jayandstacey

Oh, and by these defintions, Volt would likely be Elegant Dining, regardless of how experimental the menu. Unless, of course, the experiments fail. In full disclosure, I haven't eaten (yet) at Volt. But I've read about it and peeked in the windows - making me fully qualified to pass judgement on the interwebs. And yes, I know the difference between Volt and Voltaggio

Agreed - I tend to really mean "formal dining" when I'm talking about "fine dining." And agreed about Normandie Farm, it has been a while since I was there - I wouldn't class it as very fine dining despite the appearance of formality. So because I'm one of the least experienced on this board and I won a definition-writing contest in grade school, I'll take a first crack at it - others can edit it to where it needs to be. "Formal Dining" is a service approach that focuses on a defined, elaborate dining experience; most typically multi-course, white table cloth, attentive pacing, formal dress, professional attitude and speech, multiple staff (different people to wait, serve, clear, provide wine, etc). It has hallmarks like crumbers, palate clensers and service that knows the dishes in great detail. Surprises, if any, are positive, subtle and refined. It doesn't have to be stuffy or old world, but can sometimes seem that way after many non-Formal meals. "Fine Dining" is more about the food. The food far exceeds average in all ways, including taste, plating, sauces, temperature, texture, choices and overall execution. Other aspects of the experience, such as the service and atmosphere, must be of above-average quality but need not be on a par with the food. "Elegant Dining" is the whole package; it is Fine Dining wrapped in a far-exceeding-average Formal Dining experience. The atmosphere is excellent as is the service, no aspect of the meal leaves you significantly disappointed and consistency is a hallmark. This is destination dining. So for instance, Normandie Farm might be Formal Dining (mostly) but probably doesn't make the Fine Dining cut. Black Market Bistro seemed to me to be Fine Dining but not strictly Formal, thus not Elegant. Chez Francois (to me) has all the elements and thus becomes Elegant. I'm sure many of the others mentioned as great on this board would qualify as well. Edit away!

Hi Waitman - I cathartically responded to Don's PM'd request for same. Therapist Don has my story, my persmission to reprint it if he deems appropriate and the tear stains on his couch. I felt really...violated. (sob) Maybe it was my fault (victim-speak) I considered starting a thread to let people vent about "the best of times; the worst of times", stories where the carpet didn't match the drapes and superior service was met with horrible food or vice-versa. Just wasn't sure if/where appropriate. So back on topic - where would one go in Montgomery County for a classic fine dining experience, if any place at all? Places like Addies, Il Pizzico and others are nice but not (IMO) in that class. Someplace in Bethesda maybe? Voltaggio in Frederick Co. of course... And does anyplace serve a Beef Wellington these days?

I dunno - My last attempt, about a month ago, to seek the high ground was a complete disaster. The whole experience left me confused and extremely angry - at points wondering if I'd broken the law and at other points deciding we'd have to chance breaking the law. Food alone was $250 for two (I think, I'm still not sure what I was actually billed) and the food was actually quite excellent - but I left with a vow to not be so careless next time and not walk into such a disaster again. It was a shockingly bad overall experience at any price point. We were out of town and on the way back the next day and we stopped at a roadside harley stop/pub where we had cheese soup. Might have been cheese wiz boiled with Miller High Life for all I knew - but the place was simple, that soup was good and at $6, it was a value we couldn't beat. For that experience I'll crumb my own table and leave happy. I think that times like this highlight the value of a place like L'auberge Chez Francois. For a fair price, you get well cooked food, a respectable environment and experienced service. Most importantly, it seems everyone there gives a shit, not just some. So guess who will still be serving Dover Sole in 5 years after the economy wipes out some of the others? Net: While it is partially a simple reduction in lavish meal purchases, I also suspect there is less of a willingness to chance the new/experimental/fashionable place vs. the tried-and-true. The herd is being thinned by the economy and the weak won't survive.

with all fixes exhausted or not available... the only conclusion is... they're out to get you Don.

OK, so a few (hopefully) helpful things here: Tip: mouse over the little triangle at the top left of such a post, when it is a top story. Click on the triangle. Doing so should keep WP posts like that from appearing in your "top stories" part of your feed, which should help your blood pressure. Moving it off "Top Stories" might be enough for you...but if not, and you see it in the normal updates below "Top Stories" then try the top right mouse-over thing again. It *may* now allow you to change it to a "block this app" status. But it may not. I've only gotten as far as burying it. Thought: Those posts were you see what articles other people read - those would appear regardless if you downloaded the app or not. They are a result of others downloading the app and using it, for which they give the app permission to post this info as their status update - and you in turn choose to read the status updates of your friends. It seems somehow the WP app doesn't allow the "hide this app" button the way other apps do, but this may be on purpose by facebook - as a way to become a newsource of sorts, or even as a result of some pressure from WP over copyrights (just a guess, but if I were WP I'd do this). I have never downloaded the WP app but get other's posts and (like you) can't seem to hide the postings the way I can hide farmville and other game app postings. Lastly: Facebook is pretty much take it or leave it. You experience change at a fairly fast pace because the underlying business model is highly profitable but not stabilized. I'm confident next year's facebook won't be much like this. I also think that might be good - for instance, I'd like to see options where your own facebook page can have a few different tabs, maybe one for a message-board style conversation (like your site here), another that's blog-style, another that is photo-based (which they have) and another for commercial feeds/news. Time and money will tell - I am now used to the 'top stories' style but still don't like it and think it detracts from the experience.

Cape May Yeah, good for them but not for us. The old room (as you know) was kind of on a pier over the sand and right above the breaking waves. My wife and i were only dating when we went years ago. As the sun set a storm rolled in - the room had floor-to-(high)-ceiling windows that not covered in drapes and were mostly open, so we had quite a lightning show over the water. A big band orchestra was playing next door and we could hear them softly. Combine all that with good food and service and it was a great experience. I wonder if there's any hope they move back; I imagine probably not.

Thanks for the detailed report. I'm going back in a few days and if there's anything to add I will.

Did you find anything interesting? My family stayed in Harvey Cedars from about 1986 to 1996 and we still go back to visit "Old Barney" on occasion, including this last summer. Next time we go, it might be worth a stop at some place slightly more sophisticated than a soft-serve window

Cape May Monavano - have you tried Tisha's in Cape May? My wife and I have been a few times over ten years and it remains our 'high end' choice in that area. It has a touristy location in the walking mall but doesn't play to the lowest common demoninator. (IMHO) Any recommendations around Ocean City / Atlantic City / Somer's Point during Christmas week? We have our list of faves but are always looking to add to it.

Can't help with your question, but...what shop?

So why are they not finding a place and thus not opening in DC? If the appeal was as simple as this, it shouldn't matter much where it is, or the size or the apparent requirement it all be on one floor - just deliver the goods and the discerning crowd will respond to this appeal, no?

I'm not familiar with the Richmond store but I think this move gives the best chance for success. - The place is new and unique (in name) to the area. - But it isn't new - they have some experience with the Richmond location, this won't be a total experiment. - It is NOT yet another Giant. Yes, the cynic might say that the buzzwords might simply be buzzwords. But I'll add another layer of cynicism - does any place purely live up to that buzzword promise? I mean, is the rubber in the cashier's conveyor belt locally produced? Is the water they use to wash down counters 'organic'? Maybe these are rediculous examples, but my yardstick will be an honest effort to hit those buzzwords wherever possible. Better yet...an effort beyond what the average grovery store would do. I also suspect that they'll need to have some things that would disappoint the cynic, as they'll have demand from neighborhood buyers who don't want to trek a few miles to the next closest grocery store. I'm Ok with that. And I think this is a HUGE step in the right direction for RTC.

Interesting - that explains the construction. Not exactly a vibrant retail scene but hey, the cows are there. Maybe it'll be like the old "dairy bars" of yore and Southern NJ. Too bad about the place across the street that was once a breakfast/lunch restaurant, maybe 12 years ago, that now has trees growing through the walls. Not that I was sad to see the restaurant go, rather that there was a full facility right there had it not been let to rot. There was a time when I looked into buying that big brick house directly across from the train station, the one with the wrap-around porch.

In fairness, McDonald's itself denies it is a restaurant.

I have tried it. I look forward to going back, espcially if they open in DC. I have nothing against it and was merely commenting on why Eataly is so different and popular today. Should I not comment again until I have a picture of some ziti on a plate? I don't want to stray too far from what we're supposed to talk about.

Not sure what you're talking about re observations and hypothesis - I went to Eataly about 3-4 months ago. And while I may be overthinking it, I'd confidently guess that the primary investors have given this a good deal more thought than I; I'd confidently guess that they are going after the farmer's market mojo and I'd confidently guess that their reach is intended to go well beyond just good food to discerning shoppers. But those are guesses. Now I've got to run, I'm working on this paper, you see, and...

OK, so it'll be like...what...Vace? I agree that it will have some similarities to Vace. I'm not doubting that they will serve good things and that discerning folks will go and go again. I'm pointing out there will also be differences from a place like Vace and took a stab at explaining those differences. If you believe the appeal will be based on doing a very good job of delivering the goods for a reasonably discerning crowd... then we agree to disagree.

I'm going to answer my own question. I've been in the Eataly in NY. I believe that the appeal is less about the food than about the psycological appeal of shared commerce in close quarters. It literally is about the feel-good that comes when you feel like you've discovered a box of pasta vs. grabbing it off the industrial shelf in the pasta aisle of Shoppers Food Warehouse. It is about the social atmosphere, about being where others are...etc. And a place like Eataly - which offers cooked food, tables to eat, aisles to shop, gadgets to buy and classes to take. It becomes a kind of controlled mayhem, like a party almost - where some are digging on the music, others on the people watching, others on the munchies - but all there to be a part of the scene. It is a foodie nightclub on a Saturday morning. This appeal can be found in Pittsburgh in the Strip District where old shops have haphazard wares and much of the place is TIGHT. You might find some really unique pasta in a dark corner, where you fought through a crowd in a 120 year old italian market to get to it. The reality is it might be the same stuff available at Giant...but you EARNED it, and got to join a social scene while doing so. Cults use these same tactics. And Eataly does too. When I asked my question, it wasn't to judge that Eataly is bad, or that I care if NYers come down here. Rather, I was trying to understand the appeal - and the appeal is mostly in the people that come, as a very socal space is created. I mentioned in another thread that a place like this would be perfect for Rockville Town Center - and other such places. Really any place with density would probably have some success...and if some developer could cobble together a few such places and make a new "strip district" somewhere around DC - that would be pretty cool.

What's the appeal of this place? It seemed like a Wegmans laid out Ikea-style. With probably less stuff. I can only imagine that the appeal is shopping in an isle-less, end-cap-less environment. Makes it feel more like I "discovered" the box of pasta instead of just grabbing it off a shelf. Am I missing something?

Went last weekend as my son is 7 and into fire trucks. Plus we could watch baseball, racing, tennis and something else over the bar. My chili-cheeseburger was really bad. I asked medium well and it was charred dry, like it had been forgotten. My standards are pretty low - I'll still eat at Roy Roger's - but this was bad. The sides (chips, potato wedges) were A-OK. My wife got a portobello burger (no meat) and was very pleased. Difference from me and Daniel K - I will be back, as Joe's record paradise is across the street and Roadhouse Oldies is down the block. And for a guy that collected (and eventually owned a business around) new wave and soul 45s, this may be the epicenter of my musical universe. But probably not my food universe.

Speaking of Mother's Day, Tom and Ray's, their sausage and their crab cakes: I decided about a year ago to get up early on a Saturday and visit the Mount Airy Meat Locker. They have really great sage sausage - the same stuff served at Tom and Ray's, Red Rooster and others. I told my mother about the place and she asked if she could tag along - it has since turned into a monthly tradition, each of us buying steaks and ground beef and other meats for the coming month. We recently added a stop at Tom and Rays for breakfast on the way to Mount Airy. So I get to eat some, then buy some This Saturday we learned of the passing of Paul Black, one of the chefs at Tom and Ray's. I mention it because he was the guy behind their crab cakes (I just KNEW there had to be a guy behind those crab cakes!) and I'd put those crab cakes up against any - even if I'm defending them alone. Anyway...Paul was a good guy from the little I knew him, and I hope someone watched him once or twice as he made those crab cakes. First Gary's (the owner's mom, who passed just a few weeks ago), now Paul... I'm finding more and more that an element of which restaurants I like has nothing to do with the food, rather with the connection they have with the community - both the one outside their door and the one they create inside their door. In that regard, for instance, I've had similar experiences at Tom and Ray's and L'Auberge Chez Francois, although they are two ENTIRELY different operations at opposite ends of the spectrum. In each case I am (not just feel) more than just served, I'm welcomed. And in each case, when they experience a loss, so do I. Great places are like that.

They have the fixins bar: - lettuce - yellow-ish tomatos that are hard and only edible as they are sliced thin - onion - pickles - sauces OK, so I hate to admit I'm kind of a Roy's expert, having eaten at the south Frederick location, the Thurmont location (where I presume Sir Rocks ate), the Leesburg, both Germantowns, I-95, even Cumberland, and all in the last, say, year or two. I'd say its a rough place to eat but with two kids and not much free time, it beats McDonalds. Something about McDonalds leaves me feeling less-than-well. Having said that... I kind of like their scrambled egg platter. It ain't great, but about as good as I'm going to get without leaving my driver's seat. My daughter likes the double-R-bar-burger, which is a burger with ham on top. On the northeast side of the City of Frederick, just off the rte 15 Motter ave exit, the old Freez King just reopened. I went by there Tuesday night (48 hours ago) and while I liked the Shake Shack burger and bun much better, this is kind of on a par with five guys. I say kind of, as I prefer the five guys flavor - but the Freeze King has some interesting combinations like goat cheese with garlic mayo - and some local ice cream and awesome shakes. At about $2 more than Roy's, this would be a better option I'd say. Note that it has no indoor seating.

rumored to be coming to Gaithersburg MD, in the kentlands "chicken out" spot.

great ideas everyone! I continue to experiment and enjoy...now I have a few new paths to explore. I guess it was more the realization that local cheese is everywhere, but local crackers seem scarce. While breads and crostini and other such options are often better, crackers are just plain convenient. Not better, just more convenient. There are lots of good crackers on the shelves of the grocery stores...I hoped to support local producers if possible.