Vegans vs. Omnivores

[Alliumentalist]

Chef Smith really made our night by doing a vegan menu for my girlfriend (very tough emotionally for a chef to do)

Tough emotionally?

Any chef who's inextricably involved with his meat products - especially on an emotional level - could stand to grow a little bit! (And maybe see Dr. Phil.) The awesome challenge involved with creating vegan-only menus is an adventure every chef should experience. Does wonders for your creativity.

Anyway, from what I've seen, that's what chefs live for - to puff up and perform when the stakes are even the least bit high-pressure. It makes the endless hours on your feet under fluorescent lights a little more bearable.

[Nadya]

Luckily, we do not have to make educated or less so guesses about what it is that chefs live for, or what their true feelings are about having to prepare a vegan menu. Luckily, there is quite a number of living, breathing chefs reading this board. Why not inquire how they feel about vegans? if anyone actually dares to speak their mind.

[zoramargolis]

When your cooking pallette, your spectrum of colors, the tools with which you have developed your skill and talent over many years consists in large measure of meat stocks, dairy products, eggs and meats, you better believe it is stressful to come up with a series of innovative and delicious dishes that contain none of them.

We've had a lengthy discussion before, involving a vegetarian's wish for more fabulous and varied options at the restaurants of his choice. To my way of thinking, it is akin to expecting a virtuoso celliist to pick up a violin and play Paganini. To an outsider it looks like it should be no problem--it's just a smaller version of the instrument that the virtuoso always plays. Yes it has four strings and is played with a bow, darling, but that is where the similarity ends. Throw that cellist with a violin in front of a demanding audience who have paid big bucks for their tickets, and you'd better believe it's going to be an emotional experience for that musician.

[DonRocks]

[There are legitimate points-of-view on both sides of this issue. And I'm not sure there isn't a huge overlap of agreement at the middle ground. Please, let's stay respectful of one another, and please understand I need to delete any posting that doesn't exercise this respect. Be mindful and polite. Thanks! Rocks.]

[Ilaine]

We've had a lengthy discussion before, involving a vegetarian's wish for more fabulous and varied options at the restaurants of his choice.

I missed that discussion, but something I've always wondered about. It seems like some vegetarians are happy not eating animal products, they want their vegetables to be vegetables, and some want to keep eating the foods they've always eaten only made from vegetables.

I say this because I don't comprehend the point of vegetables made to imitate meat, the most incomprehensible being stuff like tofu hot dogs, tofurkey, and vegetable burgers, somehow treated or coated with yeast hydrolyzed or something like that to sort of remind one of the taste of meat.

This is not intended as an insult to anybody, I just wish someone who actually likes this stuff would explain the attractiveness of the concept. (I mean, is there a reason that seitan is pronounced like "satan"?)

My guess is that there are people who want to eat what they used to eat, only made from vegetables, not meat? Is it nostalgia?

Vegetables and grains and fruit and nuts are glorious things in and of themselves, and I don't believe any good cook, chef or not, would have difficulty making many dishes made only these things only. There are so many good vegetarian recipes, just don't use gelatin, cheese, milk, eggs, or honey for vegans, right?

(Although I did know one vegan guy who wanted his vegan wife to make his mom's specialty just like his mother made it only vegan, but that's not a food issue, it's something else, right?)

[Waitman]

When your cooking pallette, your spectrum of colors, the tools with which you have developed your skill and talent over many years consists in large measure of meat stocks, dairy products, eggs and meats, you better believe it is stressful to come up with a series of innovative and delicious dishes that contain none of them.

We've had a lengthy discussion before, involving a vegetarian's wish for more fabulous and varied options at the restaurants of his choice. To my way of thinking, it is akin to expecting a virtuoso celliist to pick up a violin and play Paganini. To an outsider it looks like it should be no problem--it's just a smaller version of the instrument that the virtuoso always plays. Yes it has four strings and is played with a bow, darling, but that is where the similarity ends. Throw that cellist with a violin in front of a demanding audience who have paid big bucks for their tickets, and you'd better believe it's going to be an emotional experience for that musician.

But a chef/cellist plays violin music every day, as a matter of course. It is hard to imagine a chef these days that hasn't, out of necessity or curiosity, played in the vegan/vegetarian sandbox a few times. And, being a pro demands certain skills.

I can see a chef being annoyed at this vegan tasting menu request -- especially on a busy night or if there was short notice (and not imply that Chefharpist's g/f committed either of those sins) or it was one of our more high-strung artistes. I can see them being bemused ("silly vegan, you don't know what you're missing!"). I can even see them being taxed -- seven courses withput stock or eggs or honey or etc. could indeed be a bit of a challenge.

But emotionally tough? I noticed that when it was posted, as well. Seems a bit much.

[Heather]

I can even see them being taxed -- seven courses withput stock or eggs or honey or etc. could indeed be a bit of a challenge.

But emotionally tough? I noticed that when it was posted, as well. Seems a bit much.

I would think it would be emotionally tough to pull off something you haven't trained for, and don't encounter very often, and maybe even don't sgree with. Unlike your garden variety (sorry, I had to) ovo-lacto vegetarianism, veganism is not that common.

[Waitman]

Not to pull the plug on a good argument, it's also possible that chefharpist, in the middle of a long-ish post, was a bit imprecise with one phrase -- perhaps he met "stressful" or something of that ilk -- and we're getting all legalistic about it...or, dare I say, emotional about it.

According to his bio, Peter Smith's been cooking 22 years, including culinary school and Everest base camp. I'm betting that he can handle a few courses of vegan without having to call a therapist. That's what pro's do, that's why we like them.

[Josh Radigan]

having actually worked with Peter at Vidalia when I did the cross-town shuffle between Bis and Vidalia, there were Vegan menu requests and never a blink of the eye.

And for the poster who asked about the Tofu-dog and Veggie Burger, its not the taste of said item but what it brings emotionally. Sitting and watching a baseball game and having a tofupup or barbequing and having a veggie burger, its about the involvement. Being a vegetarian for 10 years and vegan for 4 of those years I found that most people were really careful about what was prepared for me when I visisted their homes. Then again I lived in Richmond, where it seems to be embraced a bit more. There used to be a restaurant called The Grace cafe, which was a co-op and all its served was vegetarian and vegan dishes, kind of a Moosewood Cafe of the south

[cgarden]

I just wish someone who actually likes this stuff would explain the attractiveness of the concept.

Also, its a quick and easy way to get some protein. I'm not defending the flavor of tofu-meat (and when I'm looking for a patty-shaped vegetarian item, I usually go for a garden burger rather than an imitation hamburger), but a fake hot dog or sausage will suffice as a 3-minute meal when put on a piece of bread with some ketchup and mustard.

[xdcx]

My guess is that there are people who want to eat what they used to eat, only made from vegetables, not meat? Is it nostalgia?

because most people become vegetarian (and vegan especially) because of moral/ethical reasons and not because they dislike the taste of meat. So why wouldn't they want something that tastes like something they enjoy without the moral issues attached to it? Some people amazing things with fake meat. Locally Vegetable Garden and Yuan Fu do very well. In NYC you've got places like Kate's Joint, Red Bamboo and Vegetarians Paradise 2.

[Nathan Anda]

Our GM turned into a veg head way back in the day because of a bad chicken sandwich from Kings Dominion. He is back to eating meat now.

[demandalicious]

because most people become vegetarian (and vegan especially) because of moral/ethical reasons and not because they dislike the taste of meat. So why wouldn't they want something that tastes like something they enjoy without the moral issues attached to it? Some people amazing things with fake meat. Locally Vegetable Garden and Yuan Fu do very well. In NYC you've got places like Kate's Joint, Red Bamboo and Vegetarians Paradise 2.

What about going veg for health reasons? As a person who has been flirting with the idea of going veg for a while, I wonder how much of a role health benefits play when other people have made the leap.

As for fake meat, it's only worth my time when it's done well (i.e. Vegetable Garden - as mentioned above - or in the veggie/TVP tacos at Asylum ) It is my understanding that soy-based meatesque products are processed, genetically modified and are more often than not, served fried as to mimic the texture of meat - a preparation which defeats the purpose of a lowfat, vegetable-based diet. Right? Am I missing something here?

[bookluvingbabe]

What about going veg for health reasons? As a person who has been flirting with the idea of going veg for a while, I wonder how much of a role health benefits play when other people have made the leap.

As for fake meat, it's only worth my time when it's done well (i.e. Vegetable Garden - as mentioned above - or in the veggie/TVP tacos at Asylum ) It is my understanding that soy-based meatesque products are processed, genetically modified and are more often than not, served fried as to mimic the texture of meat - a preparation which defeats the purpose of a lowfat, vegetable-based diet. Right? Am I missing something here?

I went veg for several years after the flight from hell back from Brussels when the only English language reading material I had was the world's most frightening article on mad cow disease. I made exceptions for fish on occasion (I have a food intolerence for peppers which made many veg dishes impossible to eat) and turkey on Thanksgiving. (I think lamb on Easter also received a pass...)

I didn't eat many meat substitutes because I didn't like the taste although I do actually like tofu hot dogs and think seitan is a thing of beauty.

[Joshua Grinnell]

This is not intended as an insult to anybody, I just wish someone who actually likes this stuff would explain the attractiveness of the concept. (I mean, is there a reason that seitan is pronounced like "satan"?)

I couldn't call myself an omnivore if I hadn't tried everything, so I can give one reason for eating tofu dogs. In certain respects (though by no means all) a well-prepared tofu dog can taste better than your average packet of franks that your impoverished Uncle Lou brought to the family picnic. In that case, it's not that you're eating them because they taste "just like" a hot dog and more that you thank god that they don't taste much like a hot dog. Granted, they need a little more mustard and a pickle spear in with the bun to be really good, but that's true for hot dogs in general.

Just to throw a log into the flame war, contrast the vegan lifestyle choice (no one is born a vegan, short of debillitating allergies... to meat?) with the choice to lead the life of a gourmand bon vivant. "I will not eat this, it has meat." "I will not eat this, it was made with French's yellow mustard." One is grounded in a moral choice, the other in an aesthetic choice. If a person is a chef, I assume that they're used to making considerations based on the potential aesthetics of your customers. If you accept that moral beliefs trump artistic ones, then any chef should be prepared to work with a vegan palette. If you believe that art supercedes morality... well, I agree with you, but good luck convincing a vegan that the steak you made is too beautiful to pass up.

[Nadya]

Just to throw a log into the flame war, contrast the vegan lifestyle choice (no one is born a vegan, short of debillitating allergies... to meat?) with the choice to lead the life of a gourmand bon vivant. "I will not eat this, it has meat." "I will not eat this, it was made with French's yellow mustard." One is grounded in a moral choice, the other in an aesthetic choice. If a person is a chef, I assume that they're used to making considerations based on the potential aesthetics of your customers. If you accept that moral beliefs trump artistic ones, then any chef should be prepared to work with a vegan palette. If you believe that art supercedes morality... well, I agree with you, but good luck convincing a vegan that the steak you made is too beautiful to pass up.

What if the choice isn't rooted in an argument of ideology (it has meat!) or aestheticism (it is beautiful!) but the argument of pure pleasure? The joy of sinking your teeth into a juicy steak, a deliciously fatty pork belly, a flavorful lamb roast, a crispy roast chicken? What if your philosophy of food is like mine, the unadulterated, unabashed, unbridled hedonism? I eat them because it tastes so damn good? My personal resistance to vegetarianism or veganism is not that I question their morality (to each their own). It's that their life in food seems joyless. Not completely unlike sleeping with someone because it's a good idea while your corpuscles remain entirely untouched.

The cerebral enjoyment and passion for food is something that all chefs can relate to, and I should think that when you force them to abandon so many delightful tastes, any chef will at least grumble. Yes, a good chef can recreate the sensations of fat, juicy, animal protein through culinary cunning. I suppose. But why, when nature provides its own so well?

[Josh Radigan]

ever picked up a Moosewood Cookbook? Seems as if there is a lot of joy n their cooking and not at all lifeless. After my bad chicken experience thus turning to a veg head, it had nothing to do with moral decsion, and more to do with a health issue. For those who do know me now probably would never see that at one point in my life I weighed over 220 pounds. I have taught myself to eat properly and definetly excercise regularly, but at the time being a vegetarian helped me understand a different culinary world.

[yeuxblu]

... I just wish someone who actually likes this stuff would explain the attractiveness of the concept.

Vegetarian options have really jumped in both availability and quality. I prefer a meat substitute to a hot dog or a corn dog hands down. The texture and the taste is actually more appealing to me than a regular hot dog. Hot dogs (and all the renditions made with them) along with options like soy buffalo wings are less greasy and I find equally tasty. I think its the in-between ground for a number of people who are either minimizing their meat intake and/or looking for another form of protein. Most of the substitutes are fast and easy. For the past 3 years my boyfriend has been eating soy corn dogs with out realizing it was a soy dog until last month when he read the ingredients. Some of the current products are really good others are bad. Its the same with any item picked up at the grocery store or dependent on how the chef/cook prepares it.

The effects on my body are less painful if I eat a soy product or another substitute than certain types of meat, especially heavy fats. This also goes for items like fondue or alfredo sauces. I don't have a delicate stomach but I notice a difference in how my body reacts especially if I have a long run the following day. I love a good steak but do not enjoy frois gras (blasphemy, I know- just remember to sit next to me at the next dinner serving it).

I disagree that there is a joyless attitude amongst vegetarians. The friend who started my year long vegetarian span introduced me to some of the bests restaurants and wines I'd ever experienced. He was so thoughtful about food, presentation and enjoying the moment that you couldn't help but enjoy the passion in food.

My time as a vegetarian was not for moral or ethical reasons. It was more of an experiment to try different foods and a different approach to it. I wanted to think about why I chose to eat meat rather than just eating it since everyone else did. My stint as a vegetarian altered both my meat eating habits and the way I look at food. For me it was a very pleasurable experience.

The reason I stopped was I had a craving for red meat that did not stop and I couldn't pinpoint a supplement that gave me whatever nutrient I was missing. You can't really claim to be a vegetarian and still eat a steak on occasion.

Besides, it would be boring if we all enjoyed the same foods. (Wow that was long winded of me.)

[ol_ironstomach]

I'm a little surprised that anybody would be puzzled at the enjoyment of vegetarian cuisine (as distinct from vegetarianism itself). There's some great eats out there, and despite being a voracious carnivore, I'm more-or-less just as thrilled by a great platter of delicious meatless Ethiopian or Indian dishes.

That's not to say that I haven't run across a lot of (young) vegetarians with what I percieve to be a high tolerance for awfully bland food. People who only know the most common, pathetic, useless form of tofu...and have convinced themselves that they like it. People who've never had an actually good falafel. But that's my selfish opinion of an individual's palate, not vegetarian food in general, and it's no more sad than seeing scores of middle-Americans for whom dining out means McDonald's, and the frontiers of exotic foreign food reach no farther than the neighborhood pseudo-Chinese takeout.

On the matter of mock meats, two obvious benefits spring to mind. First, while mock meat rarely tastes like meat, it often provides a crudely similar texture, which can be a very satisfying sensation by itself (corollary: haven't you ever disliked a real meat dish with a lousy texture?) Compare Quorn with other mock-chicken products for one. Or seitan with other mock-beef items. Second, don't overlook the social aspects of including vegetarians in the same food activities as non-vegetarians. Sure, there's probably something that tastes better than a meatless hotdog, but nobody wants to be banished to the chemically-heated pabulum corner of a picnic when they could be roasting a dog and eating it on a bun like the other kids. Unfortunately for them, science still has a long, long way to go before there will be a satisfying meatless equivalent to a pig roast.

Finally (have I mentioned this before?) years ago, a friend of mine devised a theory that nearly every recipe in the Moosewood Cookbook contains one pointless ingredient which, if omitted, makes the dish better. The trick is in figuring out which one...

[Scott Johnston]

I was a vegan for about a year and a half...purely for health reasons. By limiting a lot of food groups, I opened myself up to many more. I learned about many grains and veggies i never had tried before. I started to eat chinese and found sunflower. In short I am a better person, cook, and healthier from the experience. I choose to not limit myself, rather see the glass as half full and explored the wide side. We all can learn from being vegan for a while, as we can by exploring any other cusine.

[Antonio Burrell]

As a chef, I can tell you that it is true, any chance to "showoff" abit is fun. Oftentimes we become absorbed in the routine of daily menu prep, and special request give us a chance to stretch abit. I personally love the oportunity to pull some different stuff out and try some things I wouldn't normally cook simple because you never want to dedicate to many slots to those kinds of items. I know many of my collegues, with ample warning, would willingly meet any dietary constraints. That said, the vegan/ veg who shows up at the steakhouse and DEMANDS that you do something for them at 9:00pm on Saturday night.......

edited to add: I know that today, I called a reservation personally to ask if they would be interested in a veg tasting menu, because they had noted in their res that they were vegetarians. And this is not an isolated incident. I'll happily go off menu for anyone who request it, it really is fairly fun

[zoramargolis]

Vegetarian options have really jumped in both availability and quality. I prefer a meat substitute to a hot dog or a corn dog hands down. The texture and the taste is actually more appealing to me than a regular hot dog. Hot dogs (and all the renditions made with them) along with options like soy buffalo wings are less greasy and I find equally tasty. I think its the in-between ground for a number of people who are either minimizing their meat intake and/or looking for another form of protein. Most of the substitutes are fast and easy. For the past 3 years my boyfriend has been eating soy corn dogs with out realizing it was a soy dog until last month when he read the ingredients. Some of the current products are really good others are bad. Its the same with any item picked up at the grocery store or dependent on how the chef/cook prepares it.

You might take a gander at _The Omnivore's Dilemma_ by Michael Pollan, which is a brilliant look at the current state of food production and consumption in the U.S. I haven't yet found a manufactured soy or meat substitute product that I considered palatable--and my daughter is a vegetarian, so I have explored all manner of protein sources. But what Pollan says about the reality of these manufactured products is a real eye-opener. Anyone who thinks they are eating healthier food when they eat tofu-dogs or to-furky is deluding themselves.

[smokey]

Luckily, we do not have to make educated or less so guesses about what it is that chefs live for, or what their true feelings are about having to prepare a vegan menu. Luckily, there is quite a number of living, breathing chefs reading this board. Why not inquire how they feel about vegans?

The cerebral enjoyment and passion for food is something that all chefs can relate to, and I should think that when you force them to abandon so many delightful tastes, any chef will at least grumble.

[cgarden]

Anyone who thinks they are eating healthier food when they eat tofu-dogs or to-furky is deluding themselves.

How so? The ingredients in, for example, tofu pups, seem relatively innocuous. Are pesticides the problem? (Now, I suppose I could get the answer to this question by reading the book you suggested...)

[demandalicious]

How so? The ingredients in, for example, tofu pups, seem relatively innocuous. Are pesticides the problem? (Now, I suppose I could get the answer to this question by reading the book you suggested...)

Have you ever heard of Monsanto?

[Josh Radigan]

agricultural company provides...seed i believe.

[DC in DC]

How so? The ingredients in, for example, tofu pups, seem relatively innocuous. Are pesticides the problem? (Now, I suppose I could get the answer to this question by reading the book you suggested...)

Out of curiosity, I googled "tofu dog" and got this information:

"Tofu Dogs

East meets West. Made with tofu and vegetable protein, this is the original Yves wiener. Low in fat and a good source of protein, Tofu Dogs are still one of our best sellers.

Ingredients:

Water, isolated soy protein, vital wheat gluten, tofu (water, soybeans, magnesium chloride), yeast extract, salt, wheat starch, organic evaporated cane juice, expeller pressed canola oil, spices, carrageenan (from seaweed), natural liquid smoke, paprika, beet root powder, wheat germ, vitamin B1 (thiamine hydrochloride), vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin), pantothenic acid (calcium pantothenate), iron (ferric orthophosphate), zinc (zinc oxide), magnesium (dimagnesium phosphate), potassium (dipotassium phosphate)."

http://www.yvesveggie.com/products_details...e=Veggie%20Dogs

I know nothing about this subject, but as a layperson, it makes sense to me that if an average pork hotdog is super processed to get the desired shape and consistency, the average tofudog may require the same processing as well.

[cgarden]

Have you ever heard of Monsanto?

Yes, but I imagine that Monsanto (or ADM, etc.) impacts "real" meat as well as fake meat (for example, through animal feed). I'm not suggesting that fake meat is ideal, but was wondering why it was considered less healthy than real meat. Of course, my premise (and I think others' as well) is that I'm thinking about industrially produced non-meat products with industrially produced meat products (tofu hot dogs to meat hot dogs), and not taking into account either meat or veggies that are produced on small, local farms.

[demandalicious]

I think that it really depends on how you feel about genetically modified, processed foods.

How is eating a "tofu pup" any different than eating a "hamburger" from McDonalds? It's all fake. None of it is really real food, or good for you. It's probably the kind of thing that is fine every once in a while (like a "real" hot dog, for example) but so many people have come to rely on these products as staples in their diets and that is frightening to me, personally.

I'll stick with meats that I can pronounce **.

** Or a vegetarian tasting menu that contains really real vegetables (yum).

[giant shrimp]

What about going veg for health reasons? As a person who has been flirting with the idea of going veg for a while, I wonder how much of a role health benefits play when other people have made the leap.

read nina planck's "real food" and you might start questioning some common assumptions, such as vegetarianism being healthier for you. the reasons for eating meat, or fish, at least occasionally for your health may be more compelling than sticking to fruits, nuts and vegetables. the trick these days is to find foods that haven't been degraded by the big industrial machine that is feeding us. if you aren't a vegetarian for ethical reasons, maybe the dichotomy between meat and non-meat isn't the best way of approaching a healthy diet. butter, cheese unhomogenized and even raw milk, bacon, chocolate and wine can all have a place in a healthy diet, and unfermented soy products maybe should not. that's her view, and while it is still hard these days to arrive at any hard conclusions about what is healthy to eat, going organic seems to be a better guide for getting to where you want to be healthwise than going vegetarian.

[yeuxblu]

But what Pollan says about the reality of these manufactured products is a real eye-opener. Anyone who thinks they are eating healthier food when they eat tofu-dogs or to-furky is deluding themselves.

I just said less greasy. Nothing about being any healthier or less healthy. Although I do think comparing manufactured foods like the average soy dog to the average hot dog, the same for a tofutti cutie compared to an ice cream sandwich, when comparing fats and cholesterol would be a "healthier than" options. I imagine both would bomb when it comes to sodium content. This is all like comparing low fat fritos to regular fritos. Both are crap but a lot of people still eat them.

What I was trying to address some of the reasons I liked about "meat substitutes", besides the name .

I think the statement would be better put as "anyone who thinks they are eating healthier food when eating manufactured food is deluding themselves."

[zoramargolis]

while it is still hard these days to arrive at any hard conclusions about what is healthy to eat, going organic seems to be a better guide for getting to where you want to be healthwise than going vegetarian.

Maybe, more specifically local, small scale. As we've just seen with the recent spinach kerfuffle, industrial organic food is no panacea.

[giant shrimp]

Maybe, more specifically local, small scale. As we've just seen with the recent spinach kerfuffle, industrial organic food is no panacea.

yes, i am sure that nina planck will tell you that one of the best places to procure your vegetables is from her mother's tent at the dupont farmers market (with the emphasis on small and local, since there are times when it is impractical to be 100% organic).