Public Service Announcement

[porcupine]

If you're thinking about driving out there in the snow watch this video first, then ask yourself why each car lost control.  If you can't answer that question (clue: the answer "they're going too fast" is unacceptably vague), then you shouldn't be driving out there, either.

This especially applies to you knuckleheads who think you're okay because you have 4WD or AWD.  A lot of vehicles in that video are so equipped, too.  You see that they lost control anyway?  Do you understand that there are serious limitations to these systems?  Can you explain what these limitations are?  If not, then you shouldn't be driving out there, either.

Do you think traction control, stability control, and anti-lock brakes are going to save your ass?  If you don't understand what it is they do and how it is they can fail and what you as a driver can do to work around their limitations, then you shouldn't be driving out there, either.

ps did you see the people get out of their cars and stand around as other cars tried to dodge them?!  jesus people are stupid.  grump.

[DonRocks]

If you're thinking about driving out there in the snow watch this video first, then ask yourself why each car lost control.  If you can't answer that question (clue: the answer "they're going too fast" is unacceptably vague), then you shouldn't be driving out there, either.

This especially applies to you knuckleheads who think you're okay because you have 4WD or AWD.  A lot of vehicles in that video are so equipped, too.  You see that they lost control anyway?  Do you understand that there are serious limitations to these systems?  Can you explain what these limitations are?  If not, then you shouldn't be driving out there, either.

Do you think traction control, stability control, and anti-lock brakes are going to save your ass?  If you don't understand what it is they do and how it is they can fail and what you as a driver can do to work around their limitations, then you shouldn't be driving out there, either.

ps did you see the people get out of their cars and stand around as other cars tried to dodge them?!  jesus people are stupid.  grump.

Assuming this is the same Germantown (Wisconsin) pileup video I saw last night, I was rather impressed by the few who managed to slither through that little opening towards the end.

I just watched the first part again - it appears that everything is okay (other than people only vaguely staying in their lanes, and following each other too closely) until the :15 mark, when some idiot who was, drumroll ... going too fast entered the picture on the bottom-left, panicked, and tapped her brakes, forcing the car to veer left - to her credit, she released the brakes, steered into the skid, and straightened out, but by that time it was way too late, and the party began. Although the exact moment is almost irrelevant since a second car, going just as fast as the first, enters the picture at the :17 mark, and she was sliding *sideways*. If there's any poetic justice, it's that those two cars ended up hitting each other, and you can watch both of them for the duration - they also appear to be some of the Darwin Award recipients standing around as 3,000 pound pieces of metal are sliding towards them at 40 mph.

 

[DaveO]

@Porcupine:   I don't know any of the answers to any of your questions.  and I hate driving in this slip sliding messy weather.  I've spun out of control, hit guardrails and parked cars, etc.   Not good at all.  I've been fortunate that none of those spin outs caused worse damage or injury.

Stay at home.  Pour yourself a whiskey or a rum or whatever.  Mix with hot liquids.  Flavor appropriately.   Play music.   Fill the house with the aromas of a wonderful soup.   Stay off roads.  Do us all a favor.

[lperry]

I certainly empathize with the frustration one feels when the clueless believe themselves to be experts in a field you have studied for years.  We will be walking to lunch.

[DonRocks]

Assuming this is the same Germantown (Wisconsin) pileup video I saw last night, I was rather impressed by the few who managed to slither through that little opening towards the end.

I just watched the first part again - it appears that everything is okay (other than people only vaguely staying in their lanes, and following each other too closely) until the :15 mark, when some idiot who was, drumroll ... going too fast entered the picture on the bottom-left, panicked, and tapped her brakes, forcing the car to veer left - to her credit, she released the brakes, steered into the skid, and straightened out, but by that time it was way too late, and the party began. Although the exact moment is almost irrelevant since a second car, going just as fast as the first, enters the picture at the :17 mark, and she was sliding *sideways*. If there's any poetic justice, it's that those two cars ended up hitting each other, and you can watch both of them for the duration - they also appear to be some of the Darwin Award recipients standing around as 3,000 pound pieces of metal are sliding towards them at 40 mph.

 

Come *on*. Nobody is going to take the bait?!

Or ... did Linda slip in a subtle dig?

[lperry]

Come *on*. Nobody is going to take the bait?!

Or ... did Linda slip in a subtle dig?

If I did, it was so subtle that it escaped my notice as well...  Just for grins we're also walking to meet friends for dinner tonight.

[porcupine]

Not bad, Rocks, not bad.  Now the question is do you have the driving skills to match your knowledge?  :-)   I, however, am a bear of very little brain.  What bait?

daveo, good for you for not going out.  Now I am going to put in a plug for my former employer:  Accident Avoidance is not just for teenagers.

[ktmoomau]

Not bad, Rocks, not bad.  Now the question is do you have the driving skills to match your knowledge?  :-)   I, however, am a bear of very little brain.  What bait?

daveo, good for you for not going out.  Now I am going to put in a plug for my former employer:  Accident Avoidance is not just for teenagers.

Thanks for the link.  My husband (he has done a tiny bit of car racing, not like you) has taken a defensive driving courses and swears by it.  I know snow and ice driving from growing up in Western Maryland, but have been thinking about taking one of these courses, especially after a particular incident we had when my husband was driving and his quick and decisive thinking changed the car wreck we were in from potentially hitting and injuring someone who pulled out in front of us and then panicked into injury to solely my car from the median and some reflective stakes.  I will never forget that.

[Toogs]

holy cow there is an amazing amount of stupidity on display in that clip.

[JPW]

tapped her brakes, forcing the car to veer left - to her credit, she released the brakes, steered into the skid, and straightened out

At the risk of exhibiting my mis-knowledge (but for Porcupine to educate me) - I'd object to the word "forcing". She slammed on the brakes and turned the steering wheel to the left. Slam on the brakes and keep the wheel straight - you may slide, but you won't rotate the car. But, yes, steering into the skid is a good thing.

I've had an automatic AWD (plus ABS) for four years now and I'm still figuring out how the thing acts in bad weather as opposed to the old front wheel drive, four banger, stick shifts that I drove for most of my life. Now inspired to go learn how to really drive it (or at least find an empty parking lot and have some fun worthy of a newly licensed 16 year old).

[porcupine]

Come *on*. Nobody is going to take the bait?!

Oh, now I get it: use of the female pronoun.  You think I haven't heard "women driver" jokes before?    Boy could I tell some stories.

holy cow there is an amazing amount of stupidity on display in that clip.

Especially the guy who stands there right in the middle of the one narrow remaining escape path.  "Hey, over here!  Hit ME hit ME!"  Dumbass.  Very lucky dumbass.

jpw, more tomorrow...

[DonRocks]

At the risk of exhibiting my mis-knowledge (but for Porcupine to educate me) - I'd object to the word "forcing". She slammed on the brakes and turned the steering wheel to the left. Slam on the brakes and keep the wheel straight - you may slide, but you won't rotate the car. But, yes, steering into the skid is a good thing.

I've had an automatic AWD (plus ABS) for four years now and I'm still figuring out how the thing acts in bad weather as opposed to the old front wheel drive, four banger, stick shifts that I drove for most of my life. Now inspired to go learn how to really drive it (or at least find an empty parking lot and have some fun worthy of a newly licensed 16 year old).

I'm not convinced she "slammed" the brakes - a brake-tap can cause friction (a force, or, probably more accurately, a counter-force) to "force" a car to rotate left if the left tires are on (relatively) dry pavement, and the right tires are on icier pavement. I'm certain you can picture this.

Velocity (not a force - a state of existence) coupled with inertia (the result of acceleration (a force) without friction (a counter-force) - just ask Isaac "Fig" Newton) is what carried the car into its ultimate demise.

Not bad, Rocks, not bad.  Now the question is do you have the driving skills to match your knowledge?  :-)   I, however, am a bear of very little brain.  What bait?

I answer all questions based on the prowess of the questioner.

If 95% of the population asked me, "Do you know how to fight?", my response would be, "Yes, and I could probably kick your ass. What of it?"

If a black-belt asked me, "Do you know how to fight?" I'd say, simply, "No."

So ... no.

Oh, now I get it: use of the female pronoun.  You think I haven't heard "women driver" jokes before?    Boy could I tell some stories.

And you know very well that if I meant it, I wouldn't have said it. But honestly, I'm surprised no hens pecked at my ankles. Okay! Okay! I'm kidding again!

God, this is like one of those things where, 50 years from now, someone will see it and think I'm a misogynist, and all this work I've done will be for nought. So, hey, if it's later than 2063 and I'm part of a coral reef somewhere in the (formerly) icy north-Atlantic ... I'm *kidding!*

[ScotteeM]

I'm just glad we changed our Cityzen reservation from tonight to tomorrow night. Supposed to be warmer and clear tomorrow, so I hope all the ice will melt and moisture dry up enough for safe driving after dark.

[porcupine]

At the risk of exhibiting my mis-knowledge (but for Porcupine to educate me) - I'd object to the word "forcing". She slammed on the brakes and turned the steering wheel to the left. Slam on the brakes and keep the wheel straight - you may slide, but you won't rotate the car. But, yes, steering into the skid is a good thing.

I've had an automatic AWD (plus ABS) for four years now and I'm still figuring out how the thing acts in bad weather as opposed to the old front wheel drive, four banger, stick shifts that I drove for most of my life. Now inspired to go learn how to really drive it (or at least find an empty parking lot and have some fun worthy of a newly licensed 16 year old).

Gads, where to start....  I used to stand in front of a room full of people and lecture about this.  But I want to keep it short and general here.

A sliding tire has no traction.  If the wheels are locked, or if the tires have very little or no grip, nothing you do with the steering wheel will cause the car to change direction.  A tire has to be rolling in order to change direction.

The problem with swerve-to-avoid maneuvers is that the given input overwhelms the tires' ability to do work.  The tires can give 100% of their available traction for slowing or 100% for steering, but not both at the same time.  If you want to bring a car to a stop as quickly as possible, you need 100% of that traction for braking...so you'd better not turn the wheel at all, or the car will slide.  If you want to steer abruptly in another direction, the tires will need 100% of their traction to turn the car, so you'd better not get on the brakes, or the car will slide.

The correct sequence for swerve-to-avoid is to get on the brakes enough to slow the car - and in an extremely low-traction situation, that's going to be very little brake pressure - then ease off the brakes as you gently turn the wheel.  If you need to steer a lot, you had better be off the brakes altogether before turning the steering wheel.  Untrained drivers will try to do too much of both at once and the car will slide as a result.

Somewhere past the halfway point of the video you'll see a vehicle go through that schlomozzle at relatively high speed.  I can tell you how he she managed it: no brakes and very little steering input.

The correct sequence for swerve-to-avoid is: on the brakes quickly as much as you can without locking the wheels, LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO*, ease off the brakes as you turn the steering wheel as much as you need to but no more, straighten the wheel as you pass the obstacle and ease back onto the throttle.

This is fairly easy to teach in dry conditions, and takes only a little practice to become fairly proficient.  In wet or snowy or icy conditions, it's extremely difficult, because adrenaline gets in the way.  Some little voice in you is screaming OH MY GOD I"M GONNA CRASH just when the situation requires very delicate, gentle muscle movements.  Adrenaline and fine motor [ha!] control do not co-exist without a lot of practice.  You have to acclimate to high-stress situations in order not to over-react.

I've done some accident reconstruction in my time.  It's rare that a single driver error causes a wreck; usually there is a series of errors.  Most (but not all) of the wrecks in the video were started by people driving too fast for the conditions. Some of those could have been avoided by a trained driver, but most of the drivers simply over-reacted.

*more on target fixation later.

Happy to write more about this later if people are interested; out of time for now.

[thistle]

Porcupine, thanks for the driving tips, & I agree about adrenaline thwarting your best efforts to stay in control. I've been in a couple of accidents (t- boned by someone else) & it's amazing how time simultaneously freezes & then, 'boom'! It's over (before you can even react).

How about this one? http://annandale.patch.com/groups/around-town/p/large-sink-hole-in-annandale-shuts-down-hummer-road

It's like your worst nightmare.

[porcupine]

1. target fixation: the tendency to focus intently on something fascinating

2. eye-hand coordination: the process by which visual inputs guide hand motions

In driving this means

1. don't become fascinated by the sudden appearance of something you'd rather not hit, like the child running into the street in front of your car

2. you're going to steer towards the thing you're looking at

Simple to understand, simple to execute, but it takes presence of mind.  If you haven't practiced it, your instinct is going be to stare at the out-of-place thing (the car running a red light), and eye-hand coordination will cause you to steer right into it.

Basic vehicle operation is almost instinctual: press the skinny pedal, the car goes.  Press the fat pedal, the car stops.  Turn the big round thing, the car turns.  But actual driving is anything but instinctual.  Your instincts will cause you to focus on the very thing you're trying to avoid driving into, and unless you actively look to an escape path, eye-hand coordination will cause you to hit that thing.

Ever see a set of skid marks go straight into something like a mail box or a tree?  Target fixation.  Look around next time you see something like that; bet you'll find a clear escape path that driver could have taken, if only he'd had the presence of mind.

Basic tenet of driving, from accident avoidance to motor racing: look where you want the car to go.

This is important stuff.  Every time you get behind the wheel you risk killing someone: yourself, your passengers, other drivers, pedestrians.  Untrained drivers are a serious threat to life and limb.  If you've never taken a course beyond what you needed to get your license, you're an untrained driver.

A number of car clubs and organizations offer one day classes like the one I linked to in post #7.  Buy yourself a Christmas present.  You'll be surprised how much fun it is, and you'll be a safer driver afterwards.

This info is now probably five years out of date, but still makes a point: my former employer, BSR, offered free accident avoidance courses for teenagers attending Jefferson County High School.  Over the years they compared accident statistics of those who took the course against the control group of all the students who did not take the course.  They found that those from the control group were more then twice as likely to be involved in accidents.

[zoramargolis]

You ROCK, Elizabeth!