Etiquette, The Two-Way Street

[Barbara]

I'm confused and WORRIED: Did anybody set your place on fire?

No a little girl intruded. The BTU's are coming from the stove.

Awrighty then. I just don't understand this. From the time I can remember (Yes, I was three), my family travelled across the country from time to time and we stayed in motels and ate all of our meals in restaurants of one sort or another. I was taught from the beginning how to behave--or risk being taken out and spanked. What the hell has happened in the interim???

Gillian, you have my sympathies. And, I never had food like you put out in our travels.

[synaesthesia]

I get the impression that the alarm she is referring to is perhaps a kitchen door alarm, and the girl just compounded the already stressful situation?

NO NO...you're not getting me. There is no alarm. I said that if there were an alarm we would have been alerted to an intruder....but there is no alarm. The little girl in the kitchen was stressful.

Heh... that's what I meant. I just didn't word it well.

[Pat]

This is why I dislike talking to open table and like talking to people.

Last (the only) time I tried OT, they told me I couldn't get a table at CityZen for Mrs. B's birthday. So I called and the reservationist hooked me right up. OT: not for me.

I find that Open Table works pretty well for standard reservations, but getting into any kind of complicated situation (e.g., we don't know if it's a party of 3 or 4), it makes more sense to talk to a person. Certain (higher-end) restaurants also seem to block times out to accomodate people who contact them directly. I've encountered a couple of instances of there not being tables available on a day we really wanted a reservation at a particular place, and I've been able to get a table for a time not available on OT by calling the restaurant.

On the other hand, someone I know in California was unable to get through on the phone to The French Laundry after trying for months and finally got his reservation through Open Table. (This was a number of years ago.)

[rappahannock]

Oh I have a great one... A child, because his mother wouldn't make the waiter get him some Mountain Dew (which we don't serve), he decides to grab a ceramic chicken off a side table and smash it on the floor. Once smashed he said (and I kid you not) now get me a mountain dew or I'll smash something else. It took every fiber in my being not to impale the little bastard. The mother, clueless as she was, wasn't going to pay for the ornament. So I tacked the cost of the thing to the folks who booked the party. When they questioned it I suggested they take it up with the mother. Of course I was made out to be the bad person, not allowing children to be children. Now I don't have children myself, but jesus. If parents don't want restaurants to "profile" them, do one simple thing. Control your spawn...

[blakegwinn]

Oh I have a great one... A child, because his mother wouldn't make the waiter get him some Mountain Dew (which we don't serve), he decides to grab a ceramic chicken off a side table and smash it on the floor. Once smashed he said (and I kid you not) now get me a mountain dew or I'll smash something else. It took every fiber in my being not to impale the little bastard. The mother, clueless as she was, wasn't going to pay for the ornament. So I tacked the cost of the thing to the folks who booked the party. When they questioned it I suggested they take it up with the mother. Of course I was made out to be the bad person, not allowing children to be children. Now I don't have children myself, but jesus. If parents don't want restaurants to "profile" them, do one simple thing. Control your spawn...

This has nothing to do with children, no children, manners, hospitality etc. It's VERY simple, you break it you buy it in my opinion.

[blakegwinn]

I had a 6-7 year old ask for a Pellegrino and tell me "It better be pellegrino and not just soda. If it is plain soda I am sending it back." Later on she informed me her mac and cheese would also be sent back if there was anything green touching it. (We typically garnish with a TINY bit of fresh chopped herbs) Her mom was having a conversation with the other mom at the table and didn't so much as bat an eye so I guess that must be pretty normal behavior. It just seemed so strange coming out of such a pint sized package. And it was not in an asking sort of way either. If you could see the attitude in her face, she was actually condescending me. After dealing with the mothers throughout the rest of the meal though it all made sense.

[rappahannock]

The point I was trying to make was children need to behave when in public, PERIOD. Break it or buy is all well and good, but the fact is the thing would not have been broken if that parent was minding him. Furthermore, do you think the kid would break something at home if he didn't get what they wanted? Mind your kids in public, period, or face the social and economic consequences.

[crackers]

The point I was trying to make was children need to behave when in public, PERIOD.

No, parents need to teach and make their children behave when in public. If they can't, they should either not bring the children somewhere inappropriate, or leave the premises when it is apparent they can no longer control them. [And, um...the same goes for unruly adult companions too.] There is a big difference between behavior that is due to childish immaturity (e.g. a toddler dropping a glass on the floor, for which I know of no restaurant that would charge a customer) and deliberate disobedience (a kid smashing an expensive knick-knack on the floor.) And that's all I'm gonna say about kids and restaurants because I find the whole subject utterly boring, and will probably regret having said anything at all.

[Destruya]

If you value your sanity (or are in a working environment), please do not peruse any other comics at this site (seriously, I am not joking). I have included direct links (in correct order) so you don't have to actually visit the site. The worst these have is bad language, so if that offends you, shy away.

http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20020325.jpg

http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20020326.jpg

http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20020406.jpg

http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20020407.jpg

http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20020408.jpg

http://www.flemcomics.com/comics/20020416.jpg

Fair warning, the other strips on the site do not talk about the food service industry, and are quite raw and VERY not work safe. You have been warned. These ones are fine (other than the aforementioned bad language), though.

No, parents need to teach and make their children behave when in public. If they can't, they should either not bring the children somewhere inappropriate, or leave the premises when it is apparent they can no longer control them.

I remember when I was younger and we were in New York, we decided to go to Windows on the World (this was in the late 80s). I had to be around 6 or 7, and as I walked in, my mother now describes that the whole place's atmosphere (both staff and patron) just dropped a bit, because "oh god, here's a whiny little brat to ruin our dining experience."

I had Legos and Micro Machines, so I entertained myself quietly all damned night, even prompting the Chef to come out and compliment my parents on how well I was behaved.

So yes, it can be done - bringing a child into a nice restaurant - it just can't be done in this day and age of parents not showing their kids the meaning of consequences and imparting on them the importance of not disturbing other people.

[MsDiPesto]

It's not just in restaurants, it's everywhere, as there are certain parents who have impressed a bogus sense of entitlement on their spawn. Usually, the parents are just as unbearable. One hopes the parents responsible will meet with some form of behavior correction one of these days.

Someone had a good term on here sometime ago: EAF, which stood for entitled a**h*le factor.

[deangold]

There was a hypothetical restaurant in a large and soulless city on the west coast of a large city. I may or may not have worked there. We may have sold bready discs covered with sauce or not. In any case, the following is all imaginary.

There was a big shot hollywood TV star who would bring in his spawn of hell, I mean adorable little daughter.

One day, we had used a new pest control service. They bombed the place over night. I came into 3 inches of dead little crawlies on the floor and irate upstairs neighbors. I spent all morning trying to conduct funerals for the little shits, whan I realized that our window was covered in a sticky slime and it was opening time and we had a line at the door. So I said fuck it and let folk in.

At the height of the rush, this big shot brought his little girl in and plopped down on a 4 top that was reserved for a very nice customer. But I couldn't throw his ass out because he was a celeb and, after refusing to book Madonna's reservation (long story), I was told by my boss to kiss ass as far as necessary to the stars. So screw my regulars, big shot got his ass kissed. Little daughter (7 or 8 years old and dressed in ralph Lauren) was screaming from the start. Little daughter threw all her toys all around the floor and started running around the room. I tried as quietly as possible to shush her and control her knowing full well that daddy would scream at me if I so much as dipped her head in the deep fryer which is what I wanted to do. By now half the dining room is glaring at me. Daughter keeps on getting more and more amped and finally starts crashing against the window. I mention to Big Shit (Ohh how bad is my spelling today)... "ummmm, dude (actually I called him by his name), maybe...."

"You asshole, how dare you tell me how to raise my daughter!"

By now she was actually licking the nameless goo off the window. Somethines all one can do is shut the fuck up. SO I did.

[Sthitch]

It is stories like these that makes me wish someone would market ether towelettes.

[brettashley01]

When I was a hostess at a fine Italian restaurant in New York, I had mary janes- yes the shoes, black and patent- thrown at me from the second story balcony- because she couldn'tsit on her mother's lap. Not my fault. Yet I was in the middle of the battle.

[giant shrimp]

So when Robin was rushing to the sink with the hot oil filled saute pans she wouldn't have had to dodge the seven year old girl from table 10 that had run through the double doors and into our tiny kitchen.

what would you say if the girl, instead of seven years old, was 37 and complaining, in a nice way, of an inordinately long wait at her table between appetizers and entrees? to her credit, she attempted to remedy the problem with the waiter first, by suggesting that she had been waiting so long that she now only had time for dessert, at which point he went into hiding. luckily, the restaurant, although small, had more people working in the kitchen than yours, and the sous chef walked her back to the table, with her food. how's that for a happy ending?

[Mark Slater]

This is weird. When little kids come into our kitchen, we give them chef hats.

[dinwiddie]

Oh I have a great one... A child, because his mother wouldn't make the waiter get him some Mountain Dew (which we don't serve), he decides to grab a ceramic chicken off a side table and smash it on the floor. Once smashed he said (and I kid you not) now get me a mountain dew or I'll smash something else. It took every fiber in my being not to impale the little bastard. The mother, clueless as she was, wasn't going to pay for the ornament. So I tacked the cost of the thing to the folks who booked the party. When they questioned it I suggested they take it up with the mother. Of course I was made out to be the bad person, not allowing children to be children. Now I don't have children myself, but jesus. If parents don't want restaurants to "profile" them, do one simple thing. Control your spawn...

Of course it goes both ways. Several years ago I was in a family style restaurant out in the country where there were all kinds of bric brac on shelves, counters, etc. everywhere. It was extremely cold (it was January) and as a family was leaving, the little girl (probably around 7 years old) knocked one of them to the floor as she was putting on her bulky coat. She immediately started crying "I didn't mean to" with tears flowing. The girl's mother, instead of trying to calm the child, told her in a very angry voice, "Just wait til we get home, that is coming out of your allowance." The owner rushed up and told the child not to worry, it was ok, things like that happen all the time, and she wouldn't have to pay for it. As she was calming down the child, the cook, a huge gentleman, took the mother aside and told her in a voice that nobody but those of us standing there could hear that she needed to calm the child, not threaten her.

Yes parents need to teach their children to behave, but they also have to remember that they are children.

[Waitman]

This is weird. When little kids come into our kitchen, we give them chef hats.

I want one, too. Does just being immature count?

[KOK]

I had a 6-7 year old ask for a Pellegrino and tell me "It better be pellegrino and not just soda. If it is plain soda I am sending it back." Later on she informed me her mac and cheese would also be sent back if there was anything green touching it. (We typically garnish with a TINY bit of fresh chopped herbs) Her mom was having a conversation with the other mom at the table and didn't so much as bat an eye so I guess that must be pretty normal behavior. It just seemed so strange coming out of such a pint sized package. And it was not in an asking sort of way either. If you could see the attitude in her face, she was actually condescending me. After dealing with the mothers throughout the rest of the meal though it all made sense.

A real life 'Veruca Salt'.

Sthitch's "ether towelettes" - hilarious AND a great idea!!

Kevin

[Al Dente]

This is weird. When little kids come into our kitchen, we give them chef hats.

Your kitchen is a cathedral of serenity and calm compared with what appears to be cramped chaos at Colorado Kitchen.

I want a hat too!

[DLB]

This is weird. When little kids come into our kitchen, we give them chef hats.

I am sure if something went wrong while those kids are in the kitchen, God forbid, the parents would not be so forgiving. I am sure your restauarant would end up in court. Besides, the kitchen at CK is very small.

[Banco]

I am sure if something went wrong while those kids are in the kitchen, God forbid, the parents would not be so forgiving. I am sure your restauarant would end up in court. Besides, the kitchen at CK is very small.

Man this is a tough room. Not all parents are brat-enabling assholes. (Though I sympathize with any restaurant worker who has to put up with those that do turn up occasionally.)

[dinwiddie]

This is weird. When little kids come into our kitchen, we give them chef hats.

But I bet you invite them in. And I'm sure you wouldn't want one in your wine cellar, unless of course they insisted on drinking DRC and leaving an appropriate gratituity.

[mdt]

Your kitchen is a cathedral of serenity and calm compared with what appears to be cramped chaos at Colorado Kitchen.

I want a hat too!

Damn, I didn't get a hat either. I guess I was not acting mature enough the last time I was there!

[dirtymartini]

IMHA It should be noted that in the resturant biz we refer to customers as 'guests' and ourselves as 'hosts'. Just as ettiquette dictates the behavior of guests and hosts at dinner parties/parties, etc..so too would those rules apply to resturants/clubs, etc.

With certain exceptions of course. A guest in a resturant is free to send a sub-par meal back and, although as a host I would most likely bounce someone's head on the pavement for insulting me in my house.. a much more subversive approch is called for at work

[zoramargolis]

It's not just in restaurants, it's everywhere, as there are certain parents who have impressed a bogus sense of entitlement on their spawn. Usually, the parents are just as unbearable. One hopes the parents responsible will meet with some form of behavior correction one of these days.

Someone had a good term on here sometime ago: EAF, which stood for entitled a**h*le factor.

In the mental health biz, we describe this as "The Apple Doesn't Fall Far From the Tree Syndrome."

[tastedc]

Chiming in on children's behavior - ALL retail locations seem to be fair game for screaming kids - I hear screaming children at Starbucks, at Safeway, at Whole Foods (where I stared down the Mother of a screaming girl - I didn't look at the child - only at the Mother - she got the kid to "settle down") and pretty much at every restaurant - when I was a kid, I had to behave when I went to a restaurant or my father would say "do you want me to spank you in front of all these people!" - I shut up quick - it always worked!! I know the spanking thing is out for children, but children will behave if their parents take control of the situation.

But I do like the idea of having a "Children's Night" for Adults at Citronelle - what a novel idea!!

[DameEdna]

My neighbor was at a well-known Connecticut Ave. establishment (Timberlake's), When a four-year-old girl came over to talk to him.

It was the child of a woman who was busy schmoozing at the bar.

"Please take me to the bathroom, and hurry," the little girl said.

My neigbor could only think of his security clearance ... flying away.

[Heather]

Maybe I am being harsh. Just not into the "no kidz allowed" thing, especially at pretentious pizza joints.

(It always reminds me of this unpleasant chick on eGullet who not only refused to be friends with anyone who had children, or go to restaurants where they were welcome, but actually got ill if a child even touched her. It must be a barrel of laughs going anywhere with her.)

[jparrott]

And where do you draw the line? Can a well-mannered ten-year-old sit with the Big People? How about my worldly, stinky-cheese-loving-but-not-flaunting-it-to-everyone-who-moves thirteen-year-old niece?

Dean, here's your chance. Be open in the middle of the afternoon and I'll beat a path to your door!

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Maybe I am being harsh. Just not into the "no kidz allowed" thing, especially at pretentious pizza joints.

I guess there's a couple of ways to look at this. Some might say that by creating a space for adults without children actually opens up more space for families because they won't be competing for the same tables. I have to admit, sometimes it looks like Chucky Cheese in there with unsupervised kids running all over the place.

[Heather]

I have to admit, sometimes it looks like Chucky Cheese in there with unsupervised kids running all over the place.

That's the problem right there. Why do they allow that?

Jake, maybe they will have a secret door, a la PX.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

That's the problem right there. Why do they allow that?

Because if they tried to do anything about it, parents would exhibit this sentiment:

We'd rather take our kids to restaurants where they are welcome, not tolerated.

[Heather]

Because if they tried to do anything about it, parents would exhibit this sentiment:

Ahhhhh yes. The same ones that would be screaming to sue if their kid got hot pizza spilled on him.

But you only get to say that if you actually make an attempt to reign them in, IMO. I do not understand why anyone lets their kid get down from the table, especially in a crowded restaurant with piping hot pizzas being carried around.

[hm212]

Maybe I am being harsh. Just not into the "no kidz allowed" thing, especially at pretentious pizza joints.

(It always reminds me of this unpleasant chick on eGullet who not only refused to be friends with anyone who had children, or go to restaurants where they were welcome, but actually got ill if a child even touched her. It must be a barrel of laughs going anywhere with her.)

It is no secret that I take my kids to all kinds of restaurants and they behave. I know for a fact that the children of parents on this board behave very well in restaurants. (No, I would never take my girls to Maestro for a four hour dinner starting at 9pm but that is the point we do go to kid friendly places and they behave appropriately).

In my humble opinion, many of the kids behave better than some of the adults out there. If they are having a no kids room maybe they should have a no jerks room.

[porcupine]

Recently I was reminded of an experience from 14 years ago. I'd love to hear from the industry professionals about this one, since I've never encountered it since.

A friend and I were driving across the US. At the end of day one we stopped at a cheap hotel near St Louis; friend went to bed almost immediately, but I needed to unwind so went to the small restaurant next door. It was 9pm, and as I walked in, a party of four was just being seated. About ten minutes after being handed the menu, I finally got the waiter's attention and tried to order a small bowl of soup. He claimed he couldn't take my order yet because the party of four hadn't ordered yet. I tried to explain that all I wanted was a glass of water and a bowl of soup, and they hadn't even opened their menus yet, but he wouldn't hear it. It would be unfair, he explained, if I ordered the last of a dish and one of them chose the same thing. I pointed out the absurdity of making me wait while they chatted on, without being close to ready to order. He won, of course, and I was feeling like Jack Nicholson in Five Easy Pieces, but I wonder if this practice is at all common, if conducted with more finesse.

[blakegwinn]

Recently I was reminded of an experience from 14 years ago. I'd love to hear from the industry professionals about this one, since I've never encountered it since.

A friend and I were driving across the US. At the end of day one we stopped at a cheap hotel near St Louis; friend went to bed almost immediately, but I needed to unwind so went to the small restaurant next door. It was 9pm, and as I walked in, a party of four was just being seated. About ten minutes after being handed the menu, I finally got the waiter's attention and tried to order a small bowl of soup. He claimed he couldn't take my order yet because the party of four hadn't ordered yet. I tried to explain that all I wanted was a glass of water and a bowl of soup, and they hadn't even opened their menus yet, but he wouldn't hear it. It would be unfair, he explained, if I ordered the last of a dish and one of them chose the same thing. I pointed out the absurdity of making me wait while they chatted on, without being close to ready to order. He won, of course, and I was feeling like Jack Nicholson in Five Easy Pieces, but I wonder if this practice is at all common, if conducted with more finesse.

Gotta say I have never heard of anything like that. Nobody I have ever known does that or anything resembling that. You might have been getting "punished" by a waiter who wanted to go home for coming in late and taking away a table and a half hour of time for soup and water. Can't say I would do it but I could see it being the case maybe.

Also on the kids thing, all of you parents can stop telling us all how "well-behaved" your kids all are. Everyone mentions it over and over when a discussion about kids come up but to me this is just like a discussion about a "bad" neighborhood or about what constitutes good and evil. Well-behaved is a very relative term and completely dependent on your individual view of what good behavior is. I would say 99 percent of parents would describe their kids as well-behaved. If they saw a problem with the kids' behavior they would have done something about it.

Usually these comments are used as a counterpoint to people expressing annoyance at kids in restaurants but it is just as judgemental and "holier-than-thou" as the points of view they are arguing against. Going on about how well-behaved your kids are implies that there are other peoples kids who are not and that your kids behave the "right way". I really don't believe in one universal "right way". Everyone has their own experiences and upbringing that shapes their ideas of socially acceptable practices. You aren't going to change other people's nor should you really. That implies that you and your kids hold some kind of monopoly on proper etiquette.

I am not anti-kids in restaurants and don't want anyone to think that is what I mean by this. I think everyone has their own views of what acceptable behavior is and I realize I am never going to be able to change the way someone else's kids behave or view (my version of) good manners much less everyone else that comes into restaurants. Waiting tables I have seen so many people let their good time be ruined by obsessing over some other parties behavior. My advice to both the people railing on kids in general or just other people's kids, just lighten up, enjoy yourself and try not to let the differences in your version of good manners and someone elses get to you. And if it is so bad somewhere that you absolutely cannot ignore it anymore, just choose a different restaurant.

[DanielK]

...all of you parents can stop telling us all how "well-behaved" your kids all are.. Well-behaved is a very relative term and completely dependent on your individual view of what good behavior is. I would say 99 percent of parents would describe their kids as well-behaved. If they saw a problem with the kids' behavior they would have done something about it.

What I mean when I say this is that my children are not permitted to run around the restaurant, play in the aisles, throw food or crayons, yell loudly, or otherwise bother other patrons.

99% of parents may say that their children don't do this, but my experience is that probably half of them do.

[blakegwinn]

Just to qualify my earlier post after reading some more discussion on kids in the Colorado kitchen string, I think an owner or manager of a restaurant does have every right to project their feelings on etiquette to other people. It is their place, their four walls, their customers, their food and their tables and chairs. They can require people to behave anyway they please while in their "home".

And Daniel what I was trying to say about the 99 percent is not that people lie about what their kids do but just that they might not view the same actions as bad behavior as you or a strong majority of other customers might. To some parents throwing food on the floor is just kids being kids and nothing to be alarmed about or corrected. Running around the restaurant is just normal energy release for a 4 year old. My point is that usually if you were to ask the mother of the kids who are currently throwing chicken nuggets at each other if her kids were well behaved she would say yes, and wouldn't be lying.

[rkduggins]

I just read Gillian Clark's post in the Colorado Kitchen thread, but my remarks are primarily on children in restaurants, so I'll post them here. My beef is with the parents *not* the children who behave badly. Children will act how they are taught to act. If they are allowed to be rude at home and in public, how is it any different once they get to a resaurant? I agree with BlakeG that most parents perceive their children as well behaved, but that is a subjective view. I have been in restaurants where children have thrown drinking glasses on the floor whilst screaming, children running around the table and trying to take food from diner's plates, throwing food in a parent's face (usually the mother) and being disrespectful in general with no sanctions placed upon them. But, they are CHILDREN. Learning self control and boundaries is part of what helps them become effective adults. It is a disservice to THEM to be taught that being difficult, demanding and disrespectful of others is the right way to go through life.

Though I realize that there are those who would argue that in a service industry, the guest is of paramount importance and should be kowtowed to to the Nth degree, everyone deserves respect. Restaurant owners who make their expectations clear to their patrons, in my view, are going the right way. If a patron knows what's expected, they can choose to continue the experience, or seek another. I like that so many parents here are saying that they expect their children to sit at the table, hold conversations and be respectful of those near them. I think that parents who value a good dining, theatre, grocery store or shopping mall experience will definitely not be the ones to complain about.

[vinist]

I'll admit I can certainly get annoyed with loud/rowdy kids in any setting, particularly restaurants where I want to enjoy a relaxing meal. But for the most part, I like having kids around! They're fun!

It kind of strikes me as odd that there's so much frustation with kids anywhere, as if parents are supposed to keep them locked up at home or take them only to "kid-friendly" restaurants where the food often isn't going to be very good.

In a larger sense, I often feel like we Americans segregate "adult" and "family" activities too much; to me it seems we are a decidedly unfriendly society toward families and children. In other countries I haven't seen restaurants that "weren't for kids"; when parents went out to eat their children came along. Kids in Spain, for example, seem to be considered part of the society and are taken just about anywhere with their parents.

I for one (and keep in mind I'm nowhere near being a parent) would want my kids to have exposure to interesting food as early and often as possible, and if that meant their presence might bother the occasional patron, so be it. What's the alternative for parents who want their kids to eat well?

I'm happy to see a bunch of kids running around at 2 Amys. They're going to grow up knowing what good pizza is! Better than having the babysitter order Papa John's while the parents are out eating real food.

[Waitman]

Is it just me? Or because I live in the city? Or, maybe, the luck of the Irish? Because I've been dining out hereabouts for 25 years and worked in the business a few years and I'm having a hard time remembering a meal where an unruly child (save my own) seriously affected a dining experience. Incompetent, snotty or surly waiters; shitty food; obnoxious music being played way too loud; blowhards on cellphones and pompous "loud talkers" holding forth three tables away; drunks; bugs and vermin....but kids, not so much.

I'm sure there are many horrid little monsters out there but, in my experience, it's just not that much of a problem. Finding competent waitstaff...that's a problem.

One night I was having dinner at Sushi-Ko and some baby started whailing away, which was annoying, but within seconds the little monster was whisked out of earshot by a mortified parent. The, to fill the silence, some know-it-all at the next table began to lecture his unfortunate dining compaion on finance, child-rearing and god-knows-what in a voice that carried throughout the restaurant adding a significant fingernails-on-blackboard feeling to an otherwise excellent meal. The kid was a problem for a minute; the blowhard, for an hour. I'll take my chances with the kid.

And PS -- outside the top dining rooms, I say, let's not get too anal-retentive about the kids, even if they aren't being "perfect." Screaming and throwing food: no. A circuitous route to the bathroom when they get restless and the occasional peal of childish laughter: fine. Sometimes of a Saturday I'll end up at Viet Royale, and there are always huge families camped out having big meal, and not irregularly the kids will ramble around the table to talk to one another and giggle, or even pull up a little corner of the floor next to mom's chair to to something and no one minds, least of all me. In fact, I think kids lend a restaurant a little good Feng Shui.

[lackadaisi]

A couple of weeks ago, I saw some of the most unruly children ever in a downtown dining room. They alternated between climbing ON TOP OF their own table, trying to pull down the wall decorations, running laps between the unused tables, climbing into the unused boothes, moving glasses at all the tables, and screaming. The parents did not seem to notice at all. So odd.

They were way across the room, so it didn't really bother our party specifically, but was very captivating to watch. Each time we thought they could do no worse, they did. Our show concluded with the parents dropping their credit card under the table and forcing the waiter to crawl around under the table to search for it. We felt quite bad for the older gentleman.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

A couple of weeks ago, I saw some of the most unruly children ever in a downtown dining room. They alternated between climbing ON TOP OF their own table, trying to pull down the wall decorations, running laps between the unused tables, climbing into the unused boothes, moving glasses at all the tables, and screaming. The parents did not seem to notice at all. So odd.

One of my favorite movie quotes:

"My apologies, ma'am. Slight negligence in his upbringing."

John Wayne, apologizing for the behavior of his teenage son in some western or other.

[Heather]

Also on the kids thing, all of you parents can stop telling us all how "well-behaved" your kids all are. Everyone mentions it over and over when a discussion about kids come up but to me this is just like a discussion about a "bad" neighborhood or about what constitutes good and evil. Well-behaved is a very relative term and completely dependent on your individual view of what good behavior is. I would say 99 percent of parents would describe their kids as well-behaved. If they saw a problem with the kids' behavior they would have done something about it.

No, see, I don't believe that at all. Saying that "everyone has different standards of good behaviour" is exactly why kids in restaurants is an issue and why we are having this conversation. Think back on your own upbringing. I would have been backhanded clear into next week for throwing food at home, never mind in a restaurant. It was NOT DONE. And most people were raised to know what was NOT DONE, even in the super permissive, downfall of all that is holy and civilized, 1970s.

And PS -- outside the top dining rooms, I say, let's not get too anal-retentive about the kids, even if they aren't being "perfect." Screaming and throwing food: no. A circuitous route to the bathroom when they get restless and the occasional peal of childish laughter: fine.

How does everyone feel about reading or coloring at the table in a restaurant? I say a little quiet entertainment is fine during a long meal; Gillian Clark feels differently. I am interested in whether anyone else has a problem with it. The other option would be never taking my developmentally delayed, hyperactive four-year-old out dinner, and that is not an option IMHO.

[Ilaine]

Also on the kids thing, all of you parents can stop telling us all how "well-behaved" your kids all are.

Ha! My kids were brats. Still can be, even though they're adults, but especially so when they were little.

As a consequence, we never took them to "nice" restaurants, the kind of restaurant where people go to celebrate, but they did eat out a lot at more casual restaurants, and at least we kept them in their chairs.

Here's how: I carried a bag stuffed with coloring books, crayons, toys, and little snacks, and kept them busy and occupied, we usually fed them their dinner before we left home, and we never ordered anything that took a long time to prepare.

If you inform the waiter that you want to get in and out before the kids start acting up, they can usually tell you whether a dish takes a long time to cook or not. Example, fried chicken cooked to order takes forever, so forget about it.

Also, if you order for the children, you can ask the waiter to bring it out as soon as it is done, and they usually accommodate. French fries are usually a big hit.

Most human beings are reasonable if you only give them a chance.

Last resort, if they will not behave, take them outside. It's not fair to the rest of the customers, and it's not really fair to the children if it's nap time or they're just too full of energy to control themselves. Get the food to go.

[monavano]

I think bringing quiet kid activities to a restaurant is good if it's productive for them, and not bothering anything or anyone else. Crayons, a coloring book or a "Highlights" book, simple puzzles ares great way to occupy kids while the adults linger and chat. Dining out usually lasts longer than a family meal at the table, and kids get bored. It's not a cop out to let them amuse themselves quietly and no one should feel dissappointed in themselves as a parent, nor in thier children if you need a little help to get them through a meal out.

[Heather]

No, see, I don't believe that at all. Saying that "everyone has different standards of good behaviour" is exactly why kids in restaurants is an issue and why we are having this conversation. Think back on your own upbringing. I would have been backhanded clear into next week for throwing food at home, never mind in a restaurant. It was NOT DONE. And most people were raised to know what was NOT DONE, even in the super permissive, downfall of all that is holy and civilized, 1970s.

And I would note that back then, a restaurant owner wouldn't have to tell anyone how their children should behave.

[Ilaine]

How does everyone feel about reading or coloring at the table in a restaurant? I say a little quiet entertainment is fine during a long meal; Gillian Clark feels differently. I am interested in whether anyone else has a problem with it. The other option would be never taking my developmentally delayed, hyperactive four-year-old out dinner, and that is not an option IMHO.

Does she have a problem if you bring your own crayons and coloring books?

Oh, well, it's probably the case that if a child can't behave without being occupied with things the child finds interesting, and sitting at a table in a restaurant interacting with the family is not one of the things the child finds interesting, then perhaps the child is too young for some restaurants. Some places are "child friendly", some are not.

I admit to spending more time than, in retrospect, seems believable, in McDonald's and Burger King and so forth, simply because they have ones in the suburbs with playgrounds, especially indoor playgrounds with those tubes that look like hamster habitats, and slides, and ball pits. Kids love those. I'd bring a book.

It was sort of a tradeoff. Sometimes we'd eat where the adults wanted to eat, sometimes where the kids wanted to eat.

[DanielK]

Also, if you order for the children, you can ask the waiter to bring it out as soon as it is done, and they usually accommodate. French fries are usually a big hit.

I find this worse, not better. If they wait for their food as I am, then we can have a conversation, work together on their activities, etc. If they eat before I get my food, then they start to get antsy just as I want to pay attention to my meal, not entertain my children.

[hm212]

I find this worse, not better. If they wait for their food as I am, then we can have a conversation, work together on their activities, etc. If they eat before I get my food, then they start to get antsy just as I want to pay attention to my meal, not entertain my children.

Dan is right on. I would NEVER want my kids entrees to come out first. We can order a starter or ask for some extra bread if they (or me) is very hungry.

Just as an aside. We keep our kids under such scrutiny when we are out because of the conotation of kids in a nice restaurant. When I took my daughter (7) to RTC last week, I was so concerned with her not spilling or anything (you know being human) and what do I do as soon as I get my coffee. I was the one who spilled my coffee all over the table (At least it was only the coffee and not the chocolate mousse).