Wine Lists

[DonRocks]

A conversation about Washington, DC's best wine list:

Bigg: "Proof!"

Johnson: "Plume!"

Bigg: "Proof!"

Johnson: "Plume!"

Bigg: "Proof!"

Johnson: "Plume!"

Joe: "Galileo!"

---

DonRocks: "Range."

Range Wine List.pdf

[B.A.R.]

Extra Bonus Points need to be awarded for crafting THIS list, and the pricing, in Montgomery County. That takes real commitment, from both a wine and business standpoint.

[brian]

Extra Bonus Points need to be awarded for crafting THIS list, and the pricing, in Montgomery County. That takes real commitment, from both a wine and business standpoint.

They're in DC - about 50 feet away from having a MUCH worse list

[B.A.R.]

Well then -50 points for a deceptive location!

[DanielK]

Western Ave is the dividing line. So Range is in DC, and Indique Heights, which you can see out the window, is in MoCo.

The music references in the wine list are fantastic.

[Barbara]

Dave M weighed in on this in todays' WaPo Food Section:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/voltaggios-range-makes-its-wine-interesting-and-affordable/2013/03/11/28b86314-8615-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394_story.html

My eyes nearly fell out at the Horton Viognier price. It's about $14 a bottle at the AdMo HT and $22 at Range. Some of you with more "refined" wine tastes might turn your nose up at a white that is a sweet as that one is, but it is right in my wheelhouse. I plan on ordering a bottle just for myself, when and if I ever get to go there.

[Rovers2000]

There is a great bussola ca'del laito valpoicella ripasso there (I've ordered it twice) for about $36 which is roughly 11 dollars over retail (Calvert Woodley).

Mark Slater had sold me a bottle of this at retail back when he was at Ray's and it really is a great version that goes with a lot of the menu at Range...kudos to them for taking this approach.

[JPW]

Dave M weighed in on this in todays' WaPo Food Section:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/voltaggios-range-makes-its-wine-interesting-and-affordable/2013/03/11/28b86314-8615-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394_story.html

My eyes nearly fell out at the Horton Viognier price. It's about $14 a bottle at the AdMo HT and $22 at Range. Some of you with more "refined" wine tastes might turn your nose up at a white that is a sweet as that one is, but it is right in my wheelhouse. I plan on ordering a bottle just for myself, when and if I ever get to go there.

Au contraire. Horton makes a viognier that I'd put up against any. Tremendously food friendly. I've always found the main challenge to be getting ones that haven't yet received a mailing from AARP.

[jparrott]

Pepiere Muscadet for $20? That's in halcyon-days-of-Corduroy-DR-HHs territory.

If I were home more than 6 days a month, I'd organize one. Those guys can make cocktails, too, y'know.

[Count Bobulescu]

I like this.......

Quote Raising a glass to Axios' second anniversary ... A hot trend in restaurants: Smart Brevity for wine lists. "Last year, for the first time, the annual World of Fine Wine restaurant wine list awards included a category of 'micro' lists," Bloomberg's Elin McCoy writes. "They’re a worldwide phenomenon," says super-sommelier Rajat Parr, who recently designed a 75-item wine list for San Francisco’s just-opened Trailblazer Tavern, a Hawaiian comfort food haven. "Micro lists are less intimidating and easier to navigate." Master sommelier Matt Stamp of Napa’s Compline has a rule of thumb for what constitutes a "micro list": “It’s a list on one page, with type in a font I can read!" And all the people said: Amen!

[Mark Slater]

7 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

I like this.......

I think the trend for "trophy wine lists" is ending due to the astronomical costs associated with them. Having managed both kind of wine lists, I can tell you that a well laid out micro list is much more consumer friendly. Not having to describe the differences between 15 different wines from the same place cuts down on the time at the table. To Jake, talking about halcyon days, when I worked at the Watergate in the mid 80's : 1979 Chateau Lafite-Rothschild $100, 1978 August Clape Cornas $18, 1983 Meursault-Charmes Hospice de Beaune $35. The good old days. 

[Count Bobulescu]

3 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

I think the trend for "trophy wine lists" is ending due to the astronomical costs associated with them. Having managed both kind of wine lists, I can tell you that a well laid out micro list is much more consumer friendly. Not having to describe the differences between 15 different wines from the same place cuts down on the time at the table. To Jake, talking about halcyon days, when I worked at the Watergate in the mid 80's : 1979 Chateau Lafite-Rothschild $100, 1978 August Clape Cornas $18, 1983 Meursault-Charmes Hospice de Beaune $35. The good old days. 

 

Agreed. While recognizing the attraction of margin wine offers, I've always found it somewhat incongruous that fine dining restaurants that typically limit menu choices to less than ten per course, go in the opposite direction with wine.

[DonRocks]

1 hour ago, Count Bobulescu said:

 

Agreed. While recognizing the attraction of margin wine offers, I've always found it somewhat incongruous that fine dining restaurants that typically limit menu choices to less than ten per course, go in the opposite direction with wine.

 

2 Amys pioneered this in the DC area, and continues to have a wonderful wine list (albeit larger than it used to be).

[Pool Boy]

I love and truly despise microlists.

I know regions I like. I know producers I like. I know how to look for easter eggs on a wine list. But I also love a surprise.

Often.....microlists miss on all marks. What to do?

I'd much rather have a short discussion about what I have narrowed it down to than an expansive discussion about what I am clueless about the microlist presented before me.

[DonRocks]

6 hours ago, Pool Boy said:

Often.....microlists miss on all marks. What to do?

I'd much rather have a short discussion about what I have narrowed it down to than an expansive discussion about what I am clueless about the microlist presented before me.

Thomas, do you have examples?

You are by no means clueless in terms of wine lists - micro-lists or otherwise - and you are able to dissect what's wrong with wine lists both large and small: Which wine lists are deficient in this town, right now, large or small? (Since this topic is centered on "small," your opinions on micro-lists would be quite valuable.)

[Josh Radigan]

I agree with Mark. From a consumer stand point smaller but just as equally complete is easier to navigate. You don't have to choose between 10 different Napa Cabs, but let the wine director/ GM/ beverage geek make a wine list that has maybe 3-4 but different styles as Napa can offer that much like Oregon Pinot's , Central Coast Syrah's. Better yet grab 3-4 Syrah's globally and make that your statement. From an operator stand point smaller is easier to control. Which in turn you can change your list more frequently which I believe is attractive to your regulars. 

[Mark Slater]

Thanks, Josh. I understand Poolboy's point. My approach has always been that wine has one duty and that is to be delicious. A micro list in the hands of a novice or goofball is something to avoid. I don't believe in novelty for novelty's sake. A well chosen, well priced micro list can be fun to play with. One of my former employers insisted on a 20% beverage cost. That means selling a bottle of wine that costs $10 wholesale for $50, which I thought was obscene.  More than 3 times retail. Wrong approach. It takes the fun out of trying new wines. Especially if they are poorly chosen and expensive. A balanced, well chosen, well priced small list is the way to go these days. 

[Count Bobulescu]

15 hours ago, Pool Boy said:

I love and truly despise microlists.

I know regions I like. I know producers I like. I know how to look for easter eggs on a wine list. But I also love a surprise.

Often.....microlists miss on all marks. What to do?

I'd much rather have a short discussion about what I have narrowed it down to than an expansive discussion about what I am clueless about the microlist presented before me.

Point taken, but I suspect you are in a minority there, and a small one too.

[Count Bobulescu]

I think 4-6 wine selections per menu item is more than adequate.

12 apps & 8 entres =100 wines. 6-10 of same BTG. 

[jpbloom]

2 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

I don't believe in novelty for novelty's sake. A well chosen, well priced micro list can be fun to play with.

I like well planned micro-lists and really dislike the massive volumes at some places (I went to Bern's several years ago and, while there were some great finds, I would still be there if I didn't just pick something).  Mark's comment highlights the two big issues for me, though.

I don't want some trendier than thou wine list that has nothing to do with the food.  I don't care if the sommelier likes orange wines or can get Trousseau from the Jura or Arinto from the Azores if it does not go well with what is coming from the kitchen.

On the other hand, I don't want a list that just caters to the lowest common denominator.  Regardless of how popular they are or how well priced they may be on the list, I don't want to see Meiomi or Silver Oak Cab on a micro-list for an Italian restaurant.  A nice mix from various regions of Italy, some well known and some less so, is what I'm looking for.  (That  being said, I've got no problem with Pinot and Cab on big lists at Italian places that want to have something for everyone.) 

[Mark Slater]

15 minutes ago, jpbloom said:

I like well planned micro-lists and really dislike the massive volumes at some places (I went to Bern's several years ago and, while there were some great finds, I would still be there if I didn't just pick something).  Mark's comment highlights the two big issues for me, though.

I don't want some trendier than thou wine list that has nothing to do with the food.  I don't care if the sommelier likes orange wines or can get Trousseau from the Jura or Arinto from the Azores if it does not go well with what is coming from the kitchen.

On the other hand, I don't want a list that just caters to the lowest common denominator.  Regardless of how popular they are or how well priced they may be on the list, I don't want to see Meiomi or Silver Oak Cab on a micro-list for an Italian restaurant.  A nice mix from various regions of Italy, some well known and some less so, is what I'm looking for.  (That  being said, I've got no problem with Pinot and Cab on big lists at Italian places that want to have something for everyone.) 

I'm with you there, buddy. I will tell you from experience , though, that there is a large group of consumers who will drink Silver Oak with: oysters, dover sole, crab cakes and any other inappropriate pairing that you can think of.. 

[Pool Boy]

4 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

Point taken, but I suspect you are in a minority there, and a small one too.

Likely yes and possibly yes. But then, what exactly is the definition of a wine 'microlist'? Is it what you indicate (4-6 wine selections per menu item)? To me, a list of 100 wines is not a microlist. Is it an expansive or trophy wine list? No. I'd call is a small wine list. To me, a microlist is when you go to a place that has 20 to 40 choices and that's it. There are places I will go to that are in that situation (or close to it), but that I tolerate because I like the list and the choices. But in general, I find such super-short lists pretty limiting. 100 selection list should be acceptable for most - even if I'd prefer a more medium to large list personally.

4 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

I think 4-6 wine selections per menu item is more than adequate.

12 apps & 8 entres =100 wines. 6-10 of same BTG. 

 

16 hours ago, DonRocks said:

Thomas, do you have examples?

You are by no means clueless in terms of wine lists - micro-lists or otherwise - and you are able to dissect what's wrong with wine lists both large and small: Which wine lists are deficient in this town, right now, large or small? (Since this topic is centered on "small," your opinions on micro-lists would be quite valuable.)

I like lager lists it is true, because I like choices. But to Mark's point that a well chosen (and ideally well priced) shorter wine list that is interesting, pairs well with the food coming from the kitchen  and so on is a beautiful thing. But places have to remember people have different tastes and if you have an ultra-short list, it limits choices and things reasonably familiar to patrons of the restaurant.  I'd prefer to not go in examples of deficient lists for the time being, but one shorter list I like, generally speaking, is Macon Bistro's. It's not perfect, and it is arguably not so reasonably priced at times, but it is of a size that provides to my palate and preferences enough choices. Others might disagree since it tends to be French-heavy, but with wine as always preferences differ and your mileage may vary.

5 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

Thanks, Josh. I understand Poolboy's point. My approach has always been that wine has one duty and that is to be delicious. A micro list in the hands of a novice or goofball is something to avoid. I don't believe in novelty for novelty's sake. A well chosen, well priced micro list can be fun to play with. One of my former employers insisted on a 20% beverage cost. That means selling a bottle of wine that costs $10 wholesale for $50, which I thought was obscene.  More than 3 times retail. Wrong approach. It takes the fun out of trying new wines. Especially if they are poorly chosen and expensive. A balanced, well chosen, well priced small list is the way to go these days. 

Totally agree on bolded section #1. Ditto for the second bolded section. And the second part is the one that drives me nuts when you are dining at a place that you have never dined before (or even infrequently) - you have no idea sometimes what's on the wine list and they present you their possibly quite short list and you are left wanting. Tome, wine is a requirement when dining out. To be left wanting on a wine list is a disappointment that can really detract from the experience for me.

3 hours ago, jpbloom said:

I like well planned micro-lists and really dislike the massive volumes at some places (I went to Bern's several years ago and, while there were some great finds, I would still be there if I didn't just pick something).  Mark's comment highlights the two big issues for me, though.

I don't want some trendier than thou wine list that has nothing to do with the food.  I don't care if the sommelier likes orange wines or can get Trousseau from the Jura or Arinto from the Azores if it does not go well with what is coming from the kitchen.

On the other hand, I don't want a list that just caters to the lowest common denominator.  Regardless of how popular they are or how well priced they may be on the list, I don't want to see Meiomi or Silver Oak Cab on a micro-list for an Italian restaurant.  A nice mix from various regions of Italy, some well known and some less so, is what I'm looking for.  (That  being said, I've got no problem with Pinot and Cab on big lists at Italian places that want to have something for everyone.) 

Totally agree!

[Mark Slater]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/are-great-sommeliers-an-endangered-species This cool interview with Bobby Stuckey says a lot of good things. I have always thought that the first thing a sommelier needs to learn is humility. Especially since the first sommelier I worked with was a completely pompous jerk. 

[Count Bobulescu]

@PB  

Not sure if there is any precise definition of microlist. We could probably debate that for a few years.......

When I said 4-6 per menu item I wasn't applying that to micros, but to lists more generally.

 

The 75 item Trailblazer list referenced in the piece I posted doesn't really cut it as "micro" in my book. That menu has 25 items and 75 wines, so in one sense it kinda does cut it, 3 wines per menu item, but if I were the ruler of all wine lists I'd say 50 max, 35 better, to qualify for micro. You can cover a lot of ground with 15-20 grape varietals and 2-3 price points each.

 

 I think diners generally, and American diners in particular, are much less interested in who makes the wine, and where does it come from, than will I like it, and is it reasonable value. 

[Count Bobulescu]

6 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

I'm with you there, buddy. I will tell you from experience , though, that there is a large group of consumers who will drink Silver Oak with: oysters, dover sole, crab cakes and any other inappropriate pairing that you can think of.. 

Every time a somm recommends Silver Oak Cab to me with seafood, I always insist on getting it in white.

[Pool Boy]

19 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/are-great-sommeliers-an-endangered-species This cool interview with Bobby Stuckey says a lot of good things. I have always thought that the first thing a sommelier needs to learn is humility. Especially since the first sommelier I worked with was a completely pompous jerk. 

Interesting article - thanks for the link. I really appreciate it when, discussing a few bottles I have it narrow down to with the somm., I ask 'Which one is drinking better right now (and would work best with our food elections)?', that I get a response that is unexpected to me. Try this one because <insert example why it will work with the fish dish *and* the guinea fowl> and hey, it's the cheaper one. Threading the needle of price, deliciousness and how it will work with the food *and still be in my chosen wheelhouse I as the diner am feeling that night* is almost impossible - but getting close to it is super and that is what the somm. is there to help you do. I think the best thing you can do to help the somm. is to briefly communicate preferences, budget, and a smidge of your own wine knowledge - it helps everyone.

16 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

@PB  

Not sure if there is any precise definition of microlist. We could probably debate that for a few years.......

When I said 4-6 per menu item I wasn't applying that to micros, but to lists more generally.

 

The 75 item Trailblazer list referenced in the piece I posted doesn't really cut it as "micro" in my book. That menu has 25 items and 75 wines, so in one sense it kinda does cut it, 3 wines per menu item, but if I were the ruler of all wine lists I'd say 50 max, 35 better, to qualify for micro. You can cover a lot of ground with 15-20 grape varietals and 2-3 price points each.

 

 I think diners generally, and American diners in particular, are much less interested in who makes the wine, and where does it come from, than will I like it, and is it reasonable value. 

Now I see. I think a microlist could work and work really well, but I think that in practice that most attempts at this will be average at best and likely sub-par. In the article starting this all, there were a couple of quotes about how hard it is to get a microlist right because there is no place to hide and mistakes will be glaring (too heavy in one area, too pricey, too heavy in this region or that - you get the idea).

[Mark Slater]

On 3/12/2013 at 5:36 PM, DonRocks said:

A conversation about Washington, DC's best wine list:

Bigg: "Proof!"

Johnson: "Plume!"

Bigg: "Proof!"

Johnson: "Plume!"

Bigg: "Proof!"

Johnson: "Plume!"

Joe: "Galileo!"

---

DonRocks: "Range."

Range Wine List.pdf

Not Proof

[zgast]

Greatly enjoying this whole debate, although I did have to google Silver Oak Cabernet.  A great sommelier - I would argue - is essential for a perfect/top-tier meal, where an expansive wine list is fairly mandatory.  Sommeliers that are just salespeople in disguise can ruin a fine dining experience, though. I'd argue that the micro lists are best as you move down the formality spectrum (and that having those by the glass gets you even more brownie points).  A good wine at a good price that I don't have to think about complements the $20-30 entree well.  

[Mark Slater]

58 minutes ago, zgast said:

Greatly enjoying this whole debate, although I did have to google Silver Oak Cabernet.  A great sommelier - I would argue - is essential for a perfect/top-tier meal, where an expansive wine list is fairly mandatory.  Sommeliers that are just salespeople in disguise can ruin a fine dining experience, though. I'd argue that the micro lists are best as you move down the formality spectrum (and that having those by the glass gets you even more brownie points).  A good wine at a good price that I don't have to think about complements the $20-30 entree well.  

Among sommeliers who enjoy Old World wines, Silver Oak Cabernet is referred to as Silver Joke. People put it on wine lists because it is guaranteed to sell.

[ktmoomau]

I dislike the micro lists at: Supra, Doi Moi, Espita Mezcaleria (I know, I know, but I HATE Mezcal).  They don't have enough options and they are all often based on what they want the consumer to like rather than what the consumer may like.  I am sure I could name others.  

[DonRocks]

1 hour ago, Mark Slater said:

Among sommeliers who enjoy Old World wines, Silver Oak Cabernet is referred to as Silver Joke. People put it on wine lists because it is guaranteed to sell.

I went to Silver Oak in 1990-ish, and bought a couple bottles of 1986 Bonny's Vineyard - anyone tried it lately? Ever?

[Mark Slater]

5 minutes ago, DonRocks said:

I went to Silver Oak in 1990-ish, and bought a couple bottles of 1986 Bonny's Vineyard - anyone tried it lately? Ever?

When Silver Oak came out in the 80s,  to buy Napa Valley bottling, you had to commit to many cases of Alexander Valley. Ditto for Bonny's (which is now known as Meyer Family). Silver Oak was also one of the very first Napa Valley cabernets to break the $100 mark on wine lists. 

[DonRocks]

1 hour ago, Mark Slater said:

When Silver Oak came out in the 80s,  to buy Napa Valley bottling, you had to commit to many cases of Alexander Valley. Ditto for Bonny's (which is now known as Meyer Family). Silver Oak was also one of the very first Napa Valley cabernets to break the $100 mark on wine lists. 

Your post brought two memories to the forefront: I paid *exactly* $100 for a bottle of 1970 Beaulieu Vineyards (BV) Georges de Latour Cabernet Sauvignon at (I think) Restaurant Palladin in the Watergate, probably in the late 1980s (this was not Jean-Louis, but his second restaurant, which was pretty darned good) - I don't know how or why I remember that price, but I do. And for whatever reason, I remember paying *exactly* $100 for a 1982 Leoville-Las Cases at Le Lion d'Or in the same time period - I guess these are the first three-digit bottles I ever purchased in restaurants, so they're buried deep within the recesses of my noodle.

As I type this, I'm having doubts about where I had the 1970 BV because I have this "visual" of a larger dining room - maybe I'll remember this later; I haven't thought about it in decades. As for the 1982 LLC, I can not only remember the restaurant, but also the table where I was sitting!

---

EDIT - Aha! I had the 1970 BV at The Dining Room at the Ritz-Carlton, Pentagon City with Gerard Pangaud as Chef - I *knew* there was something wrong with that memory.

---

"I forget the name of the place, I forget the name of the girl, but the wine was Chambertin." -- Hillaire Belloc

[Count Bobulescu]

19 hours ago, Pool Boy said:

 

Now I see. I think a microlist could work and work really well, but I think that in practice that most attempts at this will be average at best and likely sub-par. In the article starting this all, there were a couple of quotes about how hard it is to get a microlist right because there is no place to hide and mistakes will be glaring (too heavy in one area, too pricey, too heavy in this region or that - you get the idea).

Indeed, and I think that list falls victim to that line of reasoning. When I looked at it the first  thing that jumped out at me was in the white section with 19-20 wines, there were six Rieslings and four Chenin Blancs. Two varietals accounting for 50% of the selection.  Allowing that Riesling is a versatile grape etc..........I think they could have found space for several others that are not represented at all.

[Count Bobulescu]

Might be a fun exercise to create a list here, of wines, like Silver Oak, mostly Californian I would suspect, but not forgetting Cloudy Bay, and Santa Margherita, that are no longer cutting edge, but continue to trade on past glories. Wines, that if you see them on a list, make you think, if they took this little care about their wine selection, should I really be eating their food.....

[Finatic]

This thread brings back two vivid restaurant wine memories, Years {decades) ago I was hosting at Landini Brothers in Alexandria.  I asked the waiter to recommend a red wine. He suggested Quintessa, and I have never looked back. A few years ago, I was hosting my girlfriends birthday party at Marcel’s.  I asked Moëz to recommend wine for us.  He recommended a wine that was phenomenal and not that expensive,   I highly recommend both places!

[Mark Slater]

4 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

Might be a fun exercise to create a list here, of wines, like Silver Oak, mostly Californian I would suspect, but not forgetting Cloudy Bay, and Santa Margherita, that are no longer cutting edge, but continue to trade on past glories. Wines, that if you see them on a list, make you think, if they took this little care about their wine selection, should I really be eating their food.....

Google Constellation Brands and you will have the starter list of wines to avoid. Meiomi is at the top of the list. 

[Count Bobulescu]

19 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

Google Constellation Brands and you will have the starter list of wines to avoid. Meiomi is at the top of the list. 

I'm with you on Constellation & Co, but I disagree on Meiomi, because I believe it's simply a brand that never achieved any critical acclaim. I'm thinking more about once respected independent wines/brands that were bought by Big Wine, and then screwed up by ramping up production at the expense of quality, in an attempt to recover the overpayment. Etude, and similar come to mind in that category.

[Mark Slater]

17 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

I'm with you on Constellation & Co, but I disagree on Meiomi, because I believe it's simply a brand that never achieved any critical acclaim. I'm thinking more about once respected independent wines/brands that were bought by Big Wine, and then screwed up by ramping up production at the expense of quality, in an attempt to recover the overpayment. Etude, and similar come to mind in that category.

Meiomi is one of the most shocking stories of the past 10 years in the wine world. Creating a sweet, full bodied pinot noir was bad enough. Meiomi was a virtual vineyard: no vineyards, no production facilities. It was merely a brand. Charles Wagner was able to sell the brand for $350 million. All Meiomi was were a bunch of grape contracts. When Duckhorn sold for $275 million, it included 4 wineries, over 200 acres of Napa Valley vineyard and excellent goodwill. 

[Count Bobulescu]

The wines I had in mind when suggesting this list, were mostly once admired independents who either got swallowed up by corporate wine, or just failed to stay relevant to their consumers. I haven't had any of these wines in twenty years, so I'll be interested to see where people might disagree, or where they think the a wine/winery/brand is finding its roots again. That's always a pleasant surprise.

 

I'll start with the A's, and I realize I might be too harsh here, and exceptions prove the rule etc.

Acacia,  Arrowood,  Archery Summit,  Au Bon Climat.

[Count Bobulescu]

12 minutes ago, Mark Slater said:

Meiomi is one of the most shocking stories of the past 10 years in the wine world. Creating a sweet, full bodied pinot noir was bad enough. Meiomi was a virtual vineyard: no vineyards, no production facilities. It was merely a brand. Charles Wagner was able to sell the brand for $350 million. All Meiomi was were a bunch of grape contracts. When Duckhorn sold for $275 million, it included 4 wineries, over 200 acres of Napa Valley vineyard and excellent goodwill. 

That distinction between Meiomi and Duckhorn is exactly what I had in mind.

[Mark Slater]

17 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

The wines I had in mind when suggesting this list, were mostly once admired independents who either got swallowed up by corporate wine, or just failed to stay relevant to their consumers. I haven't had any of these wines in twenty years, so I'll be interested to see where people might disagree, or where they think the a wine/winery/brand is finding its roots again. That's always a pleasant surprise.

 

I'll start with the A's, and I realize I might be too harsh here, and exceptions prove the rule etc.

Acacia,  Arrowood,  Archery Summit,  Au Bon Climat.  

Acacia went corporate when The Chalone Group was sold to Diageo, Arrowood still makes wine, but I believe he has corporate backing, Gary Andrus started Archery Summit after Pine Ridge but then sold it to, I believe, Phillip Morris. Jim Clendenen still makes ABC. Its not well represented in this market. 

[Count Bobulescu]

2 minutes ago, Mark Slater said:

Acacia went corporate when The Chalone Group was sold to Diageo, Arrowood still makes wine, but I believe he has corporate backing, Gary Andrus started Archery Summit after Pine Ridge but then sold it to, I believe, Phillip Morris. Jim Clendenen still makes ABC. Its not well represented in this market. 

Can you think of any other A's that fit the bill?

[MarkS]

I think a well curated list of 100 wines is sufficient and a lot easier to maintain then a 19 page or larger  book. A small list can show love and focus between chef and Somm./Wine manager as opposed to buying every wine that is available. 

When in doubt I usually go to a Rioja.

[jpbloom]

47 minutes ago, MarkS said:

When in doubt I usually go to a Rioja.

Interesting that you say that.  Rioja is generally my fallback as well.

[MarkS]

7 minutes ago, jpbloom said:

Interesting that you say that.  Rioja is generally my fallback as well. 

I'm attending a wine tasting and dinner this weekend featuring Kurt Venge representing his Napa and Sonoma wines and Roda from Rioja.  Should be very interesting.

[jpbloom]

3 minutes ago, MarkS said:

I'm attending a wine tasting and dinner this weekend featuring Kurt Venge representing his Napa and Sonoma wines and Roda from Rioja.  Should be very interesting.

I've been to Roda - good stuff across the board.  You'll enjoy it.

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

[Keithstg]

7 hours ago, MarkS said:

I think a well curated list of 100 wines is sufficient and a lot easier to maintain then a 19 page or larger  book. A small list can show love and focus between chef and Somm./Wine manager as opposed to buying every wine that is available. 

When in doubt I usually go to a Rioja.

Just catching up on this thread. Saw the Stuckey interview linked on Wineberserkers a while ago - very interesting. I agree that a 100 selection list of wines is sufficient (even if "curated" makes me nauseous) - my go to when in doubt is also Rioja - well, that or CNDP. Another bellwether for me is orange wine. If a list has a lot of it and/ or it's being heavily pushed, odds are I should just drink beer.

[Pool Boy]

11 hours ago, MarkS said:

I think a well curated list of 100 wines is sufficient and a lot easier to maintain then a 19 page or larger  book. A small list can show love and focus between chef and Somm./Wine manager as opposed to buying every wine that is available. 

When in doubt I usually go to a Rioja.

Can you recommend a rioja to try? I've always been....not interested in the ones I have tried in the past. I stopped trying.

[Mark Slater]

3 hours ago, Pool Boy said:

Can you recommend a rioja to try? I've always been....not interested in the ones I have tried in the past. I stopped trying.

Lopez Heradia Tondonia. Old style Rioja, light like Burgundy. 

[MarkS]

Artadi, Muga and Roda are three producers I like and have in my cellar.  Consider tasting from Crienza, Riserva to Grand Riserva which denotes increased barrel and bottle aging though the standards are minimums.  Great importer is Grapes of Spain founded and run by Aurelio who was Somm at Tabernina a long time back.  

Riojas age well.  And because they are bottle aged at the producer, they typically drink well at all time. 

[B.A.R.]

Off-Topic: Olé Imports/Obrigado Vinhos has a phenomenal selection of wines from Spain and Portugal - a virtual guarantee that the wine will be of high quality.

On-Topic: However you want to define a "micro" list, having a list with sufficient breadth of styles and price points is virtually impossible with less than, say 80 selections. Now, I did say virtually impossible. Those that succeed usually focus on a single country (Italy/Spain) or better yet, region and mine the nuance and depths of the area and winemaking styles. This takes tremendous skill and discipline on behalf of the sommelier, but it can certainly be done, with as few as 40-50 bottles.

The perfect size, as far as I am concerned, is 150 give or take, as I don't want to spend all night pouring through the list. Also, please do not whore me on the pricing. There is nothing that ruins my evening more when I cannot bear to even order a bottle of wine because the pricing is so egregious. 3x wholesale? Sure. 3x+ Retail? Go fuck yourself. Additionally, although I don't mind spending more than what most people are comfortable with on a bottle of wine, there should be plenty of really good wine under $50 on your list. If there isn't, it reflects poorly on you as a restauranteur, and how you feel about your clientele.

[Count Bobulescu]

On the 3x wholesale principle, three price points, $50, $75 & $100, times 15 to 20 grape varietals covers a lot of ground.

[B.A.R.]

32 minutes ago, Count Bobulescu said:

On the 3x wholesale principle, three price points, $50, $75 & $100, times 15 to 20 grape varietals covers a lot of ground.

Sure does, but throw in sparkling and BTG and you are at 100+ selections very quickly

 

[DaveO]

For someone completely ignorant on wine,  who didn't even drink wine for 2+ decades due to an allergic reaction, who has no inclination to now learn about wines, and for someone who when he dines out with folks who enjoy wine at dinner but are not knowledgeable and therefore turn the decision over to a sommelier or waiter this has been an interesting and educational discussion.

I've now learned about a few wines/types that those who know more tend to favor.  I've become a little wary of what are evidently popular wines on wine lists, but not that great or overpriced over valued.  I don't know about wine pricing.  All food is marked up.  Liquor has enormous markups, but virtually nobody in their right mind starts off with a cocktail where the retail price is $150 and up and then absorbs a mark up that is 3,4,5 times the retail price.

One quick takeaway is that I'd return to Corduroy simply because I appreciate the advise, experience, perspective, and expertise from Mark Slater and I'd suggest  putting my group in his hands.  Alternatively I'm a bit more hesitant in turning over the decision to other staff in other restaurants.

All of which is to say I brush off the "now erased comment".  If in reading reviews I see 50 comments that are favorable and one comment that is unfavorable I don't mind.  Its a little more real than 100% favorable reviews.  I'll go with the 50.  I'll more strongly go with the 50 if they have added credibility. 

[Josh Radigan]

One of my former bosses used to say to me "what I think looks great in a dining room is a bottle of wine on each table." And so he decided a long time ago that the best way to make that happen was through an aggressive pricing structure. He took his wine from the wine shop next door, which had the retail mark up, and added $10 to that price for the restaurant pricing. So, yes, it isn't in line with the typical 300% markup for 20% cost as Mark mentioned earlier, but it allowed his restaurant that look and appeal. It was almost stupid not to order a bottle. Question is simple- would you rather have a restaurant that is half full, but making those margins, or a restaurant in demand that is busy all the time but at higher cost of doing business?

[Count Bobulescu]

1 hour ago, B.A.R. said:

Sure does, but throw in sparkling and BTG and you are at 100+ selections very quickly

 

Perish the thought that I might be a math pedant or anything like that. 😀

20 varietals at 3 price points = 60 wines, leaving lots of room for sparkling and BTG.

Agree with you on Ole.

[ktmoomau]

Thank you all for this great discussion.  I really like wine, but really don't know enough about it, and love learning more, this thread is great, keep it up!  One of Matt and I's favorite discoveries was red blend (maybe a Pinotage?) that Mark recommended while at Ray's.  I can't recall what it was, I have it in an app on my phone, but it had a bird on the label.  It opened us up to a new type of wine we hadn't had before and was a nice wine at an accessible price point.  I really think being able to have access to someone with a love of wine who can make a list with some good standbys and a few interesting selections so it isn't overwhelming, but you also have some nice choices is nice at a decent value makes all the difference in having a nice evening or something that can be more special.  I am not sure how a micro list is defined, but I like the 60-100 wines range.  I don't love places that you see 20 or less wines on the list, I think those are the ones that tend to disappoint me when I see them.  

[Keithstg]

12 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

Lopez Heradia Tondonia. Old style Rioja, light like Burgundy. 

I was going to say LdH, Vina Cubillo- same style to Tondonia, lower price point as an experiment.

[B.A.R.]

2 hours ago, Count Bobulescu said:

 

Perish the thought that I might be a math pedant or anything like that. 😀

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man he brings math into a discussion of wine lists!"

You can take that math shit to the math thread, which existed 9+ yers ago between @DonRocks and was solved by @jparrott and I cannot find because I am barely computer literate.

[silentbob]

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic tangent, but we visited Lopez de Heredia on our honeymoon several years ago and bought some bottles of the 2001 Rioja Reserva Vina Tondonia.  CellarTracker lists the drinking period as 2020-2050.  Am I really making a huge mistake by not waiting another 10-20 more years or longer before opening one?

[Mark Slater]

3 hours ago, silentbob said:

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic tangent, but we visited Lopez de Heredia on our honeymoon several years ago and bought some bottles of the 2001 Rioja Reserva Vina Tondonia.  CellarTracker lists the drinking period as 2020-2050.  Am I really making a huge mistake by not waiting another 10-20 more years or longer before opening one?

2001 was a great vintage. I would try one now.

[Mark Slater]

6 hours ago, DaveO said:

For someone completely ignorant on wine,  who didn't even drink wine for 2+ decades due to an allergic reaction, who has no inclination to now learn about wines, and for someone who when he dines out with folks who enjoy wine at dinner but are not knowledgeable and therefore turn the decision over to a sommelier or waiter this has been an interesting and educational discussion.

I've now learned about a few wines/types that those who know more tend to favor.  I've become a little wary of what are evidently popular wines on wine lists, but not that great or overpriced over valued.  I don't know about wine pricing.  All food is marked up.  Liquor has enormous markups, but virtually nobody in their right mind starts off with a cocktail where the retail price is $150 and up and then absorbs a mark up that is 3,4,5 times the retail price.

One quick takeaway is that I'd return to Corduroy simply because I appreciate the advise, experience, perspective, and expertise from Mark Slater and I'd suggest  putting my group in his hands.  Alternatively I'm a bit more hesitant in turning over the decision to other staff in other restaurants.

All of which is to say I brush off the "now erased comment".  If in reading reviews I see 50 comments that are favorable and one comment that is unfavorable I don't mind.  Its a little more real than 100% favorable reviews.  I'll go with the 50.  I'll more strongly go with the 50 if they have added credibility. 

Thanks for the shout out, DaveO. I'm not at Corduroy anymore, but I will tell about my new gig at the proper time. 

[Count Bobulescu]

5 hours ago, B.A.R. said:

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man he brings math into a discussion of wine lists!"

You can take that math shit to the math thread, which existed 9+ yers ago between @DonRocks and was solved by @jparrott and I cannot find because I am barely computer literate.

Having trouble with the bits & bytes, ones and zeroes? 😀

[Mark Slater]

On 3/13/2013 at 12:54 PM, Barbara said:

Dave M weighed in on this in todays' WaPo Food Section:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/voltaggios-range-makes-its-wine-interesting-and-affordable/2013/03/11/28b86314-8615-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394_story.html

My eyes nearly fell out at the Horton Viognier price. It's about $14 a bottle at the AdMo HT and $22 at Range. Some of you with more "refined" wine tastes might turn your nose up at a white that is a sweet as that one is, but it is right in my wheelhouse. I plan on ordering a bottle just for myself, when and if I ever get to go there.

Classic Viognier is not normally sweet.

[Pool Boy]

On 1/23/2019 at 11:52 AM, ktmoomau said:

.. I don't love places that you see 20 or less wines on the list, I think those are the ones that tend to disappoint me when I see them.  

Exactly.

[cuisine soignee]

On 1/23/2019 at 1:03 AM, Mark Slater said:

Lopez Heradia Tondonia. Old style Rioja, light like Burgundy. 

 

On 1/22/2019 at 9:19 PM, Pool Boy said:

Can you recommend a rioja to try? I've always been....not interested in the ones I have tried in the past. I stopped trying.

The LH T is a little outside my personal price comfort level for trying something, but I feel really great about the Rioja I picked up today and am enjoying right now: C.V.N.E. Vina Real Crianza 2014 ($16). Brought in from car and uncorked right away. I like mine a little chilly, and to warm as I drink them. From @Pool Boy's wine-related posts I've read here and there, I gather he enjoys red wines at appropriate temps (slightly cooler than often served), so I think he'd have liked it how I poured it. Surprised me how smooth and easy to quaff. Started feeling it (admittedly on a somewhat empty stomach), and checked the abv (13.5%). Pleasantly surprised that it drank with much more finesse than I expected. Very much like a cool-climate PN, imho. $16 is an easy experiment price. Interested in what you think, if you try...and always interested in anything Mark Slater has to say.

Sorry for the hijack...🍷

[Mark Slater]

3 hours ago, cuisine soignee said:

The LH T is a little outside my personal price comfort level for trying something, but I feel really great about the Rioja I picked up today and am enjoying right now: C.V.N.E. Vina Real Crianza 2014 ($16). Brought in from car and uncorked right away. I like mine a little chilly, and to warm as I drink them. From @Pool Boy's wine-related posts I've read here and there, I gather he enjoys red wines at appropriate temps (slightly cooler than often served), so I think he'd have liked it how I poured it. Surprised me how smooth and easy to quaff. Started feeling it (admittedly on a somewhat empty stomach), and checked the abv (13.5%). Pleasantly surprised that it drank with much more finesse than I expected. Very much like a cool-climate PN, imho. $16 is an easy experiment price. Interested in what you think, if you try...and always interested in anything Mark Slater has to say.

Sorry for the hijack...🍷

How did I forget CUNE? Just for fun you should look for a New style of tempranillo.  Ribera del Duero. These wines are the polar opposite of classic Rioja. They have large body, spice and intense flavors. This Decanter article Is helpful . I'm partial to the Borhoquez https://www.decanter.com/wine-reviews-tastings/twelve-great-value-ribera-del-duero-288253/

[Pool Boy]

13 hours ago, cuisine soignee said:

The LH T is a little outside my personal price comfort level for trying something, but I feel really great about the Rioja I picked up today and am enjoying right now: C.V.N.E. Vina Real Crianza 2014 ($16). Brought in from car and uncorked right away. I like mine a little chilly, and to warm as I drink them. From @Pool Boy's wine-related posts I've read here and there, I gather he enjoys red wines at appropriate temps (slightly cooler than often served), so I think he'd have liked it how I poured it. Surprised me how smooth and easy to quaff. Started feeling it (admittedly on a somewhat empty stomach), and checked the abv (13.5%). Pleasantly surprised that it drank with much more finesse than I expected. Very much like a cool-climate PN, imho. $16 is an easy experiment price. Interested in what you think, if you try...and always interested in anything Mark Slater has to say.

Sorry for the hijack...🍷

No worries about the hijack - this is what's great about dr.com. And I never quite realize that people actually read these posts I make and notice stuff like my wine temperature preferences being a bit out of the norm.  I'll keep an eye out for the CUNE.

13 hours ago, Mark Slater said:

How did I forget CUNE? Just for fun you should look for a New style of tempranillo.  Ribera del Duero. These wines are the polar opposite of classic Rioja. They have large body, spice and intense flavors. This Decanter article Is helpful . I'm partial to the Borhoquez https://www.decanter.com/wine-reviews-tastings/twelve-great-value-ribera-del-duero-288253/

Thanks as always for your reccommendations, @Mark Slater -

[youngfood]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:50 PM, Mark Slater said:

Thanks for the shout out, DaveO. I'm not at Corduroy anymore, but I will tell about my new gig at the proper time. 

GAH!   I can't believe I finally made a reservation at Corduroy only to learn you aren't there!  

[cjsadler]

Now that Range is gone, is there anywhere that’s close in markup?  

Also, a friend is looking to drink a fancy bottle he’s been holding with me; wants to know somewhere nice we can do it with a low or no corkage fee.  Any ideas?

[Mark Slater]

10 hours ago, cjsadler said:

Now that Range is gone, is there anywhere that’s close in markup?  

Also, a friend is looking to drink a fancy bottle he’s been holding with me; wants to know somewhere nice we can do it with a low or no corkage fee.  Any ideas?

Corduroy

[Keithstg]

11 hours ago, cjsadler said:

Now that Range is gone, is there anywhere that’s close in markup?  

Also, a friend is looking to drink a fancy bottle he’s been holding with me; wants to know somewhere nice we can do it with a low or no corkage fee.  Any ideas?

Ditto Corduroy in terms of wine mark-ups. Lots of excellent values.

Not sure how the food is currently, but if the fancy bottle is from the US, Charlie Palmer steak will not charge corkage.

[Mark Slater]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:33 AM, MarkS said:

Artadi, Muga and Roda are three producers I like and have in my cellar.  Consider tasting from Crienza, Riserva to Grand Riserva which denotes increased barrel and bottle aging though the standards are minimums.  Great importer is Grapes of Spain founded and run by Aurelio who was Somm at Tabernina a long time back.  

Riojas age well.  And because they are bottle aged at the producer, they typically drink well at all time. 

Aurelio was somm at Marcel's  in the beginnings.