ktmoomau Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 This is a privileged and rather trite conversation to have- and I will admit that up front. But for the very good home cooks and bakers on this site, I just have to ask: Do you find there is a diminished value in eating out the better you get as a cook? I ask this after going to Hank's pasta bar the other night. I had a very good pasta, I really liked my meal and at $19 the pasta wasn't expensive, but it wasn't cheap either. But sometimes now when I go to restaurants that aren't cheap and eat things I know I could likely make- I think to myself about value of that meal to me. And I find it harder and harder to find places that I think are really good value to me- and they have to be able to something better than I can do it. I need to be able to walk away not thinking yes that had this and this and this, and if I just.... Going to places that have things I am not good at preparing at home, or can't prepare at home yield very different feelings for me on value. I thought maybe I was just getting old and curmudgeonous in my thirties, my McCartney side of the family develops curmudgeon tendencies very early in life. And I thought maybe I eat out too often and therefore take it for granted. But I actually probably make more meals at home than many of my friends do and they are much less picky than I am. So then I thought about the fact that the meals I make at home are much more complex than they used to be and likely much more complex than what most of my friends make, as I have developed more skills and explored different types of cuisine. I thought maybe that is where this feeling of diminished value is coming from. I just wanted to see if the other home cooks on here ever felt that? 1
SilverBullitt Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 I feel the same way. I wonder if this is like knowing how a magician does the tricks- once you know how they're done and it's within your level of competence, you kick about how much you spent on admission. I wasn't sure if you are including the time factor to prepare the dish in your value assessment, but it's a big component in my calculation. That is, even if I could make a good version of the dish, if it would take a long time, I'm more likely to perceive value in eating those dishes at a restaurant. 1
ktmoomau Posted November 3, 2016 Author Posted November 3, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 0:15 PM, SilverBullitt said: I wasn't sure if you are including the time factor to prepare the dish in your value assessment, but it's a big component in my calculation. That is, even if I could make a good version of the dish, if it would take a long time, I'm more likely to perceive value in eating those dishes at a restaurant. Certainly, although now if I can sous-vide something even if it takes a long time to do- I can do it and am not worried about leaving the oven on- and I know that many chefs are probably just throwing bags with dates on when they come out into their sous vide machine (like short ribs for example). But time is a huge very important factor- I love a really good lasagna. I hate making it (Anthony Bourdain be damned, I think you do need to pre-cook the noodles)- too much time for a weeknight. (And I don't have a large freezer, so I can't do the I will make all this and then freeze one thing.) Certainly ingredients, time and effort in sourcing and making something play a huge role in whether it's worth it for me to make versus eat out.
farmer john Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 I am a pretty good cook and I feel like my appreciation of eating out has actually increased as I have become more skillful in the kitchen. I am more capable of recognizing the difference between a good meal and a great meal due to having at least a modicum of skill myself. My rule for eating out for the most part is that i don't order dishes which I can prepare well myself. ...and heck yes you boil the noodles first! 6
DaveO Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 11:04 AM, ktmoomau said: This is a privileged and rather trite conversation to have- and I will admit that up front. But for the very good home cooks and bakers on this site, I just have to ask: Do you find there is a diminished value in eating out the better you get as a cook? I ask this after going to Hank's pasta bar the other night. I had a very good pasta, I really liked my meal and at $19 the pasta wasn't expensive, but it wasn't cheap either. But sometimes now when I go to restaurants that aren't cheap and eat things I know I could likely make- I think to myself about value of that meal to me. And I find it harder and harder to find places that I think are really good value to me- and they have to be able to something better than I can do it. I need to be able to walk away not thinking yes that had this and this and this, and if I just.... Going to places that have things I am not good at preparing at home, or can't prepare at home yield very different feelings for me on value. I thought maybe I was just getting old and curmudgeonous Possibly curmudgneous has hit me. I'm an okay cook, having been sporadically working at it for many decades. I do some dishes very well. I slowly add a couple of more dishes every year or two. I'm mediocre when I don't concentrate or focus which is much of or most of the time. I also have this little calculator in my head which has been at work for decades. I'll compare simpler dishes wherein I can "cost" them at my retail basis and then estimate the markup. I've been doing that for decades. Simply markups have gone up over the decades. I don't begrudge the restaurants. Costs in many cases have skyrocketed; rent, other occupancy costs, personnel, insurance, dozens of items that get thrown into overhead. Costs have skyrocketed and competition is overwhelming. But if its curmudgenous and/or the markup factor I simply often feel I'm experiencing less value. I've mostly stopped commenting on restaurants. I've been regularly disappointed at a variety of places including places that are very highly rated here or elsewhere. So I'm not a great cook, but for whatever reasons or combination of reasons, I get a lot less satisfaction out of dining out. Some of it relates to cooking vs dining out as you referenced above. 1
dcandohio Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 Great topic. My friends and I sometimes say that the best meals we eat are the meals we cook. But there are lots of things I don't cook, and that is where eating out becomes exciting for me. I never fry at home, so good fried chicken or fried fish in a restaurant is a treat. I've tried, and have some good results, but I never make Thai food or Indian food at home that is as delicious as what I can get at my favorite restaurants. I don't have a high temperature woodfired pizza oven. I don't bake cakes or bread. But I do a very good job at a lot of one pot or more rustic kinds of dishes like soups and stews and chili. My mom made a fantastic gumbo, and mine is getting very close. I feel competent at brining and grilling or smoking. I can roast a chicken, and cook a piece of salmon on a cedar plank, and grill a steak on a hot skillet on the grill. So I am inevitably disappointed by soup or chili at a restaurant. Pasta and sauce have to be truly superb for me to see good value. But serve me a delicious house baked bread, or a fragrant plate of curry, or a good quality pizza, and I am grateful. 4
reedm Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 3:06 PM, dcandohio said: Great topic. My friends and I sometimes say that the best meals we eat are the meals we cook. But there are lots of things I don't cook, and that is where eating out becomes exciting for me. I never fry at home, so good fried chicken or fried fish in a restaurant is a treat. I've tried, and have some good results, but I never make Thai food or Indian food at home that is as delicious as what I can get at my favorite restaurants. I don't have a high temperature woodfired pizza oven. I don't bake cakes or bread. But I do a very good job at a lot of one pot or more rustic kinds of dishes like soups and stews and chili. My mom made a fantastic gumbo, and mine is getting very close. I feel competent at brining and grilling or smoking. I can roast a chicken, and cook a piece of salmon on a cedar plank, and grill a steak on a hot skillet on the grill. So I am inevitably disappointed by soup or chili at a restaurant. Pasta and sauce have to be truly superb for me to see good value. But serve me a delicious house baked bread, or a fragrant plate of curry, or a good quality pizza, and I am grateful. We could be culinary twins, since that is my take as well. I'd rather have a professional prepare a nice piece of fish as well. Apart from salmon, it's too easy to overcook. 1
dcandohio Posted November 4, 2016 Posted November 4, 2016 I also cook and freeze...being a singleton these days, I want the food but I can't eat it 5 days I a row. So I make a batch of something, eat it once or twice, and freeze the rest in meal-sized portions in zip-lock bags that I freeze flat on cookie sheets. I then stack or "file" the meals in my smallish freezer. When I am with friends at a mediocre restaurant and they are praising the food I'm thinking, "I have tomato soup and meatballs in the freezer. Or chili. Or pork and hatch chile stew." And I feel somewhat peeved! I actually look forward to looking through the freezer to select something to eat after a challenging day. One of my friends said that if the bad sh!t comes down, and we have to shelter in place, he's coming to my house because we'll eat well from the freezer till the zombies find us! On the other hand, I do enjoy the luxury of a competent server, and being able to have a selection, and not having to clean up after a meal. And I'm not creative with cocktails so booze options make dining out attractive, too. 2
Pool Boy Posted November 4, 2016 Posted November 4, 2016 4 hours ago, farmer john said: I am a pretty good cook and I feel like my appreciation of eating out has actually increased as I have become more skillful in the kitchen. I am more capable of recognizing the difference between a good meal and a great meal due to having at least a modicum of skill myself. My rule for eating out for the most part is that i don't order dishes which I can prepare well myself. ...and heck yes you boil the noodles first! This. One example, for me, is lobster bisque. Is lobster bisque hard to make? Not really. It takes time and patience and some attentiveness. And for that, it is a pain in the ass to me, mentally. So I never make it at home anymore. When I see it on the menu, it immediately makes the 'possibles' list starting in my head about what to order as a starter for just this one reason alone (well, among others lol). One example of a thing I almost never order out - a burger. 1
weezy Posted November 4, 2016 Posted November 4, 2016 I don't know if cooking well diminishes the value of eating out, but like others, I'd rather spend my money on things that I can't make (or make well) at home. in my case, also, my sister lives with me during the school year and has no palate for high-end dining (she truly thinks Arby's jalapeno poppers are the epitome of marvelous taste & texture) nor does she like to spend money on dining out. If we go somewhere together she gets a glass of water and literally tells me "you get what you want and I'll eat half of yours." Not pay for half of mine, just eat it. Other folks, I eat out with, we both order and share around, so her approach really puts a damper on my enjoyment of exploring a menu and thus dining out. 1
ktmoomau Posted November 4, 2016 Author Posted November 4, 2016 I love all the responses here. I really like to see the opinions on this and the things you don't like to cook at home. Yes- fried food is a joy of eating out, even though I could fry something at home- cleaning up after that, disposing of oil, etc are all things I don't want to do. Pizza, Thai and Indian- I am getting better at, but still yes, so much better at a restaurant than at home. I have been having better luck mastering Vietnamese dishes at home for some reason, maybe because I really like Vietnamese food. For me- Korean BBQ and other high smoke grilled items I cannot make in my condo, are things I enjoy going and getting out, as well. Sushi- I just can't master good sushi rice at home, but I need to give it a better honest effort, I will admit. Items of really fresh seafood- only because it's hard to source good items for that in that I would need to get to the store more often and Hubby doesn't always like seafood dishes, so easier to get them out at dinner sometimes. 1
SilverBullitt Posted November 4, 2016 Posted November 4, 2016 I grew up eating Indian food and have been very impressed by the variety of the packaged spice mixes available in the Indian markets. I feel I can replicate the quality of the food at a mid-priced restaurant using these mixes.
ktmoomau Posted November 4, 2016 Author Posted November 4, 2016 1 hour ago, SilverBullitt said: I grew up eating Indian food and have been very impressed by the variety of the packaged spice mixes available in the Indian markets. I feel I can replicate the quality of the food at a mid-priced restaurant using these mixes. Well you can cook me dinner anytime then! I should try making naan in a cast iron skillet, it looks pretty darn easy in terms of dough, and I love bread experiments.
Tweaked Posted November 4, 2016 Posted November 4, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 3:06 PM, dcandohio said: Great topic. My friends and I sometimes say that the best meals we eat are the meals we cook. But there are lots of things I don't cook, and that is where eating out becomes exciting for me. I never fry at home, so good fried chicken or fried fish in a restaurant is a treat. I've tried, and have some good results, but I never make Thai food or Indian food at home that is as delicious as what I can get at my favorite restaurants. I don't have a high temperature woodfired pizza oven. I don't bake cakes or bread. But I do a very good job at a lot of one pot or more rustic kinds of dishes like soups and stews and chili. My mom made a fantastic gumbo, and mine is getting very close. I feel competent at brining and grilling or smoking. I can roast a chicken, and cook a piece of salmon on a cedar plank, and grill a steak on a hot skillet on the grill. So I am inevitably disappointed by soup or chili at a restaurant. Pasta and sauce have to be truly superb for me to see good value. But serve me a delicious house baked bread, or a fragrant plate of curry, or a good quality pizza, and I am grateful. Andrea Nguyen's Tofu Book has a killer recipe for Pad Thai, especially if you go all in and make the marinated tofu (which takes two days, but that is mostly due to the marination process, otherwise it is super easy). Seriously, once you get the technique down, you'll make pad thai better than just about any Thai restaurant. --- I think I fall in the same boat as some people above. I'm a fairly adept home cook, but I live with a mostly vegetarian pescetarian, so that is what I cook at home. But when we go out and there's some nice looking cured meat product on the menu, we know I'm ordering some. Properly curing meat isn't very practical in a DC condo, esp. with a vegetarian/pescetarian about, and I've never developed the skill to do it properly myself, so I certainly appreciate a restaurant that does. 1
DIShGo Posted November 6, 2016 Posted November 6, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 2:07 PM, farmer john said: I am a pretty good cook and I feel like my appreciation of eating out has actually increased as I have become more skillful in the kitchen. I am more capable of recognizing the difference between a good meal and a great meal due to having at least a modicum of skill myself. My rule for eating out for the most part is that i don't order dishes which I can prepare well myself. ...and heck yes you boil the noodles first! I agree completely. I think being a pretty good cook with some knowledge of the time and effort involved in making a great meal increases my appreciation of what a chef prepares for me. When I look at a menu, my first thought is always, can I make this well myself, and if the answer is "yes," I don't order it. There are a exceptions to this rule, however. For example, I was hesitant to order the roasted chicken at Kinship because I can roast a pretty good chicken myself, but I absolutely loved their version and I would order it again. I even tried to mimic the flavors the next time I roasted a chicken at home. And no no-bake lasagna noodles for me! Always boil them!
PollyG Posted November 6, 2016 Posted November 6, 2016 I'm a pretty decent home cook, but we get horribly pressed for time, so going out is often an option. There are a few things I enjoy eating but rarely order out because I prepare them better. I recall one meal where I was muttering about going back into the kitchen and teaching them how to grill their damned asparagus.
KeithA Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 I love cooking at home and try to challenge myself to try new things and more complex techniques. However, I still love eating out for all the reasons mentioned - the use of more creative/unusual/harder to source ingredients, the time factor, but the most pleasure eating out is to discover new flavor or dish combinations that show off the creativity of the chefs. Some of the "creativity" may simply be merely new to me but authentic dishes from other countries. Nevertheless, eating out gives you a chance to explore what is different from what I make at home. Still, I do agree that as I become a better cook, I find I like my versions of dishes better than restaurant versions. That is also the fun of cooking - you get to tailor the recipes to your personal likes. For instance, I love onions - they are so flavorful and versatile - so I add them to lots of my dishes, probably more than others would like. I'm picky and find most pita bread in the area to be so so - when I made my own for the first time - it was great. Part of the enjoyment was not only the taste and texture more suited to my preference but the sense of accomplishment. Lately, I've gone to my roots and haven been cooking a lot of Jewish deli food (I make mean pickles and knishes that I like much better than you can buy) but certain items are too much of a hassle in time/ingredients (at least so far). Till I get the courage, I'll go to DGS for pastrami/corned beef instead of spending a week potentially ruining brisket taking up precious fridge space while it cures in special-ordered pink salt. For all of the joy you get from cooking, you also though have to deal with the failures - my chana masala (not that difficult to make) is only good whereas many Indian restaurants make it better. So I continue to cook more and more at home and eat out as much as I can but like others to try new things or to enjoy those things I haven't tried at home or haven't yet mastered. 1
DonRocks Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 [Chiming in to say that this is a wonderful conversation. Carry on, please.]
farmer john Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 11 hours ago, KeithA said: my chana masala (not that difficult to make) is only good whereas many Indian restaurants make it better. same here
ktmoomau Posted November 7, 2016 Author Posted November 7, 2016 13 hours ago, KeithA said: I'm picky and find most pita bread in the area to be so so - when I made my own for the first time - it was great. I've been wanting to make both pita and naan at home. Do you have a good recipe for the pita you could point me to?
DonRocks Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 I would write Gladys Abi-Najm at Lebanese Taverna Market, and see if she'll share hers with you. Both she and Grace are *extremely* nice people - tell them you're a friend of mine, and that I referred you to them (we're not great friends or anything, but we each know the other). Likewise if you know Mike Isabella, see if he'll slip you the recipe from Zaytinya, or if that has been published anywhere in the past - their bread would actually be better at home, as it's sometimes a touch undercooked at the restaurant. This eleven-year-old Washington Post Food Chat (remember Judy Havemann?) has some information. Joe Yonan is also a vegan and seems to do a lot of home cooking, so you may want to write him as well.
KeithA Posted November 7, 2016 Posted November 7, 2016 I used the Zahav cookbook recipe: Oct 14, 2015 - "Michael Solomonov Shares Israeli Recipes and Recollections in 'Zahav'" by Gayle L. Squires on forward.com and got some good tips from Serious Eats: Aug, 2015 - "The 7 Rules of Perfect Pita Bread" by Yvonne Ruperti on seriouseats.com this pita came out rather fluffy with a nice pocket which is how I like it. I'm not a big fan of the Lebanese style super thin and crispy pita you find around town a lot. My current favorite store bought pita for awhile now is from Yafa Grille downtown on M and 19th st. They bake it fresh in store using their Palestinian Chicagoan mother's recipe. Theirs is better than my homemade but it is fun to do it homemade and I plan to do it again soon. Not too hard but a bit time consuming and I did use a pizza stone. 2
Sundae in the Park Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 Like many others, we find ourselves mostly going out for certain dishes/cuisines, because it's really difficult to swallow paying others to make food that you can prepare nearly/as well at home and tailored to personal taste. Fried foods, Neopolitan pizza, most fish dishes (my parents had a saying about fish stinking up the house that I've carried with me ever since), Thai, Szechuan, KBBQ, ramen, pho, sushi, breads, certain Indian dishes…(I was never able to get my baingan bharta to come out; on the other hand, we like my chana masala better than just about all restaurant chick pea curries except for Ravi's - anyone got a recipe for those?) are all eating out foods. But we almost never go out and get soups and stews, stir-fries, salads, Italian, simple grilled or roasted foods, or most basic curries. The time savings in eating out is definitely factored into our decisions, but we are still mostly going out for things we don't/can't make at home. Plus, I enjoy cooking and stocking our fridge with homemade foods for the week. 1
dcandohio Posted November 8, 2016 Posted November 8, 2016 I had a very, very, very long day on Saturday. My meals were Thai eggplant with ground beef, and penne with mushrooms and sausage, both extracted from plastic bags in the freezer. I could've easily popped into a neighborhood place for a burger, or a slice of pizza. But I find, lately, I am more mindful about the decision to eat out, both for cost, and excess sodium, and excess calories. If I am really craving something, I don't deny myself. Usually, though, what is in my freezer is more enticing to me than easy restaurant options within walking or short driving distance. Having said that, if restaurants ever stop serving fried chicken, I don't know how I will survive!!! 4
Sundae in the Park Posted November 10, 2016 Posted November 10, 2016 The last day or so of being hunkered down in misery at home reminds me of another value of making/eating good food at home - you don't have to put on pants/get dressed at all. Which, sometimes, is a very attractive incentive. On November 8, 2016 at 4:13 AM, dcandohio said: I had a very, very, very long day on Saturday. My meals were Thai eggplant with ground beef, and penne with mushrooms and sausage, both extracted from plastic bags in the freezer. I could've easily popped into a neighborhood place for a burger, or a slice of pizza. But I find, lately, I am more mindful about the decision to eat out, both for cost, and excess sodium, and excess calories. If I am really craving something, I don't deny myself. Usually, though, what is in my freezer is more enticing to me than easy restaurant options within walking or short driving distance. And yes, frozen leftovers from batch cooking are a godsend when you want something homey and good and are too sad to leave the house or cook. 3
lion Posted November 13, 2016 Posted November 13, 2016 Fish is very hard for me to eat outside the house since we make it weekly. Our fish purchases are $15-30 per pound retail and at that price point we tend to get good quality fish. Usually restaurants tend to dry out the fish by either grilling or frying and to my taste, ends up with a texture like chicken. When I am spending $30-40 for a plate of fish it's hard not to think of the cost of the fish and how 'good' it tastes. Places like French restaurants which have complex sauces or soups that require a significant time investment from the perspective of a home chef make the meal seem worth it. Once you can look behind the curtain and see what magic is going on, I really appreciate the hard work that goes into a dish and feel that adds value to the plate. 2
Simul Parikh Posted November 15, 2016 Posted November 15, 2016 On 11/8/2016 at 2:21 AM, Sundae in the Park said: Like many others, we find ourselves mostly going out for certain dishes/cuisines, because it's really difficult to swallow paying others to make food that you can prepare nearly/as well at home and tailored to personal taste. Fried foods, Neopolitan pizza, most fish dishes (my parents had a saying about fish stinking up the house that I've carried with me ever since), Thai, Szechuan, KBBQ, ramen, pho, sushi, breads, certain Indian dishes…(I was never able to get my baingan bharta to come out; on the other hand, we like my chana masala better than just about all restaurant chick pea curries except for Ravi's - anyone got a recipe for those?) are all eating out foods. But we almost never go out and get soups and stews, stir-fries, salads, Italian, simple grilled or roasted foods, or most basic curries. The time savings in eating out is definitely factored into our decisions, but we are still mostly going out for things we don't/can't make at home. Plus, I enjoy cooking and stocking our fridge with homemade foods for the week. Ravi's is really good. I think they use way less or no tomato, and that's what separates it from most Indian places. I have a killer baingan bharta recipe. Made it this weekend for the feast and it disappeared before I could even have any. 16 people crushed pretty much everything made. Sushi definitely, Chinese, Mexican I rather would eat out. I feel like Italian I can do well at home (well I don't make pasta fresh). Thai is do-able at home, but making a good curry paste does take some times. Indian can do home, but certainly not everything. I don't understand French food at all, so have to get that out. 1
DonRocks Posted November 15, 2016 Posted November 15, 2016 8 minutes ago, Simul Parikh said: Ravi's is really good. I think they use way less or no tomato, and that's what separates it from most Indian places. I have a killer baingan bharta recipe. Made it this weekend for the feast and it disappeared before I could even have any. 16 people crushed pretty much everything made. Interestingly, I've found Chole and Baingan Bharta to be some of the best *frozen* foods you can buy (I think it's the long-cooked aspect that lends itself to being frozen and reheated). Ravi will (usually) give you a double Chole if you ask for it instead of salad - best to ask in Urdu.
TrelayneNYC Posted November 15, 2016 Posted November 15, 2016 Not particularly. We eat out 1-2x a week because sometimes we don't feel like cooking. We also use that opportunity to (1) mine ideas for future meals and (2) support local businesses. And while we oftentimes can and do better than some of the places we eat at, the differences aren't really a major factor in our household.
MarkS Posted December 1, 2016 Posted December 1, 2016 This is my view when I am in Annapolis. My preference is to mostly cook and look out the windows. 6
Al Dente Posted December 6, 2016 Posted December 6, 2016 I'm a damn good cook, if a bit out of practice given that I don't cook much from scratch these days and I despise my kitchen. Unlike what some folks said above, I will order something on the menu that I can do at home because there are times it can really open your eyes to varied takes on a certain dish. That said, I kick myself when I order pasta at a run of the mill red-checked tablecloth kind of Italian joint. It dawns on me that I've ordered $0.09 worth of dried pasta and a sauce that could be whipped up in 10 mins. I can roast a chicken, and folks usually love it, but it ain't a Rutabird. Once I had one at Palena (those were the days), I tried several times, with varying degrees of success, to mimic the recipe. I really had fun doing it, and I think some other DR folks enjoyed it too. 2
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