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2004 Numanthia Termes


Joe H
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I opened a bottle of this tonight and shared it with several neighbors. On another thread-Schild Estate-there is a discussion about value and the perception of this related to the wine. The Wine Spectator gave the '04 Schild Estate 96 points for its Shiraz. On this thread I noted that we were disappointed with the '05 vintage of this wine-it was very good, but not nearly on the level of the '04.

In Capital Letters: THE '04 NUMANTHIA TERMES IS, PENNY FOR PENNY, ONE OF THE ABSOLUTE BEST WINES I HAVE EVER TASTED!!!!!! For references: Parker gives it 94 points. The "reserve" of this wine (Numanthia Toro) receives 98 points for what amounts to a $55.00 bottle of wine and the "grand reserve" of the '04 receives 100 points (yes, 100!!!!!!) from Parker for the Numanthia Termanthia (which is about $175 a bottle). But the $19.99/bottle (source: Wine Library which has "many" cases in stock at this writing) is awesome!!!!!! I would suggest that this is the '07 version of the Schild Estate from last year: the absolute best red wine of the year!!!!

For anyone reading this: buy this wine by the case! When you get it let it sit for ONE HOUR. Then open it. A phenominal bottle of red wine.

Simply, this is my gift to the board for this year. Serious. It is THAT good.

PS: I have two cases of the '05 Schild Estate Barossa Shiraz. I am willing to trade any or all of this to anyone who has the '04 Numanthia Termes straight up! If you are interested please e-mail me direct. Serious.

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I opened a bottle of this tonight and shared it with several neighbors. On another thread-Schild Estate-there is a discussion about value and the perception of this related to the wine. The Wine Spectator gave the '04 Schild Estate 96 points for its Shiraz. On this thread I noted that we were disappointed with the '05 vintage of this wine-it was very good, but not nearly on the level of the '04.

In Capital Letters: THE '04 NUMANTHIA TERMES IS, PENNY FOR PENNY, ONE OF THE ABSOLUTE BEST WINES I HAVE EVER TASTED!!!!!! For references: Parker gives it 94 points. The "reserve" of this wine (Numanthia Toro) receives 98 points for what amounts to a $55.00 bottle of wine and the "grand reserve" of the '04 receives 100 points (yes, 100!!!!!!) from Parker for the Numanthia Termanthia (which is about $175 a bottle). But the $19.99/bottle (source: Wine Library which has "many" cases in stock at this writing) is awesome!!!!!! I would suggest that this is the '07 version of the Schild Estate from last year: the absolute best red wine of the year!!!!

For anyone reading this: buy this wine by the case! When you get it let it sit for ONE HOUR. Then open it. A phenominal bottle of red wine.

Simply, this is my gift to the board for this year. Serious. It is THAT good.

PS: I have two cases of the '05 Schild Estate Barossa Shiraz. I am willing to trade any or all of this to anyone who has the '04 Numanthia Termes straight up! If you are interested please e-mail me direct. Serious.

Not meant to be construed as negative, but I have never seen anyone so enamored with Parker/WS points in my life.

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Dissenting advice: Avoid this wine.

Cheers,

Rocks.

Let's go for credibility here: I will buy ANY BOTTLE/CASE OF THIS FROM ANYONE WHO HAS BOUGHT IT FOR $19.99 a bottle (+ tax) which is the Wine Library price. Mr. Rocks-Mr. Washingtonian wine critic (!), whatever bottle you have left over I will buy from you, too. If I end up with 10, 15 or 20 cases, so be it. This is a great wine and I am extremely happy to have it and stand by my earlier comments.

Alan 7147 you are right: I should not have mentioned Parker for credibility. My credibility must/will stand on its own.

Regardless, I am in love with what is a great wine: please, all of you who have bought it and feel that they could have done better-e-mail me. I will take every bottle off of your hands!!!

One more comment: I am willing to open a bottle-a case-of what I have this Saturday in Reston for anyone who would like to taste it. Let's find out whether this is a wine that lives up to my hyperbole or, like Don Rockwell who is the Washingtonian wine critic, says should be "avoided." E-mail me privately and I will send you my address. I would also be happy to entertain any reporters or critics from the Washington Post who would like to follow up on this for a possible story: the Washingtonian wine critic's opinion has been challenged! With the public invited to a "taste off!"

I have eleven bottles of '04 Numanthia Termes and will share every single bottle of it (plus what I can buy from others who want to sell their "stash") with those who read this on Saturday. Someone should also e-mail the wine maker at Numanthia and let him know that a neophyte such as myself believes in him and his wine so passionately!!!!

Joe Heflin

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There is all this raving about how wonderful this wine is without one word as to what it tastes like. Spend some words on describing the wine instead of stating Bob's points. That would be more informative to folks that read this board.

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E-mail me and come on over on Saturday and have a taste yourself-you can use your own words to describe it on here. I actually haven't "stated... (any of) Parker's points" other than mentioning what his ratings were for this winery's '04 red wines. I have several bottles of the other wines he mentioned but I have not tasted them yet and probably will not, at least for several years. But for me the '04 Termes is a remarkable wine for the price and I think enough of it to let others post their own opinions after tasting it. Rockwell, obviously, disagrees.

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E-mail me and come on over on Saturday and have a taste yourself-you can use your own words to describe it on here.

mdt has an excellent point. So far, about the only incontrovertible information provided here about this wine is that it's an '04, it's red, and it's packaged in bottles. Only slightly less concrete are that it can be purchased in at least one store for $20, and has both notable supporters and detractors. Nowhere have you even mentioned what grapes it's made from, although I'm guessing that can be found on the internet.

You've been checking in on this thread regularly for the last three hours...would it be such a burden to actually share a little sensory description? C'mon Joe, sell this thing!

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Are there variations in soil between the Numanthia bottlings? Are those variations evident in the wines? What about elevage? What are some of the analogues (soil, site, cepage) for Numanthia, and what does Numanthia's approach say about those analogies?

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There is all this raving about how wonderful this wine is without one word as to what it tastes like. Spend some words on describing the wine instead of stating Bob's points. That would be more informative to folks that read this board.
I was about to post a similar comment. I pay absolutely no attention to Parker's "points" - or anyone else's for that matter. What did it taste like? What kind of food would it match with? Some adjectives please. :o
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I was about to post a similar comment. I pay absolutely no attention to Parker's "points" - or anyone else's for that matter. What did it taste like? What kind of food would it match with? Some adjectives please. :o
I give this post 88 points. If it had more exclamation points or naughty words, it might've gotten a 91.
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Some info on this wine. Most other info I could find was for the "reserve" wine that Joe mentioned. I guess I have to say I am not surprised by the description.

From corkd.com...

Solid wine but very young. I don't think Ive ever had a more tannic wine; teeth coating and quite dry. I would give it a 90 or 91 points now, but in 15 years could be more. Medium fruit below all that tannin, but does not taste fully ripe even in light of the high 14.5% alcohol content. Tough to get to the fruit below the tannin and alcohol. 3 hours open was not enough to air it out. Needs lots of time. I have 6 bottles of the 03 but not sure I will add any more of the 04. Glad I bought just 1 to try since it hasnt been rated yet.
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There is all this raving about how wonderful this wine is without one word as to what it tastes like. Spend some words on describing the wine instead of stating Bob's points. That would be more informative to folks that read this board.

Why bother with Robert Parker? These mini-reviews from famed British MW Live Goates answers all questions and trumps all points:

Numanthia Termes comment #1

Numanthia Termes comment #2

:o

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Medium fruit below all that tannin, but does not taste fully ripe even in light of the high 14.5% alcohol content. Tough to get to the fruit below the tannin and alcohol. 3 hours open was not enough to air it out. Needs lots of time. I have 6 bottles of the 03 but not sure I will add any more of the 04. Glad I bought just 1 to try since it hasnt been rated yet.
Might the "not fully ripe" also be a result of herbal flavors from new American oak or bitterness from high-toast new French oak? Pickle-icious!
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It is French oak. Here is info from WA and it is much different that the tasting note that I posted above.

The Wine Advocate The 2004 Termes received malolactic fermentation in barrel and was aged for 16 months in one-year-old French barriques. Inky purple-colored, it emits a beautiful bouquet of scorched earth, graphite, wild blueberry, and blackberry liqueur. This is followed by a full-bodied, layered, concentrated, intensely flavored wine with exceptional balance and length. The tannins are well concealed by the opulent fruit. Cellar this terrific wine for 6-8 years and drink it over the following 12-15. It is a fantastic value in great wine. Score: 94. —Jay Miller, February 2007.
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According to Parker's review it spends a year in French barriques.
Time spent in new wood is a key point for many red varieties. One of the beauties of making syrah is that its highly reductive nature allows for a lengthy repose in new wood (20 months or longer), which allows the wine to go all the ways through a cycle of extraction (of wood flavor and tannin), microoxidation (which tames crazy fruit and brings out soil essences), and complexation (lessening the effect of wood flavor and tannin), before stabilization and bottling. Unfortunately, budget constraints and the desire for heavily toasty/goopy syrah has led too many winemakers to use too short a repose in new wood.

Tinta de Toro (tempranillo), which is the sole variety in the Numanthia wines, is not so reductive. So longer, more harmonious reposes in barrique, new or used, are not possible without the danger of some oxidation (which can be a stylistic choice in cooler tempranillo sites such as Rioja Alta, particularly for the ethereal, ageless wines of Lopez de Heredia). But the middle ground between uber-fresh, reductive, new-woody tempranillo and Vina Tondonia is large and littered with failed wineries up and down the country. Tempranillo is also an early ripener, especially in the warmer Toro D.O., tempting vignerons to strive for that oh-so-trendy sur-maturite. And that sur-maturite further restricts your wooding options, as a lengthy, more harmonizing repose will lead to elevated amounts of volatile acidity.

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the "grand reserve" of the '04 receives 100 points (yes, 100!!!!!!) from Parker for the Numanthia Termanthia (which is about $175 a bottle).
The 100 point score is from Jay Stuart Miller, new Spain/Australia reviewer for the Wine Advocate. He is erstwhile owner of the excellent (though pricey) Bin 604 wine shop in Baltimore. And he's getting a lot of crap from a lot of people for splashing out the points in his first major article. He's also gone on record saying that all Sancerre rouge is crap. No word yet on his thoughts on Lopez de Heredia. But I can guess.
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In defense of JoeH, he is passionate about what he likes. I for one cannot describe what is in a wine. I am sure he can but he was sharing his passion as he does often. I am familiar with JoeH's taste in wines and if he is passionate about it, I know I will probably like it also.

I wish he would describe what he loved about it so the rest of us could benefit from it, but in the same token, Don would you tell us what you did not like about it?

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I had some Pieropan Recioto di Soave "Le Colombare" 1999 earlier today. It wasn't tasty.
Not that this is really on topic, but I always think of Soave's as wines you drink while they are very young. By young I mean within two years of the grapes being picked, not seven.
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You are not alone. :o On the other hand, I tend to listen to jparrott when he suggests wine pairings. I had some of the Negly Rouge in the bar at Corduroy before dinner. It wasn't what I would consider a good wine to just sip in a bar. However, it went very, very well with the cassoulet. Who knew? I can't describe wines, either. Dame Edna and I just crack up reading some wines reviews: "hints of tobacco, chocolate, tar, forest floor . . ." Sheesh!

I'm not suprised you preferred it with the cassoulet, I think most wines, no matter how good they are on their own, are better with food. While I am not exactly a fan of the Negly, and prefer a Burgandy or good Cab Franc with cassoulet, I would think it would have gone well. (I'm sorry I had to back out of the dinner but that's life.) As to the Numanthia, I'm not supprised that Joe H. loved it. From reading his posts, I would imagine that he would like a nice Tempranillo and the Numanthia Termes is one of the best. I still have some of the 2000 that is fantastic.

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I am sipping the '04 Termes as I type this. A very important point: the wine is approximately 60 degrees. Simply, it is better at the "proper" temperature-it seems to allow for a fuller, "jammier" taste and lingering texture. I am trying to discern the various fruits, vegetables, tars and tannins in the wine but, honestly, am not sophisticated enough to be able to do this. It IS jammy, DOES have a long, full taste coating my throat as it descends somewhere south in my body. It doesn't make me burp but really is damned delicious! I must admit, however, that trying to focus on the various fruits and wood (if any) in the wine is a very real distraction from my enjoyment of it. I really like it, obviously, a lot. But I have no idea what is in it and, to be honest, don't care what a description of it would entail. Blueberries, grapes, raspberries, boysenberries, tars, syrup, whatever-who knows what the hell is in this-it's just good. I also believe that anyone focusing on whatever the hell is in it really isn't enjoying it!

But drink it at less than room temperature.

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I am sipping the '04 Termes as I type this. A very important point: the wine is approximately 60 degrees. Simply, it is better at the "proper" temperature-it seems to allow for a fuller, "jammier" taste and lingering texture. I am trying to discern the various fruits, vegetables, tars and tannins in the wine but, honestly, am not sophisticated enough to be able to do this. It IS jammy, DOES have a long, full taste coating my throat as it descends somewhere south in my body. It doesn't make me burp but really is damned delicious! I must admit, however, that trying to focus on the various fruits and wood (if any) in the wine is a very real distraction from my enjoyment of it. I really like it, obviously, a lot. But I have no idea what is in it and, to be honest, don't care what a description of it would entail. Blueberries, grapes, raspberries, boysenberries, tars, syrup, whatever-who knows what the hell is in this-it's just good. I also believe that anyone focusing on whatever the hell is in it really isn't enjoying it!

But drink it at less than room temperature.

A sarcastic post, I love it!

So the wine is full-bodied, fruity (jammy), and has a long finish. Was that so hard? There is no need to focus on the specifics while drinking the entire glass (let alone the bottle), just a couple of minutes of focusing at the start.

I do hope that you are going to join us for our tasting of the Muscadet.

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A sarcastic post, I love it!

So the wine is full-bodied, fruity (jammy), and has a long finish.

I assume that you're more familiar with his past posts than I am, but I really didn't pick up any sarcasm in this one. Not all of us are especially eloquent or practiced when it comes to wine descriptors.

Thanks for your description, Joe.

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I assume that you're more familiar with his past posts than I am, but I really didn't pick up any sarcasm in this one. Not all of us are especially eloquent or practiced when it comes to wine descriptors.

Thanks for your description, Joe.

Read post #1 in this thread and then my request for more info and so forth. All is good.

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Read post #1 in this thread and then my request for more info and so forth. All is good.

For anyone who might be interested the 98 point (Parker and sorry to quote this but he IS a reference point for some, perhaps for many) '04 Numanthia Toro is sold out virtually everywhere at $54.99 and higher. ON Winezap and wine-searcher.com you can buy it for $59-69.00 from several stores but the discounted prices seem to be over. (There ARE several listed in the low 40's to low '50's but when you call them every single one is sold out.) The Wine Library ( www.winelibrary.com ) has also sold out of it.

But they insist they are getting more in and are taking names for a waiting list at $42.99 per bottle. I've had similar experiences with them before and, almost without exception, when they start a waiting list they HAVE found more of a particular wine and been able to fill an order.

It is not often that a Parker 98 point full bodied red sells for this price.

I wonder if any of the Numanthia wines will be sampled at the DC show on Saturday?

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For anyone who might be interested the 98 point (Parker and sorry to quote this but he IS a reference point for some, perhaps for many) '04 Numanthia Toro is sold out virtually everywhere at $54.99 and higher. ON Winezap and wine-searcher.com you can buy it for $59-69.00 from several stores but the discounted prices seem to be over. (There ARE several listed in the low 40's to low '50's but when you call them every single one is sold out.) The Wine Library ( www.winelibrary.com ) has also sold out of it.

But they insist they are getting more in and are taking names for a waiting list at $42.99 per bottle. I've had similar experiences with them before and, almost without exception, when they start a waiting list they HAVE found more of a particular wine and been able to fill an order.

It is not often that a Parker 98 point full bodied red sells for this price.

I wonder if any of the Numanthia wines will be sampled at the DC show on Saturday?

Parker Parker Parker.....Gotta love Bobby

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I just re-read the entire thread and chuckled at the fact that in no post from Joe Heflin's first to alan 1747's last is the Numanthia Termes "red wine" identified at all by grape variety. What is it? Is it a shiraz? Who sells it?

Mark you are just trying to stir up trouble. :o To even imply that you don't know this wine inside and out. And if you look closely you will see that buried in my post was the fact that the Numanthia is a Tempranillo. Shame on you. ten lashs with a wet noodle for you.

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Mark you are just trying to stir up trouble. :lol: To even imply that you don't know this wine inside and out. And if you look closely you will see that buried in my post was the fact that the Numanthia is a Tempranillo. Shame on you. ten lashs with a wet noodle for you.

Oooobs. :o

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In Capital Letters: THE '04 NUMANTHIA TERMES IS, PENNY FOR PENNY, ONE OF THE ABSOLUTE BEST WINES I HAVE EVER TASTED!!!!!! For references: Parker gives it 94 points. The "reserve" of this wine (Numanthia Toro) receives 98 points for what amounts to a $55.00 bottle of wine and the "grand reserve" of the '04 receives 100 points (yes, 100!!!!!!) from Parker for the Numanthia Termanthia (which is about $175 a bottle). But the $19.99/bottle (source: Wine Library which has "many" cases in stock at this writing) is awesome!!!!!! I would suggest that this is the '07 version of the Schild Estate from last year: the absolute best red wine of the year!!!!

For anyone reading this: buy this wine by the case! When you get it let it sit for ONE HOUR. Then open it. A phenominal bottle of red wine.

Simply, this is my gift to the board for this year. Serious. It is THAT good.

PS: I have two cases of the '05 Schild Estate Barossa Shiraz. I am willing to trade any or all of this to anyone who has the '04 Numanthia Termes straight up! If you are interested please e-mail me direct. Serious.

Whoever thought politics makes strange bedfellows...well, let's just say that wine makes for even stranger (and I've got a history of early morning hasty departures to prove THAT point should anyone doubt the in vino veracity of it all).

Until recently, when the wine became suddenly unavailable due to Parker, Termes was my most recommended bottle of wine--at $34 a bottle, I believe--and a featured selection on the list at Ray's The Classics (while served at 60 degrees) .

It is a great steak wine, and a great restaurant wine (meaning it makes an impressive, even over the top, impact with the first pour). It is also a wine that delivers a surprising reward for those who enjoy it over the full, patient, period of enjoyment--revealing expanding and (what I love) contradictory experiences of palate, texture and flavor over the course of an hour's exposure to airing and food influences.

It is not a great wine to enjoy on it's own. Think salty olives, biting cheeses and sizzling animal fats (the food of Spain, in an almendra-shell) and there you've got a sometimes complimentary, sometimes discordant, but ever-unfolding set of pairings.

I daresay, however, that the same lusty aggresiveness that so engages Joe H is the same "unfinished" quality that turns Don off.

At $20 a bottle (it was $17 to me wholesale, but that's Montgomery County) pick one up and decide for yourself.

Anything that puts Joe H and me on the same side of an argument is definitely worth the try.

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I bought a few bottles of the Termes on JoeH's recommendation. I opened it up about an hour before drinking it. At first drinking it, it was still a bit tannic and very alcoholy for lack of a better term. After a few hours, the tannin had settled, it was smooth and almost creamy going down. I can't identify the tastes, but you could taste certain fruits or berries or both, yet it was still a robust taste. It really was a great little wine for the price.

Michael Landrum's wine choices have always appealed to me as have Joe's. Could it be particular styles of wine suit particular tastes and as so should be respected and not so easily dismissed?

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Michael Landrum's wine choices have always appealed to me as have Joe's. Could it be particular styles of wine suit particular tastes and as so should be respected and not so easily dismissed?
Absolutely. But in this case, Michael Landrum and yourself were the only people who actually described the wine. Hyperbole is easily dismissed. I have not had this particular bottling, but have had the Termanthia, which I found too over the top. Too much oak, syrup-like in nature, and not very nuanced. All in all, it reminded me of a Sparky Marquis (Mollydooker) wine, The Boxer. Lots of people love these wines, but they aren't to my taste.
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The Termanthia is an extremely "tight" $175+ wine that should be tasted after ten+ years in most instances. In some years it is one of the great wines of the world. I strongly disagree about the comparison of Termanthia to the cough syrup like Boxer although I should note that this is a particular cough syrup that I do like. And, Dal Forno Amarone is syrup (i.e. thick and viscous) like also. In fact I probably have a fondness for wines like this to be honest.

Thanks Raisa and Michael.

This is WineZap for 2004 Numanthia Termes: http://www.winezap.com/search/searchResult...hia+termes+2004

You'll note that most of the lower prices (i.e. Wine Library for $19.99 last week) have disappeared. Places such as Sparrow Wines in northern NJ (whom I have had good service from) and numerous others have raised their prices $5.00 a bottle. Locally, Calvert Woodley had it two weeks ago for $29.99 and Macarthur had it for several dollars less. Wine Library is now sold out of both the Termes and the Toro.

A cautionary note: I have now opened five bottles of the '04 Termes and three were perfect almost from the first taste. One required at least an hour to overcome some bitterness and the fifth took perhaps an hour and a half. I have no idea for the reason for the bottle variation but all of them, over time, smoothed out and were delicious. Michael's comment about 60 degrees should be underlined: this is a wine that really benefits from the slightly cooler serving temperature AND should be tasted from a large glass like a Schott Zweisel Diva Burgundy.

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The Termanthia is an extremely "tight" $175+ wine that should be tasted after ten+ years in most instances. In some years it is one of the great wines of the world. I strongly disagree about the comparison of Termanthia to the cough syrup like Boxer although I should note that this is a particular cough syrup that I do like. And, Dal Forno Amarone is syrup (i.e. thick and viscous) like also. In fact I probably have a fondness for wines like this to be honest.
I agree that the Termanthia is "tight" - I had the 2003, which had been double decanted, and open for several hours in cellar - but we'll have to wait a couple of years to see how they will evolve after 10 - I think that this bottling has only been made since 1999, but I could be wrong. The comparison to the Boxer may not be the best one, but sprang to mind because I thought them both monolithic. My dad loves Termanthia, though - it was one of his bottles I tried. Who knows, maybe as my taste buds change I'll get into it.
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You'll note that most of the lower prices (i.e. Wine Library for $19.99 last week) have disappeared. Places such as Sparrow Wines in northern NJ (whom I have had good service from) and numerous others have raised their prices $5.00 a bottle. Locally, Calvert Woodley had it two weeks ago for $29.99 and Macarthur had it for several dollars less.

MacArthur is sold out and can't get any more. :o

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A cautionary note: I have now opened five bottles of the '04 Termes and three were perfect almost from the first taste. One required at least an hour to overcome some bitterness and the fifth took perhaps an hour and a half. I have no idea for the reason for the bottle variation but all of them, over time, smoothed out and were delicious. Michael's comment about 60 degrees should be underlined: this is a wine that really benefits from the slightly cooler serving temperature AND should be tasted from a large glass like a Schott Zweisel Diva Burgundy.

You've just highlighted why there is truth behind the old saying in our business, "There are no great WINES, only great BOTTLES" :o

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It's really true, Joe. The variation from one bottle to another can be significant. I'm not just limiting this to Numanthia Termes; having bought multiple cases of a number of wines over the years there is variation even within the case. I also know, having bought wine directly from several wineries, that there is variation within barrels. I would add that this is as true in the case of expensive wine as it is with less expensive wine. Especially frustrating regardless of the price.

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