Etiquette, The Two-Way Street

[TSE]

But once "irregardless" is in the dictionary, then yeah, that pretty much means people can use it. Evolution of language.

Ah, but to accept blindly the decrees of some pointy-headed, ivory tower-dwelling dictionary editor as diktat is nothing less than an invitation to a linguistic Dolchstoß that will detroy us from within. Squalor, decay, and ruin are the only possible outcomes.

But yeah, I'm really just being a nit-picky jerk, and if the server does their job well, s/he is welcome to call my table yinz for all I care. Still though, irregardless...ick.

[blakegwinn]

What I as a service industry worker find so disturbing in these discussions is the underlying but still blatant assumption that the offending party simply does not know his place. Nor his grammar, nor his usage.

Might I suggest, from our positions of wealth, privilege and ridiculous over-abundance in the face of so much want and hardship, that we find other matters from which to take offense while we enjoy such unimaginable plenty.

Hear hear. I am an unbeliveably easy going guy and one of the only thing that still burns me is people getting talked down to. I know that this OFTEN goes from server to customer (especially in nicer restaurants where wine and food knowledge are a bit more important) but the restaurant I am at now is a very casual atmosphere in an extremely affluent neighborhood so it is almost exclusively customer on server. We get so many customers who treat waiters like "the help". Get over yourself. I work a full time analyst job in the day which requires a college degree and it is 30 times easier than my evening job waiting tables. I get entry level wages at my day job and if I think I am overpaid at one of my jobs it is the one I do during the day. I sit in an airconditioned office in a comfortable chair all day. At night I am on my feet all night running through hot kitchens, burning my hands on hot plates and getting talked down to like I am an idiot or failure because I am waiting on you. It dissappoints me that we still have so many people in such an educated and normally classy and polite city who treat servers like they are beneath them. Some people always assume that waiters are some uneducated losers who must have failed in life at some point to end up cleaning dirty plates off your table. At my restaurant we have 2 people working on phd's right now, 3 on masters degrees and a handful of college students. 4-5 of us have full time office jobs but just need extra money to be able to afford an apartment in this ridiculous market. Don't get me wrong, I think full time food service is a completely respectable career I am just trying to point out that you can't assume things about someone because they are cleaning the plates off your table. Most customers are great and the ones that aren't I have seen enough of them that this kind of thing doesn't bother me anymore. It's when I see people talking to my more sensitive friends like they are ingrates that sets me off. And yes Michael, what a fantastic place we live in were restaurant etiquette is a major topic of discussion. I can't help but think there are service staff/cooks/diners that are probably just happy that their restaurant isn't a pile of rubble when they show up for dinner. And thanks for the welcome you other guys. I promise after post 20 the length will drop by 50-60 percent as I get all these diatribes that have been pent up for years out of my head.

[ScotteeM]

pretending I'm Rocks here

[blake, dude, could you please put a couple of paragraph breaks in your posts, they're hard to read]

Wow, Joe, you fooled me for a moment!

Blake, let me add my belated welcome, and thank you for such thoughtful posts.

Feel free to tell us a little bit more about yourself, like where you work at night. Most members here who are "in the business" put their affiliation in their signature, and although this is encouraged, I don't think it's really required, unless you are blatantly promoting the place. I myself am happy to remain solely a consumer.

[Gillian Clark]

The irony is that if they hadn't ben so intent on yelling at me and calling me a liar, they would have had their table in 10 or 15 minutes.

I know many of you will find this hard to believe but I have also had customers come to my window at Colorado Kitchen and cuss me out. From a whole host of incidents. One man--in his late 50's or so called me a bleeping ridiculous excuse for a chef because I had run out of meatloaf at 9:30 on a Friday night. A woman gathered the 4 children in her party in the center of my dining room and they all held hands and began a rousing game of Ring Around the Rosie--it was 7pm on a Saturday. When I asked her twice not to do that, she said..."How dare you?" and some things I cant repeat. I have another semi regular customer who apparently has told everyone she has quit smoking. So she sneaks into my bathroom and lights up. Of course i know her and watch when she comes in. I confront her recently--my ladies room is again smoke billowing from the closed door--and am basically shouted down by this table of senior citizens that are convinced she has really quit. I tell you Dino...its hard out here for a chef.

[Banco]

A woman gathered the 4 children in her party in the center of my dining room and they all held hands and began a rousing game of Ring Around the Rosie--it was 7pm on a Saturday.

That is just soooo fucked up.

[Gillian Clark]

That is just soooo fucked up.

My daughter came in form band practice as they were leaving heard the woman saying, "I thought this place was kid friendly. It is soo not."

[Meaghan]

Don't be sad!

[blakegwinn]

My daughter came in form band practice as they were leaving heard the woman saying, "I thought this place was kid friendly. It is soo not."

So I guess I should call off the kickball game I had planned for Sunday brunch in CO Kitchen? The kids will be so disppointed. There's iust nothing like a 7th inning stretch round of donuts.

[hm212]

It is all about reading the customers mind.

A good wait person can usually read the table with some accuracy.

When I take my kids to dinner. I want the check quickly and efficiently, Don't worry about rushing me out.

If we are trying to make a show, yes rush me out.

When I am out with friends and we are having a relaxing dinner I am in no rush, I would probably like to linger over coffee.

I am sure you could tell the difference. The problem is the college student with no real experience cannot. When I have someone waiting on me with obviously little experience, I tend to tell them what I need. The problem comes up when they just disappear.

[chuchelo]

Just back from a month in France and still catching up. I really enjoyed reading this discussion. We just had dinner out to celebrate our wedding anniversary. I won't name the restaurant (unless you press me -- it was French ) because this sort of thing happens everywhere. I will say, with this discussion in mind, I made sure we were right on time for our reservation! We aren't normally late, I just wanted to be certain.

Now for the service.

1. If I ask for help with the wine list, it's because I want your expert assistance. I'll acknowledge when it's a stretch to find the right wine (in this case, I had calf's liver, he was having trout) but I expect to be able to rely on your knowledge. Just saying "you can't have red wine with fish" is not helpful.

2. If I order calf's liver and you bring me cowfish, please ask whether or not we would like you to take back the other entree so that we can celebrate our anniversary (about which you knew) by eating our meal at the same time. In this case, I knew my husband was hungry so I told him to go ahead and eat.

3. If you do mess up a bit, please apologize. I'm not going to sue you if you admit fault.

4. If you point at my plate and ask me if I'm "done with that" please ask before removing my bread plate as well. I really wanted those last few bites as I finished my glass of wine. Bummer.

If I'm wrong on any of the above, please share your views. I'm here to learn.

[Pool Boy]

A minor peeve of mine has to do with when I order an iced tea. Now, typically, this is for lunch, but, on some occasions, I order it with dinner. Like tonight.

Anyway, iced teas usually is served with a single wedge of lemon. I prefer to have an extra wedge or two with mine and I do use them. So, when I order it, I specifically say 'Iced tea with extra lemon', often I even make a motion that indicates several rimming a glass. Well, almost always, I get iced tea with a single wedge. Oh well.

But, perhaps even more bothersome, is when I get a refill of the glass. 98% of the time, I get extra tea poured in the same glass and they bring no extra lemon wedge. Argh! Why?

Anyway, when my request for extra wedges of lemon get answered, and particularly when I get extra wedges with a refill (or with a fresh glass of it), I definitely notice and appreciate it. I usually tip at 18-20% and I'll kick in an extra 5 or even 10% just for that....a few extra wedges of lemon.

[Ferhat Yalcin]

Just saying "you can't have red wine with fish" is not helpful.

are these the same people serving a red wine and calling it `this is a red chardonnay` ?

you definitely can have red wine with fish. just make sure it is not a red zinfandel

[dinwiddie]

TJ, I'm just the opposite about iced tea, I don't want any lemon. In fact I tend to order iced tea by saying "no lemon, no straw, no spoon, just ice and tea." But at least 50% of the time they still bring it with lemon. So what do with that lemon wedge? Usually I can give it to my wife to put in her water, but if I'm alone, I don't like having to find a place to put it on the table.

[Seeker]

A minor peeve of mine has to do with when I order an iced tea . . . But, perhaps even more bothersome, is when I get a refill of the glass. 98% of the time, I get extra tea poured in the same glass and they bring no extra lemon wedge. Argh! Why?

I am similarly clueless about what do to when a well-meaning server dilutes my beverage by adding more. Just because it's free doesn't mean I want more because there's room to top off my glass. I like to finish what I have first, as it is just the way I like it (lemon, cream, sweetener, or whatever), and then get more.

Any suggestions??

[ScotteeM]

4. If you point at my plate and ask me if I'm "done with that" please ask before removing my bread plate as well. I really wanted those last few bites as I finished my glass of wine. Bummer.

And if one person is finished and says you may clear his plate, please don't take the butter and bread away while the other person at the table is still eating!

OK, so it was just the butter, and my husband's bread plate that went with his empty entree plate, because he grabbed the bread basket before the industrious busser reached for it. If I had not been looking elsewhere when this happened, I would have stopped her from taking those things, but once it was done, it was too late.

[Escoffier]

I am similarly clueless about what do to when a well-meaning server dilutes my beverage by adding more. Just because it's free doesn't mean I want more because there's room to top off my glass. I like to finish what I have first, as it is just the way I like it (lemon, cream, sweetener, or whatever), and then get more.

Any suggestions??

Easiest thing in the world. Simply say "Thank you, I'm not finished yet but I will let you know when I'd like some more". Not too difficult.

[Chocolaterie Wanders]

Is that not an interesting thing about just ice tea and lemon. My recommondation is to always let the server know with clear, short and distinct voice, friendly of course. If I have a drink, be it water or tea or coffee - I usually do not want any refill, out of the same reason mentioned above. If I see the server approaching I put my hand above the cup/glass and smile at the server and say: Thnak you.

Well, this doesn't always work and sometimes it can be dangerous (-> hot coffee)

I had to get used to this, because in Germany there is nothing like a 'free' refill anywhere (this is pre-year 2000), so the problem does not occur.

We usually enjoy the dinner and the service, no matter how crazy it is sometimes. The only I get annoyed by a misbehaviour of servers is, if it is a special occasion or a very good restaurant, where something like this is really not the right place.

Since we are mostly mild in character and know both sides (Melanie is a chef and I waited many times in my parents pastry shop) we can overlook little mistakes by the servers, especially when they are inexperienced, we are very forgiving.

And then there is the aspect that in other countries you do not get that exclusive threatment, that you get here. In Cologne, Germany for example it is 'fashion' that you get threated bad (or not as good) as a customer in a bar/restaurant. I find it kinda weird, but if you know what to expect it can be amusing. Don't be surprised if the waittress says: "If you want to know what we have to offer, look at the menu"

I do believe in the saying: "The customer is always right", but at the same time you cannot take everything with sunken head. The working force in a restaurant is not there to be taken out on all the problems that one might have.

Once again ... communication is everything.

[reverbbrad]

I am similarly clueless about what do to when a well-meaning server dilutes my beverage by adding more. Just because it's free doesn't mean I want more because there's room to top off my glass. I like to finish what I have first, as it is just the way I like it (lemon, cream, sweetener, or whatever), and then get more.

Any suggestions??

I find that if I ask politely for a fresh glass, it usually works out quite well. I don't suspect it is a very uncommon or demanding request, particularly if your drink has run out of ice or uses lemon, or sugar, or whatever.

It is asking a slight bit more work from the server, so think well of them at tip time.

[Scooter]

TJ, I'm just the opposite about iced tea, I don't want any lemon. In fact I tend to order iced tea by saying "no lemon, no straw, no spoon, just ice and tea." But at least 50% of the time they still bring it with lemon. So what do with that lemon wedge? Usually I can give it to my wife to put in her water, but if I'm alone, I don't like having to find a place to put it on the table.

you poor thing, finding a place for that lemon, must be hard.

[Escoffier]

TJ, I'm just the opposite about iced tea, I don't want any lemon. In fact I tend to order iced tea by saying "no lemon, no straw, no spoon, just ice and tea." But at least 50% of the time they still bring it with lemon. So what do with that lemon wedge? Usually I can give it to my wife to put in her water, but if I'm alone, I don't like having to find a place to put it on the table.

Oh, let's see...play tabletop football with it...put it on the bread plate....flick it at a neighboring table...throw it at the server...hide it under the table...put it on the chair at the next table...or simply ask the server to take it...I don't understand the hesitation in asking. Unless you have a lemon allergy, I think you could simply ask if they would take it away and hand it to the server...I doubt this would cause an Emily Post disaster drill...

[deangold]

There are many ways to do things in the restaurant business. all are wrong except one way... the way you the customer wants it. If you have a preference, please speak up. Some want the lemon and some don't. SOme want refils and some don't. Some want the plates cleared as each diner is finished and some don't. The problem started when there were rigid rules for dining (including what to wear depending on the hour the meal began). When these rules become relaxed, the choices of service multiply to a point where there are now no hard and fast rules. Have a pity on the server and let them know what you are looking for. We want to give it to you.

[chuchelo]

So, any takers on whether or not the entree of one diner should be sent back/kept warm if the server brings the wrong meal for the other diner? I'm just speaking of a table for two.

[Escoffier]

So, any takers on whether or not the entree of one diner should be sent back/kept warm if the server brings the wrong meal for the other diner? I'm just speaking of a table for two.

If it's something that won't overcook, dry out, change taste, or become just slightly inedible, courtesy says you should send it back and wait for the second meal to arrive. Common sense says that most times, if it's sent back it won't be as good as it was originally. (Ever have overcooked steak, leathery eggs, mashed potatoes that taste like library paste because they've been sitting in a warming oven or under a heat lamp?)

[B.A.R.]

So, any takers on whether or not the entree of one diner should be sent back/kept warm if the server brings the wrong meal for the other diner? I'm just speaking of a table for two.

1)In an average restaurant, the one entree will sit on the table while the other is prepared.

2)In a good restaurant, one entree will dry out under a heat lamp while the other is hastily prepared.

3)In great restaurants, both entrees will be remade.

Generally speaking, you are unlikely to find many restaurants that even know #3 is the proper recourse.

Now, where should I put that lemon?..........

[chuchelo]

1)In an average restaurant, the one entree will sit on the table while the other is prepared.

So, you confirmed what I thought. We were eating in an average restaurant which happens to be an Editor's Pick for the Washington Post and one of the top 100 restaurants for Washingtonian. (3 stars!)

At least the food was good!

[starfish]

1)In an average restaurant, the one entree will sit on the table while the other is prepared.

2)In a good restaurant, one entree will dry out under a heat lamp while the other is hastily prepared.

3)In great restaurants, both entrees will be remade.

Generally speaking, you are unlikely to find many restaurants that even know #3 is the proper recourse.

Now, where should I put that lemon?..........

option 2.5: remove offending entree, have the kitchen produce a small salad so that neither party is forced to eat by themselves. canabalize another table's order (more than one table ordered the "blank") and let the kitchen catch-up. minimal impact to the guest, minimal additional cost to the restaurant.

[Pat]

option 2.5: remove offending entree, have the kitchen produce a small salad so that neither party is forced to eat by themselves. canabalize another table's order (more than one table ordered the "blank") and let the kitchen catch-up. minimal impact to the guest, minimal additional cost to the restaurant.

This is what the folks at Firefly did when we had this happen a year or so ago. (I don't know if they cannibalized another table's order, though.) It was handled very smoothly, and they also brought us a complimentary dessert.

[Eric Reid]

So, a friend of mine in the industry sent me this email this morning, I thought it was pretty funny. Enjoy

1. If you owe someone money, always pay them back in a bar. Preferably during happy hour.

2. Always toast before doing a shot.

3. Whoever buys the shot gets the first chance to offer a toast.

4. Change your toast at least once a month.

5. Buying someone a drink is five times better than a handshake.

6. Buying a strange woman a drink is still cool. Buying all her drinks is dumb.

7. Never borrow more than one cigarette from the same person in one night.

8. When the bartender is slammed, resist the powerful urge to order a slightly-dirty, very-dry, in-and-out, super-chilled half-and-half martini with a lemon twist. Limit orders to beer, straight shots and two-part cocktails.

9. Get the bartender's attention with eye contact and a smile.

10. Do not make eye contact with the bartender if you do not want a drink.

11. Unacceptable things to say after doing a shot: Great, now I'm going to get drunk. I hate shots. It's coming back up.

12. Never, ever tell a bartender he made your drink too strong.

13. If he makes it too weak, order a double next time. He'll get the message.

14. If you offer to buy a woman a drink and she refuses, she does not like you.

15. If you offer to buy a woman a drink and she accepts, she still might not like you.

16. If she buys you a drink, she likes you.

17. If someone offers to buy you a drink, do not upgrade your liquor preference.

18. Always have a corkscrew in your house.

19. If you don't have a corkscrew, push the cork down into the bottle with a pen.

20. Drink one girly drink in public and you will forever be known as the guy who drinks girly drinks.

21. Our parents were better drinkers than we are.

22. Never talk to someone in the restroom unless you're doing the same thing :urinating, waiting in line or washing your hands.

23. Girls hang out, apply make-up, and have long talks in the bathroom. Men do not.

24. After your sixth drink, do not look at yourself in the mirror. It will shake your confidence.

25. It is only permissible to shout 'woo-hoo!' if you are doing a shot with four or more people.

26. If there is a d.j., you can request a song only once per night. If he doesn't play it within half an hour, do not approach him again. If he does play it, do not approach him again.

27. Learn how to make a rose out of a bar napkin. You'll be surprised how well it works.

28. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to drink in a bar. Go to the liquor store.

29. If you owe someone twenty dollars or less, you may pay them back in beer.

30. Never complain about the quality or brand of a free drink.

31. If you have been roommates with someone more than six months, you may drink all their beer, even if it's hidden, as long as you leave them one.

32. You can have a shot of their hard liquor only if the cap has been cracked and the bottle goes for less than $25.

33. The only thing that tastes better than free liquor is stolen liquor.

34. If you bring Old Milwaukee to a party, you must drink at least two cans before you start drinking the imported beer in the fridge.

35. Learn to appreciate hangovers. If it was all good times every jackass would be doing it.

36. If you ever feel depressed, get out a bartender's guide and browsethrough all the drinks you've never tried.

37. Try one new drink each week.

38. If you are the bar's sole customer, you are obliged to make small talk with the bartender until he stops acknowledging you. Then you're off the hook. The same goes for him.

39. Never tip with coins that have touched you. If your change is $1.50, you can tell the barmaid to keep the change, but once she has handed it to you, you cannot give it back. To a bartender or cocktail waitress, small change has no value.

40. If you have ever told a bartender, "Hey, it all spends the same," then you are a cheap ass.

41. Anyone on stage or behind a bar is fifty percent better looking.

42. You can tell how hard a drinker someone is by how close they keep their drink to their mouth.

43. A bar is a college, not a nursery. If you spill a beer, clean it up. If you break a glass, wait for a staff member to clean it up, then blame it on someone else.

44. Being drunk is feeling sophisticated without being able to say it.

45. It's okay to drink alone.

46. After three drinks, you will forget a woman's name two seconds after she tells you. The rest of the night you will call her "baby" or "darling".

47. Nothing screams 'nancy boy' louder than swirling an oversized brandy snifter.

48. Men don't drink from straws. Unless you're doing a Mind or Face Eraser.

49. If you do a shot, finish it. If you don't plan to finish it, don't accept it.

50. Never brood in a dance bar. Never dance in a dive bar.

51. Never play more than three songs by the same artist in a row.

52. Your songs will come on as you're leaving the bar.

53. Never yell out jukebox selections to someone you don't know.

54. Never lie in a bar. You may, however, grossly exaggerate and lean.

55. If you think you might be slurring a little, then you are slurring a lot. If you think you are slurring a lot, then you are not speaking English.

56. Screaming,"Someone buy me a drink!" has never worked.

57. For every drink, there is a five percent better chance you will get in a fight. There is also a three percent better chance you will lose the fight.

58. Fighting an extremely drunk person when you are sober is hilarious.

59. If you are broke and a friend is "spoting you", you must laugh at all his jokes and play wingman when he makes his move.

60. If you are broke and a friend is "making sport of you", you may steal any drink he leaves unattended.

61. Never rest your head on a table or bar top. It is the equivalent of voluntarily putting your head on a chopping block.

62. If you are trading rounds with a friend and he asks if you're ready for another, always say yes. Once you fall out of sync you will end up buying more drinks than him.

63. If you're going to hit on a member of the bar staff, make sure you tip well before and after, regardless of her response.

64. The people with the most money are rarely the best tippers.

65. Before you die, single-handedly make one decent martini.

66. Asking a bartender what beers are on tap when the handles are right in front of you is the equivalent of saying, "I'm an idiot."

67. Never ask a bartender "what's good tonight?" They do not fly in the scotch fresh from the coast every morning.

68. If there is a line for drinks, get your goddamn drink and step the hell away from the bar.

69. If there is ever any confusion, the fuller beer is yours.

70. The patrons at your local bar are your extended family, your fathers and mothers, your brothers and sisters. Except you get to sleep with these sisters. And if you're really drunk, the mothers.

71. It's acceptable, traditional in fact, to disappear during a night of hard drinking. You will appear mysterious and your friends will understand. If they even notice.

72. Never argue your tab at the end of the night. Remember, you're hammered and they're sober. It's akin to a precocious five-year-old arguing the super-string theory with a physicist. 99.9% of the time you're wrong and either way you're going to come off as a jackass.

73. If you bring booze to a party, you must drink it or leave it.

74. If you hesitate more than three seconds after the bartender looks at you, you do not deserve a drink.

75. Beer makes you mellow, champagne makes you silly, wine makes you dramatic, tequila makes you felonious.

76. The greatest thing a drunkard can do is buy a round of drinks for a packed bar.

77. Never preface a conversation with a bartender with "I know this is going to be a hassle, but . . ."

78. When you're in a bar and drunk, your boss is just another guy begging for a fat lip. Unless he's buying.

79. If you are 86'd, do not return for at least three months. To come back sooner makes it appear no other bar wants you.

80. Anyone with three or more drinks in his hands has the right of way.

81. If you're going to drink on the job, drink vodka. It's the no-tell liquor.

82. There's nothing wrong with drinking before noon. Especially if you're supposed to be at work.

83. The bar clock moves twice as fast from midnight to last call.

84. A flask engraved with a personal message is one of the best gifts you can ever give. And make sure there's something in it.

85. On the intimacy scale, sharing a quiet drink is between a handshake and a kiss.

86. You will forget every one of these rules by your fifth drink.

[TedE]

So, a friend of mine in the industry sent me this email this morning, I thought it was pretty funny. Enjoy

1. If you owe someone money, always pay them back in a bar. Preferably during happy hour.

.....

86. You will forget every one of these rules by your fifth drink.

I immediately recognized that wonderful list from the good foks at Modern Drunkard magazine. It is a fantastic website, but be prepared to waste a few hours. Well worth it.

[sophie75]

I wait tables two nights a week, in addition to my FT position for an investments firm. I am amazed at how terribly servers are treated by many of the well-to-do patrons my restaurant receives. Please and Thank You are seldom used and, to me, have become cherished as something beautiful and rare.

I had a table last week of four 50-somethings. They did not acknowledge me as I said hello and filled their waters, they did not acknowledge me as I read the specials, they did not acknowledge me as I brought their complimentary bread...then their entrees...filled their drinks...etc. You get the picture. It had gotten to the point where I was saying to my colleagues, "I would be willing to give up the tip for JUST ONE THANK YOU...or, at least, a nod of their head. Something to acknowledge my presence. I feel like I'm their dog."

When they SILENTLY gave me their credit card to run, I smiled, thanked them and took it to the front. And noticed that the card was issued by the same financial firm with whom I'm employed. When I brought the slip to the table, I told them this. And noticed a palpable change in their attitudes. All of a sudden, I'd grown a white collar and was deemed suitable for engagement. Every person at the table smiled warmly and thanked me profusely as I left the checkbook on the table and walked away. When I returned to see if they wanted coffee refills, one pointed at each of his dining companions to check their status, before thankfully declining. It was an obvious difference in their treatment of me, and I was horrified.

I'm not a perfect server, but I am a good one. Mainly because I care. But the attitudes I've encountered over the years have begun to break me down, bit by bit. Someone who interrupts my greeting with their drink order may not get the same level of service as the table who smiles at me and ask me how I am doing. I still care about doing a good job and making the customer happy, but I can also relate to those that do this full time, and have taken more abuse for longer periods of time...servers who may no longer give 110% to customers who come across as demanding or unappreciative at the start. For every nice person we encounter, there are two who mistreat us, undertip us, scowl at us, berate us. And it does affect you a bit.

***Oh and, by the way, I blurted out "You Guys" once when greeting a table, was immediately horrified by my slip and apologized profusely. Luckily, they laughed and said they don't mind that greeting whatsover.

[DanCole42]

I have two unrelated tipping questions.

Question the First: I have two friends with horribly bland tastes (plain baked potato versus loaded, no cheese or bacon on the soup, light dressing on the salad, etc.). They are also extremely difficult to please (this steak is too medium rare (?), our bread took too long to come, etc.).

They are also horribly ANTI-confrontational. This means that all their annoying, nitpicky complaints go unheard by the restaurant (even when they ARE legitimate). So despite the management being totally unaware of the problem, they STILL stiff them on the tip.

Oh, they're both really cheap, too. 15% on a good day.

They do, however, take me out to dinner every once in a while in exchange for watching their cat, offering shelter when their apartment floods, etc.

I have, on more than one occassion, left extra tip money because, even with their tip too low for my tastes to BEGIN with, it's unfair for the server to be punished for a problem they weren't even AWARE of that they may not even have caused.

My question is, am I in my rights to do this? Or does the rudeness to my friends outweigh their rudeness to our server?

Question the Second: Alcohol. I've been told that when factoring the tip (20% standard for me), you should NOT include the wine. Is this true?

If there's a sommelier helping you out, how much should they be tipped? 20% of the amount of the wine? And then should you tip the server with the wine factored in? If you are tipping the sommelier for their valuable services, how do you differentiate the tip for the server and the tip for the sommelier?

[porcupine]

Question the Second: Alcohol. I've been told that when factoring the tip (20% standard for me), you should NOT include the wine. Is this true?

Look for the thread "Tipping - On Bottles of Wine" in this forum.

[ustreetguy]

Question the First: Or does the rudeness to my friends outweigh their rudeness to our server?

I think leaving extra money is fine. If your friends question it, just tell them that you usually tip 20% and feel funny leaving less - especially since no one gave the server a chance to correct things.

Question the Second: Alcohol. I've been told that when factoring the tip (20% standard for me), you should NOT include the wine. Is this true?

This topic has been hashed out it this thread.

[Miami Danny]

They do, however, take me out to dinner every once in a while in exchange for watching their cat, offering shelter when their apartment floods, etc.

Might I humbly suggest that you accept their thanks in another manner in order to avoid embarrassing them and yourself (and the server, the manager...,etc.).

[Miami Danny]

SILENTLY

You should be thankful for that! How many lemon slices did they order?

[Barbara]

I had a table last week of four 50-somethings. They did not acknowledge me as I said hello and filled their waters, they did not acknowledge me as I read the specials, they did not acknowledge me as I brought their complimentary bread...then their entrees...filled their drinks...etc. You get the picture. It had gotten to the point where I was saying to my colleagues, "I would be willing to give up the tip for JUST ONE THANK YOU...or, at least, a nod of their head. Something to acknowledge my presence. I feel like I'm their dog."

Your story reminded me of something I read, somewhere, awhile back, written by a Flight Attendant. She was taking care of the First Class compartment and encountered a passenger who wouldn't acknowledge her in any way and wouldn't respond to such questions as "What would you like to drink?" When the plane landed, she noticed the man who met this passenger's plane. When she asked the man if there was something wrong with his wife, he replied, "Oh, she never speaks to the help!"

Another example of someone who needs to be culled from the herd.

[hillvalley]

If you are standing at a crowded bar (of a nice restaurant in Cleveland Park) waiting for your table do not start making out as if you were at a junior high school party in the basement of your best friend's house. And when you are done making out, do not start singing cheesy love songs.

[mame11]

If you are standing at a crowded bar (of a nice restaurant in Cleveland Park) waiting for your table do not start making out as if it was a junior high school party in the basement of your best friend's house. And when you are done making out, do not start singing cheesy love songs.

HYSTERICAL.

When did the lemon in the water thing become obligatory. I, like the poster upthread, do not like lemon not one bit. In my tea or water I prefer it not at all. I hate when restaurants put the lemon in/on the water glass automatically (tea, I understand) because that lemon died for me and I hate to put it on the table.

[Jacques Gastreaux]

Another example of someone who needs to be culled from the herd.

Perhaps some extra chlorine needs to be added to the gene pool.

[DonRocks]

TJ, I'm just the opposite about iced tea, I don't want any lemon. In fact I tend to order iced tea by saying "no lemon, no straw, no spoon, just ice and tea." But at least 50% of the time they still bring it with lemon. So what do with that lemon wedge? Usually I can give it to my wife to put in her water, but if I'm alone, I don't like having to find a place to put it on the table.

For this specific problem, it's best to go ahead and flip the lemon wedge into the tea, and dunk it down good and deep into the glass with your finger. The rationale here is that if you leave the lemon wedge on the rim of the glass, you're basically doing a face plant with each sip, but when it's plunged deep inside, the ice acts as a buffer and renders it fairly neutral on the nose. Left unsqueezed, it will do minimal damage to the taste of the tea until the end of the glass, when the lemon-to-tea ratio will begin to increase; hopefully by then you'll have gotten a refill.

Not a sermon, just a thought,

Rocks.

[Michael Landrum]

If you are standing at a crowded bar (of a nice restaurant in Cleveland Park) waiting for your table do not start making out as if you were at a junior high school party in the basement of your best friend's house. And when you are done making out, do not start singing cheesy love songs.

Sorry. I thought I was being discreet. And for the record, she's going to college in the fall.

[qwertyy]

For this specific problem, it's best to go ahead and flip the lemon wedge into the tea, and dunk it down good and deep into the glass with your finger. The rationale here is that if you leave the lemon wedge on the rim of the glass, you're basically doing a face plant with each sip, but when it's plunged deep inside, the ice acts as a buffer and renders it fairly neutral on the nose. Left unsqueezed, it will do minimal damage to the taste of the tea until the end of the glass, when the lemon-to-tea ratio will begin to increase; hopefully by then you'll have gotten a refill.

Not a sermon, just a thought,

Rocks.

Since it's considered rude to drink with a garnish on your glass, and since I know of a few places that don't wash their lemons (making me really not want them swimming in my drink!), I just put it on the table. Along with the straw. And any other detritus they've decided to foist on me for ordering a simple glass of tap water. Messy, yes. But we live.

[reverbbrad]

I have, on more than one occassion, left extra tip money because, even with their tip too low for my tastes to BEGIN with, it's unfair for the server to be punished for a problem they weren't even AWARE of that they may not even have caused.

My question is, am I in my rights to do this? Or does the rudeness to my friends outweigh their rudeness to our server?

I've been in this situation relatively recently, too.

My approach: if you can be discreet, by all means, add to the tip. If not, suck it up. It's probably not worth creating the drama between you and your friends for a few bucks.

The last time this happened to me, I wasn't able to add tip on the spot. I found myself at the same place a few weeks later, noticed the waitress who had served us, told her the quick story, and gave her the "rest" of the tip. She seemed delighted that anyone would do that.

If this had happened at an expensive restaurant, where the difference was significant, I'd probably make a point to go back afterwords and get a manager that could help me add to the tip.

[deangold]

I have, on more than one occassion, left extra tip money because, even with their tip too low for my tastes to BEGIN with, it's unfair for the server to be punished for a problem they weren't even AWARE of that they may not even have caused.

My question is, am I in my rights to do this? Or does the rudeness to my friends outweigh their rudeness to our server?

I htink you are to be commended to try to solve this type of problem. It arises a lot in the business. We ahve had several approaches tried and they all have their place...

A diner dining with European guests oticed the low tip and she sent a friend in with additional tip money a few days later (our inestimiable Mrs P). The server was very happy.

I have been approached by a diner on his/her way tot he restroom who quickly explained the situation and gave me the tip money discretely away from their friends.

Diners have returned to the restaurant under the pretext of haivng left something behind and made good on the tip while their friends waited none the wiser.

You could give your credit card early in the meal to the host, discretely, and ask that the tip be bumped up to whatever percentage you wished. This one requires more faith on your part.

Call the next day and give a credit card for the additional tip.

[bookluvingbabe]

If you are going to claim to be open for business at X time, have the damn menus available!!!

Jennifer, trying to be patient but knowing darn well that there are places up the street that are actually ready for customers at opening...

[DLB]

I have two unrelated tipping questions.

Question the First: I have two friends with horribly bland tastes (plain baked potato versus loaded, no cheese or bacon on the soup, light dressing on the salad, etc.). They are also extremely difficult to please (this steak is too medium rare (?), our bread took too long to come, etc.).

They are also horribly ANTI-confrontational. This means that all their annoying, nitpicky complaints go unheard by the restaurant (even when they ARE legitimate). So despite the management being totally unaware of the problem, they STILL stiff them on the tip.

Oh, they're both really cheap, too. 15% on a good day.

They do, however, take me out to dinner every once in a while in exchange for watching their cat, offering shelter when their apartment floods, etc.

I have, on more than one occassion, left extra tip money because, even with their tip too low for my tastes to BEGIN with, it's unfair for the server to be punished for a problem they weren't even AWARE of that they may not even have caused.

My question is, am I in my rights to do this? Or does the rudeness to my friends outweigh their rudeness to our server?

Question the Second: Alcohol. I've been told that when factoring the tip (20% standard for me), you should NOT include the wine. Is this true?

If there's a sommelier helping you out, how much should they be tipped? 20% of the amount of the wine? And then should you tip the server with the wine factored in? If you are tipping the sommelier for their valuable services, how do you differentiate the tip for the server and the tip for the sommelier?

Don't go out to eat with these people. My wife and I have stopped inviting people like this to go out with us. I hate when people you know always want to split the check six ways or ask for special request. It really makes for a long night.

[The Hersch]

I feel like I'm their dog.

Gee, if you were my dog you'd get lots of kisses and belly-rubs. Perhaps that would be inappropriate at your restaurant.

[B.A.R.]

In the 10+ years working in the fine dining trenches, I've seen my fair share of the gracious and the grating, the sweet and the sworthy, the urbane and profane. But I'll always remember a certain Table # 40.

I was 23 years old and waiting tables in a very nice restaurant while finishing my studies. I took great pride in the service I provided and was, unquestionably, a fantastic server. I also appeared to be ten years old. Aging gracefully has its advantages, but not when you're 21.

Table #40 were four businessmen-loud, brash, "Masters of the Universe" types. I had seen and dealt with their ilk before, many of my best customers had similar abrasive manners. But these men were different. They were dismissive. They were horribly condescending. They were mean, and they reveled in it.

From the moment I approached the table, they began to openly belittle me. They mocked my youthful appearance and openly questioned my qualifications. This, without ever even asking me a single question about the menu, specials, wine list, etc! I'd dealt with this skepticism before, and always blew people away with my skill level. These gentleman were different, and seemed to take great pleasure in bossing me, their youthful server, around.

The matire d' and my colleagues, noticing the carping and caustic nature of the table, offered to switch off with me. I was to proud to switch, and it was me who had the problem.

Three hours later, they asked for their check. I printed the bill and walked up to Andy, the maitre d'. I whispered in his ear for a few seconds, then approached the table. Their bill was $540.00. Undoubtedly my best 4-top of the evening. The host whistled at me when he was ready to pay, and I retrieved the check holder.

I processed the credit card receipt, tore it from the printer, and laid it on the counter. Next to the TIP column, I drew a big "X" and then entered the total as $540.00. I returned the presenter to the host, thanked the gentlemen for their patronage, and waited outside the room.

The host was obviously surprised when he opened the presenter, and I watched as he looked through the bill, line by line. Confused, he got up and approached Andy, who had just finished talking to another table in the room.

"I'm sorry," the patron asked,"is the tip included?"

"No, it's not," Andy answered.

"Why is the gratuity line crossed out?", he replied.

"Ask Brian", was the answer.

So I strode up to the gentleman, standing by table with his colleagues. Andy shuffled a few paces back, and it seemed every single server and busperson was within twenty feet of the table for the penultimate question.

"Don't you work for tips?" the gentleman brazenly asked.

"Yes, I do. However, you have treated me so poorly this evening I would rather not accept any gratuity. I appreciate you dining with us and hope you appreciate my service. Good night." And we walked out.

To this day, I still feel a twinge of regret that I let a few a-holes shatter my polished professional demeanor. But damn it felt good. AND I drank for free at the bar that night!

[DLB]

I am not sure I would have went as far as not accepting the tip.

[zoramargolis]

In the late 1960's, I was a server at Top of the Gate, the bar/restaurant upstairs from the Village Gate night club on Bleecker St. in Greenwich Village. Jazz musicians like Bill Evans, Gary Burton, Junior Mance and Toshiko Akiyoshi played at Top of the Gate--there was no cover charge, and people could sit at the bar or at a table, have a drink or a few, a sandwich, burger or a full meal and listen to the music. The music was great, but the tips varied a lot--Junior Mance, with his uptempo, energetic style brought in people who came to have fun, ordered lots of drinks and tipped accordingly. Bill Evans was the worst as far as tips went. He would almost nod out over the keyboard, playing slow, contemplative stuff and people would sit and listen all evening nursing one drink.

One night (I don't recall who was playing that night), a party of 16 people came in and were seated in my station--pretty much my only table that night. Of course, it was at the station the furthest from the bar. I'm sure the manager gave me that station out of spite, because I had turned him down when he wanted to have sex with me. Their first round of drinks came all at once, but from then on, one person would order a refill or a sandwich, I'd ask around the table if anyone else wanted something. They were too busy talking to respond, or didn't want anything at that moment. Then when I brought the drink or the sandwich, someone else would look at it and say, "Oh, that looks good. I'll have one of those." It went pretty much like that all night--they had me running back and forth for hours. You get the picture. At the end of the night, I presented the check, which was between $150 and $200, and everyone started pulling money from their wallets to pay what they figured their share was. Someone handed me a thick stack of $1 and $5 bills and said "The tip is in there." By the time I had counted the money, the party had all drifted out. They had left me a $5 tip. I saw red and ran down the stairs to Bleecker Street, where the stragglers were walking up the street. I grabbed the closest guy and started screaming at him that I made $1 an hour and had busted my ass all evening and he and his friends had stiffed me. He protested mildly that he had left a tip, even if his friends hadn't. "I don't care. You cough up some money and collect from them later!" I was a mad woman. I think he pulled a ten dollar bill out of his wallet, gave it to me and ran. I know that if I had gone to the manager/maitre d' for support, he would have just laughed, and if he knew what I had done he would've fired me. I was beyond caring at that point.