Corkage: What is a fair price for the restaurant and for the diner?

[Joe H]

On another thread someone suggests that their group of twelve needs a restaurant that they can bring perhaps their own four bottles of wine to. My reaction was one of surprise. To say the least.

Serious question: what is an appropriate corkage charge if a group of twelve will bring their own four bottles? I am guessing this is relative to the level of the restuarant (i.e. The Inn at little Washington would need a higher corkage charge than, say, a D. C. restuarant with formica topped tables.) I ask this because I like to bring a bottle of wine and do not want to feel guilty in doing this. I have no problem in paying a corkage charge, depending on the level of the restaurant, that could be as much as, say $50.00.

Years ago my wife and I went to the French Laundry. I brought a bottle of Groth Reserve '85 (Parker, 100 points). The French Laundry has damn near everything on their wine list. I brought the bottle because I'd had it for a long time and I thought this was the right situation to drink it in. I also must admit that I didn't want to spend several hundred dollars for a bottle off of their wine list. I don't remember how much they charged me. Somehow it seems like it was $50 or so dollars.

But i felt comfortable with it. And they were comfortable with my bottle.

In truth if my wife and I are going out to dinner I am probably going to buy a bottle that is $50-75. For a serious restaurant perhaps a bit more. But if I can bring my own bottle (that I may have bought from a discount NJ warehouse!) I can drink better. I don't mind the corkage charge because of this.

How much should a better D. C. restaurant charge for a bottle of wine that is fair to the restaurant? And someone like me will not feel guilty for bringing my own bottle? If I showed up at, say, the Capitol Grille with eleven clients and our own six bottles what would be a fair price for corkage?

In Atlantic City (Chef Vola's) and far suburan Philly (Birchrunville Store Cafe) I am just happy to get a larger glass. When you get into BYOB it is not about presentation. That is part of the price of the bottle of wine purchased from the restaurant.

[Mark Slater]

Joe, in DC and Virginia, the maximum corkage fee allowed by law is $25. In both jurisdictions, corkage is allowed at the discretion of each restaurant.

[DonRocks]

There are plenty of restaurants that will allow you to bring a case of wine if arranged in advance. There are ways around the $25 maximum corkage charge, such as a $300 "private party fee" or whatever - just make sure to work it out in advance with the GM.

[mr food]

Corkage is legal in MD but I don't think any parameters were set when the law was amended last year?

[Ericandblueboy]

From a restaurant's perspective, corkage should equal to its foregone profit. If a bottle costs the restaurant $20 (including purchase price, carrying costs, share of overhead, etc.) and it could be sold for $50, the restaurant would want corkage fee of $30. In addition, the server would want you to tip as if you purchased a $50 bottle of wine. I don't know why a diner would expect a restaurant to lose money by accomodating its clientele's wish to bring their own bottles.

[mr food]

To me as a diner, if a restaurant's list is well chosen and fairly priced, offering corkage shouldn't be an issue. Example, Dino; the only occasions I bring wine in are wine dinners with a topic.

[zoramargolis]

Lavandou used to have free corkage on Monday nights. There may be other places that do that, too.

[mr food]

wide world of wines maintains a corkage site but I don't think it's up to date. Best to always call ahead and never bring anything that's on their list. And no Yellowtail either!

[Pat]

Joe, in DC and Virginia, the maximum corkage fee allowed by law is $25. In both jurisdictions, corkage is allowed at the discretion of each restaurant.

According to Tom's chat today, the corkage limit for DC has changed and Del Campo is charging $50 per bottle.  (Very end of the transcript.)

[Tujague]

To be clear, this is Victor Albisu's assertion, not Tom's; Albisu says, "The restaurant determines the fee, and our $50 corkage charge is comparable with that of other restaurants in our area and priced near the bottom of our wine list." But the ABRA website says that the maximum corkage fee is still $25.00 (granted, one shouldn't assume that the website is up to date). So, is Albisu correct on the law change? And are there really other DC restaurants charging that much?

[Mark Slater]

To be clear, this is Victor Albisu's assertion, not Tom's; Albisu says, "The restaurant determines the fee, and our $50 corkage charge is comparable with that of other restaurants in our area and priced near the bottom of our wine list." But the ABRA website says that the maximum corkage fee is still $25.00 (granted, one shouldn't assume that the website is up to date). So, is Albisu correct on the law change? And are there really other DC restaurants charging that much?

I'm pretty sure he's wrong.

[Pat]

Does Section 717 here (from last month) override the previous $25 limit?  The OP in the chat said that he'd been there a month before and it was $25, but he was told that the law had changed.*  Of course, this law says the employee has to open the wine and must disclose the fee ahead of time.  The second thing did not happen according to the account, and the phrasing makes it sound as though they opened their wine themselves because the waiter wasn't around.

ETA

*It was $25 on his first visit, which I took to be a month ago, but perhaps he's been there more than twice.

In addition, someone has pasted 717.2 into the comments on the chat and it states the $25 explicitly.  The link I give above is from legislation of June 2013 and has no amount.

[Pat]

I think I need a lawyer to weigh in.  It appears that it was referred by a committee, may or may not have been passed but has not been signed into law:

http://dcclims1.dccouncil.us/lims/legislation.aspx?LegNo=PR20-0302

[DonRocks]

If anyone, anywhere, pays $50 corkage for wine, they need their heads examined. We did it once at Per Se and we needed our heads examined.

[B.A.R.]

What about $49.95?

[Bart]

If anyone, anywhere, pays $50 corkage for wine, they need their heads examined. We did it once at Per Se and we needed our heads examined.

Why?

With the prices of wine nowadays, I sometimes feel like bringing in a bottle of 2 Buck Chuck and paying the corkage fee just to avoid the insane prices of wine at most places.  EIther that or pound down a couple of glasses in the car before going in.

(mostly said in jest.............mostly)

[Josh Radigan]

$50?? Whoa. As for restaurant pricing on wine, there are some restaurant owners who get it. keep pricing at a level where you still make some money, but give the  impression  that your customers don't feel like they are being robbed, and therefore will be a twice a week regular in some part of the restaurant. Maybe once at the bar, once in the dining room.

[Pat]

Is anybody but me interested in the fact that the city council may have slid this change through at the behest of high-end restaurants with no publicity whatsoever?  (OK, how many people really care, I guess.)  Maybe the mayoral signature isn't even needed for a technical amendment like this, but IANAL. Lawyers?  Has the law actually changed?  There was a limit on how much corkage could be charged specified in the law, and it appears that the limit has been oh so quietly removed.

(And I've never paid corkage in a restaurant in my life and doubt I ever will.)

[lperry]

Maybe the City Council wanted to pass the wage law so Wal Mart employees could pay the new corkage fee. 

[Pat]

Maybe the City Council wanted to pass the wage law so Wal Mart employees could pay the new corkage fee. 

Admittedly, this affects a rather limited number of people, but at least one restaurant doubled the amount it charges as a result.  I guess it's easy enough to say that people who can afford to bring their own wine to a restaurant can afford to pay whatever the restaurant charges, but this change was awfully stealthy.

[lperry]

Admittedly, this affects a rather limited number of people, but at least one restaurant doubled the amount it charges as a result.  I guess it's easy enough to say that people who can afford to bring their own wine to a restaurant can afford to pay whatever the restaurant charges, but this change was awfully stealthy.

I meant it sarcastically, but not as interpreted.

[Pat]

I meant it sarcastically, but not as interpreted.

I figured you were being sarcastic, but I'm wondering what back room conversations led to this deal.

[DonRocks]

Please keep in mind that corkage is optional, by no means a requirement. In theory, it is a "privilege" regardless of price - that said, it's a privilege that I will pass on: high wine prices and excessive corkage fees are why I usually drink beer in restaurants which is a damned shame.

[deangold]

Monday Tuesday and Wednesday the corkage is always free.  And the other days we waive corkage one bottle of yours for every bottle of ours you buy.  Prosecco is $39.  Wines start at $24.  

[DonRocks]

Monday Tuesday and Wednesday the corkage is always free.  And the other days we waive corkage one bottle of yours for every bottle of ours you buy.  Prosecco is $39.  Wines start at $24.  

Used cars begin at $2,395, carpets at $149, mattresses buy one get the second 50% off, and Thursday nights are Honky Night ... bring yourself a honky get yo' ass in free! Right on, right on, right on.

Cheers,

Write On Washington

[mr food]

A fun thing to do at Dino is tell Dean what you want to spend on a bottle of wine and have him select it for you. I've always liked what he brings to the table.

[Pat]

I just heard a report on WTOP a few minutes ago saying that the law removing the $25 limit and allowing restaurants to set their own corkage fees goes into effect today.  One would think that restaurants who had already begun charging more jumped the gun a bit, legality-wise.

[lperry]

It was also discussed in the Post food section this morning.  Apparently, there were not any back room conversations, just lobbying by the Restaurant Association Metropolitan Washington.

[Choirgirl21]

I would not, in a million years, pay a $50 corkage fee. And that's all I've got to contribute to this discussion.

[saf]

I just wish that we could do as PA does (only in this small case. Not in general.) and allow BYO in places that do not have liquor licenses. That would solve many problems, IMO.

[Barbara]

I just wish that we could do as PA does (only in this small case. Not in general.) and allow BYO in places that do not have liquor licenses. That would solve many problems, IMO.

This would actually go a long way to solving the problems of Liquor-license moratoriums in various parts of the city. It would not exacerbate the problems of young'uns looking to get drunk, since we're talking about wine, but allow thoughtful people to drink a decent bottle of wine with their dinner. Sounds like a win-win to this Adams Morgan resident.

[mdt]

I just wish that we could do as PA does (only in this small case. Not in general.) and allow BYO in places that do not have liquor licenses. That would solve many problems, IMO.

This would actually go a long way to solving the problems of Liquor-license moratoriums in various parts of the city. It would not exacerbate the problems of young'uns looking to get drunk, since we're talking about wine, but allow thoughtful people to drink a decent bottle of wine with their dinner. Sounds like a win-win to this Adams Morgan resident.

In PA and NJ BYO means anything, wine, beer, and/or liquor.

[Bart]

Here's a list of local places and the corkage fees they charge.  They list 3 categories:  $25, $15-20, and free:

http://girlmeetsfood.com/byob-pop-that-cork-for-under-25

[jiveturk21]

I have never brought wine to a restaurant.  Several years ago, I did go to one of Jose Garces' restaurants in Philly and realized that it was BYOB.  They had a wine store next door, I bought some wine and they poured it for me (no charge, but I'm sure they made some profit off selling it to me in their store).

In the future, I really would like to start bringing wine to restaurants.  Why?

For one, I have some nice bottles of wine in my house that I want to drink.  And, while I can cook, I can't cook as well as the great chefs in our city, so it would be great to open a bottle of my wine and eat their incredible food at the same time.

Second, as I get older, I get more and more pissed about being ripped off at restaurants with huge wine markups.  Even though Dino doesn't charge a corkage on some nights, I would never dream about bringing a bottle there because they have an awesome, and good value, wine list.  But, there are plenty of restaurants that charge 300% + markups and, instead of paying it, I just skip ordering wine (and possibly alcohol altogether).  I would consider bringing wine there, even if they had a high corkage fee ($50).  If I buy something for $150 (trust me, I only have a handful of these), I wouldn't mind paying $50 to drink it at their restaurant instead of paying the $450 that they charge for it.  And, the restaurant should be OK with that because they get $50 for essentially opening up a bottle of wine and pouring it as opposed to $0 if I am bitter that they have an overpriced wine list.

[B.A.R.]

$50 is a giant middle finger to, perhaps, some of your most discerning guests. I've been to plenty of dinners where we have brought a bunch of wine and also BOUGHT a bunch of wine.

The bell curve on people who BYOW to a restaurant is a big fat phallus: 5% who want to get off on the cheap, 5% who are just insufferable wine pricks, and 90% rising up from the middle, that generally want to drink their good wine, AND yours!

$50? Never in a million years.

[DonRocks]

$50 is a giant middle finger to, perhaps, some of your most discerning guests. I've been to plenty of dinners where we have brought a bunch of wine and also BOUGHT a bunch of wine.

The bell curve on people who BYOW to a restaurant is a big fat phallus: 5% who want to get off on the cheap, 5% who are just insufferable wine pricks, and 90% rising up from the middle, that generally want to drink their good wine, AND yours!

$50? Never in a million years.

Restaurants arrogant (yes, arrogant) enough to charge double-retail or more for their wines probably think they're entirely justified for charging a $50 corkage fee; they aren't.

If you want to charge double-wholesale, and make a ONE-HUNDRED-PERCENT PROFIT on your wine, then that's okay - still more than you'd pay in a retail store, but okay.

Double-retail is not okay.

"Rocks, you don't know the ins and outs of running a restau ..."

Yes, I do. Or at least enough to know that charging double-retail for wine is worthy of derision.

Earth to restaurateurs: we can walk down the street and get the same damned bottle for less than half of what you charge for it. "Privilege" of drinking in your restaurant? Um, no. Not in the least. Get over yourselves and your pathetic wines which are invariably served at the wrong temperature and treated like a maraca by your servers who expect 20% for standing there and having a pulse. "How's that salmon treatin' ya?" "Are we enjoying our wonderful beet salad this evening?" "Still workin' on that roast pork, or can I get it out of your way?" Shut up and spare me!

And to the very few restaurateurs who know they're doing the right thing with their wine program: thank you from someone who both notices and cares.

[Rovers2000]

Don's post grabbed my interest and made me think of a conversation I had with the sommolier at VOLT when my wife and I were there with friends this past spring.  I remember getting the wine list and my eyes popping at the prices up and down the list - when the somm came by, I remarked that when I was recently at Range I thought it was one of the most aggressively priced wine lists (in a good way) I'd ever seen.

His response was essentially that he and his wife had gone and splurged in a way they never would have in another restaurant.  His comment was that due to volume, Range was able to drive their per bottle price down.

Range is one of the few places where I walk out of there after ordering a bottle and don't feel fleeced.  I hope that more places take the approach they (as well as Casa Luca, Dino, and some others) do vs. the 3 times retail that seems to be more the norm.

[johnb]

From a restaurant's perspective, corkage should equal to its foregone profit.  If a bottle costs the restaurant $20 (including purchase price, carrying costs, share of overhead, etc.) and it could be sold for $50, the restaurant would want corkage fee of $30.  In addition, the server would want you to tip as if you purchased a $50 bottle of wine.  I don't know why a diner would expect a restaurant to lose money by accomodating its clientele's wish to bring their own bottles.

I'll give you two reasons:

1.  If corkage fees are exorbitant, and I would categorize fees based on "foregone profit" as exorbitant (see #2 below), then many people will neither bring their own nor order yours and no extra revenue will be forthcoming, or worse they won't even come to your restaurant at all so you've lost a customer and absolutely no revenue will be forthcoming. Not a smart pricing strategy; people don't take well to being what they consider as being gouged.  Pricing must always take account of willingness to buy, otherwise known as value of service, a.k.a what the traffic will bear, and this is all the moreso when the marginal cost is small as it is here.  There is no losing of money to start with -- "share of overhead" doesn't count when pricing a particular transaction where the customer will walk if you try to profit too much, and you end up with nothing.

2.  How would you suggest they calculate the "foregone profit" in the first place.  If a restaurant marks up its wines by a fixed percentage as is common, then the dollar margin per sale of its own wine varies widely, from say $30 to $200 a bottle or the sky's the limit!  What amount should they therefore charge me for corkage of my own wine?  Do they ask me what I paid at retail then double or triple it and charge me that amount as corkage?  Do they quickly call up some local stores and try to figure out the price?  What if I bought it years ago for a fraction of its current price? Not too workable, on many levels.  To try to do it that way would be tantamount to not offering corkage at all, which they have the option to do anyway, so why screw around and piss your customers off? Not a recipe for business success.  There will always be those who don't care about the money and just order wine and pay the price; there will always be others who either do care about the money or who want their own wine selection, and to capture business from them you have to play ball or they won't come.  Sure you might make less profit from that segment of your market, but less is more than nothing.