DaveO

Having visited this place two months ago, and having been overwhelmed by nostalgia in that visit, I was looking forward to returning, which I did last night. It is afterall a pub. Not fine dining, and possibly known for any special meals. But it was excellent. I came in with a group of 6, late after a meeting. They have a Tuesday night burger special. The waitress came by and immediately informed us we were running out of time as it was about 9:15, 15 minutes before the special ends. Good service on her part to both inform us of the special and that time was limited. Hey, excellent burgers and great value for the Tuesday night special. Large, juicy, tasty, nice extras and frankly thoughtful service on behalf of the waitress. I think she got the orders mixed up...but the diners didn't really care and everything worked out and everyone was pleased with the visit. Makes me pleased to see, what I consider a blast from the past, still operating in DC and doing at least a decent job. Kudo's to the Black Rooster. Probably an excellent happy hour option and a solid choice for pub type environments...and yes, excellent hamburgers even without the price special.

LOL. love that thread title. ....from my post above....great ambiance..... not much to say abt the food though!!!!

I read the article: Further down in the article is this statement from one of the owners of one of the establishments where the "tudes" of the mixologists could be described as lacking: As an owner that attitude would make me sick. No sale, no customer, no warm and fuzzy's, no positive word of mouth. Meanwhile the rent comes do, need to buy products, pay salaries, insurance, etc etc etc. I suppose that attitude might work in a private club or for a place that is so demonstrably exclusive in every aspect that the "unsuspecting" never venture through the doors, but for 99% of establishments out there it just doesn't work.

darkstar: I've been fishing around the internet for response to the phenomena. What I saw is evidently fairly common. hot groupons/ LS's generate a lot of awareness. Evidently there are businesses that then use the web and other sources to counter market against those hot groupons. To answer your question...did it take from our sales??? I can never know that one for sure. We track that stuff all the time. We are also pretty aware when we win customers that could have gone to competitors. I suspect we lost a bit. As to the competitors income...frankly I didn't follow the actual "so called bought" so I don't know that answer. We do follow all those social media metrics very closely. then we tie those w/ the real numbers...leads, orders, sales, costs. For one type of business those metrics from the web track activity REAL $$ activity very closely. That is true in several markets. For another type of business, slightly less closely. I don't know how they apply against the restaurant business. I have not seen an explosion of activity that replicates the Groupon/LS phenomena in its combination of speed and size. I do understand the consequences: among them loss of margins and being slammed for service in a way that can negate the hoped for value in bringing new customers to your business. One analysis suggests that existing customers often take advantage of groupons. Ugh....that does nothing for increasing awareness. I still think these things are powerful, but getting back to Don's original observation it appears the original IPO was crazy overstated and the two big companies that produce these things....groupon and LS have a long way to go to achieve profitability. I'm pretty geeky on this stuff trying to use it to increase revenues. If I were in the food business I'd probably end up looking at all these groupons, see which one's were most closely related to my menu, see which one's worked....and then see if I could replicate something like that w/ out giving away the $$ house to groupon or LS. lol

Some Musings on Groupons The following are some thoughts, commentary and observations on Groupons (and LS's). The other week a competitor to one of our businesses ran a groupon. As a business we advertise in google using adwords. For those who know Adwords, we use both exact phrase and Broad Phrase advertising. Broad phrase enables us to capture most of the marketing phrases that everyone searches on over the course of time. As we haven't used groupons to date it was the 2nd time I was struck by the incredible visibility the Groupon creates. I see that in a reflection of Impressions of searches by google users related to the business. We caught the huge explosion of searches for this Groupon. In this case it was relatively GIGANTIC. In one week there were an extraordinary volume of searches for the particular groupon relative to our busines. It was 4 times the volume of the normal #1 search phrase and 7 times the volume of the #2 phrase and extraordinarily more voluminous than so many other relevant search phrases. Similarly there were an unusually high volume of google searches for the name of the business that ran the Groupon. The last time I witnessed this there was a similar explosion of visibility for the little known business that used a groupon. What I find astounding is the explosion of visibility Groupons and LS's provide, pretty much unlike any other marketing mechanism I've encountered. They are truly huge. I'm very aware they also create problems for the businesses, while they are often great for the consumers. In most cases, (but not all) the discounts are real!!!. Good for the consumers. OTOH, the margins to the businesses are severely cut. They can be cut so severely the businesses LOSE money on the groupons. Another problem for high volume groupon sellers, is that they can be so overwhelmed by the sudden surge in business they can't adequately service the new customers....and ultimately don't retain them. One analysis suggests that for restaurants Groupons have done nothing to increase total dining...but simply shifted the money around and cut $$ considerably. Again--> good for consumers, not good for the restaurants. OTOH, the total volume of groupons and LS's increased dramatically in 2012 over 2011. They are popular. Meanwhile going back to Don's original observation...Groupon is worth dramatically less than the original IPO. It will have a hard time matching that value in the foreseeable future. Its still generating losses. Still groupons are amazing marketing phenomena.

Holy crap. I need a couple a long hard shots after seeing that. (and I mean hard--taste is irrelevant!!!)

The staff of our school made suggestions as to where to eat in Courthouse and nearby Clarendon if you are visiting the school. Staffers agree with the consensus opinions of even the esteemed foodies at DR.com, promoting Minh's, Java Shack, and Earls. We even reference the threads here for Earl's and Java Shack. The funny thing is with so many visitors, food is always a big topic...and we'll see a lot of folks take up suggestions for Earl's, the pho at Minh's and the sandwiches from the NY Express. Its certainly not a fine dining list, but one more oriented toward quick meals, drinks near our location and a big staff support for Cava in Clarendon. Me: I'm currently in favor of the funky food and flavors at Bayou Bakery, among other choices and still like the Jersey styled Pizzas at Toscana Grill or the amazing sandwiches and turkey chili at Earl's.

....and as I was reading this thread, thinking fondly of both Roy Rogers and Gino's, what I had considered to be reliable and sometimes tasty fast food alternatives I came across this description of Roy's current offerings. ...bubble burst.

I saw an ad on google adwords related to the business of our school below. It was for a groupon for an online bartending course. http://www.groupon.com/deals/bartending-college-online-44?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=US_DT_SEA_GGL_TXT_TTT_SR_CBP_CH1_NBR_k*bartending%20college%20online_m*b_d*US-RTC-Washington-Dc_g*bartending-college-online-44_c*18550058776_ap*1s1_sa*20130121_ea*20130127_xa*20140123 The code above designates that the ad was related to Washington Dc. I've got to set my computer location for google in different cities to see if the ad is running elsewhere. They are running ads to get attention. "bartending school" is a tiny niche search phrase. clicking on the ad probably costs them a $1 or so. going to the ad also opens the door to a lot of other groupons though. One might hit the ad for the online course but they are introduced to a lot of other deals. I suppose it ends up making groupon money. I saw the ad several days ago and have been tracking it. Not tons of sales. If they are just running the ad in this area,....actually not bad activity. If they are running the ads nationally....miserable sales volume . Meanwhile for the provider.....probably a nice deal. At maximum it costs him a couple of bucks to send out the "online course" so he is getting widespread groupon salesiesness and advertising....and the groupon cut really doesn't matter. but aside from the google adwords clicks it doesn't really cost groupon more to run ads this way. The accompanying groupons had different levels of activity...from active to no sales. Felt bad for the Inn at Deep Creek Lake--> nothing...no groupon action. They don't all work. At the least they are exploring endless ways to get the business working. and ultimately turn a profit.

Aggregate value of groupon deals SOLD in the US last year was 50% higher than in 2011. I suppose they accomplished this in the midst of increased competition. http://screenwerk.com/2013/02/27/groupon-q4-disappoints-some-but-take-a-look-at-mobile/ A lot of deals are being sold. Its in the $billions of dollars. Still I think its a struggle to find how to do this profitably in the midst of lots of competition and high costs. Going back to the opening thread and Don's question.....just doesn't look like a great stock deal to me...and certainly not off the original IPO. of course if it plunges and rebounds as a stock that is a different story.

@bonmot: CFFolks only works for lunch. It is a special sandwich place. Not open for dinner.

DarkStar: Good point. I don't know the volume of repeat business. That is a good measure for one element of the business, but its not the only one. With or w/out significant repeat business total volume of deals is UP. People do like them. I do know one smb (not a restaurant) that keeps using and using groupons and LS's. They work for him and his businesses. He has plenty of inventory and these mass emails, do get him business, beyond his ability to spread that word so widely. The cost thing always grabs me. On the LS thread I could just feel the weight of all those salaries and the pressures to get revenues to cover them and make money. In DC, I used to do commercial real estate. I just think they were dumb, maybe naive. Bad move, expensive...but still probably small relative to salaries, at least IMHO. Business Churn, as might be the case w/ groupon and LS is always a concern. It doesn't seem to be measured well. I track some others kinds of things in general relative to local businesses (beyond restaurants). There are some marketing businesses that just churn through customers like nothing I've seen...but they are also growing revenues, wall street likes them....and somehow that churn thing isn't killing them so...who knows. The operators really know the end result of the Open Table and other reservation systems much better than I do as a consumer. From what little I get in feedback...its like a love/hate thing. Those reservations are simply beautiful...OTOH the costs are not something the operators like.--but I suppose that could also be a price point issue. If the same costs apply to the operator apply to a $40 reservation versus a $300 reservation...well then open table is that much better for pricier restaurants and doesn't take too much of a hit. We have some businesses that (knock on wood) are running pretty well...so we haven't had to use groupon or LS...and some others in more remote areas where G and LS simply aren't as powerful as they are here. One other issue that has hit smb's across the board is the "shock" that hits when business volume explodes from a groupon and the business can't service the rush clients well. That ends up with consumer complaints and the exact opposite of what the smb was hoping for. That alone has to account for one piece of the churn element. The last thing I noticed was how certain smb's/restaurants/you name it gained relatively huge visibility in conjunction with a groupon. Search volume by business name explodes when the groupon hits. Still deals are an attractive element of groupons and LS's. I've seen them referenced here and in other review sites as they drive customers to restaurants they might not have hit otherwise. So many issues. Certainly a lot of churn. I got struck by the cost side of the equation. OTOH so many consumers (myself included) love love love deals. In my book if somebody(s) figure out how to deliver a lot of deals at remarkably low costs they have a winner.

If I were walking and had no more than 1 hour I'd only look at places at R Street,(1700 block Connecticut avenue) and North which in my mind rules out a lot of places. Sette Osteria for pizza works within that geography, distance, time frame and back and pizza is pretty quick after all. Now for dinner that is a different story. Much more time Nora's is within walking distance, and while I haven't been there in over a year it was still terrific, IMHO and if only from the reviews here, DGS is close, and the reviews here are terrific with it hosting a somewhat unique menu.

A while back I found this thread from reddit from a laid off LivingSocial worker to be an interesting insight into the problems these two businesses are having. Particularly some of the comments speak to the financial pressures the 2 businesses face. They speak to the volumes of deals, and the pressures to generate "deals" that both generate lots of sales and high $ volumes per sale and in total for either LS or Groupon: http://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/140hoq/laid_off_from_livingsocial_ama/ Internally, its expensive and hard to generate consistently enough revenues to cover all the expenses. Who could have foreseen all that? Who saw all the competition for deals coming from everywhere under the sun? Who saw different methods to generate deals and get them seen widely done by different competitors, all cutting on the "deal value" of any individual groupon or LS? Who knew? Its tough for everyone to make a profit from restaurants to the businesses that use groupons to the Groupons and LivingSocials of the world. Meanwhile according to one recent statistic I saw, last year more of these deal coupons were used in the US than in any previous year. I didn't see anything on the total value of all those deals, or the take for a Groupon or a LS....but consumers like them. Consumers like making reservations through a "deal" service, wherein you can accumulate points or rewards and get something back, whether its mileage or other benefits. The trick and hard part for a Groupon or LS is to do so profitably. The interesting thing on the Reddit thread had to do with the efforts of the teams that generated the Groupons or LS's, the pressures and what had to be the costs. Aggregate salary costs have had to be high. On top of that it appears Groupon and LS have been pushed, or allowed themselves to take on huge levels of expansion...again expensive. Public companies like groupon sort of have to do that to try and achieve growth. Our various businesses for several markets have been called upon by groupon and LS salespeople in a variety of markets including DC. We've been visited by sales people. That is a lot of sales people making a lot of calls, spending a lot of time, running up a lot of hours for which they are paid. We never bought. We've gotten close, we just haven't bought....yet. On the business side, we have to discount some services....take a hit on it....and above that see the Groupons and the LS's take their cut, further discounting our revenues. Is it worth it or not? Every buyers makes their own decisions. But its tough all around. Still people like deals. The groupon type companies that ultimately figure out how to generate deals at least internal cost are the one's that will survive. Apparently to date, nobody has figured that out. It must be challenging and difficult. I did enjoy reading the fired CEO's memo/email to staff. Funny, refreshing and clearly he never got to the profit making answers. I just don't think its all that easy.

having had less than formal breakfast meetings in the area I agree w/ goodeats above that Bayou Bakery is a nice choice with yummy alternatives and reasonably private and roomy booths for meetings. I like Corner Bakery in Courthouse also (good booths and wifi). But in general for something more formal, accommodating and professionally business I'd suggest the hotels. Plus the hotels provide waiter service, in general: Bayou Bakery is self serve off the counter and at Corner Bakery you order at the register and a staffer delivers the meal(s)

Good topic. Reminds me of an episode in "adventures in cooking"....from my own experiences. Having gone to college and having been forced to get an apartment with others after our first year, I found myself with several other guys, not one of whom had any experience in the kitchen. Thus our 2nd year was all about: school, learning to cook, and being the guinea pigs for a group of novice cooks, all of whom were relying on cookbooks and moms. Possibly the worst disaster of the year was my own initial effort at applesauce pulled from one cookbook. (and to think...so much applesauce available at so many supermarkets) The recipe's two main ingredients were apple juice and flour...and whatever else. You ask...where were the apples??? I have to ask that myself at this date...but back then...what did I know??? Easily the worst dish of the year. One I had forgotten until seeing this title. That applesauce recipe is not one you would want to follow in any of the what am I simmering or cooking threads all of which are simply fascinating.

LOL you have to try the chicken alamo at HT (when made correctly) then issue your verdict

Today I just spoke w/ a former GM at one of the Hard Times. I was asking questions that I think reflected some of the concerns in this thread over time. One of them had to do with corporate controls and consistency w/ regard to franchise operations and inconsistency versus owned operations. She mentioned that the corporate structure and top guys have changed over time. Evidently HT has varied in its controls over time. Their current goal is to try and maintain consistency. She also said that when there is a problem go to the GM in the restaurant and let them know. Then I hit my pet peeve; the aforementioned chicken alamo. She twirled and said, yes its one of her favorite dishes and the fave of her brother. I brought up my concern how some SOB's and different operators over the years baked the ranch dressing w/ the spaghetti and killed the contrast between spicy and bland, hot and cold. Oh boy, she knew exactly what I described. If you go for the chicken alamo in any HT....make sure they don't bake the ranch dressing w/ the spaghetti. Jeez that is like painting graffiti on the Mona Lisa. As to the chili...HT's call to fame...she defends it. She thinks it far better than most restaurant chili's in the area...but its not the best of the best!!

Sigh.....if only they had developed that 20, 25, 30 years ago....life would have been a lot more pleasant and less problematic. Sigh

They are generally nice. I was thinking about this food cart b/c they received several kudo's from our staff. I looked them up on the web. No website. The best info is from yelp (I hate to say). Actually I think the reviews are reasonably informative and true to my experience: http://www.yelp.com/biz/new-york-express-food-cart-arlington. The one review that cracked me up was somebody referencing the nearby guys at Brooklyn Bagel. They are very nice guys, and not intimidating at all. Though on weekends Brooklyn Bagel is all business with huge lines, and no time to chat.

New York Express Food Cart in front of Courthouse in Arlington On Clarendon Boulevard: Actually I agree with Yelpers on this one: http://www.yelp.com/biz/new-york-express-food-cart-arlington and its good they have it referenced on the web. not the best ever NY styled sandwiches....but pretty darn good!!! and yes the two guys who operate it are quite nice . We are adding a piece on our website about places to eat around our little business (referenced below) (corner of Wilson and Barton Street in Arlington) on the recommendations of our staff. They are here early to late and do everything from breakfast to dinner...and definitely drinks. Since we get way way more than 10,000 visits a year from folks and we do make food recommendations to students and visitors it makes sense. New York Express made the recommendation list on the advice of one staffer. Frankly we sporadically bring in lunches from various nearby places and that is one of them and it does get kudo's. The staff is not a "big bucks group" but they have a keen sense for value...and it turns out some of the suggestions are completely in keeping with the accumulated wisdom of DR.com......

.....and for those with both outrageous curiosity and a willingness to test the limits of their bladders.....a taste test of all 127 flavors!!!! http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/10/soda-we-try-all-100-flavors-from-the-coke-freestyle-machine.html

Like Ilaine above I too like your restaurants, food and overall operations. Regardless, the above quote didn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy about the volume of people who lost jobs. OTOH, I was a commercial RE broker years ago and leased restaurants. I've enjoyed many of your comments in some of the threads of the past and noted some of those comments that reflected tremendous business smarts (I think you referenced how ONE STRONG day can or should pay for the month's rent.---that is tremendously savvy!!!!!! IMHO and experience). As to the specifics of a landlord/tenant dispute....the one thing I know is that I don't know any of the details of your situation....though I certainly experienced a wide variety of landlord/tenant disputes in the past--including some doozies!!!) I also know how tough it is to make all ends meet in a business and how one has to watch all parts of the P&L and cash flow to make a business work....and each operator struggles through that in ways that nobody else understands or appreciates. (I certainly can't appreciate your items of revenues, costs and cash flow). I'll still eat at your operations. But there is another side of that equation in lost jobs. Never a happy occasion in my book.

Thank you for the generous lead in, Don. Our school has a current data base of well over 10,000 graduates of the bartending school going back some years. We are currently in touch with well over 1,000 graduates of the Bartending School. This current list includes both new grads and people with experience (up to and over a decade). If an establishment is looking for bartending staff we are a free source to employers to contact our data base. All graduates are speed and efficiency trained, have TAM (techniques of Alcohol Management) alcohol management training, are trained in customer service techniques, and are taught to bartend from the perspective of management, with pouring accuracy, honesty, and efficiency emphasized. We are growing and refining the data base of contacts. Best form of contact is simply to contact us at our placement office 703 841 9757 or email us at pbsplacement@gmail.com. We are able to mass contact graduates or selectively contact grads dependent on your needs. We are currently growing and refining the contact data base to be able to provide a greater detail of service. For a wide range of restaurants, bars, clubs and hotels the service has worked extremely well. The employers will ultimately need to interview and choose applicants. We train them...we don't employ them. So you will have to use your judgement. The school has also provided large scale staff training in TAM. Various employers including Ridgewells, Park at 14th, Club Love, and various hotels have used this service. Lastly we can provide staff bartending training for F&B establishments either to upgrade skills for valued employees or cross training. We will do this on a "professional discount" basis. The services are region wide as we have large attendance throughout DC, Suburban VA and MD, and have provided staffing help to establishments from Southern MD to Fredericksburg, throughout the DC area and into Baltimore. Finally, and surprisingly to me, there are at least several accomplished known active craft artisan bartenders/mixologists among our grads. More power to them. They certainly don't learn that in this school. We are focused on getting people started... LOL (again. Thanks, for the generous lead in, Don)

An example of how review sites get twisted There was a story from late 2011 that shows how review sites get twisted. I'm recopying from Dec, 2011 from the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/alabama-immigration-law-deli-owner_n_1022535.html Basically the owner of a deli in Birmingham Alabama spoke out about the problems with the Alabama immigration law, at that time. As referenced in the article the guy's restaurant started getting a huge volume of attack reviews: Then the first copy of the Huff Post article came out and the guy's site started getting positive reviews. You can see the review volume at its google local page here: https://plus.google.com/102137604670770131103/about?hl=en The people who were pissed off about the owner's politics ripped the restaurant for hair in the soup and illegal aliens working in the restaurant. The people who supported the owner said it was the best deli south of NYC. It appears most of those old reviews are still up. The big commercial review sites can get twisted!!!!