Proof, Capital One Arena, Chef George Rodrigues Replaces Austin Fausett, Who Replaced Ben Schramm, Who Replaced Haidar Kharoum, Etc. - Closed Feb 2, 2019

[Tweaked]

Three words - Crispy Pig's Head. Imagine a tater tot. Instead of potato the tot is stuffed with shredded pork laced with Chinese Five Spice powder. Just one of the five excellent dishes we had Saturday night at Proof.

We started with two salads, the first a study of roasted and shaved raw winter vegetable. Followed with an escorole salad that was a play on a cesar salad, the marinated white anchovies were excellent.

Next up was tuna tartar, which appears to never leave the menu...and for good reason. Tuna tartar may be played out but I will always be happy to eat Proof's rendition.

We finished with sauteed gnocchi, paired with butternut squash, kale and tiny brussel sprouts. A perfect winter dish.

[bettyjoan]

We had a spectacular meal at Proof last Saturday night - maybe the best meal I've had there since it opened (and I've had some really good ones, believe you me). Sebastian's wine recommendations were spot on, and he was so fun to talk to - our server was excellent as well, though I am blanking on her name. We started with the charcuterie board and the sweetbreads with osso bucco ravioli and poached veal tongue. The star of the latter was absolutely the tongue - tender and flavorful, it completely stole the show from the also-terrific sweetbreads. We enjoyed four different entrees: pan roasted branzino (perfectly cooked, with a great crispy finish), cassoulet (great comfort food), roasted lamb loin (most peoples' favorite of the dishes - the lentil/chickpea salad that came with it was yummy), and the glazed duck breast (delicious, especially with the yams). Bravo to everyone at Proof, and thanks for a lovely evening!

[NovaLawyer]

I have only eaten here at lunchtime, but let me especially endorse the lunch special at the bar - a choice of very good five entrees (chicken, pasta, shrimp burger come to mind) and a glass of servicable red or white wine for a mere $12. Whenever I am in this part of town, casting about for a quick lunch bite, I head right in.

[Sundae in the Park]

As a most-shellfish-avoider, I really enjoy the fact that I can eat almost everything here. We had the lovely lamb loin and duck (preps haven't changed from above), and I especially enjoyed the springy gnocchi (ramps, asparagus, mushrooms, oh my!).

[DPop]

Soft Shell Crab app is stupendous. I have never enjoyed or gotten the hype with these things until last Friday. Bravo, Haidar.

[ktmoomau]

We had birthday dinner for my Mom at Proof. The service was really just top notch and stellar all around. The food was good. I started with the egg drop soup with duck and tarragon sausage, which I really liked, but I wish it had more of the sausage in it. Very nice broth though and not too heavy. Hubby had the spicy little meatballs with ricotta ravioli, which was good, but I don't think the pasta here is there strong point (although didn't know this at the start of the meal). Mom had a salad and her bf had the flatbread. Everything was good, my soup was probably the closest thing to being really good.

For entrees Mom and the bf had the branzino- which they liked, they both eat fairly healthy so Proof had a good range of dishes for them. I had the halibut, which had nice light flavors. Hubby had the cavatelli with duck ragu which was ok.

Desserts were a real winner, my profiteroles were amazingly good, and Mom had sticky toffee pudding which was really good too. The whole meal was good. We had two bottles of wine and some drinks, service was stellar.

Hubby wasn't thrilled with Proof. I don't know if maybe we eat out so much we have really high expectations, I don't think he ordered great (he commented that Dino did both things better for less money). But thinking back it was a good meal, but had the service not been just as amazing as it was, I think I would be less inclined to go back. I think all the ingredients were really good, there were just a lot of dishes that weren't particularly remarkable. I don't know. I don't think anyone should not go to Proof based on this review. It was good. I just don't know if I would choose it over other places. For cheese, charcuterie and wine, heck yes, for a full meal I just don't know. I don't know exactly what it was, I can't put my finger on it, because nothing was bad, the food was just good. And I don't really want to think that, but I do.

[Rovers2000]

I was stuck with jury duty yesterday so I swung by proof for lunch. Their 12 dollar lunch special: pick 1 of a selection of 5 entrees off their main menu and pair it with a glass of red or white that they choose for you (only at the bar or lounge I believe) is an absolute steal. I had the gnocchi with suger snap peas, corn, and tomato and it was as good as it was when I first had it just over a year ago. I probably should've tried something new...but I just couldn't bring myself to not order what I think is one of the best preparations of gnocchi I've ever had (on that note: the lady next to me at the bar, who had already finished her lunch, asked for a portion of the gnocchi to go after seeing mine).

Its probably best for my waistline that I don't work near here as I would take advantage of this deal regularly.

[SeanMike]

I went there last night.

I'll keep it short and sweet: it was fantastic. Had a beautifully made rye manhattan for happy hour while waiting for my date to show up, then we split a bottle of sauvignon blanc the sommelier suggested. We got the plate of pates and terrines, with all of them being great.

(Side note to goodeats - she loved the idea of making a charcuterie sandwich. AND YOU SAID I SHOULDN'T DO THAT ON DATES! :D )

I got the cassoulet with duck confit, veal sausage, and a huge hunk of pork belly. She had the duck breast.

All the food was great, the wine recommendations (we each had a glass of a different wine to end dinner with) spot on, the atmosphere perfect, the service great...I am so happy that I thought to go there!

[ktmoomau]

(Side note to goodeats - she loved the idea of making a charcuterie sandwich. AND YOU SAID I SHOULDN'T DO THAT ON DATES! :D )

It's a sign she better get a second date... if nothing else but letting you get an I told you so in on goodeats.

[Tweaked]

Dessert alert: Warm Pink Lady Apple Pie with cider caramel. Fantastic. Unfortunately, after an afternoon of sampling gelato the accompanying bourbon ice cream did not equal the pie/caramel combo. Not much flavor and very ice crystally.

Also good: Tagliatelle with hen of the woods mushrooms, squash, arugula, toasted hazelnuts and sage brown-butter. Just about everything one could possibly want in comfort food.

Another fine meal from Proof after an afternoon of museum wandering.

[goodeats]

It's a sign she better get a second date... if nothing else but letting you get an I told you so in on goodeats.

It was a total "I told you so," from SeanMike--I teased him about this last we dined here. Not sure SeanMike's date was his standards, but I think he can land better fishes than the lady in question he posted about...

[goldenticket]

I'm a bit slow in posting this, but I have to give Proof much credit for an exceptionally enjoyable New Year's Eve. We don't usually join the crowds for NYE, but had stopped in for a bite at the bar the day before. After checking out the special menu and learning a few seats were still available for a late dinner, we decided to make a reservation.

I've never been disappointed at Proof and this meal was no exception. I'll have to add to this when I'm home with the menu, but I do recall the squash soup with maitake mushrooms and the lamb were excellent. The food (and wine) was topped only by the service. Every single member of the staff we encountered was friendly, efficient, and committed to making sure it was a great experience. This shouldn't be a surprise, but it is the exception more than the rule in a lot of places. It was really nice to experience this on one of those so-called "amateur nights" - on the contrary, Adam Bernbach said it was like their Super Bowl We never felt hurried; Joe Quinn took his time describing the wine pairings - obviously seeing that we were interested in what he had to say. It's really nice to see a team that's still at the top of their game, regardless of the occasion.

[mr food]

Looking forward to my first ( ) visit tonight.

[SeanMike]

It was a total "I told you so," from SeanMike--I teased him about this last we dined here. Not sure SeanMike's date was his standards, but I think he can land better fishes than the lady in question he posted about...

Actually, I got at least one more date after that, then she dumped me by email. And then it got worse...

...but now I have a wonderful new lady.

[bettyjoan]

Sat at the bar at Proof for dinner last night, and I am still thinking about the soup I had. AMAZING. It is a haddock chowder, and the soup itself is creamy and delicious and perfectly fishy and salty and spiked with just the right amount of chives. Then there is a crispy haddock cake in the middle of the bowl (yum), and then THAT is topped with a lovely little poached egg (mega yum). I felt ridiculous thinking that a soup that rich NEEDED an egg, but it really completed the dish, and I don't think it would have made me nearly as happy without it. And boy, was I happy. I may have to return for more, arterty clogging be damned.

[wolverine]

Does anyone know why they do not carry the sablefish as frequently? I've been there in winter/summer, and they said it was out of season and should be available in the opposite season.

[cheezepowder]

I don't know, but I've been missing the miso sablefish too!

[chefgunshow]

Not sure if this pertains, but I know it is impossible to fish for Alaskan sablefish in the winter.

[deangold]

I rarely see it offered, the catch limits were lowered.

[Rhone1998]

I, too, pine for their sablefish. One of my favorite dishes on any menu in the city. I once asked the fish buyer at Blacksalt about sablefish and he said it was just very difficult to find a good quality supply.

[DonRocks]

Still doesn't make sense that she married you, Professor Kuller.

Cum Laude?

[darkstar965]

I, too, pine for their sablefish. One of my favorite dishes on any menu in the city. I once asked the fish buyer at Blacksalt about sablefish and he said it was just very difficult to find a good quality supply.

^what he said. a couple of years ago, I posted about what I thought to be a great sablefish I'd had at another admired DC spot and msgr kuller 'invited' me to try his. so I did. wow. had it once or twice following that first time but not in the past year. and now it's no more? according to monterey bay's seafood watch, it's supposed to be a "best" or "good" choice. they're more reliable than msc, right? say it ain't so.

[goodeats]

Still doesn't make sense that she married you, Professor Kuller.

Cum Laude?

I wish they had a better copywriter on the UMiami Law site. Quick DOL quiz, readers!! On the hand, congrats to Proof for making Zagat's "Sexist Bathroom" list!

[genericeric]

I was a bit hesitant to book a table at Proof last Saturday, knowing the team was in the midst of opening a new restaurant but Proof fit the bill for what we needed, so off we went.  Happy to report that the service was as good as ever - attentive without being obtrusive.  I did get the sense that things were a bit off from the kitchen.

S.O. started with the Goat Cheese with Honey - I'm not usually a fan of this type of dish because they typically come out overly sweet.  This rendition, however, was offset by Rosemary and was not flooded with honey, making it a really good starter.  I ordered the Sauteed Veal Sweetbreads served over corn, mushrooms, bacon, heirloom tomatoes and yukon golds.  The bacon/vegetables underneath the sweetbreads were delicious, but the sweetbreads themselves were overcooked - not as much crispy on the outside with a creamy center, but dry and somewhat chewy.  I also felt that the sweetbreads didn't incorporate into the dish, it was one on top of the other.

My entree of Cavatelli with Heirloom Tomatoes was a delicious summer pasta dish (I may be getting cheap in my older age but $24 for a smallish plate of vegetarian pasta seemed a bit extreme but hey, it was really good).  The S.O.'s chicken had a nice amount of stuffing but was doomed by also being overcooked.

Overall I'd probably wait until things calm down a bit with the new restaurant before returning - $160 (w tax/tip) for two without dessert isn't inexpensive considering 2 out of 4 dishes were disappointing.

[KeithA]

Last night, my wife and I grabbed a quick dinner at the bar. You know something good must be happening at Proof when it is a Tuesday night around 9pm and there is still a 20 minute wait for a regular table, luckily the bar was available immediately.

S.O. started with the Goat Cheese with Honey - I'm not usually a fan of this type of dish because they typically come out overly sweet.  This rendition, however, was offset by Rosemary and was not flooded with honey, making it a really good starter. 

My wife also had this goat cheese dish which we thought was excellent. It comes with a little salad and some very fresh warm, flatbread/pita to spread the goat cheese on. I thought the honey added the perfect sweet note to complement the cheese's tanginess.  For a starter, I had the mushroom bisque which comes with one large aranchini - which was very filling and nice.

I then had the duck confit with corn/scallion hush puppies.  The duck was a good rendition, but the hush puppies were really great. I would love a basket of them. I had to fight off my wife's fork after I gave her a taste ;-)  My wife had the gnocchi with corn and cherry tomatos. The gnocchi were really good, but I thought there was too much of the thin, but tasty sauce on the plate.

Overall a very delightful last minute dinner choice.

[DonRocks]

When a friend gives you $126 hockey tickets, 10 rows behind the goal, you take them, and then you worry a whole lot less about the cost of parking or dining.

Some valet-parking strategy at Proof: it's $12 if you dine at the restaurant; it's $20 for everything else. I told my valet I was going to the hockey game, and then coming back to dine at Proof, and got charged the full $20. If I were to do this over, I wouldn't have mentioned the hockey game at all.

The first period was everything you could ask for in a hockey game: four goals scored in less than five minutes, three by the caps (Fehr, Johansson, and Laich). Relatively penalty-free playing, but for one rock-em, sock-em brawl that featured Strachen and Neil, pounding the crap out of each other. It was awesome.

Compare and contrast with my 24-ounce can of Miller Lite which, at $11 - yes, $11- was not awesome. Just in case that didn't sink in, I paid $11 for a can of Miller Lite.

My young dining companion, for whom I set such a fine example, and I ambled back to Proof, and ran into the omnipresent Michael James at the host stand - we beat the crowds and could have gotten a table, but took a high-top at the bar instead. We each ordered two courses: me, an app+entree; him, an app+app.

If Matt's Sautéed Potato Gnocchi with Autumn Squash & Sage Brown Butter ($15) was a legitimate appetizer portion, then you simply don't need to get the bigger one at $27. This was right in the middle of app-entree, size-wise, and came with peeled Brussels sprouts, wild Hen of the Woods mushrooms, baby spinach (well-sautéed and coated), and Parmesan. We both agreed that, although it was fabulous gnocchi, it was a touch under salted, so I embarrassed Matt - he's at that age where I embarrass him just by breathing  - by asking for some coarse salt which was all it needed. This was perhaps a touch more oily than gnocchi I've had here in the past, but given this dish's history of greatness, the bar of comparison is set quite high.

My ample bowl of Gumbo of Shrimp, Oysters, Blue Crab, and Andouille Sausage ($14) was large enough to convince me that the gnocchi was indeed an appetizer portion - these are *large* appetizers, and really priced very gently considering what they are, and where they're being served. A deep gumbo, with onions, peppers, celery, sassafras, rice, parsley, and scallions - it's served piping hot - roof-of-the-mouth-goodbye-time hot - and has that deep, long-cooked flavor that gumbo so rarely has in these parts. The three pieces of shrimp were fanned and taut.

The generous portion sizes took a hiatus with the arrival of the Pan Roasted Hudson Valley Foie Gras ($19) with sweet cherry short cake, pistachio, cocoa nibs, and bing cherry jus. A delicious foie, served atop a silver-dollar sized blini-style pancake, it was accompanied by three bing cherries, and the summation of the cherry bulk was about equal to the size of the foie gras. It was teeny-tiny, and just too precious to drop $19 on - a very good dish that just fell short on the value end of the spectrum.

But this was compensated by my Sautéed Lamb Chops with Ragout of Farro & Lamb Shoulder ($31) - three beautiful chops, presented like the Triplets of Belleville atop pistachios, dried apricots, whipped yogurt (hiding underneath everything), pomegranate, almonds, and sumac. It sounds busy, but this very North African dish utilizes all these components to offset the intensely lamb-y lamb - it's so refreshing to have lamb that doesn't taste like beef.

This was a very good showing for Proof which remains the strongest Italic restaurant at Verizon Center (I still haven't made it to Del Campo, so that's pending) in the Dining Guide.

[hmmboy]

Thanks Rocks but I have to take exception with one thing. It's the great Haidar Karoum. If there is another Chef in the city running three disparate kitchens - and by running I mean on the line at all of them throughout the week - with the quality and execution level of Proof, Estadio and Doi Moi, I am not aware of it. My success is and always has been a result of Chef Karoum's work, and that of the amazing senior FOH and BOH staffs we have been fortunate enough to assemble and retain since I embarked on this crazy adventure.

[MarkS]

Went to Proof last night before the Caps game.

My wife's comment at the end summed it up. "why havent we been here before", great choice dear.

We started off with a great Gigondas and a couple of cheeses.  Great choices and very well presented and most importantly well handled and at proper temperature.

We had two firsts. The gnocchi with wild mushrooms and brussel sprouts.  It was sublime, real rich and a great foil to the Gigonda.  Then a Endive salad which was very good but paled in comparision to gnocchi.

Then we shared a fish entree.  I believe it was sablefish.  Phenominal as we fougt over every bite.

Great meal, we were in the back where it was quiet.  Great Atmoshphere.

I'll be back soon.

[Pool Boy]

Ended up here for dinner last night (anniversary). With the best evening of the year on deck, he ate al fresco and enjoyed the people watching, and some really good food. We lucked out and got on street parking just up the street less than two blocks away. Love it when that happens.

Already knowing the charcuterie is great, we decided to experiment more with the first course section. We'll circle back to charcuterie on the next trip.  We started off with some drinks, the Greenbriar (delicious and slightly sour) and the King Cole (nice, but a bit overwhelmed by the Fernet Branca). We opted to open a 2004 Match Butterdragon Cabernet from our cellar (their corkage fee is a tad crazy high -- $40!! -- the last time we were here I am pretty sure it was $25), instead of ordering from their wine list. Do not get me wrong, their wine list is GREAT, but a lot of what they have on offer is quite expensive and I think some areas are quite underrepresented (like Spain and Italy, even though they do have some selection, I think they should have more is all).

Escarole Salad with Roasted Peppers, Shaved Parmesan & Hard Boiled Egg

garlic anchovy dressing, baguette crisps, marinated spanish anchovies

Sautéed Potato Gnocchi with Ramps & Wild Mushrooms

asparagus, sugar snap peas, basil, pea shoots, parmesan, farm butter

Sautéed Veal Sweetbreads with Morel Mushrooms, Ramps & Spring Peas

creamy white polenta, bacon lardons, caramelized honey gastrique

Crispy pig's head with some kind of aioli, a bit of spring greens and underlaid with roasted beet carpaccio

Honey & Spice Roasted Long Island Duck Breast

gorgonzola risotto, toasted pistachios, port poached apple

Sautéed Lamb Chops with Ragout of Farro & Lamb Shoulder

pistachios, dried apricots, whipped yogurt, almonds, sumac

The escarole salad was delightful, the star of that dish being the egg, clearly. The gnocchi were kind of a mushy mess in their execution, but the flavors of the whole dish saved the day.  The crispy pig head - so good. I could eat a lot of this. A lot.  The sweetbreads were pretty great as well. So good to have a good rendition of sweetbreads after the mess I had at Iron Bridge Wine Co. earlier in the week.  The Dusk was quite good, but the lamb kind of blew it away. The duck was more on the money of medium rare, while the lamb chops were closer to medium - but that did not take away from the dish at all. Really good.

Finished off with some cheese (the mimolette seemed to be.....not mimolette - hmmm). Dessert we split the Sticky Toffee Pudding cake, which was fine, but not amazing.

We'll be back for sure, next time probably just grazing the charcuterie, cheese and maybe something else to share.

[cheezepowder]

Does anyone know why they do not carry the sablefish as frequently?  I've been there in winter/summer, and they said it was out of season and should be available in the opposite season.

I don't know, but I've been missing the miso sablefish too!

I still look for the sablefish whenever I'm at Proof.  But I haven't found it.  And I was very sad to read this today in an article by Nevin Martell in Zagat:

 Proof's opening menu in 2007 featured a miso-glazed sablefish. It quickly became the restaurant's most popular fish dish and vied for the title of most popular entrée overall. However, executive chef Haidar Karoum only offered it in season when the fish was available fresh, never when frozen filets were the only option.

Several years go, he decided to pull the sablefish off the menu permanently "” even though it was owner Mark Kuller's favorite dish. Diners were unamused, vociferously voicing their displeasure on the comment cards handed out with the check at the end of meals. "There were a considerable number of them expressing that everything was great, but bring back the sablefish," remembers Karoum, who refused to revive the dish, though he does sporadically offer sablefish in various preparations at sister restaurants Doi Moi and Estadio.

[emphasis mine, links theirs]

[jmd]

Went in for a glass of wine before Inherent Vice on E St, ended up skipping the movie when I spotted this bottle on the wine list for $75: 1995 Albert Mann Grand Cru Pinot Gris. A rich, intense wine in prime condition (virtually no oxidation). Dry, at 13.5% abv with a touch of botrytis. Just a bit of funk with its gorgeous fruit. Paired with duck liver mousse and sweetbreads. This comes from the owner's personal collection, and given the absurdly affordable price (for the quality/rarity) they seem to be pricing this off its cost at release. A very memorable bottle, and one that will have me going back to see what else turns up on this list. Any other wine lists in the city offering these types of finds at reasonable prices?

[cheezepowder]

gamay

Edited to add : I should mention the sablefish has been back on the menu. Noticed it last fall and still on the menu.

[DonRocks]

gamay

Great wines, but priced at 2-2.5 times retail.

[darkstar965]

I still look for the sablefish whenever I'm at Proof. But I haven't found it. And I was very sad to read this today in an article by Nevin Martell in Zagat:

Hadn't noticed this before and great to hear it is back on the menu for awhile but I'm just a little dumbstruck by this. It was MK's favorite. It was their customers' (me included) favorite. But Karoum "refused" to serve it? WTH? I only met Mark Kuller because of this dish. He was so proud of it. Karoum should rename it "MK Miso Sablefish," serve it only when in season.

[DonRocks]

It was MK's favorite. It was their customers' (me included) favorite. But Karoum "refused" to serve it? WTH?

Well, you know it's endangered, so Haidar is just acting on principle. Nevin is a good writer who has never broken through - I wish he'd come back here where he's *appreciated*, hint, hint, hint.

And you too ... Haidar! 

And Sebastian! 

Don't you like the way I worded those sentences so the faces form a perfectly straight line?

[dinwiddie]

Went in for a glass of wine before Inherent Vice on E St, ended up skipping the movie when I spotted this bottle on the wine list for $75: 1995 Albert Mann Grand Cru Pinot Gris. A rich, intense wine in prime condition (virtually no oxidation). Dry, at 13.5% abv with a touch of botrytis. Just a bit of funk with its gorgeous fruit. Paired with duck liver mousse and sweetbreads. This comes from the owner's personal collection, and given the absurdly affordable price (for the quality/rarity) they seem to be pricing this off its cost at release. A very memorable bottle, and one that will have me going back to see what else turns up on this list. Any other wine lists in the city offering these types of finds at reasonable prices?

Unfortunately it has been my experience that the wine list at Proof can be somewhat overpriced, especially when they have to source something on the secondary market.  For example, I was there for lunch one day and saw a 2006 Kosta-Browne Sonoma Coast PN for $300.  Considering that I bought it from the winery for $48, and can find it on the secondary market for $90-100 right now, I thought that was a bit high.

I am going there on Saturday to celebrate a birthday and called about the corkage fee.  $40 per bottle, again, high, but since they mark things up so much, and I'm bringing things that they can't get, I'd rather spend the $40 than pay an extra $250 to buy something comparable from their list.

Of course, I have to admit, there are some very good deals on the list too once in a while.

[Pool Boy]

Unfortunately it has been my experience that the wine list at Proof can be somewhat overpriced, especially when they have to source something on the secondary market.  For example, I was there for lunch one day and saw a 2006 Kosta-Browne Sonoma Coast PN for $300.  Considering that I bought it from the winery for $48, and can find it on the secondary market for $90-100 right now, I thought that was a bit high.

I am going there on Saturday to celebrate a birthday and called about the corkage fee.  $40 per bottle, again, high, but since they mark things up so much, and I'm bringing things that they can't get, I'd rather spend the $40 than pay an extra $250 to buy something comparable from their list.

Of course, I have to admit, there are some very good deals on the list too once in a while.

Makes me glad I sold off my stash 6 years ago at $100 per. It was not a favorite and an easy sell. I can see why people love it though. $40 corkage is almost userous.

[Keithstg]

Makes me glad I sold off my stash 6 years ago at $100 per. It was not a favorite and an easy sell. I can see why people love it though. $40 corkage is almost userous.

Please don't take this the wrong way Pool Boy, but not only is $40 corkage not usurious, it's a privilege. I'm not taking issue with your post, but with the attitude toward corkage in general (and certainly not your attitude in particular ). I understand it to some degree - I enjoy wine and have about 1k bottles sleeping in my home cellar. What I don't enjoy is the sense of entitlement that comes with many who enjoy our hobby that corkage is a right and that right should come cheaply. It's even worse on the wine board I follow, where some guy just took Corduroy to task for following their house policy on corkage and not allowing another bottle to be consumed. Apparently sticking to a corkage policy isn't "gracious" or something.

The most frequent comments I see regarding wine and corkage relate to restaurant markups vs. retail - what astonishes me is that nobody seems to acknowledge that a restaurant isn't a retail setting in the sense that Schneider's is. I mean, what's next - am I going to walk into some steakhouse with either my local pastured beef from Martin's or with Bryan Flannery's excellent prime beef and demand it be cooked because it's superior to what I can purchase on-site?

Anyway, rant over. Maybe I'll understand corkage one day...

ETA: funny that this was my 666th post...

[DonRocks]

Please don't take this the wrong way Pool Boy, but not only is $40 corkage not usurious, it's a privilege. I'm not taking issue with your post, but with the attitude toward corkage in general (and certainly not your attitude in particular ). I understand it to some degree - I enjoy wine and have about 1k bottles sleeping in my home cellar. What I don't enjoy is the sense of entitlement that comes with many who enjoy our hobby that corkage is a right and that right should come cheaply. It's even worse on the wine board I follow, where some guy just took Corduroy to task for following their house policy on corkage and not allowing another bottle to be consumed. Apparently sticking to a corkage policy isn't "gracious" or something.

The most frequent comments I see regarding wine and corkage relate to restaurant markups vs. retail - what astonishes me is that nobody seems to acknowledge that a restaurant isn't a retail setting in the sense that Schneider's is. I mean, what's next - am I going to walk into some steakhouse with either my local pastured beef from Martin's or with Bryan Flannery's excellent prime beef and demand it be cooked because it's superior to what I can purchase on-site?

Anyway, rant over. Maybe I'll understand corkage one day...

ETA: funny that this was my 666th post...

You see, you're going to be helpless in responding to this because I know you don't want to find out what happens when you make your 667th post (you might want to take a screen shot before you do, because it's going to be a letdown).

I don't buy into the "corkage is a privilege" argument. Well, I do, but pretty much *anything* that isn't guaranteed by law is a privilege, so I think it's largely irrelevant. I have the opposite attitude: "If you're going to charge me 2.5 times as much as the liquor store down the street for the exact same thing, i.e., $100 for a $40 wine, you'd *better* have a corkage policy if you want my business."

So yes, a restaurant's corkage policies are a privilege to me, but my business is a privilege to them, and I'm more than happy to take it elsewhere (I haven't bought a bottle of wine at Proof in years). Sorry for the blunt talk, but I resent restaurants marking up their wines much higher than retail. Yes, there is stemware, ice buckets, service, etc., and that absolutely justifies a small markup. However, unlike what I could do with their miso sablefish, with a bottle of wine, I could simply walk down to my basement and get the exact same thing, and instead of paying $100 for it, I paid $25. Now, what am I expected to do?

Quite honestly, I don't see how restaurants sell *any* wine that's priced over $30-40, because anyone who knows enough to appreciate it, should know enough not to pay that much for it. Proof's Gamay list is a good example of the upper-end of what I can tolerate: It's a *great* list of Beaujolais - fantastic vineyards, great importers - just the absolute best-of-the-best, and yes, there is significant value-added because they went to the trouble of expertly sifting through and selecting those world-class beauties so that I can pretty much just throw a dart and be guaranteed something special. Plus, if the wine is corked (or whatever), the financial risk is theirs; not mine - that, too, is significant, albeit mitigated if they can return it to the distributor. All that justifies, in my mind, a substantial markup from retail - from $20 to $45, for example. They absolutely deserve $25 for the work they did in selecting that bottle. But (you knew there was a but coming), Beaujolais is one of the last regions in the world that makes world-class red wine at prices so low - it's the best-of-the-best region that produces Gamay, just as Champagne is the best-of-the-best region that produces sparkling wine, and is without peer. I can tolerate a 2-2.5 times markup for inexpensive wines such as these, but I couldn't tolerate paying $150 for a $60 wine no matter what hoops they went through in procuring it.

Lest anyone think I'm cheap, I gave Mark a bottle of 1966 Lafite as a thank you for inviting me to his soft opening dinner (if there are any doubts remaining, start Googling). I considered Mark a dear personal friend, and mourn his loss in various ways every single day. I know how much he loved Max, and he always beamed with paternal pride when he talked about how much Max had learned about wine over the years (and from what I hear, he knows quite a bit). The fact that someone as talented as Adam Bernbach is *not* the wine director speaks volumes about Proof's beverage program. Michael James is one of only a handful of truly great GM's in this city, on a par with the very best when it comes to working the dining room. I love Haidar's cooking, and Proof has always been on the verge of being in Bold in the Dining Guide, and has been ranked as the #1 restaurant in the Verizon Center neighborhood since the day it opened (Asia Nora, in fact, *was* in Bold for a brief time during Haidar's stint there). Proof is one of only several outstanding restaurants in the Washington, DC area. But I'd be anti-consumer if I didn't point out how expensive Proof's wine program has become - yes, it still has fantastic wines, and is one of the tip-top wine programs in the city (Mark would have argued, not without some justification, that it was *the* best wine program in the city). But damn you sure have to pay dearly for that quality, and wines are a unique restaurant commodity in that they're not a unique commodity at all. Well, caviar service is the same, I guess - if someone doesn't mind paying $200 for 30 grams of beluga caviar, when they can get the exact same thing at Dean & DeLuca for $100, then they probably don't mind paying double-retail for wines either (when you have that much money, things take on a different perspective; I don't have that much money). The irony here is that I have a palate that genuinely, truly, wildly, passionately appreciates the nuances in caviar, and damned if I wouldn't love to be able to enjoy it on a regular basis, but, I can't, and so it gets consumed by some rich philistine, shoveling it down while gulping glasses of Le Romanée-Conti, not caring, or even noticing, that the two completely ruin each other. Do I sound jealous here? I do? Well ... I *am*!  I couldn't care less about money except when it comes to things like this, and this makes me wish I was a billionaire so I could support those poor fishermen, toiling on the Caspian sea, sweating and grimacing and laboring to harvest those 500-pound beluga sturgeon. They need my help.

[Maybe instead of damning Proof by association, I should move these last two posts into a separate corkage thread?]

And before anyone lambasts me, please understand that this post intentionally devolved into parody. But God, I do love great caviar. Hackleback, my ass.

[Keithstg]

You see, you're going to be helpless in responding to this because I know you don't want to find out what happens when you make your 667th post (you might want to take a screen shot before you do, because it's going to be a letdown).

I don't buy into the "corkage is a privilege" argument. Well, I do, but pretty much *anything* that isn't guaranteed by law is a privilege, so I think it's largely irrelevant. I have the opposite attitude: "If you're going to charge me 2.5 times as much as the liquor store down the street for the exact same thing, i.e., $100 for a $40 wine, you'd *better* have a corkage policy if you want my business."

So yes, a restaurant's corkage policies are a privilege to me, but my business is a privilege to them, and I'm more than happy to take it elsewhere (I haven't bought a bottle of wine at Proof in years). Sorry for the blunt talk, but I resent restaurants marking up their wines much higher than retail. Yes, there is stemware, ice buckets, service, etc., and that absolutely justifies a small markup. However, unlike what I could do with their miso sablefish, with a bottle of wine, I could simply walk down to my basement and get the exact same thing, and instead of paying $100 for it, I paid $25. Now, what am I expected to do?

Quite honestly, I don't see how restaurants sell *any* wine that's priced over $30-40, because anyone who knows enough to appreciate it, should know enough not to pay that much for it. Proof's Gamay list is a good example of the upper-end of what I can tolerate: It's a *great* list of Beaujolais - fantastic vineyards, great importers - just the absolute best-of-the-best, and yes, there is significant value-added because they went to the trouble of expertly sifting through and selecting those world-class beauties so that I can pretty much just throw a dart and be guaranteed something special. Plus, if the wine is corked (or whatever), the financial risk is theirs; not mine - that, too, is significant, albeit mitigated if they can return it to the distributor. All that justifies, in my mind, a substantial markup from retail - from $20 to $45, for example. They absolutely deserve $25 for the work they did in selecting that bottle. But (you knew there was a but coming), Beaujolais is one of the last regions in the world that makes world-class red wine at prices so low - it's the best-of-the-best region that produces Gamay, just as Champagne is the best-of-the-best region that produces sparkling wine, and is without peer. I can tolerate a 2-2.5 times markup for inexpensive wines such as these, but I couldn't tolerate paying $150 for a $60 wine no matter what hoops they went through in procuring it.

Lest anyone think I'm cheap, I gave Mark a bottle of 1966 Lafite as a thank you for inviting me to his soft opening dinner (if there are any doubts remaining, start Googling). I considered Mark a dear personal friend, and mourn his loss in various ways every single day. I know how much he loved Max, and he always beamed with paternal pride when he talked about how much Max had learned about wine over the years (and from what I hear, he knows quite a bit). The fact that someone as talented as Adam Bernbach is *not* the wine director speaks volumes about Proof's beverage program. Michael James is one of only a handful of truly great GM's in this city, on a par with the very best when it comes to working the dining room. I love Haidar's cooking, and Proof has always been on the verge of being in Bold in the Dining Guide, and has been ranked as the #1 restaurant in the Verizon Center neighborhood since the day it opened (Asia Nora, in fact, *was* in Bold for a brief time during Haidar's stint there). Proof is one of only several outstanding restaurants in the Washington, DC area. But I'd be anti-consumer if I didn't point out how expensive Proof's wine program has become - yes, it still has fantastic wines, and is one of the tip-top wine programs in the city (Mark would have argued, not without some justification, that it was *the* best wine program in the city). But damn you sure have to pay dearly for that quality, and wines are a unique restaurant commodity in that they're not a unique commodity at all. Well, caviar service is the same, I guess - if someone doesn't mind paying $200 for 30 grams of beluga caviar, when they can get the exact same thing at Dean & DeLuca for $100, then they probably don't mind paying double-retail for wines either (when you have that much money, things take on a different perspective; I don't have that much money). The irony here is that I have a palate that genuinely, truly, wildly, passionately appreciates the nuances in caviar, and damned if I wouldn't love to be able to enjoy it on a regular basis, but, I can't, and so it gets consumed by some rich philistine, shoveling it down while gulping glasses of Le Romanée-Conti, not caring, or even noticing, that the two completely ruin each other. Do I sound jealous here? I do? Well ... I *am*!  I couldn't care less about money except when it comes to things like this, and this makes me wish I was a billionaire so I could support those poor fishermen, toiling on the Caspian sea, sweating and grimacing and laboring to harvest those 500-pound beluga sturgeon. They need my help.

[Maybe instead of damning Proof by association, I should move these last two posts into a separate corkage thread?]

And before anyone lambasts me, please understand that this post intentionally devolved into parody. But God, I do love great caviar. Hackleback, my ass.

Fair enough, as this isn't really about proof, Per Se (which has either $95 or $150 corkage now). I completely agree that corkage is a privilege, as is your patronizing a business. What I react to is when folks (and this is absolutely more about wineberserkers than it is here) want corkage on their terms, with their parameters, and think that anything less is an insult.

You mention risk briefly, but I don't think you are valuing it highly enough. As you note, If you open a corked or maderized bottle at a restaurant, they assume risk. If you take that same bottle from your home cellar, who assumes that risk? Sure, you can try and bring the bottle back through the supply chain and may well be able to do so with a recent release - but with a bottle bought at auction or on release and then aged for 15 years? Good luck, and good luck to the restaurant as well. Businesses have been charging premiums for absorbing risk for centuries - why should wine be any different (in addition to glassware, breakage, storage, and other costs that the restaurant absorbs)?

I get that everyone has some sort of internal value system re: markups, but to complain about wine markups AND corkage fees? Just eat at home with that middling bottle of Cali pinot...

[darkstar965]

...

I don't buy into the "corkage is a privilege" argument. Well, I do, but pretty much *anything* that isn't guaranteed by law is a privilege, so I think it's largely irrelevant. I have the opposite attitude: "If you're going to charge me 2.5 times as much as the liquor store down the street for the exact same thing, i.e., $100 for a $40 wine, you'd *better* have a corkage policy if you want my business."

So yes, a restaurant's corkage policies are a privilege to me, but my business is a privilege to them, and I'm more than happy to take it elsewhere (I haven't bought a bottle of wine at Proof in years). Sorry for the blunt talk, but I resent restaurants marking up their wines much higher than retail. Yes, there is stemware, ice buckets, service, etc., and that absolutely justifies a small markup. However, unlike what I could do with their miso sablefish, with a bottle of wine, I could simply walk down to my basement and get the exact same thing, and instead of paying $100 for it, I paid $25. Now, what am I expected to do?

Quite honestly, I don't see how restaurants sell *any* wine that's priced over $30-40, because anyone who knows enough to appreciate it, should know enough not to pay that much for it.

...

Exactly! Precisely!! And, absolutely. If I could "like" this post of Don's a thousand times, I would.

I'm not a wine expert by any measure.  But I do know a little. It is an interest for me if not a full-blown hobby.  I took several wine-tasting classes during and after my college years. I've been fortunate to have been able to travel to most of the world's major wine-growing regions; and have enough interest that a trip to Cape Town ensures a side trip to Stellenbosch, a trip to Auckland prompted a side trip to Marlborough.  A few months in Barcelona led to a couple of trips up to Bordeaux.  And, so on.

Still, have never worked in the industry. And, while I keep maybe 25-50 bottles in my basement, I have no "wine cellar" and have been thinking about getting a small wine fridge for a few years that I still haven't gotten.    I'd never call wine a "hobby" for me. But, I think i know the difference between excellent and swill.  And, I do have enough interest to seek it out and to learn more (as this site affords).

I don't know how representative I am of any group but I almost never buy bottles of wine in restaurants despite spending way too much money on going out/food.  One reason is my +1, who likes wine but can't drink more than half a glass or so. But, the bigger reason is the stratospheric pricing.  I think I've "taken advantage" of corkage policies maybe a dozen times...ever.

I'm someone who maybe understands restaurant economics a little better than the average diner.  And, I totally appreciate how incredibly tough it is to sustain a reasonable profit over many years.  And, how critical a bar program is to ensuring a positive bottom line.  Still, markups of 2.5X, 3X, 3.5X, 4X and higher are just offensive to me.  I don't normally post about this here.  It's not really one of my issues since I just don't partake when out very often aside from one-off glasses.  As an aside, most places don't have great wine-by-the-glass programs which makes my decision to not have wine in restaurants even easier at times.  I've wondered often whether that is a big missed market opportunity.

I fully understand, deeply appreciate and very much respect the expertise and passion that fellow members like PoolBoy, Dinwiddle, and Keithstg (Don too, obviously) have around wine.  It's awesome in my view as I love deep knowledge and associated passion in almost any realm.  And, I love good, great and exceptional wine.  But, count me as one customer lost to restaurants due to the very high markups. Maybe I'm unique (and an oddball) this way; I don't know.  But, if any others do see this as I do, this is why you should embrace great coffee!  All the same complexities, nuances, flavor palates and global relevance at $3-5/cup or $12-15/lb.  

[darkstar965]

...

You mention risk briefly, but I don't think you are valuing it highly enough. As you note, If you open a corked or maderized bottle at a restaurant, they assume risk. If you take that same bottle from your home cellar, who assumes that risk? Sure, you can try and bring the bottle back through the supply chain and may well be able to do so with a recent release - but with a bottle bought at auction or on release and then aged for 15 years? Good luck, and good luck to the restaurant as well. Businesses have been charging premiums for absorbing risk for centuries - why should wine be any different (in addition to glassware, breakage, storage, and other costs that the restaurant absorbs)?

...

Keith, I'm not sure if you're in the industry but I'm very curious to learn if the above is always true, usually true or more the exception.  It seems  a huge part of understanding markups.  I'd need to better understand what most restaurants do with corked or bad wine and also how often that even happens (whether it's a material risk for an average-sized restaurant cellar). I'm a bit skeptical about this risk but also admit to being largely uninformed about it.  It'd be great to hear from Mark Slater and others on it if they're willing.

[Keithstg]

Keith, I'm not sure if you're in the industry but I'm very curious to learn if the above is always true, usually true or more the exception.  It seems  a huge part of understanding markups.  I'd need to better understand what most restaurants do with corked or bad wine and also how often that even happens (whether it's a material risk for an average-sized restaurant cellar). I'm a bit skeptical about this risk but also admit to being largely uninformed about it.  It'd be great to hear from Mark Slater and others on it if they're willing.

I'm not in the industry. And, I'm not suggesting that corkage is something that one shouldn't "take advantage of", but rather that many in the wine community expect more out of corkage policies than is reasonable - and that reflects poorly on the hobby as a whole.

Regarding "bad bottles", seems that as with many things, the risk increases with age. I was at Bern's in Tampa a few weeks ago and had a bad bottle - it was replaced without a second thought. Were I to have walked downstairs and pulled a similar bottle at my home (if I had the same bottle), it would have been a large, large, large bummer and I would be out my initial investment.

[DonRocks]

Fair enough, as this isn't really about proof, Per Se (which has either $95 or $150 corkage now). I completely agree that corkage is a privilege, as is your patronizing a business. What I react to is when folks (and this is absolutely more about wineberserkers than it is here) want corkage on their terms, with their parameters, and think that anything less is an insult.

You mention risk briefly, but I don't think you are valuing it highly enough. As you note, If you open a corked or maderized bottle at a restaurant, they assume risk. If you take that same bottle from your home cellar, who assumes that risk? Sure, you can try and bring the bottle back through the supply chain and may well be able to do so with a recent release - but with a bottle bought at auction or on release and then aged for 15 years? Good luck, and good luck to the restaurant as well. Businesses have been charging premiums for absorbing risk for centuries - why should wine be any different (in addition to glassware, breakage, storage, and other costs that the restaurant absorbs)?

I get that everyone has some sort of internal value system re: markups, but to complain about wine markups AND corkage fees? Just eat at home with that middling bottle of Cali pinot...

Keith, you and I are pretty much on the same page - honestly, I don't see anything we disagree about.

Let me add two things:

I agree with your statement about risk, but would add that it really applies to older, more-expensive wines - the type that you'd find at auction. This is why places like Bern's Steak House [Edit: Jinx!] are such treasures - they offer *huge* amounts of older inventory at very fair prices. And they're prepared to eat the cost of the bottle if it's bad - I cannot emphasize enough what a big deal that is, especially because customers might think a bottle is "bad," when, in fact, it's just old. I suspect the wine professionals at Bern's have quite a few war stories in their arsenal.

With wines purchased at auction, there is essentially no recourse for the consumer - whether that consumer is an individual, or a restaurant. Caveat emptor. If it's a bad bottle, you own it.

However, with new, less-expensive wines that a restaurant buys from a distributor, there is almost no risk that the bottle will be bad, and if it is, they can send it back to the distributor - it's the same with an individual buying a bottle at a retailer: If it's bad, you can take it back. That said, in reality, there are limits to the number of times you can do this before the retailer says, "Maybe you should consider trying the wine shop down the street."

So there are two distinct categories of wines, both for individuals and restaurants: auction wines, and supply-chain wines. Auction wines have (I'm just throwing out a number here) a 100-times greater chance of being "off" for whatever reason (usually poor storage - the older wines are rarely corked because ... oh God, I could write an entire paper just on this one issue. There were fewer wines back then, and the wines you buy at auction tend to be high-end wines such as Bordeaux, and the Bordeaux chateaux had a lock on buying the best corks on the market (and this is when there were about 1/10th of the wines being made, and therefore 1/10th of the corks needed). It's straightforward logic, but there's also a lot of detail, so explaining it in a post such as this is difficult). Suffice it to say: Older wines are heat-damaged much more often than they are "corked" (using the proper meaning of "corked," i.e., actual TCA).

With newer wines bought from a distributor (or for individuals, from a retailer), there's a much lower risk of poor storage (ironically, there's a higher risk of having TCA for the exact opposite reasons I explained above; yet, there are also artificial corks, screwcaps, etc.) These wines not only tend to be much less risky, they also tend to be much less expensive. And now, for the first time ever, I'm going to tie everything together ...

Back when I was writing my "Best Wine Program" pieces for Washingtonian (2006 and 2007), I was extremely anal about listing the number of wines available below a certain price point, especially in the 2007 piece. Nobody ever asked me why. Well, the reason is because of the restaurants' markups: about 2-3 times retail. When you're buying, for example, a red wine from a retailer, it's *very* hard to find a good bottle for under $20. It's possible, and it's even possible to find some closer to $10, but it's not easy once you creep into the low teens. Using $20 as a baseline retail price, mark it up by 2.5, and voila: you have a $50 wine at a restaurant. That is why I used that figure so often - because the "entry point" to finding a good red wine at a restaurant is $40-50 (back then it was more like $30-40), and there's the reason why Proof's Gamay list is priced the way it is. In the restaurant world, this is as good as you can do - having a list of young, world-class red wines priced in the $40s. If you're in a restaurant, and you see a red wine priced at $4 a glass, or $20 a bottle, the odds are that it's going to be pretty bad. At the low-end, white wines are more forgiving to the palate, and this is why the majority of the time, I buy whites (or rosés) in restaurants - in fact, I would say that 1 out of every 4 bottles I buy in restaurants is a rosé: Not only are they gently priced, but they go with more types of food (being sort-of "half white, half red"). Of note is that rosés have risen in price rather dramatically in the past few years - you might not notice it in wine stores, but that effect is amplified with the restaurant multiplier, and if a wine increases in price from $15 to $17 at retail, it will also increase in price from $38 to $42 in a restaurant - five years ago, you could find rosés in the $20s that were perfectly pleasant and drinkable, sometimes even really good; now, they've crept into the low $40s along with Côes-du-Rhone and Beaujolais, both of which are now often found in the $50s. That hurts, and it hurts a lot - it used to be that because I had knowledge, I could slip through a crack in the wine list, but those times are coming to an end, at least for my areas of expertise. There may be people with a much greater knowledge than I have, happily sipping wines from Uruguay or Turkey, but I just don't know enough about those to buy them with any confidence.

Where in the hell am I going with this?

[darkstar965]

I'm not in the industry. And, I'm not suggesting that corkage is something that one shouldn't "take advantage of", but rather that many in the wine community expect more out of corkage policies than is reasonable - and that reflects poorly on the hobby as a whole.

Regarding "bad bottles", seems that as with many things, the risk increases with age. I was at Bern's in Tampa a few weeks ago and had a bad bottle - it was replaced without a second thought. Were I to have walked downstairs and pulled a similar bottle at my home (if I had the same bottle), it would have been a large, large, large bummer and I would be out my initial investment.

Thanks Keith. I understand the risk with age idea since applies to most things and have had that large bummer of an experience even with the smaller number of bottles (some pricier) I keep at home. But, reimbursement/return agreements with distributors and/or insurance may mitigate this significantly if it is even a material issue for a restaurant? Again on those things, count me as skeptical but admittedly ignorant.

[dinwiddie]

I am all in with the concept that corkage is a privilege and not a right, but if you are going to permit corkage don't complain when someone takes advantage of it.  As we have noted in numerous posts on the topic, there is an etiquette to corkage (call ahead, don't take anything from their list, etc.) however . . . while $40 is not usury, it is higher than the norm for DC.  (and in fact until the law was changed a couple of years ago, higher than was legal)  The norm in DC for corkage is $15-25 per bottle.

I don't necessarily refuse to patronize restaurants that don't permit corkage, but I do refuse to patronize restaurants that have high markups and don't permit corkage.  There are too many other places to go.  I chose Proof because I wanted to eat there, I asked about the corkage because I have dined there with wine groups in the past, as well as just with my wife, and paid less than $40 for corkage.  Proof is a wine bar, and they are justifiably proud of their wine list, but it can be high priced.  Yes there are some gems available, and there are wines on the list that most folks never see except on a really good list.  But if you are like me, and have some very small production, highly sought after wines, and want to drink them while dining on a special occasion at a very nice restaurant, you will pick one that has a reasonable corkage fee.  I've eaten at many very fine restaurants, including Per Se, but I won't buy from their list and won't pay $100 to be able to drink my wine.

I am still going to go there this weekend, and I think I will bring a either a 2012 Radio-Coteau Chardonnay Savoy or a 2012 Kosta-Browne Chardonnay One Sixteen Vineyard and a 2009 Black Kite Pinot Noir Angel Hawk Reserve.

   

[Josh Radigan]

Understand this point about mark-ups, a bottle on every table is less man power than glasses on the table. So why not have a wine program that allows the customer the opportunity to buy wine by the bottle, feel good about it, and in the end continue to support your business because they don't feel like they are being taken to the cleaners. Back in the day several restaurants had a great policy of wine mark-up, retail pricing plus $10. Not bad. That $10 paid for glassware, washing it, ice buckets and ice. So wine lists had great options for customers to try and many people used to tell me "hey, I think this is a typo." and point to a price on the list that seemed way too low.

Who knows, maybe that will become a reality again for some of us if we happen to open our own place.

[Keithstg]

Thanks Keith. I understand the risk with age idea since applies to most things and have had that large bummer of an experience even with the smaller number of bottles (some pricier) I keep at home. But, reimbursement/return agreements with distributors and/or insurance may mitigate this significantly if it is even a material issue for a restaurant? Again on those things, count me as skeptical but admittedly ignorant.

Insurance for wine (which I have and highly recommend) will not cover "flawed bottles". Breakage, theft, cooling unit failure - yes. Heat Damage, TCA, etc - no. Standard whether through Chubb, Fireman's fund, or one of the online options.

Reimbursements/ returns are much easier for new/ recent release wines like the 2012 Chards dinwiddie is talking about, but often not on older bottles.

[Keithstg]

I am all in with the concept that corkage is a privilege and not a right, but if you are going to permit corkage don't complain when someone takes advantage of it.  As we have noted in numerous posts on the topic, there is an etiquette to corkage (call ahead, don't take anything from their list, etc.) however . . . while $40 is not usury, it is higher than the norm for DC.  (and in fact until the law was changed a couple of years ago, higher than was legal)  The norm in DC for corkage is $15-25 per bottle.

I don't necessarily refuse to patronize restaurants that don't permit corkage, but I do refuse to patronize restaurants that have high markups and don't permit corkage.  There are too many other places to go.  I chose Proof because I wanted to eat there, I asked about the corkage because I have dined there with wine groups in the past, as well as just with my wife, and paid less than $40 for corkage.  Proof is a wine bar, and they are justifiably proud of their wine list, but it can be high priced.  Yes there are some gems available, and there are wines on the list that most folks never see except on a really good list.  But if you are like me, and have some very small production, highly sought after wines, and want to drink them while dining on a special occasion at a very nice restaurant, you will pick one that has a reasonable corkage fee.  I've eaten at many very fine restaurants, including Per Se, but I won't buy from their list and won't pay $100 to be able to drink my wine.

I am still going to go there this weekend, and I think I will bring a either a 2012 Radio-Coteau Chardonnay Savoy or a 2012 Kosta-Browne Chardonnay One Sixteen Vineyard and a 2009 Black Kite Pinot Noir Angel Hawk Reserve.

   

I don't know what prior DC law has to do with current corkage fees/ law, and don't think that anyone is complaining about taking advantage of corkage where permitted. As someone who also has wines like you describe, I'll sometimes pay corkage. I'll often buy off a list. I won't bring (and ask to open) three bottles when the policy is for one, complain when corkage isn't waived if I share a taste with the chef, etc, etc etc. I'd imagine you, Pool Boy and others do the same. Just reacting to attitudes continually expressed on another board - as I mentioned.

Keith, I'm not sure if you're in the industry but I'm very curious to learn if the above is always true, usually true or more the exception.  It seems  a huge part of understanding markups.  I'd need to better understand what most restaurants do with corked or bad wine and also how often that even happens (whether it's a material risk for an average-sized restaurant cellar). I'm a bit skeptical about this risk but also admit to being largely uninformed about it.  It'd be great to hear from Mark Slater and others on it if they're willing.

In my experience always true, but probably usually true.

[darkstar965]

Insurance for wine (which I have and highly recommend) will not cover "flawed bottles". Breakage, theft, cooling unit failure - yes. Heat Damage, TCA, etc - no. Standard whether through Chubb, Fireman's fund, or one of the online options.

Reimbursements/ returns are much easier for new/ recent release wines like the 2012 Chards dinwiddie is talking about, but often not on older bottles.

Still wondering about this.  Are your views about insurance coverage more reflective of the insurance market for consumers and private collectors than for restaurants with hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) tied up in inventory?  Again, I'm not sure but part of the reason why I thought higher end restaurants might have good protection from distributor contracts and insurance is the occasional news item when referenced like this.

To Don't point though, maybe this isn't a material expense for a better restaurant/wine bar like Proof?  And, if it isn't, then gets back to the the markups being unreasonable relative to nearly any other kind of product or service.

Also, I think this a great and useful conversation precisely because there was constructive disagreement.  Different from Don's statement here:

Keith, you and I are pretty much on the same page - honestly, I don't see anything we disagree about.

Maybe I misinterpreted what I read (wouldn't be the first time) but I thought it clear that you and Don had a civil disagreement about corkage fees and, maybe, markups to some degree?  Namely, that Keith was more tolerant of both than Don.