Etiquette, The Two-Way Street

[plunk]

Just to qualify my earlier post after reading some more discussion on kids in the Colorado kitchen string, I think an owner or manager of a restaurant does have every right to project their feelings on etiquette to other people. It is their place, their four walls, their customers, their food and their tables and chairs. They can require people to behave anyway they please while in their "home".

...but they cannot permit them to smoke (in D.C., anyway).

[Heather]

When I took my daughter (7) to RTC last week, I was so concerned with her not spilling or anything (you know being human) and what do I do as soon as I get my coffee. I was the one who spilled my coffee all over the table (At least it was only the coffee and not the chocolate mousse).

That's so true.

I'm the glass breaker and beverage spiller in our house. The last time it was a shattered wine glass all over our table at Acadiana. I was so notorious for it in college that whenever we went out I was not allowed to touch the beer pitcher.

[Barbara]

There have been a few times when the whole family has gotten together for a meal in a restaurant. I have a niece and two nephews (although one isn't EXACTLY in that position--he is the stepson of my first cousin, but is right between my brother's kids and is just a gem, so there) who know how to behave in a restaurant. They are all in their teens, now, or soon will be, so who knows? When they were younger, some discreet games or coloring books did the trick. At least none of them needed to be removed from the premises. Plus, the kids aren't allowed to sit together.

That said, at Peking Cheers last night, there were many, many families with little kids in the place when we arrived. I thought they were all adorable, especially the little girl whose parents were sitting in a booth adjacent to the round table where we were. She was a little squirmy, and probably bored, but I caught her eye on a couple of occasions and gave her a big smile. I was rewarded with a big grin from her. Later, she sorta made her way over near us and I had to point out to DininginFrederick that he had new friend. He looked at her, gave her a the big smile, and her Daddy promptly grabbed her. Too bad. She was really sweet. Interestingly, by the time we were ready to leave the families (mostly Chinese--a good sign in a Chinese restaurant) had cleared out and were replaced by non-Asians, sans children. Personally, I'd rather eat surrounded by all those beautiful babies. They didn't interfere with our meal one little bit.

[Heather]

Hm, thinking back, we were not expected to make "dinner conversation" if we were eating with other adults. We were supposed to answer questions politely if we were asked, but my parents would have looked askance at kids butting into adult conversation, or making their adult friends talk to the kids, until we got old enough to be able to have opinions about politics and the like. Otherwise we ate, drank our milk, and waited to be excused. If the group was big enough (Thanksgiving, Christmas) the "kids' table" made an appearance and we were sent off to the kitchen.

We saw many many families dining out at the bistrots in France. The kids weren't especially well behaved, but we never noticed anyone paying particular attention to the kids, except for the very youngest. Many brought books, and not a few had Game Boys. If it's OK in France...

[Heather]

Just to qualify my earlier post after reading some more discussion on kids in the Colorado kitchen string, I think an owner or manager of a restaurant does have every right to project their feelings on etiquette to other people. It is their place, their four walls, their customers, their food and their tables and chairs. They can require people to behave anyway they please while in their "home".

Can they make people put their napkins in their lap and stop talking with their mouths full, please? "We're here to serve you, but you'd better behave yourself, missy."

[Waitman]

...I think an owner or manager of a restaurant does have every right to project their feelings on etiquette to other people. It is their place, their four walls, their customers, their food and their tables and chairs. They can require people to behave anyway they please while in their "home"....

I don't know. When I have guests in my home I try not to play rules Nazi. Not that we have too many rules in my home, but the thought of "requir[ing] people to behave anyway please" while the are guests in my home makes me a little queasy. Hospitality and all that.

Also, if you order for the children, you can ask the waiter to bring it out as soon as it is done, and they usually accommodate. French fries are usually a big hit.

I find this worse, not better. If they wait for their food as I am, then we can have a conversation, work together on their activities, etc. If they eat before I get my food, then they start to get antsy just as I want to pay attention to my meal, not entertain my children.

I'm with Ilaine. By the time my family got to a restaurant, it was usually late and the juvenile blood sugar was low. Often dinner took a noticeable turn for the better once the younger folks got a few calories down (and Dad got some gin ). Bring them fries on! I am told (by my wife and by my mother) that the males in my family are particularly unpleasant once they reach a certain level of hunger. This is surely trueof my father and my son, though I think it skipped a generation with me .

Hm, thinking back, we were not expected to make "dinner conversation" if we were eating with other adults. We were supposed to answer questions politely if we were asked, but my parents would have looked askance at kids butting into adult conversation, or making their adult friends talk to the kids, until we got old enough to be able to have opinions about politics and the like. Otherwise we ate, drank our milk, and waited to be excused. If the group was big enough (Thanksgiving, Christmas) the "kids' table" made an appearance and we were sent off to the kitchen.

I always thought that the whole point of books and crayons wasn't to amuse the kids, but to prevent the parents from having to talk to them. God, trapped for two hours in a restaurant trying make conversation with a six-year-old: a taste of purgatory if you ask me, like being trapped on the subway without something to read.

[Heather]

I always thought that the whole point of books and crayons wasn't to amuse the kids, but to prevent the parents from having to talk to them. God, trapped for two hours in a restaurant trying make conversation with a six-year-old: a taste of purgatory if you ask me, like being trapped on the subway without something to read.

Amen. Scott and I mostly bring stuff for the kids to do so that we can talk to each other.

[blakegwinn]

...but they cannot permit them to smoke (in D.C., anyway).

Absolutely not. Apples and oranges to me. When you are talking about public and employee health regulation the government has every right to regulate, just like an owner can't use much cheaper asbestos insulation, legally serve rotten or contaminated meat or lash their servers when they don't do something right. (as much as they may want to).

[bilrus]

shattered wine glass... not allowed to touch the beer pitcher.

Am I sensing a pattern here?

[deangold]

or lash their servers when they don't do something right. (as much as they may want to).

I can't?!?!?

What ever will we do for fun at the pre shift now that I know this?

[blakegwinn]

I can't?!?!?

What ever will we do for fun at the pre shift now that I know this?

Dean, that was LASH not FLASH. (Both would be considered cruel and especially unusual I think)

[smokey]

I had avoided posting in this thread about kids and eating out, because I find the topic one where there is very little middle ground and a lot of grumpy folks (myself included). But, I've gotten sort of intrigued by some of the stuff about 'being in somebody's home and following their rules' (to paraphrase) and my own thoughts when I go into a restaurant.

So, just consider this my musings (worth every penny, and all).

I don't normally think of a restaurant as an extension of somebody's living/dining room, and I don't normally think of myself as the guest of an owner. When I am a guest, I'm usually not paying for something (in my mind). I am pretty comfortable being described as a customer, not a guest. I probably haven't taken enough hospitality coursework or something! In most of my restaurant-going, there only rarely is an owner obviously present--a person who I can see and talk to about anything going on in the restaurant. And, I swear to you, McDonalds is not the restaurant I eat out in most. Even at a place like Blacks (just as an example of a place where most DR.com folks know there is an actual, local owner), I wouldn't know what Jeff and Barbara Black look like and probably wouldn't approach them to talk about something I particularly liked or disliked. Nonetheless, when I go to a restaurant, I usually follow what I consider to be pretty conventional rules of etiquette--I don't stand on sofas or chairs, I don't lick knives (and more importantly, I don't lick knives and then stick them into a condiment jar ), my kids don't run around like wild banshees (unless my hosts kids are doing it!). Just because, in my mind, I'm not a guest in somebody's house, doesn't mean that I treat the dining area like a free-for-all zone without rules.

Although there are some items in my home that are on display that I would be crushed if somebody broke, that's not the usual state of my house. It's hard for me to imagine putting out things that I would be so upset if people broke. Particularly in a situation where the people coming in to 'my house, my foru walls' aren't my friends, but a series of strangers. So, I guess I find it a bit odd that somebody would place beloved salt and pepper shakers on a table. Of course, I recognize that that is part of what gives CO Kitchen its charm. The selection of chairs, drinks, salt and pepper shakers isn't something corporate or distant, but intensely personal. I guess I feel like there needs to be some balance between that intensely personal nature and taking the loss of one of those items *so* personally.

Finally, I do subscribe to the rule that while I may have rules in my house for my children, I don't hold the children of my guests to those rules (with a few exceptions, e.g. biting a person is never ok!). And, if necessary, I explain the relative nature of rules to my child after my guests leave (yes, you were allowed to do X when Janie was here, but you know that the rules in our house are that you can't do X). Ultimately, my goal is that my guests be comfortable in my home. If that means that Janie needs to be fed the one dish she will eat and that my guests are going to bring it and need to use my microwave to heat it up before we all sit down to the meal I've prepared, that's fine by me. It might not be the way I run things, but it's still ok.

[Joe Riley]

(Shamelessly lifted from the excellent www.waiterrant.net)

All I can say is, "Ouch!": http://waiterrant.net/wordpress2/?p=432#comments

Oh, and the comments are usually worth reading, too.

[Stretch]

How's this for etiquette? Our 2-year-old is an uncanny mimic and, as a result, we try hard to model politeness when the family eats together at home. This has some unexpected side effects when eating out, though. A few days ago, the two of us stopped at a local diner for lunch:

Waitress: "Would either of you gentlemen like more juice?"

Toddler: "No thanks, honey."

Dad and Waitress: "!!!???"

Waitress: "Well, you're pretty smooth for a little guy."

Dad: "He gets it from me."

Waitress: "Clearly not."

Toddler: "I cool dude! That's right!"

We definitely got an extra scoop of icecream with our dessert.

[Joe Riley]

Since my post was moved here, it is a tad cryptic, so here is some clarification:

50 signs your waiter might be an asshole: http://waiterrant.net/wordpress2/?p=433#comments

50 signs you might be an asshole customer: http://waiterrant.net/wordpress2/?p=432#comments

50 signs you're working in a bad restaurant: http://waiterrant.net/wordpress2/?p=431#comments

As I said, some of the ensuing comments are worth their weight in comedic gold.

[jpschust]

[starfish]

from a woman with a voice so shrill that it matches the moronic statement.

while looking at the wine list, "i can't remember if i like sparkling or still"

in reference to some jackass whose cell phone rings (chiming some contemptible pop song) for the fourth time, "for the love of god if you must have your cell phone in a restaurant, at least have the courtesy to put on vibrate. if you are afraid you won't feel it vibrate, shove it up your ass to be certain"

[deangold]

in reference to some jackass whose cell phone rings (chiming some contemptible pop song) for the fourth time,

Gotta love someone who, on a cold and windy night, leaves his/her cell phone with an annoyingly loud pop song ringtone in his/her coat pocket. Sure I'll riffle theu 100 coats to see which one has the cellphone!

[legant]

Today’s Tipping Dilemma: Went to a hotel (that shall remain nameless) for a lunchtime burger and cabernet at the bar. I kid you not: as soon as the burger hit the table the hotel’s fire alarm went off. I grabbed two fries and evacuated the building. While outside, the wait staff mentioned that this was probably a “drill,” to time how quickly the hotel could be evacuated. [interestingly enough, I saw no hotel guest on the street; just restaurant staff.] In fact, we were outside for ~ 5 minutes.

I eventually returned to my burger. I found that my “rare” burger had, in fact, been cooked “well done.” And, the fries were lukewarm at best. When the wait staff returned to ask about my meal I pointed out the “well-done” burger; she apologized and offered to have the burger cooked again. I refused ‘cause I: (1) was in between appointments and didn’t have the time to wait and (2) had eaten half of the burger and couldn’t imagine eating another full burger.

The question (which I now realize isn’t really about tipping): what should have been the response of the restaurant/hotel? Should they have discounted the meal because of the inconvenience of the fire drill? If it had been a real fire, was I under any obligation to pay the check? (I could have given the wait staff a $20, expecting it to settle my tab. What if I was paying by CC?) In case of a real fire, should I tip the wait staff for services rendered prior to the alarm? How much?

[porcupine]

On Bogarting a Barstool

Recently S and I were having dinner at a no-reservations place where people dine at or near the bar. A woman arrived, sat on a stool at the bar, and draped her coat and whatnot over the next barstool. [No, I'm not a snoop, really. She was directly in my line of sight, so every time I looked up she's the first thing I saw.] A long time later - like, 45 minutes - she was still nursing a glass of wine and reading a book, which would have been fine if a couple hadn't walked in and were clearly looking for a place to sit. They had to reach across the bar right next to the wine drinker to accept menus and drinks from the bartender. The wine drinker clearly saw all this [okay, at this point I was snooping, I'll admit] but never moved her stuff. That stool was the only one not holding an actual human body. The couple seemed never to say anything. The bartender and manager never did, either, though I saw them watching the situation develop.

Frankly I don't like being crammed in next to strangers, either, and I like to keep my coat nearby, but that's part of the price we pay to dine in public. If someone is clearly trying to find a place to sit I'll move my stuff. As a matter of fact, at least twice S and I have noticed that there were single unoccupied stools on either side of us, and have offered to move over to allow another couple to sit together. And I've been asked to do the same thing when I had my head deep in a book and didn't notice the situation, and was happy to comply.

I was going to ask what you all thought, but I know the answers. "The couple should have politely asked her to move her stuff", or "they should have asked management to help", or "the manager should have done something as soon as she saw it developing".

Human behavior is endlessly fascinating. It's incredibly rude to bogart a public space like that. I just felt the need to tell the story so I can forget about it.

[DonRocks]

I just felt the need to tell the story so I can forget about it.

Stress Relief.

Turn speakers on. Stare at picture for 60 seconds without laughing.

[Mark Slater]

On Bogarting a Barstool

Recently S and I were having dinner at a no-reservations place where people dine at or near the bar. A woman arrived, sat on a stool at the bar, and draped her coat and whatnot over the next barstool. [No, I'm not a snoop, really. She was directly in my line of sight, so every time I looked up she's the first thing I saw.] A long time later - like, 45 minutes - she was still nursing a glass of wine and reading a book, which would have been fine if a couple hadn't walked in and were clearly looking for a place to sit. They had to reach across the bar right next to the wine drinker to accept menus and drinks from the bartender. The wine drinker clearly saw all this [okay, at this point I was snooping, I'll admit] but never moved her stuff. That stool was the only one not holding an actual human body. The couple seemed never to say anything. The bartender and manager never did, either, though I saw them watching the situation develop.

Frankly I don't like being crammed in next to strangers, either, and I like to keep my coat nearby, but that's part of the price we pay to dine in public. If someone is clearly trying to find a place to sit I'll move my stuff. As a matter of fact, at least twice S and I have noticed that there were single unoccupied stools on either side of us, and have offered to move over to allow another couple to sit together. And I've been asked to do the same thing when I had my head deep in a book and didn't notice the situation, and was happy to comply.

I was going to ask what you all thought, but I know the answers. "The couple should have politely asked her to move her stuff", or "they should have asked management to help", or "the manager should have done something as soon as she saw it developing".

Human behavior is endlessly fascinating. It's incredibly rude to bogart a public space like that. I just felt the need to tell the story so I can forget about it.

A good bartender would have handled it without incident.

[porcupine]

Stress Relief.

Turn speakers on. Stare at picture for 60 seconds without laughing.

And it's a Ferrari!

[Pat]

That stool was the only one not holding an actual human body.

I'll move if asked so that seats can be reconfigured--or offer to do it if I notice a problem. In this case it sounds like there was only one seat but two people looking to sit, so one seat wouldn't have fixed the problem. Maybe the wine drinker realized that and that's why she didn't make a move to offer the seat. I guess one of the couple could sit and one could stand, but if I saw they were getting menus, I'd assume they're sitting somewhere else nearby (a bar table, say).

[Al Dente]

In this case it sounds like there was only one seat but two people looking to sit, so one seat wouldn't have fixed the problem. Maybe the wine drinker realized that and that's why she didn't make a move to offer the seat.

No. Please refer to one of the many "entitled asshole" threads. When I see this kind of thing, soooo often on the Metro especially, I can only come up with two explanations-- they're either incredibly rude or incredibly stupid.

[Pat]

No. Please refer to one of the many "entitled asshole" threads. When I see this kind of thing, soooo often on the Metro especially, I can only come up with two explanations-- they're either incredibly rude or incredibly stupid.

On the metro, if five people step on together and the only non-human-occupied seat has a coat/backpack on it, then one of those people can easily sit if the objects are moved. If two people come in to a bar/restaurant together and want to eat together, one seat doesn't really help.

If this woman had her coat on one seat and the one on the other side was unoccupied, then she should certainly have offered to relocate herself and her stuff. It sounds like she was not even asked to vacate the seat she had her coat on. If one of those people really wanted/needed to sit, they could have asked.

[Waitman]

On the metro, if five people step on together and the only non-human-occupied seat has a coat/backpack on it, then one of those people can easily sit if the objects are moved. If two people come in to a bar/restaurant together and want to eat together, one seat doesn't really help.

If this woman had her coat on one seat and the one on the other side was unoccupied, then she should certainly have offered to relocate herself and her stuff. It sounds like she was not even asked to vacate the seat she had her coat on. If one of those people really wanted/needed to sit, they could have asked.

Everyone annexes the stool next to them if it's slow and they have stuff to carry. By the time the only stool left open at the bar is the one with your stuff on it, if you're not a cretin, you know it's time to move it. Not doing so is the worst kind of passive-aggressive crap. One shouldn't have to ask for common courtesy. It should be, you know, common.

And, often, one seat is plenty for a couple. One sits down, spreads out the menu, orders stuff while the other scrunches provacatively up behind and nibbles on hors d'oevres and their date's neck. (This works less well with strangers).

[Al Dente]

On the metro, if five people step on together and the only non-human-occupied seat has a coat/backpack on it, then one of those people can easily sit if the objects are moved. If two people come in to a bar/restaurant together and want to eat together, one seat doesn't really help.

If this woman had her coat on one seat and the one on the other side was unoccupied, then she should certainly have offered to relocate herself and her stuff. It sounds like she was not even asked to vacate the seat she had her coat on. If one of those people really wanted/needed to sit, they could have asked.

I have stood many times while my date/wife/mistress/dominatrix sat at the one available bar seat.

In my world, I would have this burning flush of mild discomfort creep up my back if I looked at one, two, or twenty people who were politely reaching past me for their drinks while my coat/backpack/accordian/bloody chainsaw occupied the seat next to me. They shouldn't have to ask.

[Pat]

Everyone annexes the stool next to them if it's slow and they have stuff to carry. By the time the only stool left open at the bar is the one with your stuff on it, if you're not a cretin, you know it's time to move it. Not doing so is the worst kind of passive-aggressive crap. One shouldn't have to ask for common courtesy. It should be, you know, common.

Maybe it was a really good book .

[goldenticket]

I have to agree with Al D. on this one. During a vist to Central, we had an experience similar to what Porcupine described above. One of the high tables in the bar had coats draped over a chair but nobody was sitting at, or standing near, the table. We checked out the table, looked around, didn't see obvious owners of the coats. Eventually we figured out they belonged to a group sitting/standing at the bar and asked if they were using the table. They moved the coats, with a bit of attitude, and we sat down. I found it irritating that they had obviously seen us looking around, knew that the bar was crowded and they were preventing the table from being used, and did generally act like EAs when asked to make room for some other paying customers.

As for one stool not working for two folks, often it's better than nothing, especially if it looks like a second spot might be opening up soon.

[Dave Pressley]

I've seen this situation happen many times on both sides. The most interesting, for lack of a better word, was when a couch in our lounge at Tallula (now the back lounge of EatBar) was occupied by the coats and purses of 5 ladies while they were standing and socializing with friends. An older man approached the couch, saw that nobody was using it for a seat and decided to unceremoniously chuck all of the coats and purses on the floor so he and his date could sit down. This started a LOUD, curse-laden argument between the 7 people at which point, it was called to my attention and I had to intervene.

Without lengthening the story any longer with details, my solution was to ask the man to leave for the evening (he was obviously intoxicated once I spoke with him) and I took the ladies' coats into my office for the duration of their visit. They actually stayed, moved to the dining room, had dinner and became friends of the restaurant.

[porcupine]

As for one stool not working for two folks, often it's better than nothing, especially if it looks like a second spot might be opening up soon.

I didn't stay to see the end of the show, but I believe they were trying to get drinks and look at the menu while waiting for a table. But that's all beside the point. What Waitman and Al Dente said.

[DonRocks]

I do it on Amtrak and pretend to be asleep.

[pizza man]

perhaps, in a slightly ruder and passive aggressive world, the couple could have "spilled" their wine on the chair with the coat.

Americans become ruder and more selfish everyday..

[Ilaine]

They shouldn't have to ask, but if they do, ask politely, and give politely.

Share the toys.

If you notice someone needs something and it's no skin off your nose, be nice.

If you're in charge of a space that caters to people's needs, be proactive.

We all learned about this in kindergarten, didn't we?

See, wasn't that easy?

[Pat]

If you're in charge of a space that caters to people's needs, be proactive.

What about people who want so much personal space around them that you inadvertently cut in front of them in line because you didn't realize they were in line? I've encountered this one several times in the past year with people who were standing far enough back that it didn't even occur to me to ask if they were in line. (I can only think of one food-related instance of this, and I was a witness to it, but that one does make it relevant ). The rage that has exploded from these people has made me overly cautious, so I now often ask people if they're in line when they're standing so far away, they look at me funny.

Definitions of personal space in the US have been changing, and that's an additional factor. It's understood that people stand pretty far back from a person using an ATM, but what about people applying that to other lines?

Given the rudeness that's possible, someone being too inattentive to notice someone needs a seat ranks pretty far down the scale for me, while someone who refuses to give up a seat when asked or studiously ignores someone who wants the seat rates a lot higher. (I wasn't there so I don't know if the woman in the above case clearly realized they wanted the seat and was refusing to acknowledge it or if she was just wrapped up in her book and not paying attention. I was giving the benefit of the doubt.)

The optimal situation is for people to be attuned to the needs of other people and proactively generous, but often they aren't even generous enough to accept the apology of someone who has inadvertently slighted them.

[beezy]

Can we add another variety of selfish jackassery to this list? The placeholders. The people who come to an unreserved seating area, and proceed to drape all their crap all over the place so the mass legions of their party will be able to join them at some unforeseeable point in the future, while the rest of us must stand/cram themselves into small spaces.

Last night at the lounge at Zola, crowded pre-hockey game, there were two ladies who had taken six chairs for some party who were coming in '10 minutes'. Another had two ladies taking up two tables and four chairs, for a full 40 minutes until their companions joined them. 40 minutes!

What completely steams me about this is that restaurants do not seem to care. Is it ultimately better for business to have two EAs take up table space, or have the six of us who were standing sit down immediately, linger and order more than the glass of wine that I settled on because it was too crowded? I can see being lenient about this during slow periods, but when it's crammed when there is any event at the Verizon, does it seem sensible to permit this kind of thing?

Say what you want about not seating parties until they're complete - at least someone ELSE gets a fair shake.

I have to say that I'm with the coat-dumper at EatBar - if I saw a set of couches being used as a coat rack in a crowded bar, I'd be mighty tempted to dispose of them myself.

Owners and managers: couldja please, please, please install more coathooks and racks in your bars? Or the height of civilization, the coat hook under the bar? There's a place for my purse and coat, and the bar seat is for my fanny only. Everyone's happy.

Beezy, about to become one of those drink-spillers

[Dave Pressley]

Can we add another variety of selfish jackassery to this list? The placeholders. The people who come to an unreserved seating area, and proceed to drape all their crap all over the place so the mass legions of their party will be able to join them at some unforeseeable point in the future, while the rest of us must stand/cram themselves into small spaces.

Last night at the lounge at Zola, crowded pre-hockey game, there were two ladies who had taken six chairs for some party who were coming in '10 minutes'. Another had two ladies taking up two tables and four chairs, for a full 40 minutes until their companions joined them. 40 minutes!

What completely steams me about this is that restaurants do not seem to care. Is it ultimately better for business to have two EAs take up table space, or have the six of us who were standing sit down immediately, linger and order more than the glass of wine that I settled on because it was too crowded? I can see being lenient about this during slow periods, but when it's crammed when there is any event at the Verizon, does it seem sensible to permit this kind of thing?

Say what you want about not seating parties until they're complete - at least someone ELSE gets a fair shake.

I have to say that I'm with the coat-dumper at EatBar - if I saw a set of couches being used as a coat rack in a crowded bar, I'd be mighty tempted to dispose of them myself.

Owners and managers: couldja please, please, please install more coathooks and racks in your bars? Or the height of civilization, the coat hook under the bar? There's a place for my purse and coat, and the bar seat is for my fanny only. Everyone's happy.

Beezy, about to become one of those drink-spillers

Aw, c'mon Beezy. You seem much more savvy than to become a drink spiller or coat dumper a la the Tallula incident!

In the case of the Zola incident, I agree with you implicitly. In this case, if you had contacted a manager, they would have most certainly moved the "placeholders" to allow your group to sit down...at least, I would have. Some people may have a problem with this approach, but I personally have always placed priority with the people that are already in the bar and looking for a seat, rather than people who are "on the way". (The same way I always place a phone call on hold to interact with someone standing in front of me.)

As for the Tallula incident, there is NO WAY that just tossing people's coats on the floor would EVER be an acceptable way to remedy the situation. By every account that evening, the guy didn't even check to see who owned the coats or anything. The least he should have done was to tell the bartender what was going on so we could have removed the coats ourselves and hung them up. This particular man was full-on trying to be a dick and he succeeded.

There is seemingly such a shortage of pleasant people these days. Don't join the dark side!

[Walrus]

Not to be Darth Walrus, but I don't really have a problem with holding seats (within reason). If Tripewriter is doing the gentlemanly thing and letting me out at the restaurant while he scours the area for a parking space, I have no compunction about saving a seat for him. I don't think I'd do it for any size group, though (perhaps saving two other chairs if Tripewriter and I are the first ones there and are being joined by one other couple?). I also take seats at Eammon's while Tripewriter orders (or vice versa).

[Waitman]

Not to be Darth Walrus, but I don't really have a problem with holding seats (within reason). If Tripewriter is doing the gentlemanly thing and letting me out at the restaurant while he scours the area for a parking space, I have no compunction about saving a seat for him. I don't think I'd do it for any size group, though (perhaps saving two other chairs if Tripewriter and I are the first ones there and are being joined by one other couple?). I also take seats at Eammon's while Tripewriter orders (or vice versa).

Holding a chair for a brief time while one other person -- who is already on the radar screen -- accomplishes a necessary but painful task is totally groovy. Showing up an hour before friends are even supposed to arrive (or when you have no accurate guage of when they will arrive) is less so. This is why I complain less about restaurants who enforce the "whole party must be ready" rule than others on this board.

[hillvalley]

Dear Restaurant,

Please turn down the ringer on your phone. I appreciate that you need to hear the phone ring, but listening to it ring loudly a dozen times before our appetizers are finished kills the romantic atmosphere you are trying to create.

Dear Fellow Customer,

I'm sorry I got a table before you did. We came early so we could have a quiet dinner for two at a booth that sits four. The meal moves at a pace set by the restaurant so we can't wait any faster during our courses. Please do not shoot me dirty glances just because there is no food on the table. I would like my course to arrive just as much as you would. And while you wait, please do not pace around the dining room and stare at the food. In return, I promise to enjoy my meal at a respectable pace and not linger after the check is paid.

Sincerely,

Just trying enjoy a special meal

[synaesthesia]

This may be more pointed at the restaurant we were at. While I understand the need for you to bolt your bar tables to the wall so they won't be moved around, did you really need to bolt them so close together? I had a ton of trouble trying to squeeze my not-all-that-big legs under the table because the gentleman seated behind me had his chair pushed out not all that far so that I couldn't push my seat back away from my table. I spent a good amount of time with my legs at an angle, which is hardly appropriate for the restaurant that we were at. You make it hard to sit properly, and I will not act with decorum. I asked him to scoot forward a little, but it wasn't really quite enough.

[DonRocks]

This may be more pointed at the restaurant we were at. While I understand the need for you to bolt your bar tables to the wall so they won't be moved around, did you really need to bolt them so close together? I had a ton of trouble trying to squeeze my not-all-that-big legs under the table because the gentleman seated behind me had his chair pushed out not all that far so that I couldn't push my seat back away from my table. I spent a good amount of time with my legs at an angle, which is hardly appropriate for the restaurant that we were at. You make it hard to sit properly, and I will not act with decorum. I asked him to scoot forward a little, but it wasn't really quite enough.

Try the "pole position" at Proof sometime!

[synaesthesia]

Try the "pole position" at Proof sometime!

Well, since you named names... that was exactly the location of the situation... and I needed to lift one leg around to get around the other side...

[DonRocks]

Well, since you named names... that was exactly the location of the situation... and I needed to lift one leg around to get around the other side...

I was actually talking about sitting on Mark Kuller's lap!

Seriously though, the one deuce by the column is really intended for solo diners. The opposing chair is more for aesthetics than any practical use. An architectural flub? Perhaps, but I don't see how they can undo it now without a lot of commotion. (I assume this isn't the table you're talking about, because the chair in question backs up to the column.)

[hmmboy]

I was actually talking about sitting on Mark Kuller's lap!

Seriously though, the one deuce by the column is really intended for solo diners. The opposing chair is more for aesthetics than any practical use. An architectural flub? Perhaps, but I don't see how they can undo it now without a lot of commotion. (I assume this isn't the table you're talking about, because the chair in question backs up to the column.)

First of all Don - I told you my reaction that night had nothing to do with you - it was the great Bordeaux you brought. Despite numerous requests on your part I have repeatedly told you that was strictly a one time thrill.

Jamie - first let me apologize for your experience - we really work hard to make sure each guest is comfortable in every imaginable way. The way our bar and lounge get sometimes makes that goal a difficult if not impossible one. No doubt that the 3 2-tops behind the red sofa are tight - particularly the 2 that "butt" up against the columns, especially the one near the dining room banquets which is what I believe Don is referring to. It may have been an overambitious design but it was compounded by a mistake by our millworker which we did the best we could to ameliorate. Please see me or Seb next time and we will do our best to find you roomier accomodations. Or at least play chair monitor. My dining room seating was definitely a mistake - way too roomy and comfy - people seem to linger for hours in those booths, banquets, and chairs. I'll know for the next time - small, uncomfortable chairs and bright lighting means quick turn time and lots more covers.....

[synaesthesia]

First of all Don - I told you I had been overserved that night and despite numerous requests on your part I have repeatedly told you that was strictly a one time thrill.

Jamie - first let me apologize for your experience - we really work hard to make sure each guest is comfortable in every imaginable way. The way our bar and lounge get sometimes makes that goal a difficult if not impossible one. No doubt that the 3 2-tops behind the red sofa are tight - particularly the 2 that "butt" up against the columns, especially the one near the dining room banquets which is what I believe Don is referring to. It may have been an overambitious design but it was compounded by a mistake by our millworker which we did the best we could to ameliorate. Please see me or Seb next time and we will do our best to find you roomier accomodations. Or at least play chair monitor. My dining room seating was definitely a mistake - way too roomy and comfy - people seem to linger for hours in those booths, banquets, and chairs. I'll know for the next time - small, uncomfortable chairs and bright lighting means quick turn time and lots more covers.....

No prob. All in stride. It was actually the ones that are up against the tall wall. It's not uncomfortable, more awkward. Or maybe the man just had a large butt. =D

[chickenlover]

Here's a question about food evangelism that might spark some discussion;

Went to PX Friday night to cap off a late Valentine's celebration. They were finishing a private function, so we hung out in Eamonn's with a fried snickers and lurched up to the door out of our diabetic stupor when our reservation was ready. Classy all the way, love the little window, the bar was gorgeous and I oohed and aahed over the liquor cabinet. My wife loved the corner room we were directed to, the beeswax candles really set the mood well. I ordered a grog and milady got a fig concoction. Both were amazing. The grog could launch a thousand pirates into the Bertuccis across the street.

Then a foursome of hill staffers from Georgia came in and they did nothing but bitch. They mocked the reservation system, exclaimed that "they didn't see the big deal," impugned the hostess's honor, scanned the menu and complained that "I just wanted a margarita or something," when the hand-made drinks didn't come out fast enough one of the darlings said something along the lines of "Jesus, don't they just use a mix?", etc.

The potato chips were "all right, I guess."

The hostess was actually nice enough to ask if everything was all right when we left when our drinks were done. My wife said that the room had gotten too loud, which was politely true. The question, then, is what was keeping us from gently guiding the people in that room to some sort of sense of what makes the PX work. If a place is good enough, at some point you pass from being a diner to being a participant in the general atmosphere. I wore a three-piece suit that, honestly, no longer fit me because deep down we wanted to play dress-up and go to a speakeasy.

Who's job is it to keep that atmosphere going? The diner has to be at least moderately knowledgeable about what they're getting into; who in that party made the reservation without knowing where they were going? I don't think the staff has to do anything extra, as they've got enough going on and no restaurant staff should be called on the enforce "who gets it". We were both too sleepy and too moderately pissed off to do what may have been our job, then, in bringing the good news of handcrafted drinks to these other diners. The other option, which was briefly considered, would be stabbing them in the forehead with a mint julep spoon and snorting around for brains.

I've been seated next to douchebags in all types of restaurants. I don't know what you can do about it except eat at home or maybe move to a city with a lower per capita douchebag population.

[derekmbrown]

Who's job is it to keep that atmosphere going? The diner has to be at least moderately knowledgeable about what they're getting into; who in that party made the reservation without knowing where they were going? I don't think the staff has to do anything extra, as they've got enough going on and no restaurant staff should be called on the enforce "who gets it". We were both too sleepy and too moderately pissed off to do what may have been our job, then, in bringing the good news of handcrafted drinks to these other diners. The other option, which was briefly considered, would be stabbing them in the forehead with a mint julep spoon and snorting around for brains.

"We have no words for speaking of wisdom to the stupid. He who understands the wise is wise already."

-G.C. Lichtenberg

No need to evangelize. Their dissatisfaction will probably weed them out from a second visit. Next time you make it to PX, they will more than likely being tossing back Gatorade-flavored Margaritas at [name a crappy bar].

[Meaghan]

Who's job is it to keep that atmosphere going? The diner has to be at least moderately knowledgeable about what they're getting into; who in that party made the reservation without knowing where they were going? I don't think the staff has to do anything extra, as they've got enough going on and no restaurant staff should be called on the enforce "who gets it". We were both too sleepy and too moderately pissed off to do what may have been our job, then, in bringing the good news of handcrafted drinks to these other diners. The other option, which was briefly considered, would be stabbing them in the forehead with a mint julep spoon and snorting around for brains.

I send my advance team to do a tool scan about twenty minutes before I arrive. Honestly, I have so little tolerance for idiots after working with them all day, I just assume not go out on overly tooly nights like Valentine's Day. You are a brave and honorable man. Someone should have pointed the Georgians to Austin Grill.