Anyway, fortunately not everyone is like me.

Take care.

[Pool Boy]

Internet purchase of wine is useful as you can shop around and get the best deal. If you know what you ae looking for that is. Parker is Parker and knowing what he likes and doesn't (even if you do not match up to his style) is useful as you can determine if you'd like it based on his TNs or not. Ditto for any other person or persons that review wine.

I purchase not too much on the internet, but when I do, I know what I am looking for and price/service are king.

[jparrott]

I just got back from running a booth at the Boston Wine Expo. We had several people working our small booth, so I had some time to slip away. What table did I return to, again and again? Chateau d'Arlay, a maker of traditional Jura styles. Rose from trousseau, poulsard, gamay, savagnin, and chardonnay, aged three years in old wood. Chardonnay raised four years in ancient foudres. An ethereal vin jaune, seven years in foudres, supple, elegant, nervy, and infinitely stimulating. Vins liqueureux, fortified with four-year-old marc. And vin de paille that had the whole package. Monumental wines. Godlike wines. Wines for which it was an honor to taste and discuss with the husband and wife owners/farmers/winemakers.

And wines the Wine Library would never, ever, ever touch unless they could get them for a buck on deep, deep, deep closeout.

Sure it's an extreme example. But the point is, that there's a limit to the styles of wines that can work under the Wine Library model. If that's all you drink, then you save a few bucks. But you're not gonna get any vin jaune.

The moral of the story is, we mustn't merely let the other ninety-nine flowers bloom, we need them to thrive. And in this case, it takes a village to raise a garden.

[Joe H]

By the way, was the Wine Show at the convention center cancelled this year? In the past it has been in February and, I would have thought, very successful. Yet this year I've seen no mention of it anywhere.

[jparrott]

It will be at the Omni Shoreham--I confirmed with the lady who runs both shows. Forgot to ask the date.

[Joe Riley]

By the way, was the Wine Show at the convention center cancelled this year?  In the past it has been in February and, I would have thought, very successful.  Yet this year I've seen no mention of it anywhere.

Seems to me that last year, it was held in March. I could be mistaken. Two years ago it was at the very end of February.

[Joe Riley]

I just got back from running a booth at the Boston Wine Expo.  We had several people working our small booth, so I had some time to slip away.  What table did I return to, again and again?  Chateau d'Arlay, a maker of traditional Jura styles.  Rose from trousseau, poulsard, gamay, savagnin, and chardonnay, aged three years in old wood.  Chardonnay raised four years in ancient foudres.  An ethereal vin jaune, seven years in foudres, supple, elegant, nervy, and infinitely stimulating.  Vins liqueureux, fortified with four-year-old marc.  And vin de paille that had the whole package.  Monumental wines.  Godlike wines.  Wines for which it was an honor to taste and discuss with the husband and wife owners/farmers/winemakers.

And wines the Wine Library would never, ever, ever touch unless they could get them for a buck on deep, deep, deep closeout. 

Sure it's an extreme example.  But the point is, that there's a limit to the styles of wines that can work under the Wine Library model.  If that's all you drink, then you save a few bucks.  But you're not gonna get any vin jaune.

The moral of the story is, we mustn't merely let the other ninety-nine flowers bloom, we need them to thrive.  And in this case, it takes a village to raise a garden.

That's an excellent point. There are scores (pardon the pun) of wines that escape the notice of the wine press because they are too esoteric or considered "nitch" marketing. How many great U.S. wine importers have to choose not to import certain wines because, as much as they may love them, they realize the cruel reality of the marketplace will render them all but unsaleable.

JParrot, have you ever had the Jacques Puffeney wines from Arbois? He is THE guy in Arbois, and someone whom Neal Rosenthal feels a special kinship with. His wines are truly wonderful and lovely, but completely outside the personal flavor paradigms of most U.S. wine drinkers, even those who profess a preference for French wines. I love them, but I only have one wine in stock, and only a couple of customers that I know of who are interested in them. It's a pity. I really love the wines and wish I could sell more of them.

[jparrott]

According to the website, June 24 and 25.

[jparrott]

I know Puffeney's wines only slightly--they're not open for tasting much. If I remember correctly, he does a 100% Savagnin bottling in the traditional long-years-in-foudre style, which I found to be a bit too austere (in its context)...that said, it was several years ago and I don't have notes to look back on. I'd welcome an opportunity to revisit them.

His vin jaune, I believe, is a good bit more expensive that d'Arlay's.

[zoramargolis]

[quote name=Joe Riley' date='Jan 30 2006, 02:33

My post previous to yours was asking an honest question of Zora, I'd truly like to know the answer to it.

If that system works for you, more power to you. I think that there's room for everybody. I've shopped online before, and if you know precisely what you're looking for, it can be quite a boon.[/quote]

Mr. Riley-- I have bought wine on the Internet exactly twice. First, from Premier Cru I bought a case of Torbreck Woodcutter's Shiraz, paying for it in October (prior to its arrival in the US) and waiting until March to receive it, so that there would be no risk of it freezing en route. The second time was last week, when I bought one case from Wine Library. I have not had to deal with any bad bottles, but if I were to, it's likely that the wines in question are not so expensive that it would justify all of the trouble of returning one bottle, if it were an entire case I would ship it back. That is sometimes my attitude with the occasional bad bottle here--sometimes it is not worth the time and gas money to take it back to the store, because it was a cheap bottle to begin with. I have read online about heat damaged cases being sent back to out of state shippers, and any business that wants to keep customers and avoid having their name spread all over the internet wine boards as bad actors will take damaged wine back and issue refunds.

In recent weeks, I have bought bottles of wine where I usually buy wine: at Paul's, MacArthur's, The Vineyard, Rodman's, Balducci, P Street and Vienna Whole Foods, and Magruder's. I also shop occasionally at Arrowine, Rick's, Wide World of Wine and Total. I don't have a wine cellar or off-site storage. I almost never buy by the case, though I have about 200 bottles stashed in cool closets and cupboards in my house. I realize that you are trying to challenge me to make a point. Someone who buys as much wine as Joe H moving all of his wine purchasing to an Internet company might represent your worst nightmare and a harbinger of a major trend you must try to quash with persuasive rhetoric. But I am no threat to you, or local winesellers, since I don't shop in your store. I buy wines I am interested in for a variety of reasons, not just Parker scores, and I try to find them at the best price I can. I almost never buy any wine over $25 a bottle and I rarely go that high. Once in a while, if I taste a wine I really like, and decide that it is something I want to have multiple bottles of, AND I see it on the web at a price I doubt any local wine merchant can match--when you add $2 a bottle in shipping to an inexpensive wine, it's not always such a great deal--then I might buy on the Internet again.

Terry Thiese's remarks about connoisseurship and your badinage with JParrott about wines that few others have the sophisticated palates to appreciate remind me of the "high-fi" snobs of my youth--my brother was one. I'm sure they are more invested than ever in their audio snobbery, with all the high end home electronics around, but I'm not living with it anymore. My brother and his buddies would get together and listen to special recordings designed to highlight minute and subtle sound distinctions that only their very sensitive equipment could evoke. They were listening to sounds, not music... Me, I have a decent receiver and very good JBL speakers that allow me to have a pleasurable experience, listening to music I enjoy. It's probably not one that a sound geek could live with--it's about fifteen years old now. But I remember with great distaste how they used to congratulate each other on their superior auditory acuity and heap scorn on those who didn't have their superior ability to know good equipment from bad.

Those of us who enjoy good wine that gives pleasure, and enhances the experience of dining do not need to be derided for valuing the opinions of Robert Parker, or enjoying "international-style' wines that might not have enough terroir of the Jura to suit your superior palates. Snobbery is not at all appealing when viewed from outside the inner circle, fellas. Do it on PM instead.

Edited January 31, 2006 by zoramargolis

[Joe Riley]

Please, Zora - call me Joe, we're all friends here, right? :-)

I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm truly not trying to challenge you to make a point or do anything else in this thread, really. If anything, I'm attempting to better understand the buying habits of knowledgeable wine consumers, that's all.

Joe H hardly represents my "worst nightmare", and I'm not trying to "quash any trends with persuasive rhetoric". I'd like to think that I'm merely pointing out the positive aspects of traditional wine retail, since they seem to take a bit of a bashing here, as well as point out that there are trade-offs in every aspect of commerce.

95% of my business is telephone deliver and events. Most of my non-catering and corporate customers don't have the time, nor want to have to TAKE the time to do in-depth Internet shopping and research, they have other interests which occupy their time. They'd rather place themselves into the hands of a trusted professional and I'm pleased when they choose me to help them.

If I've offended you or come across as hostile, please forgive me, it was never my intention - I don't post "angry". Inflection, timber and nuance can get misconstrued on message boards. I'm merely trying to be earnest, and Don seems to prefer that threads not get "chatty", so I'm doing my best to comply with his wishes.

Since it seems that you've made the tour of many local wine establishments, I invite you to drop by sometime and just check us out. Have a meal at Chef Geoff's next door or shop at Balducci's and make an afternoon of it. You don't have to buy anything (though I'd be willing to make it worth your while :-) but you might be surprised at what we have to offer. Not a challenge, just a friendly invitation. Take it for what it is worth. I won't be offended if you don't.

[jparrott]

I'm not at all tuned up to have an argument on the definition of snobbery, but I will say that there's a fair amount of snobbishness in saying that appreciating wines like d'Arlay's and Puffeney's is snobbery in that it reflects an outre approach to wine. Zora, you've got a good enough palate that you are extremely selective and interested in the nuance of foodstuffs, so you should be familiar with the timbre of Riley's and my attitudes toward wine.

So then why does Alain Junguenet, the best importer of Chateauneuf and other southern Rhone wines in America, choose to drop nearly a thousand bucks, plus the not-insubstantal cost of samples, to give d'Arlay a table at one of the country's leading drunkfests? Well I've got news for you--it worked. All during the afternoon, when newbies came to our table and expressed even the barest modicum of interest in our stuff, I would tell them that they needed to taste at d'Arlay, they needed that taste experience, they needed to know that process, and that the d'Arlay table represented a wonderful opportunity that far outstripped sloshing your way through Gallo of Sonoma or Bolla. More that a dozen of the folks that I sent over came back gushing about the wines, the experience, the whole thing.

So I think what Terry Theise is saying, and what I'm trying to say is, when you hear something that sounds like snobbery about a subject as intricate as wine (or food, or music), there may just be a kernel in there that changes the way you think. Maybe not (hi-fi in particular is an example there--partially because the error bands in music media is probably broader than the sound distinction good systems can make), but give it a shot.

[ol_ironstomach]

In many ways, TWL is that wine shop you love to hate. I can't shake the fact that watching the staff reminds me entirely of a car dealership - lots of know-nothing stockboys, nearly as many know-not-more middle managers keenly supervising every square foot while clutching their all-important walkie-talkies, and only a couple of people on the floor who actually seem to have some clue, although not the encyclopedic knowledge one would hope for. That seems to be the exclusive domain of Gary Vaynerchuk, their popstar blogger (whose blog is actually quite entertaining and educational). Alas, no Gary on the floor helping customers today.

That said, as a consumer, it's well worth a browse. The selection is huge. With many of their regular customers hooked on points-based shopping, I can hardly fault them for deploying shelf-talkers like crabgrass. The situation is really no worse than at BevMo or Total...in fact, there are plenty of interesting items probably getting marked down because they have no point rating to attract random shoppers. Seven or eight Lopez de Heredia bottlings? (Thanks, Jake.) I picked up a few Gimmonet releases to try (with Theise/Skurnik labels on the back...thanks, Rocks) that I simply haven't seen elsewhere. And some Joe H-endorsed shiraz...because occasionally, I actually do want a "fruit bomb". (Thanks, Joe.)

TWL is located just east of NJ-24 and just north of I-78. It's on the way, if you're headed to/from NYC by way of I-270/Harrisburg/I-78 (40 miles longer but less likely to back up than the I-95 corridor).

[blakegwinn]

My manager at the restaurant I was working at up here in NJ is a very good childhood friend and now wine drinking buddy of Gary's (They are going on a wine tour of France together in the next couple of months I believe) so I am assuming some of the viewpoints he used to express are passed on from Gary. He seemed very down on ratings but noted they are often a necessity of doing business because the consumer still cares about them. He seemed to typically like Robert parker's ratings though. I like Gary because he seems to realize that good and bad are all relative. If you love white zin by the box and it satisfies your palate than no amount of wine critics or ratings should make you think it isn't a "good" wine. I think internet buying allows a lot of people the opportunity to buy what they like or buy what is in their price range in secret because they are intimidated (possibly by past experiences) of walking into a wine store and asking for something considered crap by "experts" or asking for a suggestion by the dollar amount and getting scoffed at by some winesnob. I also want to note that Joe is great about this and on numerous occasions I have gone in to Ace and gotten fantastic suggestions (and NO snobbery) by going in and saying, "Give me some reds around 10 dollars".

[mr food]

I've never been to the store but I've ordered online numerous times with no problems. Website is too easy to use and they are one of my favorite online wine retailers.

[Sthitch]

I stopped by at the end of August, and found the place to have a very supermarkety feel. I generally look to establish a relationship with the vintners that I use and the Wine Library does not strike me as a place where I could do that. I was really unimpressed with the Champagne selection that they had, it was not Macarthur (by far their weakest section) or Total bad, but still I kind of expected more.

On a positive note, the liquor prices were very good. Raj was selling for $40 a bottle, and a bottle of Yellow Chartreuse could be swooped-up for $28.

[Wine Guy 23]

I stopped by at the end of August, and found the place to have a very supermarkety feel. I generally look to establish a relationship with the vintners that I use and the Wine Library does not strike me as a place where I could do that. I was really unimpressed with the Champagne selection that they had, it was not Macarthur (by far their weakest section) or Total bad, but still I kind of expected more.

On a positive note, the liquor prices were very good. Raj was selling for $40 a bottle, and a bottle of Yellow Chartreuse could be swooped-up for $28.

Gary has a great show on the web also. tv.winelibrary.com... if you havent seen it , or it hasnt been written about yet.

[Joe H]

Since I began posting about the Wine Library 18 to 20 months ago I've since found a second out of town store that I really like which compliments the WL and Arrowwine for who I buy the bulk of my wine from: Grapes in Norwalk, CT. The irony of this is that I found this store because of a wine that I liked in Italy, tracked down the importer who, when I asked who I should call to order it from, recommended Grapes. The wine that I am talking about is the tre biccheri Tenuta Sant Antonio La Bandina which I posted extensively about on here. Grapes was the only store that made the effort to find this for me.

I've spent X number of thousands of dollars with them since.

John Caplan is the South African born owner of Grapes and seems to have a taste in wine virtually identical to mine. He's also in to Jake's kind of small almost unheard of vintners who turn out fantastic wines that have never been reviewed. Most importantly, I've learned to trust his taste over this time. Currently, his latest discovery is '03 Tenuta Chicherri Valpolicella (yes, ANOTHER Valpolicella) which blows away a lot of amarone I've tasted. Speaking of amarone John has also turned up the WS 95 point Michael Castellane '03 which I have not seen anywhere else.

John will also negotiate if one is willing to buy by the case.

Grapes: www.grapeswine.com

Point being that some wine I buy exclusively for the best price I can find; other (such as Arrowine and Grapes) for a combination of the taste of the owner and the price they are willing to sell for. For anyone reading this: if you are willing to buy by the case and if you find someone whose taste you trust, I would suggest that they will work with you to give you the price you need to complete the sale. I should also note that I rarely, if ever, go to Total. And, for all of the comments about the Wine Library: they are currently selling the '05 Fetish the Watcher (WS under $20 second rated wine of the year) for $14.99. If you, as I live in VA, and order it on Friday it is delivered to my stoop within 24 hours, by noon on Saturday. For that matter I have learned that I order almost exclusively from them before noon on Friday and have, without exception for two years now, received delivery by noon on Saturday.

Grapes takes longer-in fact they are almost eccentric in how they ship. Still, they, as the Wine Library and Arrowine, I trust them.

I should also note here in my mention of Arrowine, I am talking about the once a week special e-mail list which offers incredibly low prices on several wines. He comes across closeouts and specials where he will buy out all that a distributor/wholesaler has, knowing that he can turn around 35-100 or more cases within 24 hours. For anyone reading this who is willing to buy (again, by the case) this is a list you desperately want to be on! The in store prices can be high-but it is the e-mail list that is truly special. He frequently advertises the "best price in the United States." He is serious!

Last, I believe that many retailers will provide the service, taste and willingness to negotiate if you are able to buy quantity. For myself, I've organized groups of neighbors to buy multiple cases of wines from different outlets. The difference in cost can be striking: not just 20, but often 30 or more per cent! With the American dollar's value eroding daily this is quite literally a time to buy as much as you can from "offshore" wine. Shelf prices today reflect the U. S. dollar from a year or two ago, not the all time highs recorded almost daily from various currency. If you can buy by the case, not only will you get the most competitive price in the market but, more than likely, you'll get a much better price than what will be available a year or more from now for similar wine.

I should also mention in closing that "ten per cent off" is a starting point for a case price. Good customers are rewarded by their retailers...

[lackadaisi]

When they send you a case of the wrong wine, it is extraordinarily annoying to be dealing with an internet shop. And they didn't seem to care too much when I called. Yes, they are sending me the right case and a shipping label for the wrong one, but what a total pain in the ass!

[Joe H]

That hasn't happened to me yet. But, when it does, if it's a "lesser" wine I'm sure I'll be totally pissed. A better wine and it will never be mentioned. Real question is how they respond to the mistake. I find the DAILY e-mails from the WL to be really annoying. Still, I really like them a lot which includes three visits to their store in Springfield, NJ.

Recently, I've had another very good experience from Wade's Wines in Westlake Village, CA which is in the Simi Valley north of L. A. I found a wine that I absolutely love called Mantra Revelations 2003. This is VERY SIMILAR to Silver Oak Alexander (I am dead serious in this statement-the winery is literally across the road and uses similar oak and time to age the wine) but sells for $25.50 which is the multi case discount from $35.00. Silver Oak Alexander is north of $60. Several friends of mine and I have collectively bought eleven cases from Wade's in the past two weeks. This includes several neighbors who share my taste for cab. The price represents a 27% discount for a wine that is not sold east of the Mississippi. To the best of my knowledge it has also not been reviewed by any major magazine. If you go on www.wine-searcher.com you'll find that just about every place that formerly sold it is now sold out. If we have a major ice storm on Friday I will be sipping Mantra around this same time, looking out my patio window at the woods behind our house and thankful that I have more than one bottle for the evening...

For that matter, anyone who finds themself in Reston after six on Friday is welcome to come by and have a sip...or two or three. Just e-mail me at [email protected].

Wade's wines: http://www.wadeswines.com/

[LowellR]

As posted on the "Inexpensive but Tasty Sparkling Wines" thread -

I just got back from a trip to/through New Jersey and stopped at Wine Library, about 4 miles off the Turnpike in Springfield. The Gruet was a startling $10.98 and the Riondo a ridonkulous $8.98. The store has a wide selection, fantastic prices, and lots of tasty cheese samples for free nibbling in their gourmet shop. Next time your driving by, it's probably worth the 20 minute detour off the highway.

[Mark Slater]

As posted on the "Inexpensive but Tasty Sparkling Wines" thread -

I just got back from a trip to/through New Jersey and stopped at Wine Library, about 4 miles off the Turnpike in Springfield. The Gruet was a startling $10.98 and the Riondo a ridonkulous $8.98. The store has a wide selection, fantastic prices, and lots of tasty cheese samples for free nibbling in their gourmet shop. This probably isn't the best place to put this, but it didn't seem to fit into the "Intrepid Traveler" or "My Favorite Wine Shop" threads. Either way, next time your driving by, it's probably worth the 20 minute detour off the highway.

There's a saying in the wine business: Buy with bread, sell with cheese.