jayandstacey

I don't know. The argument has been that the lower density is a contributing factor, but not the only factor. So higher density might encourage a quality deli to emerge - but as you point out, doesn't guarantee it. And the point being made in this thread is that a deli uniquely requires foot traffic due to the higher operating cost and limited appeals. To summarize: a Pho or ethiopian place can better survive on a smaller local core population, and may actually get car traffic - you can't pick up Pho or Ethiopian food in Giant. You can get deli meats in Giant - not the same mind you, but that's been the whole point all along - when people hop in their cars, they're thinking of destination food, or drive through McDonalds - driving to a deli just doesn't happen. So it is more about how the population moves and conducts business. And DC's height restriction contributes to that, as do other factors. As for Parkway and the others being average... I can only guess they found a way to be average and still profitable. Which may partly be due to a longtime lack of serious competition. Like a small town where all 3 gas stations keep their prices up...there's a somewhat captive audience and no competitive pressure to make them better. Which, of course, is due to the shortness of buildings

That or a fancier take on the traditional jewish deli, like a place that serves a rueben reduction, or maybe has pan-asian influences. Go figure there's such a place near lake minnetonka! But I agree, it would need something to allow it to make some money at breakfast and dinner too - which probably makes it more of a diner than a deli in the strictest sense. Am I the only one who's mouth is watering for a good rueben right now?

The cause and effect was pretty straightforward: There are fewer successful Jewish Deli's in DC because there isn't demand. People showed how, in a few different ways, that lack of demand was due to the lower population density. And it is correctly pointed out that one reason for that lowered density is the building height restriction. You may not agree with the conclusion, but there isn't a flaw in the structure of the logic. To follow your houston analogy... NY can go up, but not out. Houston can go up AND out, so it will have a lower average density. DC can go neither up (very far) or out. Therefore, NY will be very dense. DC will only be a certain density and that's fixed. Houston may have a dense core but will move out and thus be , on average, not as dense even as DC (though it will have small pockets with much higher density.) Tall buildinggs alone don't create the overall density, it is the tall buildings plus being locked to a certain size (like manhattan) So if I were opening a Jewish deli, I might look at the dense portions of Houston... But of course I'd also look at the local demographics and a bunch of other patterns before investing - and houston being a much newer city, I'm not sure the demos would work even if the density does. In DC, I think you could make a strong argument that all those 'right' demos exist, at least in pockets of the city/suburbs. But it is still a relatively lower-density area that is car dependant, not walking or public transportation the way NY is. We've pointed out the importance of that situation for the success of a deli, and how DC doesn't have that - and you could say that's in part due to the building restriction. There are of course other reasons, including the relative transience, the religious makeup, the age of DC residents and other elements that contribute to a low demand for such a place. But high density (not just relative high density, like DC vs Houston) and a population taking care of life's necessities from the sidewalk, not the car, seems to be one of the keys to the success of such a venture. And my vote is for Honolulu for the better Alpine skiiing: http://www.hawaiisnowskiclub.com/

Which dovetails with what I've been saying - in fact we've all been saying the same thing, just from different angles. I think DC just isn't set up for a 'traditional' deli, any more than Manhattan is set up for a Costco. (and before you launch the scuds, yes, I see there's a Costco in Manhattan )

Agreed. And to that end, I suspect the few survivors, even in NYC are ones that either are established and small enough to not be a big loss, even if they are losing money OR are pulling in tourist dollars, like the famous NYC ones. I therefore think the only chance for success of such a venture, around here, is to take a venture that's successful on other terms and kind of 'slide' the clientel into the deli mode. Unfortunately, I don't think the end result would ever be considered a "traditional jewish deli" but it could offer a decent alternative and still turn a profit. I'm thinking of a place like Royal Bagel Bakery in Germantown, MD, which does a few bakery things pretty well and has the 'attitude' of NY deli yet the young/family clientel of a sustainable business. if they could expand their table service and hot food offerings, they could be on to something. They are 1/2 way there with knishes, bialys, crumbbuns and the like. I also think that as there are more of the "town center" type neighborhoods (dulles town center, rockville, etc) where you have mixed zoning even in same building (restaurant below, tenants above) you might see the deli concept return. Of course, right now those places are "hot" and the rents are probably too high. But that will eventually level off and the populations will be more 'normal' (not 20 something hipsters) and the deli might thrive.

I'm no expert at demographics or business plans - but it would seem a jewish deli would have an especially hard time here for a number of unique reasons: 1. To many people around here, "deli" means the counter in the cornder of the Giant Food Store where you buy a pound of shaved ham. So if they're thinking of buying meats, they go to the store. If they are thinking of a meal, they aren't thinking of a deli. 2. To that end, a NY deli relies much on foot traffic. In NY, a place can have 1/2 million people within walking distance. With the zoning laws around here, you're lucky to have 1/2 dozen, and 1/2 of them have probably never used their neighborhood sidewalks. Not saying its like that everywhere, just most places. This is a car city, and deli's are foot places. 3. Lastly, its a bit of a nostalgia play, and new places have a really hard time making 'nostalgia' their business/marketing plan. Not saying it isn't possible, just a steeper uphill climb. I think there are a few success stories in lower Montgomery County as that area has an established and dense population, more approximating NY. But i wouldn't want to open a new place on that alone.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see if the new layout is actually bad, or if we're so used to the old one that it will seem OK once our eyes get used to it. It certainly doesn't seem like an improvement.

No where am I seeing mention of two things: 1. Mr Wood already pledged the $500K for a particlar project and now is threatening to withdraw the pledge. When I was growing up, the non-PC term for that was "indian giving" and was on a par with being a snitch - which is to say, about as low as one can go. Is no questioning his basic character? A stand up person might say "I may not give again in the future" but does not renig on promises. 2. Is Mr Wood getting a tax deduction from this? If so, IRS rules are pretty clear about quid pro quo situations, and while the world is full of them, they usually aren't on paper and held out as threats. The IRS should disallow any tax credit for the donation - but only AFTER it was made, and once the tax return (of Mr Wood or the Harris beef co, whichever made the donation) is filed.

I agree. That would seem to be the trick for online advertising, where getting you to 'click' makes them the money. But in print - isn't the whole idea to sell the MOST copies? isn't that what drives ads? Maybe not anymore. Maybe studies of 'drift' of the eyes into the ads help sell ads, or sell ads for more $$$. Or maybe this is a continuum of a blur between print and online - which assumes some grand plan, and I think that assumes too much. Either way, the print version has grown increasingly annoying in proportion to the increasing annoyingness of the online version. They could go a long way to making the new incarnation more readable by simply making the masthead at the beginning of each editorial section (the column name) simply bigger. Same design, but bigger. The type of the articles is actually slightly bigger - but the quiet entrance into the column makes it seem smaller, and even lost in the ads. Lesson - Never let a committee with many advanced studies degrees do what a 10 year old could figure out in 5 minutes. In fairness, the supplement was fairly well 'set off' from the rest in type face and style, and had a very clear (though small) disclaimer at the end. And I don't believe this is something entirely new - haven't there been 'paid reviews' alongside the real ones in the past? Or am I thinking of Washingtonians' "100 best" lists?

Mainly that I dislike it, especially in the "picnic table" format. I think it can work somewhat in a few instances: 1. Where the clientel is VERY homogenous, like in a school cafeteria, a cruise ship or a jail 2. Where it is part of an established theme, like in a PA dutch place, a german beer hall, a japanese hibachi place, a texas roadhouse or...a jail. I also think that if a place REALLY wants communal space, then a counter like you see in diners is the way to do this - as it picks up community through the "commonness" of the kitchen or whatever the counter faces. And I think more high-end places could put a high (bar stool height) counter facing the kitchen (with a glass wall if the noise is too high) and let people be semi-communal while getting a kitchen 'show'. A well-thought out place should be able to handle larger groups by pushing tables around, or simply set aside a room for that. It shouldn't cater to large groups then make small ones suffer by sitting together. One of my worst dining experiences was years ago at (I think it was called) the Evans Farm Inn in McLean, VA. I was expecting (and paying) for a decent meal with my girlfriend. I sat next to some guy. Maybe I should have expected more of a 'farm' arrangement. Ultimately I didn't really read the request closely, and realize that for the thesis the OP is seeking professional input of a different sort.

Shopper's Food Whorehouse carries (or carried) Hard Times spice mix. I get the Cincinnati and make "my own".

This seems like a simple economics discussion - I hadn't heard of Mr. Pollan. For the agribusinesses that are adaptable, any shift in demand (say, to those promoted by Mr. Pollan) would also present an opportunity to gain marketshare - from those companies that are NOT adaptable. Those companies that cannot adapt will do a simple cost/benefit analysis and decide to spend money to fight the tide. And the money they spend may become shockingly large - as they've decided that no amount of money can make them adapt, and, once "in for a dime, in for a dollar" when fighting for thier livelihood. Those companies that can adapt are conversely planning and acting to take advantage of such shifts. There can be success there, as evidenced by Whole Foods. And note that the scale of that success will be directly proportional to the scale of the shift in demand. So if Mr. Pollan remains only a small blip, then the adaptable company will only see small gains (on their small investment). If the demand shift becomes wholesale, the adaptable companies will see wholesale shifts in their business, eventually guiding their ship to sail on very different seas. So it is telling to see how each company approaches such situations. And it is very easy to spot which companies will be around for the long haul should a shift occur.

Deep Creek; Grantsville Another vote for Brenda's in DCL - it isn't fine dining, but the stuff tastes fresh. The room is kid friendly while having a nice view of the lake. We stopped by in the summer and were pleasantly surprised. The Penn Alps didn't seem worth the drive or money. It was just tired, mass produced stuff. Made me wonder how big the troughs were in the kitchen. Englander's was interesting to say the least, a real "roadfood" kind of place. I had never tried buckwheat pancakes before so have no frame of reference. They were good, big, wet, tangy things that were fine but not something I'd go out of my way for. As with any such places, sometimes the enjoyment is beyond the food - and as we sat at the counter, we talked with an older gentleman who came in for some coffee and company.

I'll be going there too, for the Springsteen show in late Nov. Sadly I have general admission floor tickets, which means my 'seat' (standing area) quality is directly proportional to my time commitment to stake out a spot before the show. So no dinner out for me. But I'll be darned hungry when its over at 11:30pm - any suggestions?

OK, I really couldn't wait to go back, so tonight my wife and I went sans progeny. The harissa dip is, I swear, a paste form of the red peppers you might sprinkle on pizza. Took me two trips to place the flavor, and I doubt they're MADE from dried pepper flakes - but the net flavor and heat level is like those flakes. Loved it, and glad to see (above) that I could buy it for home should I choose. We ate light. We ordered: Zucchini Fritters: Delightful golfball-sized zucchini and cheese fritters that might appear over-cooked on the outside but are smooth, creamy and firm inside with only a thin, crisy shell. These can be cut with a knife without collapsing, which is good because you'll need to. The Fritters come with a Tzitziki sauce that I swear has Feta secretly mixed in. The result is a tangy almost tart sauce, which in some cases I might not like but against the very calm fritters, and in moderation, makes a great combo. Scallops Risotto: 3 large scallops over mushroom and saffron risotto - very nice. The risotto was a little gummy for my taste and the scallops a little firm (overcooked?) - but maybe I'm just used to thinner risotto and more buttery scallops. The taste was GREAT and we practically inhaled this. Baklava: Enough to share, very fresh tasting. The iced tea was also really fresh and kept coming (neither is a given, both are important to me) and we simply had a wonderful, though short, time. We might hit the Sunday Brunch tomorrow. And no, I didn't happen to notice if the men's room door was facing the other way. I'll check next time.

My corollary rule: Own these: https://www.tstshop.co.uk/images/playing-cards.jpg

I've spent the last few years living my rule: "Top off the tank every two hours." I'm starting not to like my rule. Thanks for the link; good read.

Are boneless chickens tested in the same manner?

Oddest recommendation I've ever had for a place: Switch the hinges to the other side of the door to the Men's room! Oddly, if you sit at the right chair at the right table, and someone opens the men's room door while the lights are on in the men's room, you get an almost blinding shot in the eye of the light above the sink. This place is VERY dark and the what wouldn't be an issue elsewhere is really a jarring event when your pupils are fully dialated. Moving the hinges would also have the effect of not letting diners see into the men's room. Sure, someone in the mens room could open the door into someone else walking in the hallway - but that risk exists with the hinges on either side. Otherwise, the food, service, atmosphere and overall experience was great. Really, really great. We had our kids with us, and we were served promptly, the noise level was pretty high and the food was well liked - all things I've mentioned before as important to a party with kids. Others have posted the virtues of the various interesting dishes, so I'll focus on what we ordered for the kids: "Cava Mac and Cheese" was really noodles and cheese. A very generous portion might have suffered from too much Kefalograviera cheese sauce but was very smooth and flavorful. It was probably the most unique mac and cheese order we've gotten anywhere and the kids, who aren't adventurous, loved it. "Greek Grilled Cheese" was further off the 'expected' scale and OUTRAGEOUSLY good! It came as 2 or 3 little sandwiches each the diameter of a tennis ball. They were simple - a dense bread/buiscuit with a thick slice of dry, complex Kefalograviera cheese - which is flavorful yet not overpowering. The whole thing is drizzled with honey. So simple, yet nothing like anything I've ever had. Once again, the kids loved it. I fought for nibbles. We can't wait to go back. I might bring a wood chisel and screwdriver just in case - I can swap a door over in about 20 minutes if I have too

Not a real green dress, that's cruel! My mustards: - Corn dog - french's or honey mustard - Hebrew National hot dog - gulden's, sometimes grey poupon - bratwurst - Gulden's - other hot dogs - volume matters, I find other dogs kinda gross and need lots of any mustard to choke em down. - slow cooked corned beef - a kind of "stone" mustard that costs a lot but is perfect and kept just for this reason. - kielbasa - guldens - fondue meats - grey poupon and chinese mustard as dips - egg rolls, spring rolls - chinese mustard - grilled cheese - french's with american cheese, gulden's with swiss or cheddar - pretzel - grey poupon or french's - hamburgers (to include hellburgers) - gulden's - ham sandwiches - boiled ham, or as part of an italian sub - french's. Otherwise Gulden's. - McDonald's french fries - McDonald's hot mustard usually for the McNuggets.

Or are you rolling with the French's? So many mustards, so little time. When you choose, what do YOU choose?

Hellmann's is the wife, Miracle Whip is the mistress. Both have their place and time, but never the twain shall meet.

The plan was to have pork chops stuffed with sausage. Picked these up at the Lancaster Market over the weekend. After an hour of cooking we bailed on these and instead had a quick breakfast for dinner: Scrambled Eggs Pepper Bacon (also from the Lancaster Market) Apple Sauce my wife made last night white toast. It was plan B when there was no plan B. Made chicken soup today for tomorrow night - will reheat and add noodles for tomorrow night. Tonight's pork chops, if edible, may be lunch tomorrow. I'm going through a comfort food phase. I must be excited for fall

That's cool - so I'll apologize for my snide comment that I might get snide comments. Miracle Whip is first and foremost... a Miracle. Velveeta and Liverwurst on white bread would be nothing if it weren't for a smathering of Whip.

Tonight: Large pork chops stuffed with dressing. Bought at the Lancaster Farmer's market in Germantown, MD. I cooked them right but in the wrong pan, so they sat in juices but dried out a bit. Side of big dinner rolls from the same. Side of 1 large cubed zucchini, pan fried in butter with little pieces of 2 slices of Taylor Ham and about 1/4 a red onion. This is my own invention and make whatever snide comment you like - I don't care, I like how it tastes For dessert, an apple picked the day before from Baugher's Orchard in Winchester, MD. Simple, comfort food. Downed with a cold can of Fresca.