Chicago Bans Foie Gras (Repealed)

[FunnyJohn]

Animal Rights activists may be on the verge of a major victory in the windy city regarding the banning of foie gras: Could it happen here?

Edited September 15, 2005 by FunnyJohn

[Al Dente]

What do you guys think about this topic? I love foie gras, but it sure does seem to be a pretty barbaric product. I'm considering not eating it anymore.

[Barbara]

What do you guys think about this topic? I love foie gras, but it sure does seem to be a pretty barbaric product. I'm considering not eating it anymore.

I'm wondering if the methods used are truly as barbaric as they sound. After all, the people trying to ban this have other motives. What I have read about this process in France, it isn't nearly so dire as described here. I'm keeping an open mind on the subject and will look for further info from less interested parties.

[mdt]

I'm wondering if the methods used are truly as barbaric as they sound.  After all, the people trying to ban this have other motives.  What I have read about this process in France, it isn't nearly so dire as described here.  I'm keeping an open mind on the subject and will look for further info from less interested parties.

Of course they have other motives. They would love to use this as a start to try and ban all sorts of other animal products.

[RaisaB]

I had a conversation in France years ago with someone who lived in an area where they produced Foie Gras. He claimed that the (Ducks, Geese) would actually come running to get fed. If it was as abusive as they claim wouldn't they be going the other direction? I think people should direct their energies to those who really need their help, fellow humans.

Edited September 15, 2005 by RaisaB

[FunnyJohn]

OK, since I started this topic, I guess I'll provide my

and it probably will not surprise many of you: If you disapprove of the way foie gras may (or may not) be produced, then don't eat it. But please lets not have a government regulation making my mind up for me.

Edited September 15, 2005 by FunnyJohn

[bigpinot]

Animal Rights activists may be on the verge of a major victory in the windy city regarding the banning of foie gras: <span style='color:red'><span style='color:red'>Could it happen here</span>?</span>

Interesting article. looks like Charlie Trotter has stopped serving foie gras. Damn shame - each of the 3 times that I've eaten at his restaurant foie gras was on the menu. I wonder if he's vowing not to serve veal or use demi-glace (made from veal) in his restaurant... Please, Charlie, don't become a sell-out Celebrity Chef! (maybe it's too late already)

[deangold]

I will first admit to being a friend of Ariane Daughin at d'Artagnan and Jim Gilles at Sonoma Foie Gras....

The main issue of foie gras production in the US has to do with two isues: Gravage (forced feeding) and beak clipping.

Ducks naturally gorge themselves in preparation for their migration. In the wild you will often find dead ducks with whole fish stuck in their throats. They will show the same injuries the animal rights folk ascribe to gravage. Gravage is the finishing process that actually enlarged the liver o the duck. A tube is inserted in the duck and the high fat feed is fed directly into the stomach. If you visit a duck farm, and I have, the ducks don't seem particularly perturbed by the process.

Debeaking is another story altogether. Imaging having the tip of your tongue cut off and given no medical treatment for it. That is what happens when any fowl is debeaked. I think it a barbaric practice and I think it should be outlawed. It is one thing to farm animals for food, but torture is another. This is but one of the cruelties of factory farming and it does occur in the foie gras industry. But it also occurs in the egg industry as well.

[tenunda]

I will first admit to being a friend of Ariane Daughin at d'Artagnan and Jim Gilles at Sonoma Foie Gras....

The main issue of foie gras production in the US has to do with two isues: Gravage (forced feeding) and beak clipping.

Ducks naturally gorge themselves in preparation for their migration.  In the wild you will often find dead ducks with whole fish stuck in their throats.  They will show the same injuries the animal rights folk ascribe to gravage.  Gravage is the finishing process that actually enlarged the liver o the duck.  A tube is inserted in the duck and the high fat feed is fed directly into the stomach.  If you visit a duck farm, and I have, the ducks don't seem particularly perturbed by the process.

Debeaking is another story altogether.  Imaging having the tip of your tongue cut off and given no medical treatment for it.  That is what happens when any fowl is debeaked.  I think it a barbaric practice and I think it should be outlawed.  It is one thing to farm animals for food, but torture is another.  This is but one of the cruelties of factory farming and it does occur in the foie gras industry.  But it also occurs in the egg industry as well.

Would the foie gras be of appreciably lower-quality if the fowl weren't force-fed, or does anyone know? I haven't tried the liver of any of the wild geese or ducks I've eaten in my life, so I don't really have a benchmark. Is the tube feeding absolutely necessary?

[deangold]

Would the foie gras be of appreciably lower-quality if the fowl weren't force-fed, or does anyone know?  I haven't tried the liver of any of the wild geese or ducks I've eaten in my life, so I don't really have a benchmark.  Is the tube feeding absolutely necessary?

Having made large batches of confit, I have had the plesures of eating a large amounto f non force fed duck liver. It just isn't the same. Great, but nothing like foie gras. Of course, Ankimo, monk fish liver, results without the feeding tube issues tho I dare say the angler fish himself (or herself) ain't so happy about THAT!

[jparrott]

No liver for you!

[Poivrot Farci]

No liver for you!

Perversion most fowl.

The Chicago City Council might want to take a tour of IBP and other midwest processing facilities and then decide how the fate of cattle and swine compare to that of ducks. The workers aren't treated much better.

[Al Dente]

I know this has been discussed at length elsewhere, but can anyone here persuasively argue a defense of foie gras? By all accounts it does seem an unneccesarily cruel practice. Though, admittedly, I love the stuff. However I'm becoming increasingly unlikely to order it anymore.

For the record, I normally have no sympathies with PETA, but this practice does seem over the top.

Discuss...

[jparrott]

But the animals in question only exist for this purpose--it's not like someone is capturing wild ducks and geese (who are part of the evolutionary cycle) and doing this to them. FG birds are bred outside of the process of natural selection and largely kept away from the normal bird genepools.

[Al Dente]

But the animals in question only exist for this purpose--it's not like someone is capturing wild ducks and geese (who are part of the evolutionary cycle) and doing this to them.  FG birds are bred outside of the process of natural selection and largely kept away from the normal bird genepools.

This fact doesn't justify the practice. If anything it would argue against it-- birds specifically bred for massive force-feeding?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not trying to be provocative. When I'm faced with the reality of what has to take place in order to put this delicacy on a plate in front of me, I believe I'm at a loss if I attempt to defend it.

[JPW]

This fact doesn't justify the practice. If anything it would argue against it-- birds specifically bred for massive force-feeding?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not trying to be provocative. When I'm faced with the reality of what has to take place in order to put this delicacy on a plate in front of me, I believe I'm at a loss if I attempt to defend it.

I'll flip the question around -- why don't we have to defend everything else that we put on our plate? Why just foie?

We'd then have to defend the breeding of cattle specifically so that they can be slaughtered for food. That they are injected with all kinds of hormones and fed chemically laced food designed to enhance growth so they can be slaughtered that much sooner. That they get herded onto to trucks and trains in impossibly tight quarters to ship them to the slaughter house as cheaply as possible. That they are killed by an electric shock that sometimes doesn't quite do the job so that they wake up hanging upside while someone else tries to slit their throat and bleed them.

Go to an industrial swine farm or chicken hatchery and what is done to get foie pales in comparison.

[ustreetguy]

Why just foie?

Exactly - why stop there? Why not ban veal or non-free range chicken? Yes the practices may be a bit cruel, but this seems to be a poor use of the council's time. Why not let chefs or consumers decide for themselves?

We have children getting killed by gang leaders and dope dealers. We have real issues here in this city. And we’re dealing with foie gras? Let’s get some priorities.

[Nadya]

I don't understand what's wrong with torturing birds for my eating pleasure.

[jparrott]

This fact doesn't justify the practice. If anything it would argue against it-- birds specifically bred for massive force-feeding?

As JPW said, it's the same as breeding cattle (again, outside the wild genepool) for keeping in pens and slaughtering at some calculated age.

Of course, the ones that get beer and massages sure do have it good.

[shogun]

I don't understand what's wrong with torturing birds for my eating pleasure.

They're cute. People don't like torturing cute things. Cows aren't so cute, which is why the Tournedos are fine the but Rossini part gets them, irregardless of whether or not you like his music. This is why we'll never see kitten fois gras on the menu of any but the most private club.

--Matt

PM me for directions and the password

[qwertyy]

Exactly - why stop there?  Why not ban veal or non-free range chicken?  Yes the practices may be a bit cruel, but this seems to be a poor use of the council's time.  Why not let chefs or consumers decide for themselves?

We have children getting killed by gang leaders and dope dealers. We have real issues here in this city. And we’re dealing with foie gras? Let’s get some priorities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But this argument is a red herring. I mean, really--is there ANY issue that couldn't be trumped by something more serious? Why worry about dope dealers when people are dying in Darfur? Why worry about ABC licensing when our schools are falling apart? There will always something more important, more worthy, to do.

Of course, I think the ban is silly too, but not for that reason. What makes these birds more important than cows and chickens and piggies?

[Poivrot Farci]

Commercial veal are no longer kept in pens. PETA did away with that a long time ago. "veal" steers are slaughtered at an early age before their third stomach develops (adult steers having 4). Fast Food Nation illustrates the horrors of industrial American beef.

As for the ducks and geese, their brains are Rubik's Cube equivalent of 2x2 cube with only 2 colors...a puzzle even Bobby Flay could figure out. Duck and geese have no gag reflexes, therefore the feeding funnels (now mechanized as opposed to the hand cranked Archimiedes wheels of les vieux temps) do not bother them. The ducks are fed twice daily for a fortnight until their weight doubles and their livers grow to the size of David Crosby's. I have heard that farmers turn off the lights in the coops and then turn them on again a few hours later and the ducks think "oh, a new day, time to eat again." Rumor has it that the ducks are particular and when hand fed will only eat, albeit forcibly, from the same person hence the difficult of migrant foie gras workers in Hudson Valley getting a day off.

Average French duck livers range in 1-1.5# and the artisinal whole ducks found in markets in the winter still have corn in their gizzards. I'm not sure if american ducks are feed cheetos or what, but their livers get well past 2#. The council should concentrate their efforts on banning the practice of force feeding children since they seems to be much fatter than their European counterparts as well

In a effort to please both sides of the fat ducks - fatter people debate, I'm working on soylent foie in my lab at home.

[Tweaked]

In my opinion PETA's arguments at a fundamental level are flawed. Cruelty to animals is wrong. well animals are a living organism. therefore they should argue that cruelty to living organisms is wrong.

Is the mass slaughter of cows (or name your animal) any more cruel than taking large mechanized blades (say a combine harvestor) and mowing down a field of corn (another living organism).

Really they are just making an arbitrary judgement that killing animals is wrong but killing plant life is ok...or they have made an arbitrary judgement that killing one form of life is wrong but killing another form of life is ok.

[Waitman]

In my opinion PETA's arguments at a fundamental level are flawed.  Cruelty to animals is wrong.  well animals are a living organism.  therefore they should argue that cruelty to living organisms is wrong.

Is the mass slaughter of cows (or name your animal) any more cruel than taking large mechanized blades (say a combine harvestor) and mowing down a field of corn (another living organism).

Really they are just making an arbitrary judgement that killing animals is wrong but killing plant life is ok...or they have made an arbitrary judgement that killing one form of life is wrong but killing another form of life is ok.

You have found evidence that plants are conscious beings that feel pain? Do share.

I rather think that Al has a point: at some locus, cruelty to another sentient being becomes intolerable. Thus, we eat beef, but we don't tolerate bull-baiting any more, nor would we stand for twisted sadist torturing a cow to death with the excuse that it was for his own dinner (or would we?). Whether or not force feeding ducks is over the line is open for debate. The fact that someone would look at the foie gras process and find it disturbing is, however perfectly reasonable.

By the way, the assertion that ducks do not mind having pipes, and then grain, shoved down their throats has been made many times but never -- to my knowledge by a disinterested analyst, or a duck.

[Poivrot Farci]

While I have no medical background or equivalent education and can not confirm or deny that animals have feelings or can appreciate cable television, I would argue that mowing down a field of cows is more cruel than a field of corn.

It is silly to put all living organism in a group and even the PETA member on the furthest ends of the spectrum aren't championing the rights of icebeg lettuce.

Animal Rights Groups such as the Humane Farming Association are not against using living organisms for food or "killing animals". Rather, they argue that animals should be raised and slaughtered in a humane manner, like halal; free of antibiotics, natural feed and instant death.

Since we give living animals human feelings due to our association and contact with them (domesticated pets as opposed to oysters) our slaughering basis is understandably biased, especially since we buy cuts of meat shrink wrapped. So long as our cats and dogs aren't being stolen and served with brioche and apple butter the best one can do is avoid eating foods one finds offensive and not be self righteous.

We should all be so fortunate to have the luxury of arguing over what to eat and which animals have feeling while most of world goes hungry.

[jparrott]

One month, at my high school, we did have a whole display board advertising the Coalition for the Righteous Application of Plants.

[mdt]

One month, at my high school, we did have a whole display board advertising the Coalition for the Righteous Application of Plants.

And there was a huge pot leaf on it, right?

[Tweaked]

You have found evidence that plants are conscious beings that feel pain?  Do share.

So PETA should argue that it's ok to be unethical to unconscious numb life.

Animal Rights Groups such as the Humane Farming Association are not against using living organisms for food or "killing animals".

I think you will find, at the heart of most animal rights groups, esp. the more radical, their agenda is to stop the use of animals as food.

[hm212]

I know this has been discussed at length elsewhere, but can anyone here persuasively argue a defense of foie gras?

Discuss...

I like fois gras. Today Fois Gras, tomorrow chicken and beef.

When I was in High School and college no one would have ever imagined a real crackdown on smoking. Today even I am an ex-smoker. Why don't we just let the market dictate what we can and cannot do.

[crackers]

fwah gwah - frog wah - fwah grass - foy grass - foy grah - foy gwah

This topic has received a lot of attention on eG. Here are links to about a thousand or so posts that cover the universe. Happy reading!

Here is the most extensive one, and there is also this one and this one too---> ***...and if you're still reading, there's this.

Lot's of others too, but those will get you started.

[Waitman]

So PETA should argue that it's ok to be unethical to unconscious numb life.

That PETA stands for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals should give you some guidance regarding their priorities. Nonetheless, I feel certain that PETA members, like all of us with ethics, are tautologically opposed to unethical treatment of plants (or, more or less by definition, anything). Perhaps you could illuminate us with an example or two of how one would go about being "unethical to unconscious numb life."

Though I am no PETA spokesperson, I think it rather obvious that it is difficult to inflict pain on an entity entirely lacking a nervous system -- an apple, say (despite that little scene in The Wizard of Oz), or a blade of wheat. It's probably equally difficult to be cruel to them, since that seems to imply consciousness and a sense of justice in the object of the cruelty. Though I have eaten bitter fruit, it was not bitter because I was eating it.

Thus PETA's focus on our little furred and feathered friends.

[Tweaked]

I am arguing that at its root PETA's position on vegetarianism (and anyone's position on vegetarianism based on "ethical treatment" arguments) is philosophically inconsistent because it values one form of life over another. It's ok to grow, kill, and eat one form of life but not ok to grow, kill, and eat another.

[Al Dente]

I'll flip the question around -- why don't we have to defend everything else that we put on our plate? Why just foie?

We'd then have to defend the breeding of cattle specifically so that they can be slaughtered for food. That they are injected with all kinds of hormones and fed chemically laced food designed to enhance growth so they can be slaughtered that much sooner. That they get herded onto to trucks and trains in impossibly tight quarters to ship them to the slaughter house as cheaply as possible. That they are killed by an electric shock that sometimes doesn't quite do the job so that they wake up hanging upside while someone else tries to slit their throat and bleed them.

Go to an industrial swine farm or chicken hatchery and what is done to get foie pales in comparison.

The fact is though, that a majority of people depend upon the meat from cattle, chicken, and pork for their nutritional needs. I realize it could be argued that everyone could go vegan and avoid this (he says, having just returned from the kitchen where he cubed 200 lbs of pork butt for carnitas), but foie gras doesn't meet any need other than a purely... hmm, hedonistic desire? gluttony? extra income for cardiologists?

standing up for satan,

al

[Waitman]

I am arguing that at its root PETA's position on vegetarianism (and anyone's position on vegetarianism based on "ethical treatment" arguments) is philosophically inconsistent because it values one form of life over another.  It's ok to grow, kill, and eat one form of life but not ok to grow, kill, and eat another.

PETA doesn't argue that it's inherently wrong to grow, kill and eat things. It argues that it's wrong to be cruel -- a stance to which I daresay most of us subscribe.

If valuing one form of life over another is makes one philosohically inconsistent, I must infer that you, too are inconsistent. Or a cannibal.

Link, and link.

[DonRocks]

I would argue that mowing down a field of cows is more cruel than a field of corn.

[i'm going to mow down this field of posts. Please consider abandoning this political discussion. Cheers, Rocks.]

[Tweaked]

I would argue that beyond their public face, PETA's stance on vegetarianism goes far beyond whether or not an animal is raised and killed humanely, that their ultimate goal to end all consumption of meat and meat products...period.

oohhh, Don we are just having some fun...

guess I won't address the cannibalism charges and gnaw on my thumb instead, perhaps with a nice Chianti

[Nadya]

I thought that PETA objects to any consumption of meat and animal products, regardless of whether the animals were put to sleep on feather pillows under cashmere blankets or dismembered with a hacksaw. Don't they object to any kind of meat-eating (bye, beef Delmonico) and skin-wearing (bye, Gucci purses)???

Just for the record, I think either is complete malarkey..

[qwertyy]

From PETA's mission statement:

Founded in 1980, PETA is dedicated to establishing and protecting the rights of all animals. PETA operates under the simple principle that animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment.

[porcupine]

Ethical eating - particularly look at the fifth paragraph in the Overview section.

[clayrae]

i think we should stock up while we still can

Foie

[Barbara]

When The French Market was still in existence in Georgetown, I actually bought a duck liver from them. It cost $55 @lb. and I took it home and made Jean-Louis Palladin's recipe from the first volume of Julia Child's "Cooking with Master Chefs." It was nothing to write home about and I didn't see what all the shouting was about.

What Tom Power does with Foie Gras at Corduroy, however, comes from another planet. That sauce with the chicken Ballotine is a marvel. Not to mention the "Torchon of Foie Gras" he currently has on the menu.

Will duck and goose liver become one of those underground products you have to procure at the risk of jail?

[Poivrot Farci]

Try slow poaching the foie in verjus with concord grapes.

Better yet, marinate it in cointreau with orange zest and confit it (in pieces) in wire-bale mason jars. It will last over 6 months.

I don't know of any goose foie gras prodcution in the US. Raw poultry product importation is illegal. My experience has been that goose livers need to cook longer and are more delicate, almost grainy.

Anyone know of any farmers fattening geese for this winter?

I'll take one for my Danish Christmas.

[legant]

First foie gras, now trans fats! What's next in Chicago's efforts to reduce health costs for its citizens? Can banning McDonalds and Burger King be far behind?

Seriously: what are the economics, for independents, of switching to non-hydrogenated oils? Should restaurants label menu items that are prepared with oils containing artificial trans fats? Or, remove such items from the menu altogether?

[shogun]

First foie gras, now trans fats! What's next in Chicago's efforts to reduce health costs for its citizens? Can banning McDonalds and Burger King be far behind?

Seriously: what are the economics, for independents, of switching to non-hydrogenated oils? Should restaurants label menu items that are prepared with oils containing artificial trans fats? Or, remove such items from the menu altogether?

McDonalds and Burger King probably have better lobbiest than the fois gras people. People would never stand for it. Fois gras is a weird, expensive treat for the rich French sympathizers. On the other hand, banning McDonalds is practically unthinkable. If you do that, the terrorists will have already won. Imagine the public outcry.

We should be able to make out own decisions about food! We still support the fois gras ban, though! We're told it's cruel! Still, don't mess with OUR food!

[LaShanta]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/14/foie.gras.ap/index.html

I was totally alarmed when I heard about this! Is the process really THAT harmful to the animals??? I do think that this may be a "slippery slope".... what next??

And do you think it is much ado about nothing that is resulting only in making Chicago look silly? I am especially interested in what the Rockwellian chefs think.

[DCMark]

Fuck 'em.

Personally, I would be happy to open a mobile (like a hot dog stand) cart serving foie gras.

What the business does a city council have making those rules (and don't say health concerns)? Why not do something important like ban nuclear weapons in the city.[

[qwertyy]

My bro--the consummate foie lover--sent me this article too, saying, "I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but foie gras is being targteted by spineless "animal rights" activists and is slowly being out-lawed around the country.

"The activists (whose anti-foie gras tactics have included threatening chefs' families) targeted foie farmers because they don't have the resources to defend themselves.

"The production of chicken is the most inhumane food production possible, but you don't see the anti-foie contigent going after chicken farmers because those farmers could actually defend themselves in court."

[Poivrot Farci]

First foie gras, now trans fats!

A tiny nordic country banned any food product containing more than 2% trans fat a few years ago. Easy for a population smaller than that of New York City (twice Chicago), but possible, and better for you.

[Heather]

A tiny nordic country banned any food product containing more than 2% trans fat a few years ago. Easy for a population smaller than that of New York City (twice Chicago), but possible, and better for you.

New York is considering something like this. I wonder how they would enforce it - random Crisco raids?

[Nadya]

Yeah Chicago!!!!