jondagle

Yes, utterly, but not "freakin'". Ok, well, I like Buzz fine. Buzz is great, good service, well run (and Tiffany is great too). I like their pastries and cookies on occasion, but their cupcakes are hardly standouts in the area, and some of the items are a bit too sweet or too dense. Regarding the coffee: I should not have forgotten about Buzz. But, only the Ballston Buzz uses Madcap. They told me over a year ago that Alexandria would switch over too, but nothing's happened. Alexandria has always used Illy Coffee, ever since they opened. To switch they probably have to ditch their Illy-provided equipment and perhaps do other training.... Perhaps they don't want the expense or effort. I'm not crazy about Illy--it doesn't compare with what other *real* coffee shops are using. I've had coffee there many times, and its fine. I'd probably not get a pour over with Illy. Pour overs and espresso in Ballston are fine. Not always good, but ok. Now, I was just up to The Coffee Bar, north of Logan Circle on S, today. That place is fantastic. As good as any of the high quality shops in DC. They use a coffee roasted in LA for some reason, but very nice. Just more evidence of the problems in the NoVA coffee scene. A handfull of coffee houses have sprung up in DC over the past year. Meanwhile NoVA has nothing new. At least we have the metro.

Very late in reading this thread. I agree with porcupine: Many places are now equipped to do pour overs--it's become quite trendy. But quite a few aren't up on training on how to correctly prepare a pour over. I think its quite like getting espresso. A shiny expensive GB/5 won't get you a good espresso in the hands of a poor barista. A good barista can do a good shot with good coffee, a strong grinder and a decent espresso machine. Far too many businesses get into coffee perhaps because they think its a profit center or because it's trendy--for whatever reason they're unable to make/maintain a commitment to quality coffee. Incidentally, a shout out to P & C Market on Lincoln Park. They serve and sell Vigilante coffee, locally roasted. Stopped there after the R&R Marathon/Half. (BTW, why ever is this thread in Shopping & Cooking?)

And may I also say, I am utterly embarrassed that i allowed this conversation to have a 1 year break in the middle!

>> IMHO, the NoVA area, still very under served by good coffee, benefits hugely from NS being part of the scene. Soooo TRUE! Its an utter disappointment that I can count the places where one can get PASSABLE espresso inside beltway in VA on one hand, with fingers left over. NSS and Boccato (and not always Boccato). When Boccato opened in Old Town they were making satisfactory to good espresso, but now as Killer ESP, I think there's only one person who knows how to use the fantastic equipment they have. (Barista raining is clearly not a priority there--its hard to know what any priority is there, something's changed every time I go in) It amazes me that Old Town has such a pitiful lack of cafe culture. Grape and Bean serves fine coffee (no espresso), and even Killer ESP does a decent pour over, but where are the cafes? Only Society Fair now offers decent espresso in Alexandria -- and it's still hit or miss. NSS is fantastic. Their wine bar (starting at 5pm, upstairs) is pretty decent as well. They offer a great selection of beers and wines (not always the same upstairs and downstairs), as many coffee-focused cafes are doing these days. But their baked goods and foods (including egg sandwiches) are consistently good. Of course the coffee and espresso are the primary draw for me. The location has been a Counter Culture outlet since it was Murky. I have heard some rumors of CC discouraging their shops to sell other coffees--don't know the truth of it. Meanwhile coffee culture in DC is blooming. There are a handful of respected shops I've never heard of myself before today, thanks to goodeats, over in the Coffee forum. http://www.home-barista.com/cafes/baltimore-washington-dc-coffee-shops-t16657.html

At CCC, I followed the startup, Cho departure, and addition of alcohol to the menu all with interest. Nick is a passionate expert in the world of coffee, but I have to say I didn't associate any major dip in the coffee program with his departure. More recently I've seen some slippage on their nicely prepared cortados though. Maybe I'm missing something. If you want to see slippage, try "Killer ESP" in Old Town. When it opened as a second Bocatto location it was the best espresso in Alexandria. Four months later -- and now -- its undrinkable. A shame because Stumptown was handling the training. Now I see the retail coffee getting older and older... Maybe the pie is fresh.

This discussion is a hazard of the Grape + Bean business model, it seems: they don't fit neatly in categories. When I think of Grape + Bean (OT) it's primarily as a wine bar, with nicely curated retail selections (not a small number). But also I often by my coffee there. G+B is the only place in metro DC that I know of that sells Blue Bottle coffee. The Rosemont location has complicated things even more. That location more of a wine, beer, and gourmet store. They also have coffee service and breads, but as of this writing, no dining menu or on-site wine/beer. I understand that will change in the spring. Regarding coffee by the cup: G+B (both locations) have the Trifecta from Bunn and also do pour overs. Sadly, training and consistency could be improved. This is common in places that are not primarily a coffee house. The only "multi-business" place I know of, where beverage quality is consistently high, is Northside Social: coffee house, food and even a wine bar -- all very well done. They have clear commitment to their coffee program. Possibly also Pound the Hill. I have less experience there, but they might qualify. The other places I trust for coffee/espresso (Peregrine, Filter, Baked and Wired (oops, there's another one), Chinatown, are really trying to do only one thing: coffee. One notable exception is Bolla Coffee on G St NW, near 15th (the address is 655 15th). Bolla serves fresh counter culture coffee, marks the roast date of all the coffees they serve, makes good espresso drinks, and has great soups and sandwiches. But back to G+B: they are the most likely place in Old Town to get a good cup of coffee, but that's not saying much. Even the former Bocatto, now "Killer ESP" is terrible.

@thistle, Most everyone starts their culinary journey at such a place, whether its steaks, wine, beer, scotch, or even coffee. It's never too late to try something new. But then everyone has their preferences and limits. @darkstar965, Thank you. "I feel your pain..." Already thought of your idea, yet here I am not doing it... @goodeats, I don't know why you would say "don't be stuck in the CC world..." Counter Culture sources, selects, and roasts wonderful coffees that cover a wide array of favors. To say CC is "acidic" (your word Goodeats, not DR's) or "light" or "dark" is to say that you have not experienced many of them. I personally do not like Kenyan coffees, which i find acidic. It doesn't matter if they are from CC, Blue Bottle, or Starbucks. CC has done much to improve the coffee experience for consumers, and much to improve the economic situation for growers. Have you noticed that coffee comes from places most people don't have on their vacation list: Columbia, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Ethiopia, Kenya, Indonesia… Sometimes these are considered dangerous places. CC and their sister companies in the quality coffee movement work directly with farmers to bring quality beans to US markets at fair prices. Some would argue that the Folgers, Giant, etc. brand coffees (which generally consist of low quality robusta variety beans, and low grade arabica beans) are a form of economic exploitation. (I'm not necessarily arguing this, just pointing it out) The market system that commoditizes such coffee means very low wages for those producing them. This market is concerned mainly with quantity and price, not flavor and quality. The concept of a commodity is that its all the same anyway. And what a waste to "freeze dry" quality coffee beans anyway! I know well exceptional and good coffee producers such as Blue Bottle (which I visited in Oakland and Brooklyn), Intelligentsia (which I first sampled in about 2000), Stumptown, Novo (Colorado), even Proto and M.E. Swings (local), and MadCap (now available at Baked and Wired, DC's secret location for fantastic coffee/espresso). I've tended to favor CC because in the past they were "more local" than the other craft producers -- on the East Coast, and so the beans travel less distance than from Chicago, Oakland, or Portland. Though NY roasteries from BB and Stumptown have changed that up a bit. I would also say that Starbucks has some good coffee. If you cannot believe this, find a location with a Clover and have one of the Gold Reserve (or something like that) coffees. They are about as good as any I've had from a Clover. Their basic offerings are mostly fair-to-below average. But they best most anywhere else I've had coffee from a chain or diner. SBUX tends to roast dark. That's in part because it covers up flavor defects--darker roasts bring out more smokey flavors, lighter brings out more of the variety and "Terroir". Starbucks is now on the trendy light-roasts, with a line they call "Blonde". I rather like them. Its quite fashionable to bash Starbucks, but they do ok for what they are. Incidentally, they seem to make most of their money (and hence pay most attention) on beverages (and food) other than coffee and espresso. I would be interested in live taste-off of coffees if anyone else is... I would also note that you cannot buy a $4 "cup of coffee" at Starbucks (unless perhaps its a larger size reserve cup from the Clover, or a venti/gigante, maybe). Anything that much is almost certainly a cup of warm-to-hot milk flavored with coffee/espresso and probably something else: peppermint sugar water, caramel, etc. A 12 oz coffee is about $2-$2.50, no? The economics are very different. SBUX doesn't "make" the milk, they have to truck in by crates, in three different versions. There is nothing inherently wrong with those beverages, but let's call it what it is. One is about water and coffee beans, the other is about a pint of milk. What i failed to scratch here is the sad (in my opinion) state of coffee service in restaurants that should do so much better. In another thread someone was looking for espresso in a restaurant. Having had and made good espresso, I can't think of a restaurant where I could recommend it (I don't count NSS as a restaurant). At this point I will thank anyone who has not dozed off doing this much too long post. Ciao!

Damn. Authoring a post (about four paragraphs) when I click the "here" link re: MadCap and -poof- all gone. I'll have to cool off a bit before returning...

Rocks, Wonderful. Exactly what I wanted--to start this discussion. I have followed for years the blog and web site of a coffee guru in Vancouver named Mark Prince. He operates the web sites coffeegeek.com and coffeekid.com, along with the occasional Coffee Geek podcast (on extended hiatus). the coffeegeek site has an extensive forum section which discusses the preparation of coffee and espresso and a whole range of topics. Mark was an advocate of culinary coffee--decrying the shoddy coffee in restaurants--before people around here had even heard of Counter Culture. I'm not familiar with the Grind & Brew (other than googling it). Fresh grind is very important, but so is the quality of the grounds is too. Its often said that the grinder is the most important factor in good coffee: coffee geeks will tell you about conical burr grinders. The importance is that the grinder produce consistent sized grounds without too much friction/heat. If your grounds don't have a consistent size then your will over-extract or under-extract flavors from the coffee, which leads to bad coffee. Would love to continue this discussion here or over a *real* coffee.

Just read @DCDining's 21 Jan upgrade of Northside Social. Good stuff there beyond the coffee and espresso that is a worthy successor to Murky's. The best thing about inside is that it isn't grungy and grimy like Murky and Common Grounds were. Still I think DR's on point with it being a bit cold. Where I take issue is with what appears to be an alarming lack of culinary understanding of coffee. I find this astonishing, but there it was, plain as day. DR asserts that you need "professional equipment" to make good coffee and that Counter Culture beans are "under-roasted." (I cannot believe Nick would let you get away with that!) I will limit my discussion to coffee vs espresso--pressure is generally relevant only for espresso, and there are many, many reasons why home espresso is often not up to par. In coffee circles a common lament is that people who will pay top dollar and expect high quality food, wine, sprits and beer, yet they treat coffee like an afterthought. Ordering coffee after dinner or with brunch is just pro forma. I recall how Eve used to (still?) make press-pot coffee with what I'm sure were pre-ground beans. What is the point?! Most auto-drip machines do very poorly in their primary task--heating water. Indeed Don is right about temperature--about 185-195F is optimal, from memory. You could spend $300 for a Technivorm Moccamaster, but Bunn's Phase Brew line gets to the right temps for about $100 (still not "professional" eq). For an investment of about $16 anyone with a mug and kettle can brew exceptional coffee using "The Clever Dripper" or a pour over filter. (These are available at fine coffee houses throughout the area, including Chinatown Coffee Company, Boccato, and NSS.) Its almost foolproof. Professional equipment, not required. Currently very light roasts--sometimes called "Scandinavian roasts" are all the rage, even at Starbucks with their "Blond" roasts. But this is just a trend. In the higher end coffee world, which I'll call "craft coffee" for lack of a better word, the roast is specifically tailored to the beans--often coming from a single farm or lot, aka Single Origin. "Medium" roasts can optimize the qualities of different coffee varieties. Dark roasts do have a very important outcome: they minimize the underlying taste of the bean and its "terroir" in favor of roasty tastes which come charing the beans. Poor quality coffees can be roasted more darkly to hid imprecations. Sure people can like dark roast coffees, but I wouldn't ask them about coffee anymore than I would ask someone who drinks Budweiser or Coors about beer. I would invite anyone who is even remotely a "foodie" or culinary geek to explore the world of coffee through our area's finer coffee shops. Counter Culture has a tasting lab in DC where they offer cupping on Friday mornings.

Had wonderful dinner during Balt GP at Cinghiale. We ordered a mix of a la cart and the Prezzo Fisso menu. The olive oil the serve, we were told, is from a small producer in Umbria. So fresh tasting--and the dark wheat bread is amzingly light... I personally enjoyed the pepper soup, lobster and chili spaghetti, and a delicious branzino dish. I also tasted the shirt steak, which was spectacular, and the russet potato gnocchi with arrugala pesto, Aldo excellent. Our server provided good recommendations on wine and organized our order at the lowest price for the table, using the Prizzo Fisso options. Gelati sampled were good, with coffee bean and cinimon standing out. The only disappointment was wine service with our second course: out sever failed to check back to take a second wine order, and a previously ordered glass of wine had to be requested after our third course arrived. Also, the more casual area is rather loud when it gets half full. I hate that this makes me sound "old" but restaurants are simply too loud these days. Overall the staff was very accommodating and responsive. I hope to return soon.

Welcome JoshBullis. You're the first person I've welcomed since joining, not long ago myself! We are in Old Town too. Look forward to comparing notes! Have you been out to Old Town's restaurant scene much? JD

Perhaps a little late, but I heard two stories from the authors of Freakonomics which are closely related to the earlier posts. Links below. Food (wine?) for thought. I will be interested when they do this test for beers.... "The latest Freakonomics Radio podcast is called “Do More Expensive Wines Taste Better?” When you take a sip of Cabernet, what are you tasting? The grape? The tannins? The oak barrel? Or the price?" Read on! (or listen-on!) http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/freakonomics-radio-do-more-expensive-wines-taste-better/ http://freakonomicsradio.com/in-vino-veritas-sort-of.html

I have been going to CFH since shortly after it opened. Their food has always been solid and the service never less than fair, and usually good. I hesitate to make any judgement based on service to a bachelorette or bachelor party. More than once I've seen these kind of groups cause headaches for staff and dinners. My father hosted an outing for his out of town staff during a convention at National Harbor (took the boat over). The group totaled 13 people and was setup in the intimate (and a bit dark) downstairs room. Service was very good. Food was very good. CFH also has some very nice cocktail creations on the menu, no doubt to compete with the other restaurant group powerhouse in OT. CFH made it a fine outing and I would recommend CFH for a similar sized group or smaller dinner. Regarding Kibbee Nayee's experience, your I would only suggest that the Neighborhood Restaurant Group properties sometimes seem to overwhelm the management across the board. Since they just opened a new Rustico in Balston they may bey poaching the staff at other places. The bar at Vermillion declined considerably back when the original Vermillion opened. There are a lot of good places around; the problem is finding the exceptional ones. I've had 2 so so experiences at Eve.

I am enjoying the Danish Wintercoat Double Hop 2x IPA and the Bruery's Mischief (Belgian strong ale) which I just had courtesy of Rustico in Old Town. A very delicious Chipotle Pumpkin soup too! Oooo that was good. And now I'm considering what interesting beer to drink later--choosing from a number of interesting ones picked up at Weyerbacher in Easton PA last weekend. Perhaps Titan or maybe Fifteen. Or perhaps I'll join durwoodx and see what he's drinking.

Hello, I'm Jonathan, in Old Town. I've been in the area for about 10 years, and work in government--not "the industry". Although I don't work in a restaurant, I certainly enjoy eating in them! I'm enjoying the ever growing number of good restaurants in the area. I'm a fan of beer pairings, good coffee and espresso, and I frequent Old Town, Arlington and the District. The recent exposition of food trucks is an interesting and tasty development!